5solas:

You delight in going in circles! It does! That's why I said you fell. Not from grace! I believe you have never had that!
How do I begin? How can we compare Scripture with Scripture when you believe part of Scripture is wrong?

Not intentional trust me, I am trying to probe you to understand exactly where you are coming from.

Let me use a more direct method - do you believe I can be saved without agreeing with any of the aforementioned concepts/doctrines ?

Thanks.

frosbel:

Man can keep the Law by the Spirit of God as loudly proclaimed in Romans 8:1-4

You goofed. It says quite the opposite! No wonder you reach the same false conclusion.

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

8:3
We aren't saved from sin's grasp by knowing the commandments of God, because we can't and don't keep them, but God put into effect a different plan to save us. He sent his own Son in a human body like ours-except that ours are sinful-and destroyed sin's control over us by giving himself as a sacrifice for our sins.

TLB

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, = For what the law could not do, because we couldn't keep it,

frosbel:


Not intentional trust me, I am trying to probe you to understand exactly where you are coming from.

Let me use a more direct method - do you believe I can be saved without agreeing with any of the aforementioned concepts/doctrines ?

Thanks.

I do, after all it is the Lord that saves and there are so many things we don't know which we get to know after our salvation. But the saved do not go about gainsaying Scripture as you do. So don't kid yourself you are saved.
Those the Lord determined to save, He grants faith. So don't think believing in Christ is not involved, it is the means by which He saves.

2 Peter 2:20-22

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." NIV

Will they be saved? Was it the action/works of this people that made them loose salvation? Could there works/actions contribute to there not being condemned?

Heb 10:26-29

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? NIV

Will such ones be saved? Did there actions/works affect there fate? If they had refrained from deliberate sin, could it have affected there fate?

You all dont get it... Frosbel no longer believe the bible god is the real deal. he's agnostic now and can never go back.

johnydon22:
You all dont get it... Frosbel no longer believe the bible god is the real deal. he's agnostic now and can never go back.

Wrong my brother .

I believe that he is the God of the universe , but that he may be known by other names in other cultures such as Chineke in Igbo or Olorun in Yoruba etc. in other words he is the God of all mankind and not exclusive to the Jews.

Sorry to bust your bubble

JMAN05:
2 Peter 2:20-22

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." NIV

Will they be saved? Was it the action/works of this people that made them loose salvation? Could there works/actions contribute to there not being condemned?

Heb 10:26-29

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? NIV

Will such ones be saved? Did there actions/works affect there fate? If they had refrained from deliberate sin, could it have affected there fate?

Good quotes .

I hope our sister and brother can explain how this relates to the once saved always saved concept.

frosbel:



Good quotes .

I hope our sister and brother can explain how this relates to the once saved always saved concept.

Frosbel has arrived at Once saved always saved argument, what will you not contend with in scripture just to prove Jesus isn't the only way to God?

I will ask you brief questions about the post you referred to up there.

1) what audience did Peter primarily address his epistle to?

2) was the book of Hebrews addressing the church or the jews who were mixing The idea of Jesus and His grace with their old legalism and sacrificial laws of the past?

If you understand these questions let alone answering it, explaining those part of scripture will be breeze.

frosbel:


Wrong my brother .

I believe that he is the God of the universe , but that he may be known by other names in other cultures such as Chineke in Igbo or Olorun in Yoruba etc. in other words he is the God of all mankind and not exclusive to the Jews.

Sorry to bust your bubble

lmao still clinging to ur old beliefs... hehehehehehe. what made you think chineke in igbo is same as yahweh... sorry to burst ur bubbles too but yahweh aint same as chineke in igbo, olorun in yoruba... why dont you also say yahweh is same as baal and dagon... these are different cultures and differents gods...simple.

P

johnydon22:


lmao still clinging to ur old beliefs... hehehehehehe. what made you think chineke in igbo is same as yahweh... sorry to burst ur bubbles too but yahweh aint same as chineke in igbo, olorun in yoruba... why dont you also say yahweh is same as baal and dagon... these are different cultures and differents gods...simple.

