frank317:


Seriously Did he pretend not t see this perfect response?

ayoku777:
I think we need to go back to the basics.

I noticed no one else has given their own definition of predestination.

Maybe if we all give our own definition of predestination, we can start from there to know where exactly the disagreement is coming from.

This my definition of predestination based on scriptural usage and application.

PREDESTINATION (Proorizo): is the predeterminate will of God for a man. It is what God created and called a man to be and to do from the foundations of the earth.

This is my definition of predestination based on the scriptural application of the word.

If others can give their own definition of predestination, we will take it from there. Then we can see if predestination always happens no matter the person's choices or step of action -or if a man's choices can alter it.

johnydon22:


predestination as given by the dictionary (theology) The doctrine that everything has been foreordained by a God…

Now we have gotten the definition of what predestination really is from the ENGLISH DICTIONARY... now tell me

If everything have been foreordained tell me how man still have freewill since all you do must go according that invisible plan already foreordained for you... If man have freewill how can everything be foreordained by any deity...

frank317:


Guy pls stop trying to confuse us with ur own definition of predestination.... Like I said before we all know what we are talking about... Does God know the end from the beginning? Lets use foreknowledge instead of predestination for the sake of understanding.

All I am saying is that God cannot have foreknowledge of the future and at the same time humans still have free will.

Its like saying that someone is married and at the same time a bachelor.

If God has for knowledge, can that foreknowledge not come to pass?

I am repeating this question for the third time yet without no answer. After this I will consider it that you don't know.

ayoku777:


Fine.

Now Proorizo which is the greek word translated predestination in scripture means God's predetermined will.

And I gave example of that will being, God not wanting any man to perish but to come to the knowledge of the truth. Also that God would have all men to be saved.

Meaning God's will for man is not always done since ALL men are not saved.

That is why I said from the beginning that in the scriptures, predestination is not cast in iron. God's will is not always done.

Beacuse if God's will is always done, then all men will be born again and every born again christian will be christlike. For that is God's will for every man.

That is the usage and application of predestination in scripture.

ayoku777:


You most probably have not carefully read through all I've been saying.

God's foreknowledge of a thing can never be wrong and I've never said it can. But I've maintained that foreknowledge is not predestination. That God knows what you will do doesn't mean He's the one that predestined you to do it.

So you believe "freewill" is a lie and man has no freewill over his choices?

Let me ask you. Is it God that predestines people to go to hell, or they go there by the choices of their own freewill?

Its not a trick question. I just want to understand your idea of God.

Is it God that predestines people to go to hell, or they go there by the choices of their own freewill?

ayoku777:


Sorry sir,

We can't do away with predestination just because you can't wrap your head round its scriptural application.

Foreknowledge is not the same thing as predestination. So we can't use foreknowledge instead of predestination. They mean different things entirely.

And I've answered your question please. I said God's foreknowledge of a thing cannot be wrong , but that doesn't mean he predestined that thing.

frank317:


Nice... This means u accept that the fact that God knows (has foreknowledge) that I will go to hell, and his foreknowledge cannot b wrong, that means no matter the amount of free will I have... I must go to hell.

Pls answer yes or no.

ayoku777:


You question was making sense until this line.

It is still your freewill that takes you to hell not God. God only forknew that you would choose to go to hell.

But the answer to your question is yes. God's foreknowledge of our choices is never wrong. So if God foreknows you will choose to go to hell, then it means you will. Not that He predestined you for hell, but you chose by your own freewill to go there. God only foreknew you will make that choice.

Knowing what someone will do does not mean or imply that you made them do it. That's why I said foreknowledge is not predestination.

If you get this, then we are good.

johnydon22:


Common dude stop all this.

If God already knows he will go to hell and it can never be wrong, whether he choose to or not he will surely go to hell cus God cannot be wrong..

Why do you guys always contradicting yourselves...

If God knows the guy will choose to go to hell (remember he can never be wrong) and frank317 in his freewill chooses to go to heaven instead.. it means God's foreknowledge was wrong.

But if God's foreknowledge can never be wrong, then it means frank have no choice at all cus he will surely go to hell cus God can never be wrong...

ayoku777:


But the answer to your question is yes. God's foreknowledge of our choices is never wrong. So if God foreknows you will choose to go to hell, then it means you will. Not that He predestined you for hell, but you chose by your own freewill to go there. God only foreknew you will make that choice.

ayoku777:

Now, he can choose to truly face his studies and graduate with good grades or he can play away his time, drop out of school and go his own way.

