according to the (pagan) christian belief of "original sin",any human after adam born into this world is a sinner,imperfect and destined to hell fire if not baptized and believe in the "blood of Jesus".based on this concept everyone is born a sinner and is imperfect simply because adam disobeyed God and ate the "forbidden" fruit.if adam did not disobey God,me and you would have being born as perfect humans and free of sin.the "sin" of adam has contaminated us all like a plague.if you born a baby today and the baby dies,that baby would be thrown into hell-fire because he is a sinner and born imperfect.the baby must be baptized first ("in the name of the father,and the son and the holy spirit" and then accept Jesus as his "lord and saviour" before visa is granted to heaven!

you are a sinner and imperfect,not because God has given you the will to sin nor because God has given you enough knowledge of good and evil for you to choose.freewill is therefore nonsense!

you have no choice.adam ate that forbidden fruit and "sinned".but you have no choice whether to eat your own "forbidden" fruit and also sin.you are a sinner and your father was a sinner because adam has passed down sin to you.

my sincere question to my christian friends:

if i am a sinner and i am born "imperfect" not because of my actions but because of what adam has committed.if i am a sinner today because adam sinned and i inherited that sin,then who did adam inherit his own sin from and from who did adam inherit his imperfection from that also allowed him to become a sinner?
i become a sinner because i "inherited" sin.i am born imperfect because i "inherited" sin.then who did adam inherit his sinful nature and imperfection from that made him to become what he became? does the ability to commit sin make you are born/created imperfect and gives you a sinful nature that can be passed down from generations to generations? from the example of adam who christians as well as muslims believe was made perfect,the answer is no!but based on "original sin",we are sinners because sin is inherited with imperfection and started through adam.therefore if sin is inherited from imperfect humans,the ability to commit sin is presented by christians as a reason for believing in "original sin".if the ability to commit sin is and indication of sin being inherited,then i must also ask,who did adam with no mother and father inherit his own sin from?adam too had that ability!did adam get it from God?

if adam was perfect and he sinned,my case to you and to God is simply that i refuse to accept the belief in "original sin" because i too has the right to be born perfect and to choose whether to sin or not to sin.and i am born perfect and i choose whether to sin or not to sin which can then make me become a sinner or not a sinner.

if my ability to sin is because i inherited adam's sin,then due to adam's ability to also sin,who did adam inherit his own sin and "imperfection" from?

if the ability to sin is "imperfection" then you must stop accepting adam was made perfect.you must admit that the ability to sin is caused by "imperfection".tell the world that your God has got it wrong somewhere.let us stop pretending as if adam was not made by God.you keep telling us adam sinned and therefore i am born a sinner and you still believe adam was made perfect.if the ability to sin is because a man is born imperfect,then adam must have also being made imperfect by your God!and if you accept that every human being was born perfect and free will determines whether we become sinners or not,then we are not born sinners and there is no "original sin" and therefore we dont need anyone to die to redeem us.

is the christian God imperfect?

as for me,God is perfect and all humans are born perfect and free from sin until you and i decide whether to do good or evil.God made everything good.evil is relative and a choice made not to do good but the opposite of good.if a hindu,buddhist,muslim,christian,jewish baby dies,he is destined for heaven according to islam.but christianity sends babies to hell if they had not being baptized and accepted the "sacrifice of Jesus".i dont need a sacrifice of a human being.

as we can see,the entirety of this concept is devoid of logic or ideas to back it up.its all about the "end justifies the means".the christian must be able to sell his "salvation" case and his case is that you must accept that Jesus died for your sins.if there is no motive for Jesus to die,then there is no case for you to believe.its all missionary work.the work must continue.if you dont accept the "blood sacrifice" then you are doomed.its all a game.he will not tell you that Jesus died for your sins you are accountable for as a result of your actions.if that is the case then just believing would justify even hitler's entry into paradise.he is telling you Jesus died for the sin you inherited from adam.Jesus "died" to clean the catalyst that cause everyone of us to sin:i.e. adam's "sin".