Or Allah.

johnydon22:


lmao still clinging to ur old beliefs... hehehehehehe. what made you think chineke in igbo is same as yahweh... sorry to burst ur bubbles too but yahweh aint same as chineke in igbo, olorun in yoruba... why dont you also say yahweh is same as baal and dagon... these are different cultures and differents gods...simple.

What we know is that there is ONE God no matter what name he is called by , I think the bible misrepresents this God in some of the most profound ways possible.

5solas:


I do, after all it is the Lord that saves and there are so many things we don't know which we get to know after our salvation. But the saved do not go about gainsaying Scripture as you do. So don't kid yourself you are saved.
Those the Lord determined to save, He grants faith. So don't think believing in Christ is not involved, it is the means by which He saves.

I am sure God stands for TRUTH and therefore will not want any of us to believe a LIE or accept an error as a thing that is permissible.

Still, I ask you and your fellow believers, where in the entire bible is the virgin birth and trinity given by the apostles as a pre-condition for salvation ? Would you agree that these positions are not from the apostles or God but from church tradition ?

frosbel:


What we know is that there is ONE God no matter what name he is called by , I think the bible misrepresents this God in some of the most profound ways possible.

xo zeus, amadioha, poseidon, horus, vishnu, allah, yahweh, dagon, chomosh, osiris, seth etc are actually one god with different names? and not different gody entities?

JMAN05:
2 Peter 2:20-22

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." NIV

Will they be saved? Was it the action/works of this people that made them loose salvation? Could there works/actions contribute to there not being condemned?

Heb 10:26-29

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? NIV

Will such ones be saved? Did there actions/works affect there fate? If they had refrained from deliberate sin, could it have affected there fate?

Please let's continue this talk here-https://www.nairaland.com/1908930/once-saved-always-saved-false .

frosbel:



Good quotes .

I hope our sister and brother can explain how this relates to the once saved always saved concept.

Let's continue it in full here-https://www.nairaland.com/1908930/once-saved-always-saved-false/8#29482107.

frosbel:


I am sure God stands for TRUTH and therefore will not want any of us to believe a LIE or accept an error as a thing that is permissible.

Still, I ask you and your fellow believers, where in the entire bible is the virgin birth and trinity given by the apostles as a pre-condition for salvation ? Would you agree that these positions are not from the apostles or God but from church tradition ?

I wonder why you are even asking this question. And you will end up with a false conclusion- A, is a commandment of God, therefore a violation of A leads to lose of salvation without repentance.
Goshen gave you up to ten translations of that verse which talked of a virgin giving birth or have you forgotten that? That's for a start..

5solas:


I wonder why you are even asking this question. And you will end up with a false conclusion- A, is a commandment of God, therefore a violation of A leads to lose of salvation without repentance.
Goshen gave you up to ten translations of that verse which talked of a virgin giving birth or have you forgotten that? That's for a start..

I am still going back to respond to Goshen, I have been tied up with that ignoramus of a Vooks and his mentor BabaGnoni.

Bottom line though is that the Virgin birth is a myth but more importantly not a condition for salvation.

frosbel:


I am still going back to respond to Goshen, I have been tied up with that ignoramus of a Vooks and his mentor BabaGnoni.

Bottom line though is that the Virgin birth is a myth but more importantly not a condition for salvation.

OK. I wonder though how you expect to prove anything from the Scriptures when you don't believe in parts of it.
Can you lists the ''conditions of salvation'' or at least some of them, please.

This is what you get when you embark on skepticism with half a brain.

Demand proof from scriptures and when any is adduced you summarily dismiss it as fabrication.

Frosbel is not smart. Before engaging him,aks him which parts are genuine and which are fabrication.

5solas:


OK. I wonder though how you expect to prove anything from the Scriptures when you don't believe in parts of it/
Can you lists the ''conditions of salvation'' or some of them, please.

