olu_kenzo :


I'm sorry ma, you can't claim to know so. Have you heard of Efunsetan Aniwura? Is that her name now? There was this Yoruba woman who volunteered and went as a spy to "Igbo" land when her people were being enslaved left right and center by some scary looking neighbours. I am still looking for the to link. I hope I didn't read it in a book!

that was not Efunsetan that was Moremi and she did not go to Igboland she went to Dahomey, present day Benin republic!

even today, a man from one part of yoruba land cannot enter and start making claims of entitlement towards titles or royalty because he's a settler, regardless of being 'yoruba' and I know the same is true for igbos. Once you leave your clan's territory, you're a settler. Same is true among the Hausa, Bini, Ijaw etc. Even today in Igboland there are Arochukwu in many villages who do not take part in cultural festivities because they're not one of 'the people' that own the land. There has been a lot more effort to create a pan-yoruba identity than to create a pan-igbo identity so there's today more cohesion in the SW, but this is new, contemporary, and the work of men who lived in the past 100 years. Awolowo, Crowder and so forth.

Oladiran: that was not Efunsetan that was Moremi and she did not go to Igboland she went to Dahomey, present day Benin republic!

Yes, you are right. Sorry for the mix up Scholars have cause to believe it might have been the same Igbo people. I am yet to find the link. I apologize once again for the mix up.

Wikipedia actually sites it, but it is agreed that that site is not the most irrefutable of sources. All the same:

Excerpts from the oral records Of Ife
The Olori Moremi hailed from Ile Ife, a kingdom that is said to have been at war with an adjoining tribe who were known to them as the Forest people ( Ìgbò in the Yoruba language, though the said tribe is believed by scholars to have had no relation to the contemporary Ìgbòs of modern Nigeria). Scores of Ife citizens were being enslaved by these people, and because of this they were generally regarded with disdain by the Yoruba city-states.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moremi_Ajasoro

olu_kenzo :


Yes, you are right. Sorry for the mix up Scholars have cause to believe it might have been the same Igbo people. I am yet to find the link. I apologize once again for the mix up.

Wikipedia actually sites it, but it is agreed that that site is not the most irrefutable of sources. All the same:

I seriously doubt doubt the Igbo pple reffered to in wiki means Igbo pple of the east! those two words do not mean d same and they are nt even pronouced d same! The problem is that I have not really heard of any Igbo person telling us the meaning of Igbo(I actualy do not know the meaning of Yoruba too )

olu_kenzo :


Yes, you are right. Sorry for the mix up Scholars have cause to believe it might have been the same Igbo people. I am yet to find the link. I apologize once again for the mix up.

Wikipedia actually sites it, but it is agreed that that site is not the most irrefutable of sources. All the same:

Oladiran:
I seriously doubt doubt the Igbo pple reffered to in wiki means Igbo pple of the east! those two words do not mean d same and they are nt even pronouced d same! The problem is that I have not really heard of any Igbo person telling us the meaning of Igbo(I actualy do not know the meaning of Yoruba too )

From the accents on the 'Ìgbò', which I guess is the Yoruba pronunciation, that's the way 'Igbo'(as in the Igbo tribe) is natively pronounced in Igbo, with falling accents.

Oladiran: dont crucify d OP! at least he s right to some extent. There was actually nothing like Yoruba language! we had and still have things like Egba, Ondo, Ijesha, Oyo, Ijebu languages and nothing like Yoruba language. Common Yoruba language started with the work of Samuel Ajayi Crowther! But that notwithstanding, all the 'Yoruba' languages were and are still quite understandable among themselves

If there's nothing like Yoruba language then there's nothing like English language or French language or Spanish language because these languages have local dialects as well.
As for the Op maybe there was no Igbo before the white man but there was indeed Yoruba and it is more than documented.

It has always been a contentious issue. Maybe the Igbos can tell us that.

