Abagworo:

One thing that needs to be cleared is that "Oye ebo" in that context meant "Red one". Ebo meant "red". Aro people used "Uhie" then to paint themselves and were distinguishable with their red color. Equiano in present day Igbo orthography should be Ekwuiano or Ikwuiano and not "Ikwuano".

The problem with your theory is that Eboe/Ebo is pronounced ee-bow and not eh-bow (as attested by places like Ebo landing and the fact that Eboe was used interchangeably with Ibo). Another problem is that Eboe later corrected as Ibo then became Igbo.

Antivirus92: that guy is confused. If equiano could refer to a certain people as oye-eboe. Then it means that igbo are a people and not location.

I've clarified on the context which "oye eboe" was used and you are too unintelligent to comprehend. Let me quote Olaudah for you to understand with your little brain.

“As we live in a country where nature is prodigal of her favours, our wants are few and easily supplied… We have also markets, at which I have been frequently with my mother.  These are sometimes visited by stout, mahogany-coloured men from the south west of us: we call them Oye-Eboe, which term signifies red men living at a distance.  They generally bring us firearms, gun-powder, hats, beads and dried fish.”

What dialect uses ebo for red?

Antivirus92: nri-awka does not have any ibibio,benin or aro settlement among them. Nri -awka are native igbos mixed alittle with igala. Never bini,ibibio or aro.

Read my post again. I said Aro is a product of nri-awka persons and ibibio persons. Basically settlers from Nri-awka with the help of persons from ibibio founded Aro

ezeagu: What dialect uses ebo for red?

I suspect many meanings of that term 'oye ebo'.
1) It could have meant 'onye igbo' since it was noted then that many communities didn't see themselves as 'Igbo' but rather other communities around them were 'Igbo', not them. Maybe it was an extension of its usage to refer to an outside Igbo community that is not theirs. Take the Igbere community, for example, they named themselves 'Igbere'(Igbo ere) meaning that they regarded the slave raiders from other community(ies), maybe Aro, as Igbo, and not them.

2) It could have also meant 'Oyiibo'. Notice that we Igbos extend the 'I' part when natively pronouncing 'Oyibo' such that it sounds 'Oyiibo'.

3) It could also mean what Abagworo just said.

In Asaba Igbo, 'Igbo' means 'slave'.

Olaudah's mentioning of the usage of 'Oye Eboe'(let's assume it means Onye Igbo) in his account also shows that the term was in already usage and flourished in pre-colonial Igboland before the coming of the white man and was not a british construct as some people would have us believe. The British, who understood linguistics and its potency in connecting sub clans, went further to help expand the term's usage in a more wider sense to include the respective bia-speaking sub-clans.

Abagworo:

One thing that needs to be cleared is that "Oye ebo" in that context meant "Red one". Ebo meant "red". Aro people used "Uhie" then to paint themselves and were distinguishable with their red color. Equiano in present day Igbo orthography should be Ekwuiano or Ikwuiano and not "Ikwuano".

@Bold...if Equiano should be Ikwuiano or Ekwuiano according to you, now tell me what either of them means? Or cite examples of people bearing the surname or name spelt in such manner, when several people exist today who bear Ikwuano rather either as surname or name? Are you aware of Ikwuano LGA in Abia state?

You should know that there was no official Igbo spelling orthography as at then, hence the British bastardized Igbo words when spelling them. You yourself brought forward evidence in a past thread of yours of such bastardized spellings by the British, such as acocua(akokwa), ocuella(okwelle), isiegue(isigwe) etc.

Look at the difference between the British bastardized spelling of 'Onitsha' and proper Igbo spelling of 'Onicha'. Therefore it shouldn't surprise you that Ikwuano was spelt wrongly as Equiano.

Maybe it's just me, but if we're going to follow the "cu/qu" logic, wouldn't "Equiano" be rendered as "Ikwiano" (or more likely "Ikwieno" ), as opposed to "Ikwuano"? The "qui" seems more likely to represent "kwi" in the current orthography, rather than "kwu".

ChinenyeN: Maybe it's just me, but if we're going to follow the "cu/qu" logic, wouldn't "Equiano" be rendered as "Ikwiano" (or more likely "Ikwieno" ), as opposed to "Ikwuano"? The "qui" seems more likely to represent "kwi" in the current orthography, rather than "kwu".

"Ekwue anu" or "Ikwue anu" is my likely translation.

bigfrancis21:

I suspect many meanings of that term 'oye ebo'.
1) It could have meant 'onye igbo' since it was noted then that many communities didn't see themselves as 'Igbo' but rather other communities around them were 'Igbo', not them. Maybe it was an extension of its usage to refer to an outside Igbo community that is not theirs. Take the Igbere community, for example, they named themselves 'Igbere'(Igbo ere) meaning that they regarded the slave raiders from other community(ies), maybe Aro, as Igbo, and not them.