all this story is made up to sell the 'salvation case" and preaching.buy his "original sin",you have sold your soul to him forever.take away "original sin" and expose it,you have destroyed christianity in all its sects and denominations.no "original sin"=no christianity!

paul said all preaching would be vain had Jesus not "died" on the cross! no "crucifixion" no christianity accroding to paul.no "original sin" no need for "crucifxion".take that away,you do away with him threatening you and your babies and generations with hell.


ofcourse i have not discussed whether or not sin can be inherited according to scripture.that is a point the bible contradicts itself on.i will do with the above question,which:if i am a sinner and born imperfect because adam had the ability to sin and he "sinned" and i inherited that sin so i inturn was born a sinner and imperfect,then who did adam inherit his own sin and imperfection from that allowed him to sin? obviously the freewill God has given us makes the belief in "original sin" impossible.but ofcourse he (i.e. the christian) must also believe in freewill because not everyone is christian like him.so he believes in freewill when it suits him and he believes in compulsion and the concept of an imposed sin in your nature (i.e. "original sin" when it also suits him.so therefore its all meant and used to compel you and i to believe in the "blood".

answer that question and we are done!


Major Yeats-Brown, in his "Life of a Bengal Lancer", summarises the Christian Doctrine of the Atonement in just a single sentence:

"NO HEATHEN TRIBE HAS CONCEIVED SO GROTESQUE AN IDEA, INVOLVING AS IT DOES THE ASSUMPTION, THAT MAN WAS BORN WITH A HEREDITARY STAIN UPON HIM: AND THAT THIS STAIN (FOR WHICH HE WAS NOT PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE) WAS TO BE ATONED FOR: AND THAT THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS HAD TO SACRIFICE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO NEUTRALISE THIS MYSTERIOUS CURSE."

please watch this important debate between a christian pastor and a muslim.the video is titled:

"Hassanain Rajabali - Refuting the Original Sin & Crucifixion"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqAy0805dFQ

At least some peeps can think clearly and see these obvious incongruities. Cheers.

@poster

You are a scary fellow. If you need knowledge just ask someone to lecture you instead of unleashing furry against your creator. I have answers to all your question but i can't relate with you because you are really scary.

excoba101:

@poster

You are a scary fellow. If you need knowledge just ask someone to lecture you instead of unleashing furry against your creator. I have answers to all your question but i can't relate with you because you are really scary.

no.i am not unleashing fury against my Creator.i am muslim,alhamdulillah.i do not believe in "original sin" or "crucifixion of Jesus".this thread is meant for you to answer.if the ability to sin means we are born imperfect and with a sinful nature because we inherited a sin,i am simply telling you that adam too had the ability to sin and disobey and you and i (both christians and muslims) believe adam was perfect.if the ability to sin means we inherited sin ("original sin" and are born imperfect with a sinful nature,then every christian must also come to face the reality that adam also had the ability to sin and therefore your christian God must have made adam imperfect and adam inherited his sinful/imperfect/evil nature from your God.do you accept that or would you accept to abandon your belief in "original sin"?you have a choice:you either believe in "original sin" and attribute imperfection to God (blasphemy) or you be ready to respect God and abandon your belief in "original sin",and therefore abandon too the belief in "salvation through human blood" altogether.

if you have "answers",please no need to play "hard to get".present your answers here and now.

thank you.

You're on your own bro.

no.i am not unleashing fury against my Creator.i am muslim,alhamdulillah.i do not believe in "original sin" or "crucifixion of Jesus".this thread is meant for you to answer.if the ability to sin means we are born imperfect and with a sinful nature because we inherited a sin,i am simply telling you that adam too had the ability to sin and disobey and you and i (both christians and muslims) believe adam was perfect.if the ability to sin means we inherited sin ("original sin" and are born imperfect with a sinful nature,then every christian must also come to face the reality that adam also had the ability to sin and therefore your christian God must have made adam imperfect and adam inherited his sinful/imperfect/evil nature from your God.do you accept that or would you accept to abandon your belief in "original sin"?you have a choice:you either believe in "original sin" and attribute imperfection to God (blasphemy) or you be ready to respect God and abandon your belief in "original sin",and therefore abandon too the belief in "salvation through human blood" altogether.

if you have "answers",please no need to play "hard to get".present your answers here and now.

thank you.

