davidylan:

who is forcing you? You are only reading my comments because its on a public forum. Do you think i care if you have 20 baby mamas? As long as i can vote to make sure baby mamas no longer get a pass with having a myriad of kids for irresponsible jailbirds with my tax dollars i could care less.

If you want to hump every ho like dogs on heat then be my guest.

*****trying to understand where this discussion changed from abortion to baby mamas***** lol, you do seem to be a bit confused, to say the least (talking about baby mamas but yet being against abortion, lol). there is no harm done with not replying, if you have nothing to say.

davidylan:

Not a smart read on my comment at all. Obviously married couples have plenty of s[i]e[/i]x... they dont do so just to have kids but to have fun. the difference is that in the case of an accident, the resulting child is born into an environment conducive to raising him/her. In a situation where 2 knuckleheads who are barely adults themselves are just knocking themselves around... what do we do with the resulting "accident"? Resort to murder (which i support rather than having another unwanted mouth to grovel at the teat of the taxpayer while the irresponsible creators get to abdicate their responsibilities that is a result of their own actions)?

Deductions:
1. Premarital sex is wrong.
2. In extreme cases sex is allowed between couples who intend to get married, thus already looking forward to having kids.

May I ask you this question: since accidents are part of life and can't be predicted, should sex be taken into consideration among married couples or couples who are engaged, only when the situation is good enough to raise a possible kid?

I'm asking this because there are lots of couples around who are still students or where one of them is still a student. Other couples might have gotten engaged or married even without a solid financial background, simply because of the love they have for one another.

I avoided commenting again after you, MrbrownJAY, countered me. My reason was to avoid derailing the thread, but it appears that the OP is giving her full blessing and more to every tangent introduced to her topic. I don't like free-for-all's because in the end, it's hard to tell what was said.
However, here are my positions:

- Sex outside of marriage is wrong. It is enough that it is wrong because God said so, but if God is an annoyance to any of you guys, then consider the issue at hand as one reason it's not good.

- Sex is for more than just procreation. Two people who belong without reserve to each other can find the most amazing pleasure and bonding in it.

- Abortion for convenience is irresponsible and wrong. It's a very strange and curious thing to say that below 4 weeks, the "thing" in the womb is not human and is a problem of any kind. How does the human get in the womb at 4 weeks? If an orange seed is the progenitor of the orange tree, destroying it amounts to destroying the orange tree with all that that means.

- It is not right that one person should exclude their partner's right of involvement in decision-making as touching abortion for any reason. This is because the child is not more the woman's because she has to carry, birth and nurse it. She wouldn't have to do anything if the man's sperm did not form a unit with her egg.

- Finally, rather than take issue with the Christian for protesting his views, I think the unbeliever should prove his own standing to be right and correct. I am a Christian and as such am fully persuaded that pre- and extra-marital sex are wrong, as are abortion for convenience and exclusion of a partner's opinion in the decision for an abortion. However, I'm not assuming the right to make any decisions for anyone. My place is to tell what I know to be God's stand on the issue. And the place of the hearer is to do with what they are told whatever they wish but with full understanding of and readiness for the consequences of either obedience or disobedience.

Abortion is wrong!!!!

It is never the sole decision of the woman if she does wants to keep the pregnancy or not. Her sole decision is saying no to sex.

There is nothing like pro-choice. It's either pro-life or pro-death.

queensmith: Of course not! Any woman that makes such a decision solely on the input of a man is very stupid for doing so. It is her body, she is solely responsible for it, the man is there by choice and can decide to skip anytime. A woman cannot chose whether she wants to be present during the pregnancy or childbirth. Women need to wise up to these things

If the man cant have a say in whether the child should be born, Then can he be forced to pay Child support for a child he never wanted or that was the mothers idea?

the part i don't get is sex being a recreation especially among the unmarried.

how can you not pay (child support) for a recreational activity?

dayokanu:

If the man cant have a say in whether the child should be born, Then can he be forced to pay Child support for a child he never wanted or that was the mothers idea?