^^

I smell wounded pride !

frosbel:
^^

I smell wounded pride !

I am waiting to see how you can come up with a list without showing your ignorance. Still waiting.

vooks:

This is what you get when you embark on skepticism with half a brain.

Demand proof from scriptures and when any is adduced you summarily dismiss it as fabrication.

Frosbel is not smart. Before engaging him,aks him which parts are genuine and which are fabrication.

An eel is not slippery compared to him!

Give a man a fish and he will eat
for a day; teach a man to fish and
he will eat for a lifetime; give a
man religion and he will die
praying for a fish.

godsgift233:
Give a man a fish and he will eat
for a day; teach a man to fish and
he will eat for a lifetime; give a
man religion and he will die
praying for a fish.

so true.....

godsgift233:
Give a man a fish and he will eat
for a day; teach a man to fish and
he will eat for a lifetime; give a
man religion and he will die
praying for a fish.

hahahahahaha asin eeeehn so so truer than true.

Frosbel you are yet to comment on this thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzzg7yENTtg

https://www.nairaland.com/2069891/frosbel-relate-christian

frosbel:
I am still going back to respond to Goshen,
I have been tied up with that ignoramus of a Vooks and his mentor BabaGnoni.

Bottom line though is that the Virgin birth is a myth but more importantly not a condition for salvation.

vooks and I, tend to come up with the same ideas or similar ideas at the same.

so no wonder in the beginning, we were repeatedly mistaken for each other.

vooks loves many, trusts few (i.e. obviously, you, frosbel, to some degree, currently aren't included in the trusted list) and always paddles his own canoe
He is his own man, has his own mind, a great mind for that matter and so cannot be anyones mentee

The Virgin birth is NOT a myth.

The Virgin birth is not and/or might not be a condition for salvation, it, HOWEVER, is PIVOTAL to the development of the salvation process and to the success of salvation too

frosbel, I know you are to some extent IT software literate.
Tell us, what is the implication of damaged or corrupt normal.dot file? (i.e. the default Microsoft Word template)
How do you fix it or salvage the situation, in order for you to successfully create your spankingly creative and worth the Pulitzer prize word document(s)?
Why did you have to or needed to fix or salvage the situation?

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that
in the last times some will turn away from the true faith;
they will follow deceptive spirits
and teachings that come from demons.
- 1 Timothy 4:1 NLT

It appears you're romanticizing with the devil and it's actually you taking counsel from the "pit of hell"
It's you finding the devil to be a mentor

Be careful frosbel, because when you go on the merry-go-round with the devil, you might not get the chance to get off
- the devil doesn't care about your feelings of "truth seeking" and takes no prisoners on amusement rides

Thank you BabaGnoni,
Our Amateur Skeptic is behaving like a young student. You step out of lecture hall with new jargon, terms and concepts and you can't wait to bare them to the world. You actually believe you are the FIRST and the world can't wait to savor your 'wisdom'. The first time I heard about Sanguines and Cholerics, I used to profile everyone and everything around me trying to fit them into these personality types.

Liberal theology leads you exactly where Frosbel is; doubting EVERYTHING. You graduate from bible study to biblical studies. You quarrel everyone who does not share your doubts. At this point, only fear of stigma and doubts in your doubts force you to maintain the Christian tag. Next, you go full blown. You are now an atheist. Here, you spend a better part of your life fighting God who does not exist. You are an anti theist. You project your fears and doubts on believers, you want to 'win' as many as possible. This is the only way you have of reassuring you that you are right; converting others.

Frosbel, cut the BS and cross over. Fence sitting is for sissies and cowards

BabaGnoni:


vooks and I, tend to come up with the same ideas or similar ideas at the same.

so no wonder in the beginning, we were repeatedly mistaken for each other.

vooks loves many, trusts few (i.e. obviously, you, frosbel, to some degree, currently aren't included in the trusted list) and always paddles his own canoe
He is his own man, has his own mind, a great mind for that matter and so cannot be anyones mentee

The Virgin birth is NOT a myth.