Even if i say anything to prove a point you still won't take it .
Muslims claim that Moses is a great prophet and he was before Muhammad, why are you not disbelieving what he wrote about the original sin?

excoba101:


Even if i say anything to prove a point you still won't take it .
Muslims claim that Moses is a great prophet and he was before Muhammad, why are you not disbelieving what he wrote about the original sin?

ok.let me point out something very important in what you said:we should go back to the bible and see what moses wrote.

to break down what you said,there are two points:

1.) we should go to the bible and see what is there on the issue
2.) moses wrote something.


the first point would be enough for me.what moses wrote or did not write is outside the scope of this discussion.accordingly,moses can best be said to be the partial writer of whatever is attributed to him from the bible.

like i said,that is out of our discussion :what who wrote what or did not write.

you are telling me i should believe in what is written in the bible.like i said,that would be enough for me to accept.whatever you present for me from the bible i will embrace it and examine it on this particular topic.so please go ahead and present what you have from the bible.we should note that we are drifting from reason and logic and now basing our discussion on the bible to prove whether there is anything called "original sin".

there is no problem in that.that is good for me.please present anything from the bible,whether you believe it is from Moses or Jesus or anyone.present anything that can prove a point on this subject.please go ahead.i beg of you!!!

Before i say anything. What is Muslim theory/explanation for the original sin

excoba101:

Before i say anything. What is Muslim theory/explanation for the original sin

there is nothing called "original sin" in islam.we believe it only exists in the imagination of people.

The concept of the "original sin" is not to be understood so superficially as we have been led to understand it. The garden of Eden drama was meant to be understood as a metaphor for something of deep spiritual truth that happened to mankind as a whole. The literal interpretation of the Eden tale is the source of the confusion of most people trying to make sense of the message of that story. I think people should start looking beyond the literal interpretations of these scriptural stories  to have a better understanding of deep spiritual messagees being conveyed in them.

Jenwitemi:

The concept of the "original sin" is not to be understood so superficially as we have been led to understand it. The garden of Eden drama was meant to be understood as a metaphor for something of deep spiritual truth that happened to mankind as a whole. The literal interpretation of the Eden tale is the source of the confusion of most people trying to make sense of the message of that story. I think people should start looking beyond the literal interpretations of these scriptural stories to have a better understanding of deep spiritual messagees being conveyed in them.

i believe your post is really very important.most people think for example Adam was a sinner.according to shia islam and the Quran itself,Adam did not commit a sin.Adam's disobedience did not amount to a sin.even if we go to the bible itself,the first time the word sin is mentioned is not in reference to Adam eating from the tree.the word sin is first used in the bible when cain killed abel.

if we are to understand the garden incident very well,we will see that man's stay on earth is a decree by God and Adam eating from the tree was inconsequential.it was only meant to set an example of who the enemy is to humanity i.e. satan.


in this light,the below lecture in English is very helpful in understanding what happened in the garden and why Adam is infallible:

part 1:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAUj2hwEa_I

part 2:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0bYB6pb_2s

Original sin or not: The soul that sinneth shall die. Simple.

Romans 5:12.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:17-21
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

aletheia:

Original sin or not: The soul that sinneth shall die. Simple.

Romans 5:12.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:17-21
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

do you realize you're quoting contradictory verses? ezekiel 18 and the verses from romans you presented above.

@OP: I think you are not thinking straight here, or at least you haven't set out your ideas in a way that shows that you are.

Just 2 points for now. I may return.

