Welcome, Guest: Register On Nairaland / LOGIN! / Trending / Recent / NewStats: 3,194,829 members, 7,956,147 topics. Date: Monday, 23 September 2024 at 05:29 AM |
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? (10652 Views)
Has God Ever Done Any Irrefutable Miracle For You Before? Come In And Share / If You Had Been The One Creating Things, Humans, Will You Had Given 'freewill' ? / What Has God Done For You? (2) (3) (4)
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (Reply) (Go Down)
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by johnydon22(m): 2:17pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
frank317: Lolzzzzz |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by frank317: 2:21pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
ayoku777: Guy pls stop trying to confuse us with ur own definition of predestination.... Like I said before we all know what we are talking about... Does God know the end from the beginning? Lets use foreknowledge instead of predestination for the sake of understanding. All I am saying is that God cannot have foreknowledge of the future and at the same time humans still have free will. Its like saying that someone is married and at the same time a bachelor. If God has for knowledge, can that foreknowledge not come to pass? I am repeating this question for the third time yet without no answer. After this I will consider it that you don't know. |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 2:29pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
johnydon22: Fine. Now Proorizo which is the greek word translated predestination in scripture means God's predetermined will. And I gave example of that will being, God not wanting any man to perish but to come to the knowledge of the truth. Also that God would have all men to be saved. Meaning God's will for man is not always done since ALL men are not saved. That is why I said from the beginning that in the scriptures, predestination is not cast in iron. God's will is not always done. Beacuse if God's will is always done, then all men will be born again and every born again christian will be christlike. For that is God's will for every man. That is the usage and application of predestination in scripture. |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 2:33pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
frank317: Sorry sir, We can't do away with predestination just because you can't wrap your head round its scriptural application. Foreknowledge is not the same thing as predestination. So we can't use foreknowledge instead of predestination. They mean different things entirely. And I've answered your question please. I said God's foreknowledge of a thing cannot be wrong, but that doesn't mean he predestined that thing. |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by johnydon22(m): 2:46pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
ayoku777: certainly the predestination i defined is not the same you are yapping about here...I just need the Op to clarify you and tell you the predestinations he means since you bent on using your own biblical influenced definition of predestination and not that of the dictionary.. |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by wordcat(m): 4:20pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
ayoku777: Did your god knw dat they will go to hell even before they were born? It is not a trick question. I just want to understand ur idea abt god. |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by wordcat(m): 4:38pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
Omniscient and Freewill cannot go the same time. It is either god is Omniscient and man has NO freewill or that Man has Freewill and god is NOT Omniscient. End Of Story. See You Some Other Time, Bye-Bye. 1 Like |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by frank317: 5:30pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
ayoku777: Nice... This means u accept that the fact that God knows (has foreknowledge) that I will go to hell, and his foreknowledge cannot b wrong, that means no matter the amount of free will I have... I must go to hell. Pls answer yes or no. 1 Like |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 6:05pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
frank317: You question was making sense until this line. It is still your freewill that takes you to hell not God. God only forknew that you would choose to go to hell. But the answer to your question is yes. God's foreknowledge of our choices is never wrong. So if God foreknows you will choose to go to hell, then it means you will. Not that He predestined you for hell, but you chose by your own freewill to go there. God only foreknew you will make that choice. Knowing what someone will do does not mean or imply that you made them do it. That's why I said foreknowledge is not predestination. If you get this, then we are good. Shalom |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by johnydon22(m): 6:30pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
ayoku777: Common dude stop all this. If God already knows he will go to hell and it can never be wrong, whether he choose to or not he will surely go to hell cus God cannot be wrong.. Why do you guys always contradicting yourselves... If God knows the guy will choose to go to hell (remember he can never be wrong) and frank317 in his freewill chooses to go to heaven instead.. it means God's foreknowledge was wrong. But if God's foreknowledge can never be wrong, then it means frank have no choice at all cus he will surely go to hell cus God can never be wrong... 1 Like |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 6:48pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
