Oladiran: Victory in war wuld have ensured a single Yoruba nation! But as Kiriji war was going, wu dd u thnk wuld have won? Even if the Ekiti parapo won d war, wu wuld hav ben ruling, Ijeshas or the Ekitis? to decide dat wuld hav ben anoda war! The only way we wuld hav ben together wuld hav ben fo Ibadan to hav won on all fronts and that was not really looking so!

Who knows, maybe the Ekitis and the Ijeshas too would have resolved that on the battle field. But one thing is certain a Yoruba nation would have emerged anyway.

olu_kenzo :
Funny, the Saxons, Jutes etc etc fought so many wars but became united in Britain.

Haha, dats another thng, the grup dat formed d so called Yorubas culd have come togeda to form a union like dat of Great Britain!

Oladiran: Haha, dats another thng, the grup dat formed d so called Yorubas culd have come togeda to form a union like dat of Great Britain!

United states, Netherlands, Belgium (Celtic, Germanic, Frankish people), no?

olu_kenzo :


United states, Netherlands, Belgium (Celtic, Germanic, Frankish people), no?

I said like Britain now! Ibadan or Lagos wuld hav been d admin center! but wuld hav serious arguments, disturbances etc rememba d old western region!

bigfrancis21:

Yea that's because Igbo when pronounced when speaking English has rising and middle patterns but when pronounced natively in Igbo it is pronounced with falling accents, which is the proper pronunciation. Ask any Igbo speaker to pronounce Igbo natively the way its pronounced when speaking Igbo, and you'll be amazed.

The pronunciation of the Yoruba 'igbo' actually is same for igbo (ganja, weed), I think. I'm speculating based on how Okeigbo, a place in Ondo state, is pronounced.

passion007:

The pronunciation of the Yoruba 'igbo' actually is same for igbo (ganja, weed), I think. I'm speculating based on how Okeigbo, a place in Ondo state, is pronounced.

Yes u are right, dat is y Im disagreeing dat it s pronouced d same as Igbo(pple frm d easter side)

Oladiran: I said like Britain now! Ibadan or Lagos wuld hav been d admin center! but wuld hav serious arguments, disturbances etc rememba d old western region!

Aunty mii, I no fight you. I was just buttressing our point.

I doubt Lagos would have been the admin center though, Ibadan maybe. Lagos from time has always had the commercial capital job cut for it. The same would prevail when Nigeria divides.

Oladiran: Yes u are right, dat is y Im disagreeing dat it s pronouced d same as Igbo(pple frm d easter side)

My mum actually pronounced it Igbo (janja). She however said these Igbo people are now extinct...

passion007:

The pronunciation of the Yoruba 'igbo' actually is same for igbo (ganja, weed), I think. I'm speculating based on how Okeigbo, a place in Ondo state, is pronounced.

I was referring to the Yoruba 'Igbo' for 'bush' which has falling intonations and not 'ganja'. Igbo(ganja) has all rising intonations, Igbo tribe(the way we pronounce it when speaking English has rising and middle intonations) and Igbo tribe(the way we pronounce it natively in Igbo) has faliing accents.

As soon as i saw the thread title and thread starter, i knew it was another diatribe about yoruba.


He didnt prove me wrong.

Ikengawo: British creations from top to bottom. The britsh created them based of course on the reality on the ground. Yes there were groups of people that spoke the same language and it's thus easy to name them after that language and have them except it as an identity, but it is known by every reputable scholar that the british created Igbo, Yoruba, Hausa/Fulani, Bini etc as concrete identities of 'different people' that had these 'walls' around their tribe that made them all family.


As much as we say the britian 'brought us together', to a great extent the level of togetherness prior to colonialism was also shattered. We traded one form of togetherness for another and the terms of an 'ethnic' union.


Before the british there was no 'yoruba'. There way Oyo, Ekiti, Ijebu etc etc and they were trying to kill each other. the Bini people who are linguistically and to a great extent nothing like the yoruba were ruled willing by a yoruba king. the bini founded igbo cities like Onitcha and 'niger delta' cities and groups as well ('niger delta' is the newest 'family' we've created out of thin air).