1. Where is it stated in the Bible that babies will go to hell if they die? I need references and not hear-say. Thanks.

2. Since you were born and Adam was not, does it make sense to ask who Adam inherited sin from?

I have more to say on this. Here again,

And (remember) when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed (or from Adam’s loin his offspring) and made them testify as to themselves (saying): "Am I not your Lord?" They said: "Yes! We testify," lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection: "Verily, we have been unaware of this." (Qur’an 7:172)

The Quran states that all humans are born muslim, and that they cannot say they didn't know that because they have been made to TESTIFY to this even within Adam's loins.

Narrated Abu Huraira : Allah’s Apostle said, "Every child is born with a true faith of Islam (i.e. to worship none but Allah Alone) but his parents convert him to Judaism, Christianity or Magainism,  as an animal delivers a perfect baby animal. Do you find it mutilated?" Then Abu Huraira recited the holy verses: "The pure Allah's Islamic nature (true faith of Islam) (i.e. worshipping none but Allah) with which He has created human beings. No change let there be in the religion of Allah (i.e. joining none in worship with Allah). That is the straight religion (Islam) but most of men know, not."

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Hadith 441. (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/023.sbt.html#002.023.441)

Pray tell, how is this different from the idea of the Original Sin? 

Christians believe Adam sinned and all have inherited it whether we want it or not.
Muslims believe Adam made a covenant to Allah and all have inherited it with the consequences of breaching the covenant, whether we want it or not

I hope someone  can understand the point I'm making here. I may be back.

LagosShia:

Adam's disobedience did not amount to a sin.

All disobedience is Sin. So you are telling us that al-ilah does not consider disobedience to be a sin? Interesting. So you can go ahead and disobey your god because it is not reckoned to you a sin? How convenient. No wonder the biggest looters in Nigeria are Muslims like IBB and Abacha.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

LagosShia:

do you realize you're quoting contradictory verses? ezekiel 18 and the verses from romans you presented above.

Nothing contradictory here. It's just that your religion and what you have been taught blinds you to what is plainly written.
#1. Sin entered the world through the disobedience of one man---Adam
#2. All descendants of Adam inherited the sin nature.
#3. Everyone has sinned, regardless of their "good" deeds.
#4. The penalty for sin is death: "The soul that sinneth shall die"
#5. Since everyone has sinned; everyone will dies,
#6. Unless, you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord:

For just as sin and death passed over the world through the disobedience of Adam, in like manner righteousness and life is given to many through the obedience of Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

There is no name given under heaven by which men are saved except the Name of Jesus. It is not Muhammad; if it were so then Muhammad would be alive but we all know that he is dead and long decayed in the grave but Jesus is alive today. Ask yourself these questions; Why is Jesus the Messiah and not Muhammad? Why is Jesus alive and Muhammad dead?

Since you read the bible; read it and compare Jesus and Muhammad.

@ALETHEIA
You can try to drift from the topic.you still have to answer my question in the thread opener:if according to christianity i sin because i was born with a sinful nature and imperfection because i inherited sin from adam,,how do you explain your belief that was created adam's perfect by God but adam still had the same ability to sin like me and according to you he still went on to sin?from who did adam inherit his own sin and imperfection?did he inherit it from your god?you can read the first post of the thread very well before you answer and think very well.


BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS ON THE "INHERITANCE OF SIN" OR THE NON-INHERITANCE:


20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. (ezekiel 18)


In the new testament children are sinless and pure:
14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.(mark 10:14)

In contradiction,the new testament contradicts the above old testament verses and also itself:

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.(romans 5)


22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive[b](1corinthians 15)[/b]

Other verses that imply sin is inherited and the word “b*astard” in the bible:

2A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.(deuteronomy 23:2)

6And a bastard shall dwell in Ashdod, and I will cut off the pride of the Philistines.(zechariah 9)

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.(hebrews 12)

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.(psalm 51)

3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.(psalm 58)

InesQor:


@OP: I think you are not thinking straight here, or at least you haven't set out your ideas in a way that shows that you are.

Just 2 points for now. I may return.