johnydon22: Do you know the difference between foreknowledge and predestination? Or everything I've been saying all day about these two words just rolls off your back? |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by timmy2409(m): 6:49pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
GUYS I think I've solved this conundrum..... Seeing as my man ayoku777 is getting ever closer to employing the standard "we cannot understand the ways of God" copout, I thought I should offer some help. Here it is God has foreknowledge of EVERY single possibility of events EVER, but the universe as well as everything in it exists in some sort of Schroedinger's cat state, where frank317 can indeed be simultaneously eating only rice and only yam. NOTHING goes against God's will because it's all covered. Basically, for every action taken, there exists multiple alternate realities where alternatives of that action are taken simultaneously. And of course while frank317 is eating only rice in this reality, he is not aware of the other alternate reality frank317 that is eating only yam. God retains his omniscience, and we all retain our precious freewills ayouku777 You're welcome! |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by timmy2409(m): 7:04pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
ayoku777: |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 7:41pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
Seeing this thing is sounding like rocket science to some; let me make one final attempt to differentiate between predestination, freewill and foreknowledge. So let's say I have a son who just entered into the university. I already paid his tuition fees for the entire four years; and secured a job for him in a reputable firm owned by my brother. And I told him, "Son, I already paid your four-year tuiton fees and secured a job for you in your uncle's firm. All you need to do is face your studies and graduate with good grades". Now, he can choose to truly face his studies and graduate with good grades or he can play away his time, drop out of school and go his own way. Now, I also know that he will choose the latter. To play away his time, drop out and go his way. Infact I know he will drop out of school in 200 level. Predestination is my will for him. The destiny I want him to fulfil. The thing I want him to be and do. Which is to study, graduate with good grades and get a nice job with a reputable firm. Which I've even gone ahead to secure for him. Freewill is his power of choice to decide to be and to do what I want him to be and do; or for him to do his own thing and go his own way. Foreknowledge is my ability to know what choice he will make with his freewill. Whether he will follow my plan and my will for him or not. Which in this case I know he will not follow my plans for him. Can you now see the different now. Predestination is God's predetermined will for a man. The destiny He created and called a man to carry out and fulfil. Freewill is the man's right of choice to submit to God's will for him or go his own way. Foreknowledge is God's ability to know what the man will choose to do with that freewill. Which actually infact God knows. If at this point, you still don't understand these three and their differences; then you need hands laid on you for your understanding to be opened in Jesus' name. |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by timmy2409(m): 8:36pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
ayoku777: Yet again, this is where your logic fails. You're not omniscient as God is, so you do not and cannot know for a fact that your son will fail. Sure, you can extrapolate based on his temperament, attitude and current outlook on life that he is likely to fail in school, but you cannot know for sure that he will. Whatever conclusions you draw are merely predictions and can only be measured as a diminutive percentage of absolute certainty. On the other hand, God is omniscient so he not only knows with absolute certainty that your son will fail in school, he also knows the exact sequence of actions that will lead to this failure, what his exact final GPA will be and how many times he will eat rice during the semester. Now frank asked you earlier, if God knows a future event, can it not come to pass? And you answered this: But the answer to your question is yes. God's foreknowledge of our choices is never wrong. So if God foreknows you will choose to go to hell, then it means you will. Not that He predestined you for hell, but you chose by your own freewill to go there. God only foreknew you will make that choice. I am willing to assume that you are simply getting bogged down in the various terminology (foreknow, predestine), so let's discard them momentarily. I'll ask a simple question and I want you to answer without using either of those terms. Here it is: I am driving down a road that splits into two paths at an intersection. God, knowing the future, possesses the knowledge that I would take the left path. On getting to the intersection, can I choose to take the right path? 2 Likes |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 9:02pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