There are tribes that speak igbo but aren't igbo. tribes that don't speak igbo but are igbo. Igbo tribes with more in common with efiks and ijaws than other igbos. As it stands, nothing but colonialism makes an anambran and an abia 'one'.

Before colonialism Jaja, and igbo man could raise the ranks in Ijaw man an become a king as he did. Efiks and Ibibios and Igbos were in the same cultural fertrnities and shared the same written language.

The same goes for yorubas. Iilorin has a Fulani head, and has more in common with the people in that area (nupe etc) than the people on Ondo.



The north is the most striking example of this. What is Hausa/Fulani? Hausa is simply a language. It became a lingua franca and due to heavy trade a dominate culture in the region and now I'm willing to say almost half of the people who speak hausa aren't 'ethnically' hausa, including the Fulani.

and what do the city Fulani have in common with the rural ones? Culture, lifestyle, religion, language even look, they're in two different worlds that seldom cross paths.

The Ijaw are the worst. exactly what is an Ijaw? They even speak different languages among each other and will openly tell you they have nothing to do with each other. It's only the oil struggle that have brought about a stronger identity for them as biafra did for igbos.





I do understand that there are a people you can call 'igbo' because they speak 'igbo', and people that call themselves 'yoruba' because they speak yoruba, but it didn't mean a single thing to these people until they were told that's who they are. Sure it made sense once the combination happen but consider this example.


Nigerians call whites Oyibo. All whites are Oyibo. Hispanics, Asians, Arabs, Europeans, all Oyibo. What if Nigerians would have colonized the world and told "oyibo" people that they were Oyibos. Suddenly it would exist as an ethnic group. After all you can say they all have the same color of skin, and similar hair texture so it has to mean something right? This is exactly what happened in Nigeria.

Yoruba isn't even a Yoruba word. Fulani is an Hausa word. We need to stop being so simplistic in our understanding of ourselves.

I speak for most of us when i say,shut the fucck up

bigfrancis21:

I was referring to the Yoruba 'Igbo' for 'bush' which has falling intonations and not 'ganja'. Igbo(ganja) has all rising intonations, Igbo tribe(the way we pronounce it when speaking English has rising and middle intonations) and Igbo tribe(the way we pronounce it natively in Igbo) has faliing accents.

We're on the same page.
I believe Okeigbo means 'bushy hills'.

Brilliant beyond brilliant.

passion007:

We're on the same page.
I believe Okeigbo means 'bushy hills'.

100% correct as opposed to rocky hills!
ganja/weed and bush or forest have the same name in Yoruba. The ganja or weed is supposed to be unwanted bushy plants, hence the name igbo.

Ikengawo: Look at europe. The entire continent has the same religion, the same race, the same culture (which minor details), a common origin, and the same course of history, but they among themselves call themselves Germans, French, English, Austrian, Dutch, Dannish etc

They don't have the same culture. Race is very arbitrary, you can use DNA (and very loosely use physical features) to tell where a European comes from in Europe. German can be a race. In what country in Eastern Europe/Western Asia do people stop being white? Christianity spread a few hundred years ago, yet these cultures inevitably made very drastic changes to these springing up denominations like Anglicanism, Lutheranism, the Russian Orthodox Church, and so on. These denominations are almost different religions sparring belief in some sort of Jesus Christ. Asia is overwhelmingly Buddhist and Muslim, but that doesn't mean much in terms of identity.

Of course they are similar, and we have to bare in mind that some African countries are larger than Western Europe.

Ikengawo: They have, culturally, more in common among each other than many tribes in Nigeria but they acknowledge their differences. Had Nigerians colonized europe and declared them to be one single tribe "Oyibo", you will gain more perspective on what I'm saying. They will suddenly say well we all speak latin-germanic derived languages (many of which are more similar than dialects of single languages in Nigeria), we're all white, we all have the same religion, we all have the same culture, we all essentially eat the same food, of course we're one 'ethnicity'.

But most Nigerian groups are named by themselves. That's where the fault of this proposition comes, the idea that the ethnic groups are all creations of Europe, rather than a bonding due to wider exposure. Europe was united for a long time under Rome, but the nations that are there are still roughly based on ethnic affiliations that predate Romans.