1. Where is it stated in the Bible that babies will go to hell if they die? I need references and not hear-say. Thanks.

[b]"Unbaptized infants
Augustine believed that the only definitive destinations of souls are heaven and hell. He concluded that unbaptized infants go to hell as a consequence of original sin.[20][21] The Latin Church Fathers who followed Augustine adopted his position, which became a point of reference for Latin theologians in the Middle Ages.[22] In the later mediaeval period, some theologians continued to hold Augustine's view, others held that unbaptized infants suffered no pain at all: unaware of being deprived of the beatific vision, they enjoyed a state of natural, not supernatural happiness. Starting around 1300, unbaptized infants were often said to inhabit the "limbo of infants".[23] The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1261 declares: "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,'[24] allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism." But the theory of Limbo, while it "never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium ,  remains ,  a possible theological hypothesis".[25]

Augustine's formulation of original sin was popular among Protestant reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, and also, within Roman Catholicism, in the Jansenist movement, but this movement was declared heretical by the Roman Catholic Church.[26]

Like other traditional church doctrines, original sin has been denied or reinterpreted by various modern Christian denominations (such as the Unity Church) and theologians (such as Matthew Fox). Under such different views, Augustine's example of newborn babies would suffer the temptation to sin from their nature, but would not bear any guilt because of not actually committing sins of their own.
[/b]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin#Extraterrestrial_beings_and_original_sin

[b]

2. Since you were born and Adam was not, does it make sense to ask who Adam inherited sin from?

no,it does not.if i am a sinner,and imperfect, born of and with a sinful nature,because i inherited a sin,then adam who was made perfect,still had the ability to sin and became imperfect according to you.if adam was perfect and he sinned,then there is no original sin because i can also be born perfect and still be able to sin because of free will and my ability to sin.if the ability to sin is imperfection,and present because of a sinful nature or the sin inherited then you have to tell us where adam got his imperfection and sinful nature from.where did he inherit his sinful nature from?you can only prove that man inherited sin and there is something called "original sin" because of man's ability to sin.adam had the same ability so where did adam get that imperfection and sin from?

InesQor:

I have more to say on this. Here again,

The Quran states that all humans are born muslim, and that they cannot say they didn't know that because they have been made to TESTIFY to this even within Adam's loins.
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Hadith 441. (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/023.sbt.html#002.023.441)

Pray tell, how is this different from the idea of the Original Sin? 

Christians believe Adam sinned and all have inherited it whether we want it or not.
Muslims believe Adam made a covenant to Allah and all have inherited it with the consequences of breaching the covenant, whether we want it or not

I hope someone  can understand the point I'm making here. I may be back.

islam is telling you,you were born a muslim and pure.it is telling you you were born innocent and free from sin.it is telling you that the loins we are made from testify that God alone made us.


it still does not tell you that you are condemned because of a sin you inherited.islam is still telling you it is in your own hands to choose good and evil,heaven or hell.islam is telling you to choose the right path and remain on it because you were born on it.islam says you were born good.

christianity is telling me that i was born with a defect called "original sin" and i need "blood" in order that this defect maybe corrected.you are condemning me for what i did not do.islam is telling me not to condemn myself with my actions i.e. evil actions contrary to my good nature.

i know perfectly what you are saying.it is not a secret that islam says:we are born with "original perfection" and we should act to protect it.

christianity says:we are born with a defect called "original sin" and we will be condemned based on another man's mis-doing because we are born with a sinful nature.

even a blind man can see the difference.it is left for you to choose.

@LagosShia:

I am hoping you are capable of comprehending my simple questions?

1. I asked where the Bible condemned babies to hell except they get born again, and what do you return to turn up? One man's opinions? I asked for Bible verses, so either acceot your foul and eat your words, or else prove it from the Bible.

2. I dont see how the circuitous gist in your response to my question 2 is adequate, again.

3. I believe my point has been made in post (3).

InesQor:

@LagosShia:

I am hoping you are capable of comprehending my simple questions?