Yes, he will be forced to pay big time. Thanks to the system, your pay will be garnished before hitting your debit account

Ihedinobi: I avoided commenting again after you, MrbrownJAY, countered me. My reason was to avoid derailing the thread, but it appears that the OP is giving her full blessing and more to every tangent introduced to her topic. I don't like free-for-all's because in the end, it's hard to tell what was said.
However, here are my positions:
- Sex outside of marriage is wrong. It is enough that it is wrong because God said so, but if God is an annoyance to any of you guys, then consider the issue at hand as one reason it's not good.

pls educate yourself......many highly respected men of that same Bible (and common men) had s.ex with their mistresses/concubines/sex slaves and harems (all women that they were NOT married to), and the bible saw absolutely nothing wrong with that. so if THEY could do it, i see no reason why you can sit here and tell us all that we cant, lol! whats good for the goose, is even better for the gander.

- Abortion for convenience is irresponsible and wrong. It's a very strange and curious thing to say that below 4 weeks, the "thing" in the womb is not human and is a problem of any kind. How does the human get in the womb at 4 weeks? If an orange seed is the progenitor of the orange tree, destroying it amounts to destroying the orange tree with all that that means.

you are either for or against abortion.....and let each and everyone decide why what where or when they should decide to have one or not. saying that it is ok to have one "for some reasons and not others" makes you sound as an hypocrite (no disrespect). why should your views be any more right than the person who wants to have that said abortion?!

- Finally, rather than take issue with the Christian for protesting his views, I think the unbeliever should prove his own standing to be right and correct. I am a Christian and as such am fully persuaded that pre- and extra-marital sex are wrong, as are abortion for convenience and exclusion of a partner's opinion in the decision for an abortion. However, I'm not assuming the right to make any decisions for anyone. My place is to tell what I know to be God's stand on the issue. And the place of the hearer is to do with what they are told whatever they wish but with full understanding of and readiness for the consequences of either obedience or disobedience.

when christians such as yourself pick up only what is beneficial to you (from that said Bible) then i have to voice my concern. you either take the bible for ALL ITS WORTH or nothing....but dont just pick what fits your selfish agenda, disregarding the rest.
when was the last time you stoned someone to death, like the bible clearly tells you to do? when was the last time you murdered someone, like the bible clearly tells you to do? when was the last time women kept their mouth shut in church, like the Bible clearly tells them to do? why do you braid your hair, since the bible is clearly against the act? why are you wearing make up and jewellery, since the bible is clearly against it? why are you wearing linen wool, since the bible is clearly against it? why are women trying to be on equal ground with men, since the bible clearly tells them that they aint?! etc etc etc........and yet here you are, coming here on NL trying to tell people how to live a righteous life, bringing that same bible as a reference, lol!

btw: check EXODUS 21:22-23 from the OT to understand clearly that a foetus was NEVER considered a person by the bible. duh!

MRbrownJAY:

pls educate yourself......many highly respected men of that same Bible (and common men) had s.ex with their mistresses/concubines/sex slaves and harems (all women that they were NOT married to), and the bible saw absolutely nothing wrong with that. so if THEY could do it, i see no reason why you can sit here and tell us all that we cant, lol! whats good for the goose, is even better for the gander.

First off, which men? Second, how come you say the Bible saw nothing wrong with it?

MRbrownJAY:
you are either for or against abortion.....and let each and everyone decide why what where or when they should decide to have one or not. saying that it is ok to have one "for some reasons and not others" makes you sound as an hypocrite (no disrespect). why should your views be any more right than the person who wants to have that said abortion?!

lol... If I were to stand unqualifyingly for this or that, YOU would label me an extremist. I did not lose my need for and faulty of reason upon becoming a Christian, in fact, I gained it.
My views should be more right if they're backed by a higher authority than theirs.

MRbrownJAY:
when christians such as yourself pick up only what is beneficial to you (from that said Bible) then i have to voice my concern. you either take the bible for ALL ITS WORTH or nothing....but dont just pick what fits your selfish agenda, disregarding the rest.
when was the last time you stoned someone to death, like the bible clearly tells you to do? when was the last time you murdered someone, like the bible clearly tells you to do? when was the last time women kept their mouth shut in church, like the Bible clearly tells them to do? why do you braid your hair, since the bible is clearly against the act? why are you wearing make up and jewellery, since the bible is clearly against it? why are you wearing linen wool, since the bible is clearly against it? why are women trying to be on equal ground with men, since the bible clearly tells them that they aint?! etc etc etc........and yet here you are, coming here on NL trying to tell people how to live a righteous life, bringing that same bible as a reference, lol!