Ikengawo: The truth is most ethnic groups are named by their neighbors and only exist as a result of contrast.

The latter is true for almost any sort of grouping, tangible or intangible. I don't know if most ethnic groups are named by their neigbours, but it doesn't really relate to the question of their realness or fakeness, and the idea of an ethnic group being fake is also questionable.

Ikengawo: It was the Romans than named Germans Germans, English English, and French French, and based on these roman classification, loosely affiliated warring tribes suddenly built foundations on these identifications, and colonist did in Nigeria.

I knew this wasn't true, so I'm going to check, First of all French and German people don't call themselves French or German, I know Germans call themselves Deutschen and French obivously Francais, I think French is post-Roman and is related to the Frankish tribes, and I know English comes from the Germanic Angles, but let's check:

German
"The German term Deutsche originates from the Old High German word diutisc (from diot "people", referring to the Germanic "language of the people". It is not clear how commonly, if at all, the word was used as an ethnonym in Old High German."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans

French
Yep, it cam from the Germanic Franks.

English
Yes it came from the Angles.

(see, the modern nations of Europe are loosely based on ancient ethnic affiliations).

Ikengawo: and based on these roman classification, loosely affiliated warring tribes suddenly built foundations on these identifications, and colonist did in Nigeria.

Nope, the English weren't in 'England' when rome existed, they were in Germany, and Germany wasn't under Rome. Much like Nigeria, groups that already had a common ancestry had developed a political bond.

Most ethnic groups are a result of outside influence, so it's not special case in Nigeria.

..

bigfrancis21:

Igbo has been known and recorded for several decades before the White man came to the Nigerian polity. The Igbo ethnic group was well documented in slave trade records, accounts and published works by several authors on the Trans-atlantic slave trade from as early as 1600. Igbo was recorded as 'Ibo'. Alternative spellings were 'Ebo', 'Eboe', 'Heebo'.

In the same vein, Yorubas were recorded more as 'Nago', and 'Lukumi', and to a lesser extent 'Yoruba'.

Where are these records and who made them. Those heebo and eboe and ebo thing are lies promulgated by people in Igboland that are conniving with white people to distort our history. And claim to be related to white people. That, I think is disgusting. And this makes those "Igbo" communities suspect in the minds of many "Igbo" people.

Aigbofa:

Who knows, maybe the Ekitis and the Ijeshas too would have resolved that on the battle field. But one thing is certain a Yoruba nation would have emerged anyway.

Probably.
But what I think the OP is trying to pass across is that, what we have now is as a result of British influence. They intercepted our destiny in achieving sovereignty and autonomy for ourselves.
If Nigeria splits today, I would not be surprised if squabbles arise in each ethnic group.

FreeGlobe: I disagree. Its Nigerian politics that caused the divisions of ethnic nationalities not colonial masters. Ask yourself how the igbo ethnicity would have been like today for instance without the civil war and state creation

*BULLSHIT ALERT* pls ignore!

Ikengawo: Before the british there was no 'yoruba'. There way Oyo, Ekiti, Ijebu etc etc and they were trying to kill each other. the Bini people who are linguistically and to a great extent nothing like the yoruba were ruled willing by a yoruba king. the bini founded igbo cities like Onitcha and 'niger delta' cities and groups as well ('niger delta' is the newest 'family' we've created out of thin air).

The same Niger Delta Region that the various european groups ( Portuguese, Dutch, French & lastly English) we came in contact with and traded with for more than 300 years when most of your Igboland & indeed most hinterland were still in their primitive default settings. Niger Delta is the first entity europeans came in contact with and it is well document. Ikengawo, Your ignorance is really profound.

FYI, Binis did not found any Niger Delta city state, don't rub the fact that Binis formed a major part of Igbo ancestry on the rest of Niger Delta.

There are tribes that speak igbo but aren't igbo. tribes that don't speak igbo but are igbo. There are Igbo tribes with more in common with efiks and ijaws than other igbos. As it stands, nothing but colonialism makes an anambran and an abia 'one'.

Which Igbo group has more in common with Ijaw people? More in common in what sense? Do you even know what you're typing or you're just another lunatic on the loose?