Now, I also know that he will choose the latter. To play away his time, drop out and go his way. Infact I know he will drop out of school in 200 level.

Predestination is my will for him. The destiny I want him to fulfil. The thing I want him to be and do. Which is to study, graduate with good grades and get a nice job with a reputable firm. Which I've even gone ahead to secure for him.

Freewill is his power of choice to decide to be and to do what I want him to be and do; or for him to do his own thing and go his own way.

Foreknowledge is my ability to know what choice he will make with his freewill. Whether he will follow my plan and my will for him or not. Which in this case I know he will not follow my plans for him.

But the answer to your question is yes. God's foreknowledge of our choices is never wrong. So if God foreknows you will choose to go to hell, then it means you will. Not that He predestined you for hell, but you chose by your own freewill to go there. God only foreknew you will make that choice.

timmy2409:


Yet again, this is where your logic fails. You're not omniscient as God is, so you do not and cannot know for a fact that your son will fail.

Sure, you can extrapolate based on his temperament, attitude and current outlook on life that he is likely to fail in school, but you cannot know for sure that he will. Whatever conclusions you draw are merely predictions and can only be measured as a diminutive percentage of absolute certainty.

On the other hand, God is omniscient so he not only knows with absolute certainty that your son will fail in school, he also knows the exact sequence of actions that will lead to this failure, what his exact final GPA will be and how many times he will eat rice during the semester.

Now frank asked you earlier, if God knows a future event, can it not come to pass? And you answered this:



I am willing to assume that you are simply getting bogged down in the various terminology (foreknow, predestine), so let's discard them momentarily. I'll ask a simple question and I want you to answer without using either of those terms.

Here it is:

I am driving down a road that splits into two paths at an intersection. God, knowing the future, possesses the knowledge that I would take the left path. On getting to the intersection, can I choose to take the right path?

ayoku777:


You most probably have not carefully read through all I've been saying.

ayoku777:

God's foreknowledge of a thing can never be wrong and I've never said it can. But I've maintained that foreknowledge is not predestination. That God knows what you will do doesn't mean He's the one that predestined you to do it.

ayoku777:

So you believe "freewill" is a lie and man has no freewill over his choices?

ayoku777:

Let me ask you. Is it God that predestines people to go to hell, or they go there by the choices of their own freewill?

ayoku777:


You totally missed the whole point of my father-son parable. But that's ok.

And again, you're wrong, I'm not bogged down by anything. My explanations of foreknowledge and predestination are so clear and lucid. I'm just shocked its sounding like rocket science to some. And you only want to discard them for your sake because you don't understand them and can't argue against them well. That's ok too.

Now to answer your question.

You can't take the right path.

Why? Your choice determines God's foreknowledge. God can only foreknow what you will choose. God cannot foreknow you choosing left if you will eventually choose right. It is what you will choose that God can foreknow.

So if God foreknows you choosing left, then its because left is what you will choose. If you would choose right then God would foreknow you choosing right.

Your choice determines God's foreknowledge. What you will choose determines what God foreknows.

ayoku777:


You question was making sense until this line.

It is still your freewill that takes you to hell not God. God only forknew that you would choose to go to hell.

But the answer to your question is yes. God's foreknowledge of our choices is never wrong. So if God foreknows you will choose to go to hell, then it means you will. Not that He predestined you for hell, but you chose by your own freewill to go there. God only foreknew you will make that choice.

Knowing what someone will do does not mean or imply that you made them do it. That's why I said foreknowledge is not predestination.

If you get this, then we are good.

ayoku777:


Let me explain it step by step this way:

PREDESTINATION (Proorizo) God's predetermined will for a man. What He created a man to be an do.

Let me show you examples in scriptures of God's will for man.

2Peter 3v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning His promises, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.

God's will for everyman is for none to perish and for every to come to repentance.
The atheists on the thread, sadly, seem to understand the salient points better than you.

1Timothy 2v3-4 -For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; who will have ALL MEN SAVED, and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God's will is for ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the true knowledge of Christ.

FREEWILL: This is a man's power of choice or right of decision to choose to submit to God's will for his life or go his own way and do his own thing.