1. I asked where the Bible condemned babies to hell except they get born again, and what do you return to turn up? One man's opinions? I asked for Bible verses, so either acceot your foul and eat your words, or else prove it from the Bible.

the concept of "original sin" itself is an opinion.there is nowhere in the bible where "original sin" is mentioned likewise pagan beliefs like "trinity" and "divine sonship".so for you to know where babies are condemned to hell,you have to go and read the opinions of men that formulated the concept and what they have to say.it is not my fault your beliefs are not found in the bible or that Jesus never preached them.we have being telling you that for centuries.

2. I dont see how the circuitous gist in your response to my question 2 is adequate, again.

3. I believe my point has been made in post (3).

i believe i have replied to your points adequately.those with conscience will judge and see the truth.i dont have to convince you or anyone.as far as i'm concerned no christian has even ventured to answer my question in the opening post because you can never do that except by renouncing your so called "original sin".

@LagosShia: Ok. Have fun.

aletheia:

For just as sin and death passed over the world through the disobedience of Adam, in like manner righteousness and life is given to many through the obedience of Jesus Christ. There is no name given under heaven by which men are saved except the Name of Jesus. It is not Muhammad; if it were so then Muhammad would be alive but we all know that he is dead and long decayed in the grave but Jesus is alive today. Ask yourself these questions; Why is Jesus the Messiah and not Muhammad? Why is Jesus alive and Muhammad dead?

Since you read the bible; read it and compare Jesus and Muhammad.

One should Laugh at your usually rush to worship a man that had to use the Jons' every now and then. A man that was Hungry and did not know when the day of Judgment is, a man that cursed a tree because he was hungry, a man that insulted his elders at the slightest Provocation, an even insulted his Mum by calling her woman, No I prefer worshiping the ALLAH, who neither sleeps nor fall hungry nor do things below his Glory.

vedaxcool:

No I prefer worshiping the ALLAH, who neither sleeps nor fall hungry nor do things below his Glory.

Is anyone preventing you from worshiping your al-ilah?
You don't even know why you are a Muslim except that you were born as one.
Aside from that, you can't even give any coherent reason why anyone should follow your prophet.
The only way you know to convince is to attack Christians for you are unable to show why Islam is better.
But then Islam has always been afraid of the Gospel of the Risen Christ.

I am giving you a chance to convince me. If you can answer me this question. . .

Where is the gate that Dhul Qarnayn built?

This is a straightforward question; so no dodging or insults, just answer: "It is in. . ."

aletheia:

Is anyone preventing you from worshiping your al-ilah?
You don't even know why you are a Muslim except that you were born as one.
Aside from that, you can't even give any coherent reason why anyone should follow your prophet.
The only way you know to convince is to attack Christians for you are unable to show why Islam is better.
But then Islam has always been afraid of the Gospel of the Risen Christ.

you can take a good look in the forum,you will find out that this is not the only thread i started to convince you about islam.if you also go through the threads designed to attck islam,you will see valuable information in the posts i made to refute your lies and hatred against islam.the problem is with christians who believe they can belittle islam with psychological tricks and games and twisting of words with no facts and logic.

let it be clear to you and your kinds (as would be evident below),do not talk and attack islam simply because you find yourself into christianity.dont base your objections to islam on your ignorance and lack of knowledge.

let me telll you that with your likes,anything you object to about islam is only due to your ignorance.

I am giving you a chance to convince me. If you can answer me this question. . .

Where is the gate that Dhul Qarnayn built?

This is a straightforward question; so no dodging or insults, just answer: "It is in. . ."

The Iron Gates had been found!

seek knowledge and you will find it in abundance.i am not asking you to believe in islam on the basis of blind faith.Imam Ali said "there is enough light for those who want to see"

you can see everything you want to see on the gates of dhul-qarnain,here:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/iron_gates.htm

LagosShia:

if according to christianity i sin because i was born with a sinful nature and imperfection because i inherited sin from adam,,how do you explain your belief that was created adam's perfect by God but adam still had the same ability to sin  like me and according to you he still went on to sin?