The Virgin birth is not and/or might not be a condition for salvation, it, HOWEVER, is PIVOTAL to the development of the salvation process and to the success of salvation too

frosbel, I know you are to some extent IT software literate.
Tell us, what is the implication of damaged or corrupt normal.dot file? (i.e. the default Microsoft Word template)
How do you fix it or salvage the situation, in order for you to successful create your word document?

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that
in the last times some will turn away from the true faith;
they will follow deceptive spirits
and teachings that come from demons.
- 1 Timothy 4:1 NLT

It appears you're romanticizing with the devil and it's actually you taking counsel from the "pit of hell"
It's you finding the devil to be a mentor

Be careful frosbel, because when you go on the merry-go-round with the devil, you might not get the chance to get off
- the devil doesn't care about your feelings of "truth seeking" and takes no prisoners on amusement rides

vooks:
Thank you BabaGnoni,
Our Amateur Skeptic is behaving like a young student. You step out of lecture hall with new jargon, terms and concepts and you can't wait to bare them to the world. You actually believe you are the FIRST and the world can't wait to savor your 'wisdom'. The first time I heard about Sanguines and Cholerics, I used to profile everyone and everything around me trying to fit them into these personality types.

Liberal theology leads you exactly where Frosbel is; doubting EVERYTHING. You graduate from bible study to biblical studies. You quarrel everyone who does not share your doubts. At this point, only fear of stigma and doubts in your doubts force you to maintain the Christian tag. Next, you go full blown. You are now an atheist. Here, you spend a better part of your life fighting God who does not exist. You are an anti theist. You project your fears and doubts on believers, you want to 'win' as many as possible. This is the only way you have of reassuring you that you are right; converting others.

Frosbel, cut the BS and cross over. Fence sitting is for sissies and cowards

Lol, you must place a high value on your ignorance !

Put it this way, some of us refuse to be controlled by religious mumbo jumbo that makes no sense except to either the brainwashed or religiously dogmatic fanatics.

Keep believing that snakes and donkeys talk and I will continue to rip apart at the heart of your fallacious dogmas.

Expect more ground breaking stuff in the next few days/weeks.

I wanted to sympathize with your intellectual shallowness but then again, how often do rocks produce water?

frosbel:


Lol, you must place a high value on your ignorance !

Put it this way, some of us refuse to be controlled by religious mumbo jumbo that makes no sense except to either the brainwashed or religiously dogmatic fanatics.

Keep believing that snakes and donkeys talk and I will continue to rip apart at the heart of your fallacious dogmas.

Expect more ground breaking stuff in the next few days/weeks.

...apologies all for not reading through all the posts prior to responding - just came across this now

frosbel:

Starting with the ones you know and that I hold to be myth ;

- trinity
- Virgin birth
- hell fire and heaven
- tithes and offerings
- compulsory church attendance
- one pastor leadership model

The first three are doctrinal questions, the second three are questions of practice and "religion" (Although I appreciate that dodgy practice oft times emanates from faulty doctrine).

I'll start wirth the 2nd three;
As my early posting history will show, I also reject all three of these practices - indeed, it was my research into the doctrine of a compulsory tithe that led me to NL in 2006. Indeed, it's from scripture itself that you can show that these are wrong. That is not to reject Christinaity, it's to rightly eschew man-made religion.

The fact men - as men are wont to do - have introduced bad practice into the faith should not move you (assuming these men are actually of the faith, regardless of what they claim). If anything my faith is now stronger than when I was embedded in the institutional church.

The first 3
- Trinity; I've never really looked at to closely and is instinctively odd to me. I worship God in Christ Jesus, and believe that Jesus is fully God; guess I'm a Duotarian
- Hellfire & Heaven; Is it the question of eternal burning? ! I used to fear this; I'm prone to believe in annihilation.
- Virgin birth; without this - along with the death and ressurection - there is simply no Christianity. Presumbaly you don't believe the biblical account of Adams creation either?