timmy2409: You totally missed the whole point of my father-son parable. But that's ok. And again, you're wrong, I'm not bogged down by anything. My explanations of foreknowledge and predestination are so clear and lucid. I'm just shocked its sounding like rocket science to some. And you only want to discard them for your sake because you don't understand them and can't argue against them well. That's ok too. Now to answer your question. You can't take the right path. Why? Your choice determines God's foreknowledge. God can only foreknow what you will choose. God cannot foreknow you choosing left if you will eventually choose right. It is what you will choose that God can foreknow. So if God foreknows you choosing left, then its because left is what you will choose. If you would choose right then God would foreknow you choosing right. Your choice determines God's foreknowledge. What you will choose determines what God foreknows. |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by An2elect2(f): 10:27pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
ayoku777: I read through dear and what you are trying to say is that God looked down the corridors of time and saw how everyman will express his/her supposed "freewill" irrespective of His predetermined will. In other words, God's foreknowledge is dependent on what men would do and not on His determinate counsel. I love the fact that you insist on scriptural definition of terms but have you checked how "know, knew, foreknowledge" are used in the scripture. We cannot just assume that these words signify a simple cognition. Ex 33:17, Deut9:24, Jeremiah 1:5, Hosea 8:4, Amos 3:2, Matt 7:23, John10:14, 2 Tim 2:19,etc. Notice a similarity here, all the scriptures talk about not a knowing of things/events but of people! God knows/ foreknows people when we follow scriptural application to understand foreknowledge. Another thing to take note of is that foreknowledge is more than a mere knowing before, that's peripheral, the scriptural usage is that of intimacy and relationship. For e.g matt 7:23 Jesus said he never knew the false converts speaks more of a lack of love for, appointment of this people. ayoku777: Yes God's foreknowledge cannot be wrong. But do look out for the scriptural definition of that word and its application. I beg of you. There is a thin line between Predestination and foreknowledge. The object of God foreknowing is not on man's action but on God's predetermined will. "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world." Acts 15:18. Man has a will but that will is in bondage to corruption. Enslaved to sin! not free! he acts within this constitution! all his choices are evil before God! He has the responsibility to do good but is depraved of the power to do so in and of himself. ayoku777:Yes freewill is heresy. It dethrones God and enthrones man. Can't you see? if man can choose good, then there is room for boasting! but look at the basics of our faith says salvation is by grace Eph 2:8. ayoku777:All men as a result of their wicked nature choose death over life. Not only that we wont choose God, we cant choose Him! if God does not quicken us, we will all like wise perish. |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by An2elect2(f): 10:41pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
Free will is a lie from the pit of hell. Men always want to have a sense of control in everything and they bring this same attitude to Christianity. Little do they know that God is sovereign and in control of every thing in the universe including their closely guarded god they call free will. Did i contradict myself? well the message is not lost. 1 Like |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by An2elect2(f): 10:45pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
God's foreknowledge according to His eternal decree determines our "choices" not the other way around. 1 Like |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by An2elect2(f): 10:49pm On Feb 27, 2015 |
The reason men ascribe freewill to themselves is because they do not know how depraved they are of good. We are sin ourselves. Spiritually dead. Can't hear or see the things of God. A dead man can do nothing. He has to be quickened. Eph 2. 1 Like |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by timmy2409(m): 2:24am On Feb 28, 2015 |
ayoku777: Man.... I just can't I'm looking for an even simpler way to explain the gross logical blunder in the bolded argument above, but my hands dey fall me big time. "Your choice determines God's foreknowledge" = God does not know until you make the choice, ergo he is not omniscient. "So if God foreknows you choosing left, then it is left you will choose" = Your choice is dependent on the pre-mapped sequence of events in God's head, ergo man has no freewill. You're literally trying to have your cake and eat it. Do you know what mutual exclusivity means? It's either one or the other man. If you can make choices freely that affect your eventual end, then God cannot know your end from your beginning then, can he? It's simple really. Picture it this way. If every single person's actions unfolds in exactly the manner that God had foreseen it before he created the universe, then we are simply actors in his vision, no? That's not really freewill, is it? If, at the point of creation, God foretold to himself that at this exact time I would arrive at a crossroad and would chose the left road, then I CANNOT chose the right road then, can I? 2 Likes |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by frank317: 8:07am On Feb 28, 2015 |