Oladiran:
I seriously doubt doubt the Igbo pple reffered to in wiki means Igbo pple of the east! those two words do not mean d same and they are nt even pronouced d same! The problem is that I have not really heard of any Igbo person telling us the meaning of Igbo(I actualy do not know the meaning of Yoruba too )

Yoruba is a fulani name for the people that live in what is now Yoruba land. It is said that the historian was only referring to Oyo people but the name stuck and spread. There are many theories about the name Igbo, though the word means nothing in the igbo language, there are some clans and villages that bare the word. Igbo can also be found in many igbo surnames like Igbokwe which isn't seen in Yoruba.

Ikengawo: Yoruba is a fulani name for the people that live in what is now Yoruba land. It is said that the historian was only referring to Oyo people but the name stuck and spread. There are many theories about the name Igbo, though the word means nothing in the igbo language, there are some clans and villages that bare the word. Igbo can also be found in many igbo surnames like Igbokwe which isn't seen in Yoruba.

That still does not explain why they all trace their origins to Ile Ife and worship the same gods without anyone forcing it on them.
Yes, they fought each other but they prayed to the same gods and spoke the same language shared the same culture. But they did not exist in the posters fertile imagination. Even the English fought each other the same way in the dark ages.

Ikengawo: Yoruba is a fulani name for the people that live in what is now Yoruba land. It is said that the historian was only referring to Oyo people but the name stuck and spread. There are many theories about the name Igbo, though the word means nothing in the igbo language, there are some clans and villages that bare the word. Igbo can also be found in many igbo surnames like Igbokwe which isn't seen in Yoruba.

Yes Sir, Fulanis gave the name Yoruba! But what do they mean by calling the Oyos(as u said) Yorubas? We kno that Kwara is also from them, meaning "place of palm tree"! But what is the meaning of Yoruba?
If u say 'Ofemanus' I thnk dat can be explained! So what is Yoruba apart from the fact dat it refers to some pple?
When I was n school, dere was a boy called Ejiro Elum! wen we askd fo meanng of his names, he told us of Ejiro but of Elum he said it has no meaning, dat it is just a collection of alphabets I doubt if the Fulanis will just throw some jumbled up words to describe something! There must be intention in naming us Yoruba and hence the meaning of dat word!

Aigbofa:

If there's nothing like Yoruba language then there's nothing like English language or French language or Spanish language because these languages have local dialects as well.
As for the Op maybe there was no Igbo before the white man but there was indeed Yoruba and it is more than documented.

Igbo has been known and recorded for several decades before the White man came to the Nigerian polity. The Igbo ethnic group was well documented in slave trade records, accounts and published works by several authors on the Trans-atlantic slave trade from as early as 1600. Igbo was recorded as 'Ibo'. Alternative spellings were 'Ebo', 'Eboe', 'Heebo'.

In the same vein, Yorubas were recorded more as 'Nago', and 'Lukumi', and to a lesser extent 'Yoruba'.

Ikengawo: Yoruba is a fulani name for the people that live in what is now Yoruba land. It is said that the historian was only referring to Oyo people but the name stuck and spread. There are many theories about the name Igbo, though the word means nothing in the igbo language, there are some clans and villages that bare the word. Igbo can also be found in many igbo surnames like Igbokwe which isn't seen in Yoruba.

In addition, Igbo is also found in village names such as 'Igbo Ukwu'(Anambra state), Akwukwu Igbo'(in Delta Igbo), 'Igbo Etiti'(in Enugu state), 'Igbere'(properly 'Igbo Ere' in Abia state), 'AmaIgbo'(in Imo state), 'Umuigbo'(in Rivers state), 'Igbo-Etche', 'Umuasukpu Igbo', 'Umuakuru Igbo'(in Etche, Rivers state), among many others.

A quick search on the surname 'Igbo' or facebook will reveal so many, I mean thousands of, Igbo bearing the name or a combined form of it.

Aigbofa:

That still does not explain why they all trace their origins to Ile Ife and worship the same gods without anyone forcing it in them.
Yes, they fought each other but they prayed to the same gods and spoke the same language shared the same culture. But they did not exist in the posters fertile imagination. Even the English fought each other the same way in the dark ages.