Before colonialism Jaja, and igbo man could raise the ranks in Ijaw man an become a king as he did. Efiks and Ibibios and Igbos were in the same cultural fertrnities and shared the same written language.

Another rubbish that never goes out of fashion!

You try hard to create an impression that every ethnic group interacted freely with Igbos without any hinderance and as such an Igbo man can just walk into Ijaw territory and become whatever he wants to be.

Let me burst you bubble before it forms a cloud above our heads! The only reason why Igbos EVER got to the coast (Ijawland) was thru' SLAVERY & SLAVE TRADE.

Jaja didn't just migrate to Ijaw land and 'rise' to become king. He was bought at a very tender age (Igbos even sold their little children into slavery) by an Ijaw trader when he was at the verge of being shipped overseas.

Jaja was never a slave in Ijawland but adopted as a SON in an already populated househood of his Ijaw father. Jaja wasn't what he was because he was just one industrious Igbo man making it big in Ijawland. He was what he was NOT because he was Igbo but because he was a SON of an Ijaw man so therefore, Ijaws made Jaja who he is today, not the contrary as you're portraying here.

The Ijaw are the worst. exactly what is an Ijaw? They even speak different languages among each other and will openly tell you they have nothing to do with each other. It's only the oil struggle that have brought about a stronger identity for them as biafra did for igbos.

Another manifestation of Ozodi Osuji's diagnosis. An Igbo man sees and projects his defects and deficiencies on another man to create sort of consolation that he doesn't share the defect alone!

What do you even know about Ijaw people other than the rubbish you read from history books compiled conjectures by Kenneth Dike & Ike Okonta?

Nigerians call whites Oyibo. All whites are Oyibo. Hispanics, Asians, Arabs, Europeans, all Oyibo. What if Nigerians would have colonized the world and told "oyibo" people that they were Oyibos. Suddenly it would exist as an ethnic group. After all you can say they all have the same color of skin, and similar hair texture so it has to mean something right? This is exactly what happened in Nigeria.

The classic ignorance of an Igbo man!

You think every ethnic group is experiencing the confusion Igbos have in Igboland? Nonsense!

Dibiachukwu:
Where are these records and who made them. Those heebo and eboe and ebo thing are lies promulgated by people in Igboland that are conniving with white people to distort our history. And claim to be related to white people. That, I think is disgusting. And this makes those "Igbo" communities suspect in the minds of many "Igbo" people.

Before you start arguing learn to look up some facts up on google. Igbo people were among the major ethnic groups that were sold during the slave trade. Approximately 1.3 million Igbo left the shores of Bonny and Calabar.

Simply visit google, type 'Igbo people and Slave Trade', click on search and educate yourself.

bigfrancis21:

Before you start arguing learn to look up some facts up on google. Igbo people were among the major ethnic groups that were sold during the slave trade. Approximately 1.3 million Igbo left the shores of Bonny and Calabar.

Simply visit google, type 'Igbo people and Slave Trade', click on search and educate yourself.

There was no Igbo during slavery. On a side note I would like someone from say Awka or Onitsha to watch this video and tell me what aspect of this culture is the same as theirs. Shout out to "Goge Africa" on this video from "Igwa Mang' festival of Aebiriba. The 2nd is "Onyiba Aebiriba"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuyXY78DVhQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PijIj1UIofI


The 3rd video is on the "Ngwa Igbo" and anyone that decodes the dialect well will hear what the Eze said while blessing the kola. The Ngwas knew other people that spoke Igbo language as "Ohunhun" while Ibibios were "Bibi" prior to colonization and its still in use till this day while discussing among Ngwas. I don't know if that was applicable to Asa and Ndoki.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbgMDBWtDE

The term "ohnuhnu" wasn't actually used by Ngwa to identify others who speak "Igbo language". Rather, it was a term used to identify what Ngwa considered 'stranger elements' who weren't actually their Ohnuhnu kin, but typically made their way to Ngwa via Ohnuhnu's side of the Imo. Now, "ohnuhnu" has come to mean any and everything non-Ngwa, and its usage now tends to apply to "Igbo-speaking" people north and west of Ngwa. The term does not apply to Ohnuhnu (Mbaise), Asa, Ndoki, Echie and Ikwere. Ngwa generally does not call the aforementioned people "ohnuhnu", in the 'stranger element' sense.

ijaw citizen: The same Niger Delta Region that the various european groups ( Portuguese, Dutch, French & lastly English) we came in contact with and traded with for more than 300 years when most of your Igboland & indeed most hinterland were still in their primitive default settings.