What constituted you an expert on the meaning of the Bible?

MRbrownJAY:
btw: check EXODUS 21:22-23 from the OT to understand clearly that a foetus was NEVER considered a person by the bible. duh!

Is it my eyes or something? Dude, I don't see any way that Scripture implies that "a woman with child" is carrying something other than a human being.

I'll add to all my answers to your objections that people like you are quick to sling Scripture around to somehow invalidate the Bible's authority. Yet you blatantly disregard the fact that to rightly interpret any text you must be qualified to do so. Each task a given person takes on always demands certain ability at the minimum to qualify the person. Do you possess the minimum qualifications required to rightly interpret the Bible?

Ihedinobi:
First off, which men? Second, how come you say the Bible saw nothing wrong with it?

and yet you want to quote the Bible, when you have no idea of its content?!
this is your first lesson of the day: go and check your bible to realize that MANY had mistresses/concubines/sex slaves and harem (sometimes going into the hundreds). here is one tiny clue......king David!

lol... If I were to stand unqualifyingly for this or that, YOU would label me an extremist. I did not lose my need for and faulty of reason upon becoming a Christian, in fact, I gained it.
My views should be more right if they're backed by a higher authority than theirs.

pls care to show to us all which "higher authority" told you that abortion was ok, on some selfish grounds?!

What constituted you an expert on the meaning of the Bible?

then pls tell us all if the bible said it was ok to do any of the stuff i mentionned, or if it didnt say that murder and stoning was all part of our daily routines.

Is it my eyes or something? Dude, I don't see any way that Scripture implies that "a woman with child" is carrying something other than a human being.

ok let me educate you once again: if a woman get struck and she has a miscarriage, the man should pay a fine. if the lady dies in the same process, the man should pay as a life for a life.
so any smart person would understand that the foetus is not viewed as a human being by the bible, if it was, then it would have been a life for a life too (for that dead foetus/miscarriage) duh!

I'll add to all my answers to your objections that people like you are quick to sling Scripture around to somehow invalidate the Bible's authority. Yet you blatantly disregard the fact that to rightly interpret any text you must be qualified to do so. Each task a given person takes on always demands certain ability at the minimum to qualify the person. Do you possess the minimum qualifications required to rightly interpret the Bible?

MRbrownJAY:

do you think that the people that are having an abortion are clueless? these people know what it takes to properly care for a child /emotionally, physically and financially) and they decide that they care not ready.
why is it so difficult for anyone to understand?

It is this sort of arrogant thinking and absolute disregard for the value of human life that is also found in psychopaths.

you DO have control of the future, as i doubt you can carry a child for 9months, if you consciously do not want to.
let us not even start on what is a human life......there is NOTHING human inside a woman who is less than 4 weeks pregnant, that "thing" doesnt even have a heartbeat yet.

It is interesting that you specifically said four weeks and I'll assume that to you, after four weeks it can be argued that the baby is a human life. Perhaps you may want to tell me -if you know- the percentage of abortions less than 4 weeks because almost all women find out that they are pregnant after 4 weeks have passed. This suggests to me that you know that abortion is actually killing a human being but you will justify it over the because of a 9-month "inconvenience"

no, responsibility is to SOLVE A PROBLEM, however you see fit.....instead of listening to people who would want to PUNISH you for having an acident, by adding another problem into your life (by having this child)

Yeah in the same way, a responsible way to solve Nigeria's unemployment problem is to kill off all the unemployed instead of listening to people who want to punish you for your "accidents" in governance. Yeah solve the problem however you see fit.

Solving a problem is not proof of responsibility, any idiot can solve a problem. It is precisely how you solve a problem that says if you are responsible or not.
The first thing about responsibility is acknowledging the consequences of your actions and not trying to run away from them.

what life exactly are you talking about?

Seriously??

what YOU should explain to us is the sense in forcing people to do what they are not willing to do. if someone wants to have a baby, then let them have it, and if someone doesnt, then let that person do what they believe is right.
people thinking like you is the reason why gazillions of kids are left to be rot at every street lights of 9ja begging for their next meal....or simply used for money rituals.