Nobody is saying the Yoruba are descended from Fulani. The discussion is that the general name 'Yoruba' is of Fulani origin.

bigfrancis21:

Nobody is saying the Yoruba are descended from Fulani. The discussion is that the general name 'Yoruba' is of Fulani origin.

Look at the title of the thread. And nobody said Yoruba descended from Fulani. It says tribes of Nigeria are fake which is patently false.

bigfrancis21:

In addition, Igbo is also found in village names such as 'Igbo Ukwu'(Anambra state), Akwukwu Igbo'(in Delta Igbo), 'Igbo Etiti'(in Enugu state), 'Igbere'(properly 'Igbo Ere' in Abia state), 'AmaIgbo'(in Imo state), 'Umuigbo'(in Rivers state), 'Igbo-Etche', 'Umuasukpu Igbo', 'Umuakuru Igbo'(in Etche, Rivers state), among many others.

A quick search on the surname 'Igbo' or facebook will reveal so many, I mean thousands of, Igbo bearing the name or a combined form of it.

dont u thnk it culd be a modern thng, like the Ekitis! just thnkng o!

bigfrancis21:



From the accents on the 'Ìgbò', which I guess is the Yoruba pronunciation, that's the way 'Igbo'(as in the Igbo tribe) is natively pronounced in Igbo, with falling accents.

Hmmm, I have neva heard our eastern brodas pronounced Igbo as yoruba igbo(bush), I have always heard them pronounced it as when a Yorubaman says somebody is using head to fight anoda person( o se ni igbo!)

Aigbofa:

That still does not explain why they all trace their origins to Ile Ife and worship the same gods without anyone forcing it in them.
Yes, they fought each other but they prayed to the same gods and spoke the same language shared the same culture. But they did not exist in the posters fertile imagination. Even the English fought each other the same way in the dark ages.

Like I said, these names and ethnic groups are based on real things, but the keyword is based. The Yoruba have everything in the world needed to call someone an ethnic group. Common language, common culture, common fatih and a common origin belief. I mean as a political unit, even with these things in front of them, they didn't see each other as one united identity until the white man came and put them into a group called Yoruba based on the things i've listen above. Strangers can look at then and see similarities that they didn't see or acknowledge politically in themselves.




Look at europe. The entire continent has the same religion, the same race, the same culture (which minor details), a common origin, and the same course of history, but they among themselves call themselves Germans, French, English, Austrian, Dutch, Dannish etc

They have, culturally, more in common among each other than many tribes in Nigeria but they acknowledge their differences. Had Nigerians colonized europe and declared them to be one single tribe "Oyibo", you will gain more perspective on what I'm saying. They will suddenly say well we all speak latin-germanic derived languages (many of which are more similar than dialects of single languages in Nigeria), we're all white, we all have the same religion, we all have the same culture, we all essentially eat the same food, of course we're one 'ethnicity'.












The truth is most ethnic groups are named by their neighbors and only exist as a result of contrast. It was the Romans than named Germans Germans, English English, and French French, and based on these roman classification, loosely affiliated warring tribes suddenly built foundations on these identifications, and colonist did in Nigeria.

Ikengawo:

Like I said, these names and ethnic groups are based on real things, but the keyword is based. The Yoruba have everything in the world needed to call someone an ethnic group. Common language, common culture, common fatih and a common origin belief. I mean as a political unit, even with these things in front of them, they didn't see each other as one united identity until the white man came and put them into a group called Yoruba based on the things i've listen above. Strangers can look at then and see similarities that they didn't see or acknowledge politically in themselves.




Look at europe. The entire continent has the same religion, the same race, the same culture (which minor details), a common origin, and the same course of history, but they among themselves call themselves Germans, French, English, Austrian, Dutch, Dannish etc

They have, culturally, more in common among each other than many tribes in Nigeria but they acknowledge their differences. Had Nigerians colonized europe and declared them to be one single tribe "Oyibo", you will gain more perspective on what I'm saying. They will suddenly say well we all speak latin-germanic derived languages (many of which are more similar than dialects of single languages in Nigeria), we're all white, we all have the same religion, we all have the same culture, we all essentially eat the same food, of course we're one 'ethnicity'.