2) It could have also meant 'Oyiibo'. Notice that we Igbos extend the 'I' part when natively pronouncing 'Oyibo' such that it sounds 'Oyiibo'.

3) It could also mean what Abagworo just said.

In Asaba Igbo, 'Igbo' means 'slave'.

Olaudah's mentioning of the usage of 'Oye Eboe'(let's assume it means Onye Igbo) in his account also shows that the term was in already usage and flourished in pre-colonial Igboland before the coming of the white man and was not a british construct as some people would have us believe. The British, who understood linguistics and its potency in connecting sub clans, went further to help expand the term's usage in a more wider sense to include the respective bia-speaking sub-clans.

Your "Igbo ere" instance lends credence to my hypothesis of Equiano likely referring to Aros and like I always believed the source of the Igbo name for everyone around. The recent claim by Amaigbo of being the origin of Igbo is laughable as the name "Amaigbo" already betrays them . In Igboland "Ama" is mostly used as a prefix in reference to a compound or kindred by others not related to them with the name of the compound founder as suffix. Like "Ama JK" in Owerri means JK's compound or "Ama-Hausa" means "Hausa area" and given by others around. Other variances are "Ogbe" ,"Ndi", "Ebo" or "Ezi" .

ChinenyeN: Maybe it's just me, but if we're going to follow the "cu/qu" logic, wouldn't "Equiano" be rendered as "Ikwiano" (or more likely "Ikwieno" ), as opposed to "Ikwuano"? The "qui" seems more likely to represent "kwi" in the current orthography, rather than "kwu".

Can you tell us the meaning of Ikwieno or Ikwiano, since I personally have not come across such a name/surname spelling in Igboland before?

bigfrancis21:

I suspect many meanings of that term 'oye ebo'.
1) It could have meant 'onye igbo' since it was noted then that many communities didn't see themselves as 'Igbo' but rather other communities around them were 'Igbo', not them. Maybe it was an extension of its usage to refer to an outside Igbo community that is not theirs. Take the Igbere community, for example, they named themselves 'Igbere'(Igbo ere) meaning that they regarded the slave raiders from other community(ies), maybe Aro, as Igbo, and not them.

2) It could have also meant 'Oyiibo'. Notice that we Igbos extend the 'I' part when natively pronouncing 'Oyibo' such that it sounds 'Oyiibo'.

3) It could also mean what Abagworo just said.

In Asaba Igbo, 'Igbo' means 'slave'.

Olaudah's mentioning of the usage of 'Oye Eboe'(let's assume it means Onye Igbo) in his account also shows that the term was in already usage and flourished in pre-colonial Igboland before the coming of the white man and was not a british construct as some people would have us believe. The British, who understood linguistics and its potency in connecting sub clans, went further to help expand the term's usage in a more wider sense to include the respective bia-speaking sub-clans.

Oye ibo (Bush person) -> Oye ibo (slave)(mockery) -> Oyibo (foreigner/white). Oye ibo is also a very popular slur in ibom(calabar) area, used to mock Igbos.
The part on bold, lends a little more credence to the yoruba claims. It is not a hidden that benin sold and had Igbo slaves. Benin and Ijo are a yoroboid people. And it makes perfect sense that they often raided the bushes. This same scenario is also applicable in the igbo-mina area. Asaba has a lot of bini influence. Igbo doesn't mean slave or bush (it has no meaning) in central Igbo. The yoroboids have a meaning for Igbo. Bini is a yoroboid state. It makes a lot of sense that Igbo meaning slave is a borrowed word from bini. If not, Asaba people that consider themselves Igbo; are calling themselves slaves. As I said before, I consider places like Asaba to be very heterogeneous. It is unknown (to me), if this heterogeneity; translates to straight up gene mixtures.

So this topic has overreached it's use and now we're moving to irrelevant things that aren't based on any established facts or experience or are even consistent with the contention that Igbo was never used as an ethnographic term. We've established that it was, in whatever forms people may have, so I think the thread can move on before we start hearing about Hebrews, because it looks like that's what's coming next.

bigfrancis21: Can you tell us the meaning of Ikwieno or Ikwiano, since I personally have not come across such a name/surname spelling in Igboland before?

No. I personally cannot (nor would even) try to offer up a meaning for "Ikwieno/Ikwiano" for two reasons:

1) I am not a member of the region/community where the name "Ikwieno/Ikwiano" could possibly have been borne (provided we work under the assumption that Gustavus Vassa's accounts are genuine).
2) The name bears no semblance to anything recognizable to me; neither is it contemporary.