Understand, firstly that there is a difference between you and Adam. Adam was created in the image and likeness of God. He was like unto the angels only just a little lower positionally.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Gen 1:27)  
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: (Psa 8:5-6)

God placed Adam in a position of authority and dominion over the whole earth.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Gen 1:28)

Adam willfully and deliberately choose to disobey God. If Adam wanted to he would not have sinned.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1Ti 2:14)
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. (Gen 3:12)

If Adam had not sinned, he wouldn't have died, neither would his sons or descendants have died.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.(Gen 2:17)
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
(Gen 3:19)

Once Adam sinned, he became flawed, he was no longer an image and likeness of God.

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: (Gen 5:3)

We on the other hand are descendants, a son of Adam; we bear the flawed image and likeness of Adam just like our ancestor Seth.
Whereas Adam before he disobeyed could have chosen not to sin, we on the other hand cannot chose not to sin, no matter how hard we try to avoid sin.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (Rom 7:18-19)

God's view of sin is not man's view of sin. Men think that if they do good deeds like giving alms, fasting, praying, going on Hajj, then they can get by. But God disagrees. No good act by any man no matter how big can balance or cancel out the smallest sin. . .this is a hard message for a lot of Muslims, but this message will save you if you believe.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isa 64:6)

But God plainly reveals that the blot of sin is beyond deeds, it goes to even our thoughts and the attitudes of our hearts: thus the one who is angry with his brother is as guilty has the one who commits murder; the one who looks at a woman lustfully is as guilty as the one who commits adultery by sleeping with her.

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mat 5:21-22)

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Mat 5:28)

The standard that Jesus Christ requires from his disciples is the highest of all. That there are many who profess to be Christians or go to church does not make them so, for being a follower of Jesus is not the same as reciting the Shahada or abstaining from certain things, it is a relationship with the Living God who commands his children to be holy even as he is holy.

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (1Pe 1:15-16)
Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God. (Lev 20:7)

At this point: let me ask you: what does it mean to be holy in Islam? Can you explain?

There are very few true Christians in the world today.---"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? "

Jesus said this:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.(Mat 7:14)
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. (Luk 13:24)
Jesus holds out an invitation to you:
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20)
O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. (Psa 34:

It is not too late to accept his invitation before the great and terrible Day of Judgment comes---for there is no repentance in the grave. And God makes clear that:

All men have sinned: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Rom 3:23)

All men are under the penalty of death and Judgement: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Heb 9:27)

God has already declared the verdict and made propitiation for our sins: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

Only Jesus can save you from the penalty of sin: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. (John 14:7)

[b]Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wildernessHeb 3:7-

But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
(Act 3:18-26)

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Act 17:30-31)[/b]

LagosShia:

The Iron Gates had been found!

The question I asked was simple, necessitating a straightforward answer:

aletheia:

I am giving you a chance to convince me. If you can answer me this question. . .

Where is the gate that Dhul Qarnayn built?

This is a straightforward question; so no dodging or insults, just answer: "It is in. . ."

Please answer directly. . .not posting links. Where is it? You stated it had been found. Where? Such a simple question. Simple answer needed.

aletheia:

The question I asked was simple, necessitating a straightforward answer:

Please answer directly. . .not posting links. Where is it? You stated it had been found. Where? Such a simple question. Simple answer needed.

"the gates of dhul-qarnain" found:

", near Derbend in Central Asia, Hissar District, about 150 miles southeast of Bukhara. A very narrow defile, with overhanging rocks, occurs on the main route between Turkestan and India: latitude 38 degrees North; longitude 67 degrees East. It is now called in Turkish Buzghol-Khana (Goat-house), but was formerly known as the Iron Gate (Arabic, Bab al Hadid; Persian, Dar-i-ahani; Chinese T'i-men-kuan). There is no iron gate there now, but there was one in the seventh century, when the Chinese traveller Hiouen Tsiang saw it on his journey to India. He saw two folding gates cased with iron hung with bells. Nearby is a lake named Iskandar Kul, connecting the locality with Alexandar the Great. We know from history that Alexandar, after his conquest of Persia and before his journey to India, visited Sogdiana (Bukhara) and Maracanda (Samarqand). We also know from Al Maqdis (or al Mudaddas), the Arab traveller and geographer, who wrote about A.H. 375 (A.C. 985-6) that the Abbasi Caliph al Wathiq (842-846 A.C.) sent out a mission to Central Asia to report on this Iron Gate. They found the defile 150 yards wide: on two jambs, made with bricks of iron welded together with molten lead, were hung two huge gates, which were kept closed. Nothing could correspond more exactly with the description in 18:95-96."