Nonsense, why don't we solve this problem in the spirit of your warped version of responsibility? Why don't we just "responsibly" go and kill of all the little beggar kids that litter our streets??

People like me are saying avoid the accident in the first place by not creating conditions for it to happen and if you make the mistake, then face it squarely and bear the burden, don't commit murder all because it appears to be the easy way out.

No one is forcing anyone to do what they are unwilling to do. All I am saying is; if you make your choices, then bear the consequences of your choices. Don't kill another human being all because you want a quick fix.

Mr_Anony:
It is this sort of arrogant thinking and absolute disregard for the value of human life that is also found in psychopaths.

and your point is?! you can call me whatever you want, it certainly wont affect or change my views on the subject. this is what I (MBJ) believe, and you can call it whatever you want so long as you let people live their lives......and you focus all your energy on living YOURS righteously.
who do you think you are to try to force people into doing what they are not willing to do? lol!

It is interesting that you specifically said four weeks and I'll assume that to you, after four weeks it can be argued that the baby is a human life. Perhaps you may want to tell me -if you know- the percentage of abortions less than 4 weeks because almost all women find out that they are pregnant after 4 weeks have passed. This suggests to me that you know that abortion is actually killing a human being but you will justify it over the because of a 9-month "inconvenience"

dont misunderstand me, i used 4 weeks just to make you understand that you are calling this "thing" a human being, while it doesnt even have a heartbeat yet. you guys are clearly confused about what a human being is.
again, why do YOU care about the percentages of abortions in this world?! live YOUR life and let others live theirs. if a woman wants to abort a day before she is due to "give birth", then thats HER decision.............and hers SOLELY to make.

Yeah in the same way, a responsible way to solve Nigeria's unemployment problem is to kill off all the unemployed instead of listening to people who want to punish you for your "accidents" in governance. Yeah solve the problem however you see fit.

what has the Nigerian unemployment problem and murder got to do with abortion?! stay on the subject and come up with valid points or dont waste our time with replying nonsense.
here is a clue for you, lol: murder is illegal and against the law, while abortion is perfectly legal in most countries around the world, duh!!!!! if anyone finds himself in a civilized country, then they just need to go to any clinic, et voila!

Solving a problem is not proof of responsibility, any idiot can solve a problem. It is precisely how you solve a problem that says if you are responsible or not.The first thing about responsibility is acknowledging the consequences of your actions and not trying to run away from them

there is a problem, you solve the problem maturely with the very LEGAL tools that are available to you.....and yet, you want to come here and tell us all that this is irresponsible?! you make very little sense! just because YOU dont believe in abortion, does NOT make abortion irresponsible, get your facts right.

Nonsense, why don't we solve this problem in the spirit of your warped version of responsibility? Why don't we just "responsibly" go and kill of all the little beggar kids that litter our streets??

again bringing #?&%£$@* points to this discussion....oh lawd!!!! isnt murder illegal?! i thought so, so the day you have something VALID to say, then bring it to the table, if not, just read the thread and educate yourself in the background. lol!

People like me are saying avoid the accident in the first place by not creating conditions for it to happen and if you make the mistake, then face it squarely and bear the burden, don't commit murder all because it appears to be the easy way out.

people like you want to force and punish people who live their live the way they see fit, by having children they are not WILLING or possibly ABLE to properly care for emotionally, physically or financially for the next 18yrs. people like you are saying:"you make a mistake and therefore you should be punished by life long suffering and while bringing an unwanted child into this world". people like you are saying:"you do a mistake, and shouldnt solve it the way you see fit, but the way bible pushers see fit.....and therefore if a woman is pregnant she MUST have that baby regardless of the consequences"...........people like you are too busy focussing on other people's live that you cant even see that your own life makes no damn sense, yet you are here trying to teach people how to live theirs.

No one is forcing anyone to do what they are unwilling to do. All I am saying is; if you make your choices, then bear the consequences of your choices. Don't kill another human being all because you want a quick fix.

ok so listen to what many people choices are.......are you listening carefully?! ok:
PEOPLE MAKE THE CHOICE OF HAVING AN ABORTION, AND WILL GLADLY BEAR THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR OWN ACTIONS
now go live your life and let them live theirs.

again, abortion is illegal in Nigeria, but there are many civilized countries in this world where it aint.