ayoku777: I can see you are just trying to be smart. So from my question did you see where I said it is God that will take me to hell? What are you answering questions you are not asked? Now can you see that you have made predestination useless with the admission of God having foreknowledge? What is the use of predestining when he already knows future outcome? Let me use the example of father and son u uses above to proof this point. If a father predestines that his son should graduate and get a job after graduation... He goes and pays the sons school fees and even secures the job for him.... But he knows his son will not graduate and will drop out in 200 level.... My take... He must be a foolish father. He knows his predestination is a waste of time yet he chooses to waste his money on a child he knows will not graduate. He even is more foolish for knowing his son's choice and not putting things in place to redirect the choice for better result. Listen to yourself and tell yourself the truth...if God knows the future, his predestination for us is senseless. God cannot foreknow our future and yet we still have free will since what he already knows must come to pass. This means we are living our 'free willed' life according to his knowledge. |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 2:15pm On Feb 28, 2015 |
ayoku777:It is impossible to walk through the maze you created up there. 1 Like |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by johnydon22(m): 3:28pm On Feb 28, 2015 |
2 Likes
|
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by sonmvayina(m): 3:43pm On Feb 28, 2015 |
God has not said he is any of those things we are fighting over, it is man that is making those claims about God...and why is it just so hard that the writers of those things made mistakes or just got it wrong rather than for us to start making sense of nonsense..that is why at the end of the day, we still resort to what the church teaches. chikena, Christians and Christianity those not make any sense at all..they don't want to believe that they have lived their whole life believing a lie....it is not too late to start afresh... |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 3:54pm On Feb 28, 2015 |
5solas: How so? Don't just disagree, make your opinion known. Is God's will always done? Or people have a freewill. You're a christian so I expect scriptural proof, not just opinion. I've been using scriptures since, but the bible is not good enough for unbelievers. So I've decided to debate it only with believers. Is God's will always done whether we want it or not? Or we have a freewill? |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 4:11pm On Feb 28, 2015 |
An2elect2: You said free will is a lie from hell. Meaning even our "choices" are God's counsel, much like a "dummy freewill". Do you believe this scriptures? 2Peter 3v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE. Do you agree according to this scripture that God is not willing that any should perish? Another scripture; 1Timothy 2v3-4 -For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; who will have ALL MEN SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Do you agree with this scripture also that its God good and acceptable will to have ALL MEN SAVED? Do you agree or you disagree? Now if God wants all men saved and none to perish, why then are many not saved and many have perished? If according to you man has no freewill and only God's counsel is done. |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 4:19pm On Feb 28, 2015 |
ayoku777:All men, by reason of the fall were supposed to end up in hell. However God in His mercies decided to save some . These are they referred to as elects . The rest He left to go the natural way they were going-hell. 1 Thess. 5:9 1Pet. 2 Jude Rom.9 If you believe these men can ''change'' their destinies, then you obviously miss the point . |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 4:40pm On Feb 28, 2015 |
johnydon22:If you hold the doctrine aright you will not be a fatalist. |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 4:48pm On Feb 28, 2015 |
An2elect2:So true because, future events, cannot be the cause of former ones, but rather effects of former ones. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 5:14pm On Feb 28, 2015 |
5solas: Fine, at least now you've made your position clear. That God is the one that chooses to save some and He chooses not to save some. I disagree with you though and there are scriptures that also disagree with you. Scriptures that say clearly, that God wants ALL MEN SAVED and is unwilling that ANY SHOULD PERISH: 2Peter 3v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE. 1Timothy 2v3-4 -For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; who will have ALL MEN SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. But at least you've made your opinion clear. Good enough. |
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 5:15pm On Feb 28, 2015 |
ayoku777: Good questions. Please endeavour to read the opening post of this thread and tell me where you agree or disagree-https://www.nairaland.com/855262/there-two-wills-god |
Atheist Dies And Goes To Hell, Then Heaven, Meets God And Shares Testimony. / When I See The Blood, I Will Pass Over You - Olamide Obire / Jesus Real Name And Language Leads Straight To Islam
(Go Up)
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 127 |