The truth is most ethnic groups are named by their neighbors and only exist as a result of contrast. It was the Romans than named Germans Germans, English English, and French French, and based on these roman classification, loosely affiliated warring tribes suddenly built foundations on these identifications, and colonist did in Nigeria.

Sir, with all due respect they were not made Yoruba by the British. The British simply put an end to infighting between them and forced a truce.
As a political unit there was the Oyo empire which extended beyond the shores of Nigeria. If the British didn't come to Africa, a Yoruba nation would still have emerged.
What they call themselves is a different matter. Ile kaaro oojire, Yoruba, Odua we will never know.
To say they did not exist is a lie.

^^^^ eziokwu

It didn't for 2000 plus years?

Even today there are 8 nations that all speak german and are ethnically german but no united german. Somalia the same. It's not a guarantee and we're not in this discussion to speculate. Even today Yoruba land is not united. Trying to paint APC as a sign of a united Yoruba land is only buying into the propoganda of that political party for it's political ends, same for AGPA and igbos. Why Yorubas feel there needs to be a 'united yoruba' and igbos feel there needs to be a 'united igbo' when neither adds or minuses from anyone's standard of life or help them achieve their life goals is beyond me but there wasn't one before the british and there wasn't one after.


We were able to buy into the British identities of 'northerner' 'westerner' and 'easterner' and today you can say there are people in nigeria that are 'easterners' and so forth but what does that really mean other than a line draw in the air by politicians for politicians? I suppose I am an easterner, but I'm yet to realize how 'south east' or 'east' has impacted my daily life. My village has, a lot, because it's where I'm from, where I own land and where my family is located but outside of that what does "southeast" do for my standard of living or way of life?

ikeyman00: ^^^^ eziokwu

Meaning?

Ikengawo:

Like I said, these names and ethnic groups are based on real things, but the keyword is based. The Yoruba have everything in the world needed to call someone an ethnic group. Common language, common culture, common fatih and a common origin belief. I mean as a political unit, even with these things in front of them, they didn't see each other as one united identity until the white man came and put them into a group called Yoruba based on the things i've listen above. Strangers can look at then and see similarities that they didn't see or acknowledge politically in themselves.




Look at europe. The entire continent has the same religion, the same race, the same culture (which minor details), a common origin, and the same course of history, but they among themselves call themselves Germans, French, English, Austrian, Dutch, Dannish etc

They have, culturally, more in common among each other than many tribes in Nigeria but they acknowledge their differences. Had Nigerians colonized europe and declared them to be one single tribe "Oyibo", you will gain more perspective on what I'm saying. They will suddenly say well we all speak latin-germanic derived languages (many of which are more similar than dialects of single languages in Nigeria), we're all white, we all have the same religion, we all have the same culture, we all essentially eat the same food, of course we're one 'ethnicity'.












The truth is most ethnic groups are named by their neighbors and only exist as a result of contrast. It was the Romans than named Germans Germans, English English, and French French, and based on these roman classification, loosely affiliated warring tribes suddenly built foundations on these identifications, and colonist did in Nigeria.

Don't get your boxers in a twist, sir. The European were just like us! Just like us, they claim to have common ancestries, they warred, were clannish, formed alliances and had separate kingdoms!

In the end, the most powerful conquered and assimilated the less powerful and influential ones forming kingdoms.

If the British hadn't amalgamated us the way they did, in the rush to form countries, The Yorubas would have most likely ended up with the Beninois and Togolese.

olu_kenzo :


Don't get your boxes in a twist. The European were just like us! Just like us, they claim to have common ancestries, they warred, were clannish, formed alliances and had separate kingdoms!

In the end, the most powerful conquered and assimilated the less powerful and influential ones forming kingdoms.

If the British hadn't amalgamated us the they did, in the rush to form countries, The Yorubas would have most likely ended up with the Beninois and Togolese.

Absolutely. They did everything we did.