MrBrownJAY, very brave of you to embrace unreservedly what consequences may lie in store for you. Bravo!!!

Sorry I didn't answer your last comment to me o. I just got a little weary. I wonder if I will eventually. But I can answer one question for you right now. Ironically, it's the question I directed at you and which you refused to answer
I am qualified to interpret the Bible because I have the Spirit of its Author resident and in ascendance in me. Do you? Because if you don't, you really should leave the Bible alone.

^^^^^the only way to be able to maturely shut the mouth of any naive bible pusher is to understand "his weapon"......so since many of you lot talk crap all day everyday, a full knowledge of the Bible is key to educating you on what you are clearly CLUELESS about.

you clearly aint qualified to do anything, if you dont even know the words of that said Bible, and its message!

MRbrownJAY: ^^^^^the only way to be able to maturely shut the mouth of any naive bible pusher is to understand "his weapon"......so since many of you lot talk crap all day everyday, a full knowledge of the Bible is key to educating you on what you are clearly CLUELESS about.

you clearly aint qualified to do anything, if you dont even know the words of that said Bible, and its message!

Ok dude. We're examining the Bible's stand on abortion, right? Now I know of no place in the Bible that goes, "thou shalt not commit abortion". And I know how things like that throw up all kinds of problems for people like you. But the Bible does address abortion. I don't like to argue interpretation with unbelievers because all you keep doing is tell us Christians that we give the Bible meanings that suit our prejudice which in fact is what you do.

The Bible itself says that "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14). It is only God's Own Children Who have His Spirit resident within them and in ascendancy that can see the true meanings of the Scriptures and embrace them. This is not to say that you, not being a Christian, cannot understand the Bible, if you have the ability to reason, you should understand the black and white. It means only that you reject its real spiritual meaning because it doesn't suit you.

Let's take a look at the Scripture you pointed out: Exodus 21:22-23. It goes,

"22 if men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life."

According to you, this means that the child in the womb or the woman's fruit is not a human being. You say that because the punishment for taking a human life is forfeiting your own life. Therefore if the child in the womb were considered to be human, the punishment should have been death as well. I think not.

My counter argument is that a pregnancy is a tricky thing. Statistics that I have come across in the recent past on medical websites and wikipedia say that 50% of all pregnancies result in a miscarriage or spontaneous abortion. Considering that this statistic holds in an age of great advance in medical science and improved healthcare, it is reasonable to assume that in the days when those words were written the incidence of miscarriages were much higher. For this reason, even though fighting men hurting a pregnant woman could result in a miscarriage, there were no certainties that the pregnancy would be carried to term and result in a healthy live birth. This means that there existed a possibility of loss of the pregnancy even without the men hurting the pregnant woman. Also, as someone already mentioned on this thread, even when a pregnant woman is physically abused in hopes of causing a loss of pregnancy, the pregnancy could still remain viable. This means that there is also a chance that it was not the fighting men hurting her that cost the pregnant woman her child.

Given all this which I believe it is reasonable to assume was general knowledge among the Hebrews back then, I submit that that law did not imply that a child in a woman's womb is less than human. Again, my reason is that it would not be fair to kill a man for the loss of a pregnancy that could have occured even without his input or that could have survived despite his input. The law made sense in not punishing a man for a crime he might not have committed.

Now, an abortion is a wilful termination of the pregnancy, the calculated action of causing the loss of the pregnancy. It is not at all like hurting a pregnant woman possibly accidentally while fighting. It is actually a calculated attempt (and usually a successful one) at terminating the life of the child in the womb. It effectively reduces the chances of carrying the pregnancy to live birth to zero and it does so on purpose. That is more like murder than an unplanned miscarriage. I am saying that if you want to carry out an abortion, man, the Bible is not your backing for doing so. The Bible accepts that the thing in the womb is a human child. It is absurd to imagine that somehow a human being comes to exist inside the womb of a woman though it wasn't there for the first few weeks of pregnancy.