aletheia:

Understand, firstly that there is a difference between you and Adam. Adam was created in the image and likeness of God. He was like unto the angels only just a little lower positionally.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Gen 1:27)
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: (Psa 8:5-6)

God placed Adam in a position of authority and dominion over the whole earth.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Gen 1:28)

Adam willfully and deliberately choose to disobey God. If Adam wanted to he would not have sinned.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1Ti 2:14)
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. (Gen 3:12)

If Adam had not sinned, he wouldn't have died, neither would his sons or descendants have died.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.(Gen 2:17)
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
(Gen 3:19)

Once Adam sinned, he became flawed, he was no longer an image and likeness of God.

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: (Gen 5:3)

We on the other hand are descendants, a son of Adam; we bear the flawed image and likeness of Adam just like our ancestor Seth.
Whereas Adam before he disobeyed could have chosen not to sin, we on the other hand cannot chose not to sin, no matter how hard we try to avoid sin.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (Rom 7:18-19)

God's view of sin is not man's view of sin. Men think that if they do good deeds like giving alms, fasting, praying, going on Hajj, then they can get by. But God disagrees. No good act by any man no matter how big can balance or cancel out the smallest sin. . .this is a hard message for a lot of Muslims, but this message will save you if you believe.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isa 64:6)

But God plainly reveals that the blot of sin is beyond deeds, it goes to even our thoughts and the attitudes of our hearts: thus the one who is angry with his brother is as guilty has the one who commits murder; the one who looks at a woman lustfully is as guilty as the one who commits adultery by sleeping with her.

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mat 5:21-22)

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Mat 5:28)

The standard that Jesus Christ requires from his disciples is the highest of all. That there are many who profess to be Christians or go to church does not make them so, for being a follower of Jesus is not the same as reciting the Shahada or abstaining from certain things, it is a relationship with the Living God who commands his children to be holy even as he is holy.

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (1Pe 1:15-16)
Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God. (Lev 20:7)

At this point: let me ask you: what does it mean to be holy in Islam? Can you explain?

There are very few true Christians in the world today.---"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? "

Jesus said this:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.(Mat 7:14)
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. (Luk 13:24)
Jesus holds out an invitation to you:
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20)
O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. (Psa 34:

It is not too late to accept his invitation before the great and terrible Day of Judgment comes---for there is no repentance in the grave. And God makes clear that:

All men have sinned: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Rom 3:23)

All men are under the penalty of death and Judgement: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Heb 9:27)

God has already declared the verdict and made propitiation for our sins: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

Only Jesus can save you from the penalty of sin: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. (John 14:7)

[b]Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wildernessHeb 3:7-

But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
(Act 3:18-26)

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Act 17:30-31)[/b]

i need not a story teller.ive read all the verses you posted.just go to the point and answer my question in the thread opener if you can.

^^Read it again slowly. I have answered your question. Always in a haste as if Satan is chasing you, but then he is.

There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked. (Isaiah 57:21)

LagosShia:

"the gates of dhul-qarnain" found:
There is no iron gate there now

This singular sentence proves that the Qur'an is unreliable and false.

aletheia:

^^Read it again slowly. I have answered your question. Always in a haste as if Satan is chasing you, but then he is.

no.you haven't!
are you trying to dose with with false beliefs?"read it slowly"!is that not blind indoctrination?

This singular sentence proves that the Qur'an is unreliable and false.

ok.i hear you.

its like:where is Jesus?or at least where is his remains buried?

answer:he has ascended to heaven.he is not present today but used to be on earth.

reply:that singular sentence proves Jesus was never on earth


thanks for your brilliance!!!