Essentially, it is really not my place to ascribe a meaning to what I do not know. All I did was approximate a converion by orthography.

ezeagu: So this topic has overreached it's use and now we're moving to irrelevant things that aren't based on any established facts or experience or are even consistent with the contention that Igbo was never used as an ethnographic term. We've established that it was, in whatever forms people may have, so I think the thread can move on before we start hearing about Hebrews, because it looks like that's what's coming next.

lol that Hebrew nonsense.

Anyway, there is something that I have been curious about, regarding the use of "Igbo". Has anyone ever done any research or managed to come across any explanation as to how and why Europeans came to ethnographically apply the term "Igbo" during the slave trading era? So far, it has been established that a significant number of slaves were unfamiliar the term, before entering slavery. Likewise, a number of communities did not begin to use the word until the late 19th/early 20th century. So what do we know?

Dibiachukwu:
Oye ibo (Bush person) -> Oye ibo (slave)(mockery) -> Oyibo (foreigner/white). Oye ibo is also a very popular slur in ibom(calabar) area, used to mock Igbos.
The part on bold, lends a little more credence to the yoruba claims. It is not a hidden that benin sold and had Igbo slaves. Benin and Ijo are a yoroboid people. And it makes perfect sense that they often raided the bushes. This same scenario is also applicable in the igbo-mina area. Asaba has a lot of bini influence. Igbo doesn't mean slave or bush (it has no meaning) in central Igbo. The yoroboids have a meaning for Igbo. Bini is a yoroboid state. It makes a lot of sense that Igbo meaning slave is a borrowed word from bini. If not, Asaba people that consider themselves Igbo; are calling themselves slaves. As I said before, I consider places like Asaba to be very heterogeneous. It is unknown (to me), if this heterogeneity; translates to straight up gene mixtures.

An Asaba man personally told me that himself. They used it to refer to the people east of the Niger who sold themselves off as slaves. That that was why they found it difficult accepting the name 'Igbo' at first. In Ika Igbo, 'Igbo' also means 'slave'.

Honestly, I don't know where you get all these claims from. Who told you that Benin and Ijaw people are yoruboid? In fact, how old are you to begin with?

I guess I'll avoid your statements from now on because you always make no sense.

bigfrancis21:

An Asaba man personally told me that himself. They used it to refer to the people east of the Niger who sold themselves off as slaves. That that was why they found it difficult accepting the name 'Igbo' at first. In Ika Igbo, 'Igbo' also means 'slave'.

Honestly, I don't know where you get all these claims from. Who told you that Benin and Ijaw people are yoruboid? In fact, how old are you to begin with?

I guess I'll avoid your statements from now on because you always make no sense.

There is no sense in what you are saying. You mean the slaves came and sold them as slaves. OK. Thats interesting. Do you know how close asaba is to benin. Benin was one of the powerful kingdoms around then. And Asaba was tributary to it. I don't know any kingdom east of the Niger, that could pull such a feat.

ChinenyeN:
lol that Hebrew nonsense.

Anyway, there is something that I have been curious about, regarding the use of "Igbo". Has anyone ever done any research or managed to come across any explanation as to how and why Europeans came to ethnographically apply the term "Igbo" during the slave trading era? So far, it has been established that a significant number of slaves were unfamiliar the term, before entering slavery. Likewise, a number of communities did not begin to use the word until the late 19th/early 20th century. So what do we know?

Our dearest opinions may not abrogate the opinions of others on a contentious belief. Anyone's belief can turn out to be a dogma or an empirical truth in the face of convincing facts. The 'hebraic claim' thus deserve 'benefit of the doubt' until proof show otherwise, as large chunk of data (other than slave-trade historionics) still elude our (African) historians. That does not mean africans are people not capable of self-rediscovery...

bigfrancis21:

An Asaba man personally told me that himself. They used it to refer to the people east of the Niger who sold themselves off as slaves. That that was why they found it difficult accepting the name 'Igbo' at first. In Ika Igbo, 'Igbo' also means 'slave'.

Honestly, I don't know where you get all these claims from. Who told you that Benin and Ijaw people are yoruboid? In fact, how old are you to begin with?

I guess I'll avoid your statements from now on because you always make no sense.

Ika Igbo 'slave' is Igbon (nasalisation) which is loan from Edo, not like 'Igbo' which is not nasalised and has a different tone.

bigfrancis21:


Nobody is saying the Yoruba are descended from Fulani. The discussion is that the general name 'Yoruba' is of Fulani origin.

Doesn't sound like that.

If you look at the fulani syntax, the way they structure their words does not rhyme with the way yoruba is structured.

Not all yorubas are from oduduwa. Oduduwa met some people in ile ife when he arrived.

tpiah01:


Doesn't sound like that.

If you look at the fulani syntax, the way they structure their words does not rhyme with the way yoruba is structured.

That is because the languages are in two very different sub-families.