So what you're saying in simpler terms is that the Ijaw are more advanced because they've been used and abused by the superior race known as Europeans for longer and have sold themselves to them for longer? Classic inferiority complex.

You're actually proud of your ancestors playing houseboy and òché ngà for Europeans? When everyone else was trying to fight them off?

Abagworo:

There was no Igbo during slavery.

What do you mean?

ezeagu:

What do you mean?

What I mean is that people did not know any tribe as Igbo during slavery. It was rather a term later developed to refer to an area known as the "Ibo country" before it was later transformed to "Ibo tribe" and now Igbo ethnic group. All of Nigeria was like that prior to coming of Europeans except of course where one person had created an empire which usually also included people speaking different languages and hence cannot be identified as ethnic group but a Kingdom, State or empire.

Abagworo:

What I mean is that people did not know any tribe as Igbo during slavery. It was rather a term later developed to refer to an area known as the "Ibo country" before it was later transformed to "Ibo tribe" and now Igbo ethnic group. All of Nigeria was like that prior to coming of Europeans except of course where one person had created an empire which usually also included people speaking different languages and hence cannot be identified as ethnic group but a Kingdom, State or empire.

Surely if the slave dealers are calling somewhere the Ibo or Eboe country, doesn't that also mean the people there are the Eboe people or tribe? It's also questionable whether this was at first a geographic term because the anthropological description of Igbo slaves then matches Igbo people today, as well as cultural Eboe elements which are specifically from known Igbo-speaking groups. The classification of Ibo territory was rough and it sometimes included areas that are not today considered Igbo, yet those people when leaving their homes didn't adopt Ibo, like closely related Ibibio who were known as 'Moko'. But even if the term came from naming the place first (after what?) it's still recorded that people identified and were identified as Eboe as early as the 18th century, and we can't forget Olaudah Equiano who explicitly called himself Eboe and referred to the term as something people from his home country identified with.

Abagworo:

What I mean is that people did not know any tribe as Igbo during slavery. It was rather a term later developed to refer to an area known as the "Ibo country" before it was later transformed to "Ibo tribe" and now Igbo ethnic group. All of Nigeria was like that prior to coming of Europeans except of course where one person had created an empire which usually also included people speaking different languages and hence cannot be identified as ethnic group but a Kingdom, State or empire.

Actually, Ibo as a tribal term did exist during slavery. Slave records of slaves leaving bight of Biafra and slaves landing in the Americas and West indies documented the ethnicities of the respective African tribes taken to the Americas, of which 'Ibo' was widely and well documented. I'm talking of articles and records written as far back as the 15, 16th and 17th centuries. And the transatlantic slave trade era was between 1400(15th century) and 1800(19th century).
Alternative spellings used were 'Ebo', 'Eboe', 'Heebo' etc. Slave masters were well versed in the different ethnicities of Africa which they traded form and had specific preferences.

Olaudah Equiano who wrote his autobiography in late 18th century documented that his tribe was 'Ebo'. And the last time I checked, that period was well during the apex of slavery. Meaning that 'Ibo' as a tribal name was already known and documented by foreigners.

The 'Eboes' were a well-known people in the US during the 17th and 18th centuries.

Despite the popularity of the 'Ibo' term in slave trade records, some records recorded the actual respective Igbo sub-clan names of the slaves, and not 'Ibo', which you already know.

However, the Igbo tribal identity and consciousness in Nigeria as we have it today wasn't existing. Each Igbo sub-clan tended to identify with its sub-clan or village name. I guess this is what confused you into declaring that 'Igbo' didn't exist. True that is, when referring to tribal affiliations. But the term, 'Ibo' has been in existence right from about 1600.

bigfrancis21:

Actually, Ibo as a tribal term did exist during slavery. Slave records of slaves leaving bight of Biafra and slaves landing in the Americas and West indies documented the ethnicities of the respective African tribes taken to the Americas, of which 'Ibo' was widely and well documented. I'm talking of articles and records written as far back as the 15, 16th and 17th centuries. And the transatlantic slave trade era was between 1400(15th century) and 1800(19th century).
Alternative spellings used were 'Ebo', 'Eboe', 'Heebo' etc. Slave masters were well versed in the different ethnicities of Africa which they traded form and had specific preferences.