Oladiran: dont u thnk it culd be a modern thng, like the Ekitis! just thnkng o!

Nope. Its not. These village names have been in existence for quite some time. The name, 'Igbere' of the village originated during the slave trade era when neighbouring villages tried to raid them, capture their people and sell them off to slavery. The Igbere natives resisted and won in their resistance that they named themselves 'Igbo ere'(Igbo ereghi in Central Igbo) literally meaning 'Igbos couldn't sell'. Funny enough, many Igbo towns during those days didn't see themselves as 'Igbo' but instead Igbos were the other towns around them, but not them.

any post that includes "would have" has no real place in this discussion as hypothetical scenarios can only lend in launching this topic into outer space. I'm speak of what's on the ground today and yesterday that can be measured and cited, not 'there would have been' one thing or another.

Ikengawo: any post that includes "would have" has no real place in this discussion as hypothetical scenarios can only lend in launching this topic into outer space. I'm speak of what's on the ground today and yesterday that can be measured and cited, not 'there would have been' one thing or another.

The topic itself is historically false. You injected hypothesis by saying if Nigerians had colonized Europe and called them Oyibo, just to remind you.

Oladiran: Hmmm, I have neva heard our eastern brodas pronounced Igbo as yoruba igbo(bush), I have always heard them pronounced it as when a Yorubaman says somebody is using head to fight anoda person( o se ni igbo!)

Yea that's because Igbo when pronounced when speaking English has rising and middle patterns but when pronounced natively in Igbo it is pronounced with falling accents, which is the proper pronunciation. Ask any Igbo speaker to pronounce Igbo natively the way its pronounced when speaking Igbo, and you'll be amazed.

Aigbofa:

Sir, with all due respect they were not made Yoruba by the British. The British simply put an end to infighting between them and forced a truce.
As a political unit there was the Oyo empire which extended beyond the shores of Nigeria. If the British didn't come to Africa, a Yoruba nation would still have emerged.
What they call themselves is a different matter. Ile kaaro oojire, Yoruba, Odua we will never know.
To say they did not exist is a lie.

If the British had not come, there actually wouldnt have been anytng like a Yoruba nation! there wuld hav ben tngs like Egba nation, Oyo nation, Ijesha nation etc, distinctly diferent politically but generally agreeng to comon heritage. Let us assume that by now modernization wuld hav ceased wars among these pple, but they will neva be one. Even now, if u can just look at Osun state, the rivalry btween d Oyos and the Ijeshas making the state is not a small thng at all!

Aigbofa:

Look at the title of the thread. And nobody said Yoruba descended from Fulani. It says tribes of Nigeria are fake which is patently false.

I know that isn't the title of the thread. You were thinking that by asserting the Fulani origin of the name 'Yoruba', it also meant that the Yorubas were descended from Fulanis. And I only wished to correct that impression.

Oladiran: If the British had not come, there actually wouldnt have been anytng like a Yoruba nation! there wuld hav ben tngs like Egba nation, Oyo nation, Ijesha nation etc, distinctly diferent politically but generally agreeng to comon heritage. Let us assume that by now modernization wuld hav ceased wars among these pple, but they will neva be one. Even now, if u can just look at Osun state, the rivalry btween d Oyos and the Ijeshas making the state is not a small thng at all!

The kernel of a Yoruba nation was already there. A strong leader would have eventually emerged to unite them. Its been like that through out history.
The local rivalry you talked about exists everywhere on the planet.

Aigbofa:

The kernel of a Yoruba nation was already there. A strong leader would have eventually emerged to unite them. Its been like that through out history.

Victory in war wuld have ensured a single Yoruba nation! But as Kiriji war was going, wu dd u thnk wuld have won? Even if the Ekiti parapo won d war, wu wuld hav ben ruling, Ijeshas or the Ekitis? to decide dat wuld hav ben anoda war! The only way we wuld hav ben together wuld hav ben fo Ibadan to hav won on all fronts and that was not really looking so!

Funny, the Saxons, Jutes etc etc fought so many wars but became united in Britain.