Yoruba is Tonal whilst Fulfulde (all dialects of Fulfulde) is not really a tonal language.

true.

in fact, to me, it looks like the other way round, ie Fulani sounds more like a word that was adapted or derived from Yoruba. It's tonal, and has as many vowels as consonants.


i could be wrong of course.


According to wiki which i just looked up, the word Fulani is a Hausa adaptation.

juman:
Not all yorubas are from oduduwa. Oduduwa met some people in ile ife when he arrived.

The people he met in Ile-Ife where do they come from ?

tpiah01:
true.

in fact, to me, it looks like the other way round, ie Fulani sounds more like a word that was adapted or derived from Yoruba. It's tonal, and has as many vowels as consonants.


i could be wrong of course.


According to wiki which i just looked up, the word Fulani is a Hausa adaptation.

Fulfulde comes from "Fulbe" or Fulani people which is what we call ourselves. The language is called Fulfulde in Cameroon, Nigeria, Chad, Mali, Niger, Burkina Faso, Rep of Benin, Ghana, Togo, and called Pular/Pulaar in Senegal, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Sierra Leone, Mauritania.

It's possible that Yoruba is derived from Fulfulde, as ba is a very common word in Fulfulde. The Ba'en is a sub-group of Fulani people for example and Ba/Bah is also a Fulani surname, Yori or Yore in Fulfulde means dry though I don't think that is it. Maybe I can have more input from my other Fulani bros Bororojo e OmarBah.

tpiah01:
true.

in fact, to me, it looks like the other way round, ie Fulani sounds more like a word that was adapted or derived from Yoruba. It's tonal, and has as many vowels as consonants.


i could be wrong of course.


According to wiki which i just looked up, the word Fulani is a Hausa adaptation.

It has been noticeable that some Yorubas would readily agree that elements of commonality between them and other tribes must come from them but yet find it difficult to admit that some elements of their culture might be borrowed from elsewhere.

Fulaman198:


Fulfulde comes from "Fulbe" or Fulani people which is what we call ourselves. The language is called Fulfulde in Cameroon, Nigeria, Chad, Mali, Niger, Burkina Faso, Rep of Benin, Ghana, Togo, and called Pular/Pulaar in Senegal, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Sierra Leone, Mauritania.

It's possible that Yoruba is derived from Fulfulde, as ba is a very common word in Fulfulde. The Ba'en is a sub-group of Fulani people for example and Ba/Bah is also a Fulani surname, Yori or Yore in Fulfulde means dry though I don't think that is it. Maybe I can have more input from my other Fulani bros Bororojo e OmarBah.

well, that's interesting but as you can see, Fulfulde has double consonants at some points, but Fulani is evenly divided between vowels and consonants, indicating both words might be from different roots, possibly with Ful ( a variant of Peul ) as a prefix.

just guessing here.

It has been noticeable that some Yorubas would readily agree that elements of commonality between them and other tribes must come from them but yet find it difficult to admit that some elements of their culture might be borrowed from elsewhere.

not at all:

https://www.nairaland.com/939854/common-yoruba-words-borrowed-arabic

https://www.nairaland.com/771374/similar-words-between-hausa-yoruba

tpiah01:




well, that's interesting but as you can see, Fulfulde has double consonants at some points, but Fulani is evenly divided between vowels and consonants, indicating both words might be from different roots, possibly with Ful ( a variant of Peul ) as a prefix.

just guessing here.

Peul is the French word for Fulani from the neighbouring Wolof ethnic group Pel.

To quote myself in an earlier post.....

itstpia8:
Tribes are used to refer to people who are colonized.


Its not necessarily derogatory, but used more as an identifier to know which ethnicity, ideology or country they identify with more.

Personally my issue isn't about the extent to which the term is derogatory or not, it's the extent to which it distorts the issue at hand.

To piggyback off of axum...

axum post=29034711:
Somalis only have one Tribe. We are All Somali, but we have many clans. Clans make up a tribe. Since we are one tribe as Somalis, we don't really use the word tribe but rather just the word Somali.

Most African people were lineages who communicated with other lineages through family heads(representatives) and common trading markets. Europeans would say all these people who may ordinarily not be seen as "one people" as a tribe because they shared words & interacted together or had the same "material culture" some times even if they spoke different dialects.

One lineage could also serve as the central nexus point for the other 8-12 lineages who again might not consider themselves "one people" but interact together for mutual benefit**politics**. Europeans would come down and say these people are all the "tribe" of that central nexus lineage reguardless of how they saw themselves.


Sidenote:
If those same Europeans come down and blowup the political balance that those lineages made for themselves, then calling that tribalism is missing the larger point.

Fulaman198:


Peul is the French word for Fulani from the neighbouring Wolof ethnic group Pel.

What is the Fulani word for Fulani?

tpiah01:


What is the Fulani word for Fulani?

Fulbe - plural and Pullo - Singular

Ok,