In all, true christian faith is experientail and revelatory. You'll never be fully persuaded by reading articles and "scholarly" works. I am dfully at ease with the fact that there are some somethings, I don't know, some I haven't fully considered and even some I may not ever get to. I don't question God, I let God answer my questions. I believe and place my faith in Him to lead me and reveal things to me as required. That's faith.

frosbel:

These ones are bad enough, but the most serious ones are attempts by some gospel writers to tie their accounts to prophecies that do not exist , are half-complete or not related in any form or shape. None of the gospel writers were eye witnesses of the events surrounding Jesus , they were mostly anonymous authors who took on the name of popular people like Matthew , John etc.

The oldest gospel is Mark around 70ad with Matthew and Luke following and lastly John. John's gospel imbibed elements of gnosticism and Hellenistic belief to tell the story of Jesus to a mostly Greek audience. Matthew no doubt copied from Mark and made some refinements , many of which were presumptuous interpolations to deify Jesus and remove Mark's tendency to make Jesus look like he did not know everything. The account of Jesus's death and resurrection are not aligned and portray serious inconsistencies that cannot be overlooked.

I am still studying and will form a final summary of my findings and stance in the near future.

I still believe in Christ as the Messiah and his ultimate resurrection purely because of Paul. Paul's letters predate the gospels and were written nearer to the time of Jesus by as much as 20 years or so. This means he must have had real contact with the original apostles as he states , and was the one person who was able to articulate the whole concept of Jesus's death, burial, resurrection and purpose into a logical sequence of events pointing to the good news and God's ultimate plan for mankind.

By the way Peter did not write the epistles of Peter because he was an unlettered fisherman considering that the epistle was written in classic Greek which only the elites of that day could do.

Too many to mention, I am still going on ........".

This second part is somewhat woolly. Does the gosel, scriptural narrative and Gods eternal purpose not hang together from your perspective?

I see no real issues here and actually think if you are truly seeking you'll find your way back - if you have faith, He'll lead you. I can but testify.

Godspeed
TV

TV01:
...apologies all for not reading through all the posts prior to responding - just came across this now



The first three are doctrinal questions, the second three are questions of practice and "religion" (Although I appreciate that dodgy practice oft times emanates from faulty doctrine).

I'll start wirth the 2nd three;
As my early posting history will show, I also reject all three of these practices - indeed, it was my research into the doctrine of a compulsory tithe that led me to NL in 2006. Indeed, it's from scripture itself that you can show that these are wrong. That is not to reject Christinaity, it's to rightly eschew man-made religion.

The fact men - as men are wont to do - have introduced bad practice into the faith should not move you (assuming these men are actually of the faith, regardless of what thye claim). If anything my faith is now stronger than when I was embedded in the institutional church.

The first 3
- Trinity; I've never really looked at to closely and is instinctively odd to me. I worship God in Christ Jesus, and believe that Jesus is fully God; guess I'm a Duotarian
- Hellfire & Heaven; Is it the question of eternal burning? ! I used to fear this; I'm prone to believe in annihilation.
- Virgin birth; without this - along with the death and ressurection - there is simply no Christianity.

In all, true christian faith is experientail and revelatory. You'll never be fully persuaded by reading articles and "scholarly" works. I am dfully at ease with the fact that there are some somethings, I don't know, some I haven't fully considered and even some I may not ever get to. I don't question God, I let God answer my questions. I believe and place my faith in Him to lead me and reveal things to me as required. That's faith.


This second part is somewhat wooly. Does the gosel, scriptural narrative and Gods eternal purpose not hag together from your perspective?

I see no real issues here and actually think if you are truly seeking you'll find your way back - if you have faith, He'll lead you. I can but testify.

Godspeed
TV

Sup bro? Longest time!