Olaudah Equiano who wrote his autobiography in late 18th century documented that his tribe was 'Ebo'. And the last time I checked, that period was well during the apex of slavery. Meaning that 'Ibo' as a tribal name was already known and documented by foreigners.

The 'Eboes' were a well-known people in the US during the 17th and 18th centuries.

Despite the popularity of the 'Ibo' term in slave trade records, some records recorded the actual respective Igbo sub-clan names of the slaves, and not 'Ibo', which you already know.

However, the Igbo tribal identity and consciousness in Nigeria as we have it today wasn't existing. Each Igbo sub-clan tended to identify with its sub-clan or village name. I guess this is what confused you into declaring that 'Igbo' didn't exist. True that is, when referring to tribal affiliations. But the term, 'Ibo' has been in existence right from about 1600.

I've never seen where slaves recorded their tribe as Igbo or Yoruba. Igbo was earlier used in those 1600s to refer to a geographic area and not an ethnic group.

ezeagu:

Surely if the slave dealers are calling somewhere the Ibo or Eboe country, doesn't that also mean the people there are the Eboe people or tribe? It's also questionable whether this was at first a geographic term because the anthropological description of Igbo slaves then matches Igbo people today, as well as cultural Eboe elements which are specifically from known Igbo-speaking groups. The classification of Ibo territory was rough and it sometimes included areas that are not today considered Igbo, yet those people when leaving their homes didn't adopt Ibo, like closely related Ibibio who were known as 'Moko'. But even if the term came from naming the place first (after what?) it's still recorded that people identified and were identified as Eboe as early as the 18th century, and we can't forget Olaudah Equiano who explicitly called himself Eboe and referred to the term as something people from his home country identified with.

The name Eboe probably came from the slave buyers themselves. Because Nobody can tell us what that means. So we have two records now. Yorubas called it Igbo, and white people called it eboe.

ezeagu:

So what you're saying in simpler terms is that the Ijaw are more advanced because they've been used and abused by the superior race known as Europeans for longer and have sold themselves to them for longer? Classic inferiority complex.

You're actually proud of your ancestors playing houseboy and òché ngà for Europeans? When everyone else was trying to fight them off?

This statements shows just how naive and uneducated you are. Better read people can see thru' your ignorance and stupidity except those who are just like you.

Don't ever quote me with this kind of stupidity next time.

Abagworo:

I've never seen where slaves recorded their tribe as Igbo or Yoruba. Igbo was earlier used in those 1600s to refer to a geographic area and not an ethnic group.

@Bold...I guess it is because you may not have researched well. That you haven't seen doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The argument here was whether Ibo as a term existed before Nigeria's colonialism and yes it did. Which I've proven to you. The popular place called 'Ebo's landing' in Georgia had its name given during the slave trade right after the Ebo's landing incident. A town in Belize was named 'Eboe' town for the first half of the 17th century.

In the Americas, whites used 'Ibo' to refer to a related group of peoples who spoke some related form of language. And the whites in US were shocked to discover that many Ibo slaves never heard of or called themselves 'Ibo' while in Africa. However, on reaching US, many assumed the identity and referred to themselves by it. Don't forget the oral ancestral histories of some african americans which AAs say that their grandfather/grandmother told them that his/her own grandparent was descended from 'Ibo' of Nigeria.

Ibo as a term existed during the slave trade. Olauda Equiano had a very clear-cut sense of this nationality and their location when he wrote his autobiography.

Yorubas were recorded more and more as Nago, Lukmi, Egba etc.

Remember that source you provided where Igbo slaves recorded their respective sub-clans(Acoqua, Ocuela etc). Despite seeing several different Igbo sub-clans, there was 'Ibo' among the listings there which might mean that 1 or 2 slaves or more may have referred to themselves as that on arrival in the US.