Ihedinobi:
Ok dude. We're examining the Bible's stand on abortion, right? Now I know of no place in the Bible that goes, "thou shalt not commit abortion"

that should therefore be the end of the discussion........ the fact that you are trying to make a case, where there is none to make, is highly laughable.

we all can come up with theories on what stuff (that has NO RELATION whatsoever with abortion) meant in the bible. unless you have a clear verse that states that abortion is wrong or a sin, i cant see how you can make a valid point on this matter. but i give you a C- for trying sha!

here are a few verses for you to dwell on:
- Genesis 2:7
- Numbers 31:15-17
- Hosea 9:16
- Hosea 9:14
- Hosea 13:16

MRbrownJAY:

that should therefore be the end of the discussion........ the fact that you are trying to make a case, where there is none to make, is highly laughable.

we all can come up with theories on what stuff (that has NO RELATION whatsoever with abortion) meant in the bible. unless you have a clear verse that states that abortion is wrong or a sin, i cant see how you can make a valid point on this matter. but i give you a C- for trying sha!

here are a few verses for you to dwell on:
- Genesis 2:7
- Numbers 31:15-17
- Hosea 9:16
- Hosea 9:14
- Hosea 13:16

I ignored you earlier because guys like you have proven to be incredibly silly in debate. You tell me where my case ends? Like you know what my point is? That's a nonsensical approach to debate.

Why don't I help you out a bit more? There is no place in the Bible that said, "thou shalt not jump off a cliff" or "thou shalt run from a bear if thou find thyself in the woods with a hungry one about" or "thou shalt not molest children". Therefore all of these are right to do. Oh, there is also no "thou shalt not get shot wrongfully by a policeman", so that's right as well. There is no case for anything if there is no "thou shalt not..." written about it. My guy, that's reasoning with something other than your brains.

I've said before: I do not assume the right to make any decisions for anybody, but I do not consent and in fact I positively reject any effort to use the Bible as a reason for an abortion. If you want to kill the kid in your girl's womb, go right ahead, dude. It's no less wrong. And thank God you said you're cool with the consequences. Now, will you leave me alone? I already did leave you once but you just like the last word so go on and have it and let's all sleep easier tonight (I already do though).

Ihedinobi:

I ignored you earlier because guys like you have proven to be incredibly silly in debate. You tell me where my case ends? Like you know what my point is? That's a nonsensical approach to debate.

Why don't I help you out a bit more? There is no place in the Bible that said, "thou shalt not jump off a cliff" or "thou shalt run from a bear if thou find thyself in the woods with a hungry one about" or "thou shalt not molest children". Therefore all of these are right to do. Oh, there is also no "thou shalt not get shot wrongfully by a policeman", so that's right as well. There is no case for anything if there is no "thou shalt not..." written about it. My guy, that's reasoning with something other than your brains.

I've said before: I do not assume the right to make any decisions for anybody, but I do not consent and in fact I positively reject any effort to use the Bible as a reason for an abortion. If you want to kill the kid in your girl's womb, go right ahead, dude. It's no less wrong. And thank God you said you're cool with the consequences. Now, will you leave me alone? I already did leave you once but you just like the last word so go on and have it and let's all sleep easier tonight (I already do though).

again, these bible pushers coming with BS points to try to make a case.....where there is NONE!
ok let me help educate you a little: if you are going to use the bible to make ANY point, then come with facts OR accept that you have none whatsoever. you are here giving childish reasoning about what is NOT in the bible, and what is "supposedly" wrong, but yet fail to understand that these points are either illegal by man´s law or a sheer act of stoopidity. how can you compare these acts with something VERY LEGAL and VERY WISE as abortion?! and yet you call ME silly?! bwaaaah! pls, if you have no sensible comment to make, then just let it go.

NOBODY is using the bible as a reason for abortion, i am using the bible to show you that what you are saying is flawed on so many levels. do you think we are all ignorant about the Bible and its message?! if you people wouldnt bring the bible in these matters (since thats your only reason for being against it), then no one having an abortion would even mention the bible.

at least we agree on the fact that we should all live our lives the best WE see fit (so long as we dont do anything criminal or against the law).
so go on and have a great life!

perhaps,

@ topic.

but the woman is the one ultimately making the decision, most times.

can he be forced to pay Child support for a child he never wanted or that was the mothers idea?

i guess the lawyers can figure it out if its a problem.