Everyone who is in hell or will go to hell will do so because of this factor -freewill. Because it is not God's will for any man to perish.

And it further goes to show that with freewill, God's will is not always done, and what He created a man to be and to do is not always fulfilled.

FOREKNOWLEDGE: This is God's ability to know beforehand what you will decide to do with the freewill and power of choice that He gave you.

God knows those who will reject or accept His offer of salvation in Christ Jesus. He knows those who will end up in hell and those who will make heaven.

But one thing you need to get straight is this all important fact: What God foreknows about what you will choose to do with your freewill is not decided by Him; and its not necessarily His predetermined will for you (predestination)

If a man goes to hell, God didn't predestine him for hell, the choices he made with his freewill took him to hell.

Infact Jesus said this concerning hell in:

Matthew 25v41 -Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.

Can you see? Notice hell was prepared only for Lucifer and his angels, not for any man. No man was predestined for hell. They go there of there own freewill.

So to answer your question; NO! I don't believe foreknowledge (what God knows beforehand about what you will do with your freewill) can change. But foreknowledge is not predestination. The two are different in scripture.

Predestination is what God created a man to be and do. Foreknowledge is what He knows you will be and do by the choices of your freewill.

But as I said earlier, God does not judge us by His foreknowledge, if He did, He would just create people and throw them straight into hell, without even letting them live out their lives, because He knows that's where they will end up anyway. But that will not be pure justice.

Justice is judging people by what they did, not by what you foreknew they would do.

You tried to make foreknowledge and predestination to mean the same thing. You are wrong!

You said "If I eat rice because God knows... That's predestination." No, you're far wrong; that's not predestination. You didn't eat rice BECAUSE God knows, you ate rice because you chose to eat rice. God just knew what you will choose; He didn't make you choose.

If you commit suicide, you chose to commit suicide. God only knew you will commit suicide, He didn't make you commit suicide or predestined you to commit suicide. You committed suicide of your own freewill.


Calling something the will of God, just because God knew it will happen is wrong. There are many things God knows will happen that are not His handiwork or even His will. Foreknowledge is not predestination.

If you want to know the meaning of a word in the bible, study how it was used and applied in the bible.

What God knows you will decide to be and do (foreknowledge) CAN BE DIFFERENT from what He created you to be and do (predestination).

God's foreknowledge of your choices doesn't mean He predestined you to make those choices. You make them of your own freewill. Get it now?

5solas:

It is impossible to walk through the maze you created up there.

An2elect2:
Free will is a lie from the pit of hell. Men always want to have a sense of control in everything and they bring this same attitude to Christianity. Little do they know that God is sovereign and in control of every thing in the universe including their closely guarded god they call free will. Did i contradict myself? well the message is not lost.

ayoku777:


You most probably have not carefully read through all I've been saying.

God's foreknowledge of a thing can never be wrong and I've never said it can. But I've maintained that foreknowledge is not predestination. That God knows what you will do doesn't mean He's the one that predestined you to do it.

So you believe "freewill" is a lie and man has no freewill over his choices?

Let me ask you. Is it God that predestines people to go to hell, or they go there by the choices of their own freewill?

Its not a trick question. I just want to understand your idea of God.

Is it God that predestines people to go to hell, or they go there by the choices of their own freewill?

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

johnydon22:

An2elect2:
God's foreknowledge according to His eternal decree determines our "choices" not the other way around.

5solas:

All men, by reason of the fall were supposed to end up in hell. However God in His mercies decided to save some . These are they referred to as elects . The rest He left to go the natural way they were going-hell.
1 Thess. 5:9

1Pet. 2

Jude

Rom.9

If you believe these men can ''change'' their destinies, then you obviously miss the point .

ayoku777:


You said free will is a lie from hell. Meaning even our "choices" are God's counsel, much like a "dummy freewill".

Do you believe this scriptures?

2Peter 3v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE.

Do you agree according to this scripture that God is not willing that any should perish?

Another scripture;

1Timothy 2v3-4 -For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; who will have ALL MEN SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Do you agree with this scripture also that its God good and acceptable will to have ALL MEN SAVED?

Do you agree or you disagree?

Now if God wants all men saved and none to perish, why then are many not saved and many have perished? If according to you man has no freewill and only God's counsel is done.