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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Dialectics Of Violence And Morality (33158 Views)
Atheists And Morality. A Question! / Atheism And Morality; Do Atheists Have A Foundation For Morality / Dialectics Or How To Debate (very Important For Both Theists And Non-theist) (2) (3) (4)
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Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by KingEbukasBlog(m): 11:30pm On Apr 05, 2016 |
thehomer: Wait ... you didn't notice I requited your own style of responding to my questions |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by plaetton: 11:31pm On Apr 05, 2016 |
Logicbwoy: Thank you brother, and salutations. You just made me feel a lot Better. I wish this was a paid job. 1 Like |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by DeepSight(m): 11:32pm On Apr 05, 2016 |
thehomer: Oh no complaint, good Dr; save that it stands in contradiction to your previous arguments on moral subjectivity. And no, I do not have the energy to go seeking out the links and quotes. Do that yourself. You surely recall the thread of Mr. Troll on moral subjectivity and the ensuing thread where all of these issues were thrashed out. |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by DeepSight(m): 11:46pm On Apr 05, 2016 |
plaetton: Please remove me from this list as I have NEVER held that morailty proceeds from Yahweh. If anything I have opened threads and made posts condemning the barbarous nature of Yahweh. Examples - https://www.nairaland.com/438941/yahweh-again-deut-7 https://www.nairaland.com/330967/yahweh-pagan-name https://www.nairaland.com/434436/yahweh-lying-angels So, should we not hold Yahweh accountable to his own moral standards ? I am not interested in Yahweh. It is a waste of time to limit the discussion to Yahweh. If I told you that I was say, a Yoruba traditionalist, would you limit the discussion to myths on Olodumare? If I was an Igbo traditionalist, would you limit the discussion to myths on Amadioha? Please expand your view and stop picking low hanging fruits such as Yahweh just to make an argument. The question of moral subjectivity or objectivity far transcends the barbarous Yahweh. The very fact that Josh and kingebukasblog feel compelled to defend, justify and exonerate Yahweh is evidence that they themselves find the allegations against Yahweh morally reprehensible and embarrassing. They will have to grow past that. We can talk about moral relativism in another thread. We already did, and I cannot bear to re hash it. There is moral relativism - it does not detract from objective morals. For example, circumstantial issues. It's good to kill in self defense. That's a relative circumstance. And it's still objective and will be measured by objective parametres. I can't go on and on. . . |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by KingEbukasBlog(m): 11:51pm On Apr 05, 2016 |
plaetton: I am not sure why God not being subject to his own moral laws is worth arguing against . Its a fact you have to deal with . |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by KingEbukasBlog(m): 11:56pm On Apr 05, 2016 |
DeepSight: I knew the answers to his questions . I just dont understand his penchant for throwing questions back at someone , so I did same to him - a taste of his own medicine . |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by Logicbwoy: 1:04am On Apr 06, 2016 |
KingEbukasBlog: Go and sleep. 1 Like |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by Nobody: 4:26am On Apr 06, 2016 |
KingEbukasBlog:You are getting mean |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by KingEbukasBlog(m): 7:05am On Apr 06, 2016 |
Muafrika2: His purpose is to ridicule Christian beliefs which he does not even understand - that's annoying . So it was easy to leave him in a very difficult situation with Mao's intentions and the effects . I think He understood that and claimed he didn't know , throwing the question back at me - now that's very annoying . . 1 Like |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by PastorAIO: 8:06am On Apr 06, 2016 |
KingEbukasBlog: And I ask you, Why have I been mentioned in this post? 1 Like |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by Joshthefirst(m): 8:19am On Apr 06, 2016 |
plaetton:If you think you can hold yhwh to moral standards or put him on trial then you certainly have to examine your way of thinking. |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by PastorAIO: 9:31am On Apr 06, 2016 |
DeepSight: I'm fine thank you. I return the salutations. (albeit with a slight bit of trepidation). I noticed that there is some distance between where I'm coming and where Plaetton and others are coming from with the relativity of morality thing, so I decided to chill from the thread a bit. Funny thing is… I believe I already understand you on this morality issue, but I just don't agree with you. Your tendency to throw petulant tantrums do not help if you want to convince me of anything. DeepSight: Perhaps I should take a risk and try to explain relativity to you (at least as I understand it). Relativity is the position that we will observe different values for an event depending on our perspective. There are various kinds of values for various kinds of attributes. There are physical values like 6 feet or 5 feet for the physical attribute of Height. There are physical values like 1 hour or 20 minutes for the physical attribute we call time. There are Moral values like Good, better, or evil for Ethical attributes. These are not measured into precise units like physical attributes. The fact that all over the world at various points in history moral values are variable demonstrates that Moral values are relative. Ie. An event is assigned a different moral value by different people observing it from different perspectives. From our perspective today, we consider rape to be a vile nasty evil thing. However it is evident that the writers of the Old testament did not think so. Now, this issue of relativity is different from the issue of Subjectivity or Objectivity. These often get mixed up and that could be where a lot of problems lie for people trying to understand my position. Let us look at a physical attribute such as Time. Now Einstein has proven to the world that Time is relative. Time is relative to the speed at which the observer is moving. Of course we do not see that because we all pretty much move at the same speed. Even the guy in a fast car and the guy walking on the street are not going to notice any significant difference in the measurement of time. However for an observer approaching the speed of light Time will slow down considerably. I can't go into details plus I believe you are already familiar with the work of Einstein. My point is that how you perceive Time depends on the locality (a speed range being a locality) you perceive it from. People who share a locality will measure these attributes to be the same. People in different localities will measure Time differently. These are OBJECTIVE facts. Relativity is an objective fact. Someone like you that argues for a fixed Sense of Morality for all peoples throughout all ages is like someone that argues that Time is always measured the same regardless of the speed of the observer even though observers moving at various speeds have recorded their observations and we can all see the difference. Let me return to the temperature example. (though I admit it is probably not a good example). You argue that someone touching a 100 degree celsius object will feel the same temperature. that is not true. A simple experiment. Make three buckets of water. One hot, one room temperature, and the third one cold. Put one hand in the hot bucket and the other in the cold bucket for 3 minutes. Then remove them and put them both in the room temperature bucket. Then tell me if the hand that was once in the hot bucket doesn't find the medium bucket colder than the hand that was in the cold bucket. They sense temperature differently depending on where they are coming from. Furthermore Temperature is relative to pressure. A volume of gas with a fixed amount of heat energy will have one temperature in a high pressure container and a different temperature in a lower pressure container. Of course the difference between physical attributes and moral attributes is that you can measure physical attributes objectively and find them to be relative. However moral attributes cannot be measured by any objective barometer. We depend on our subjective sense of morality. So the only way one can argue these issues is to demand your interlocutor to give a moral appraisal of a situation (such as rape). However, as with the case with Time where everyone on this planet is pretty much moving within a common range of speed, we are discussing with ourselves and we all belong more or less to a common cultural milieu. We have all been brought up to believe that Rape is evil (I hope). To truly test this though we have to go to a different set of people from a different cultural context at a different time in history. And what do we find. We find that not only do they rape wantonly, but there is no hint of shame in the actions. There is even no sense that the feelings of the woman matter when justice is brought to bear on the matter of rape. 4 Likes |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by Kay17: 9:46am On Apr 06, 2016 |
Kay17: DeepSight: |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by Kay17: 9:46am On Apr 06, 2016 |
Dug up from some old thread |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by Kay17: 10:05am On Apr 06, 2016 |
Morality can also be explained as normative rules decided by a table of values with the most valuable value on top. The table of values vary amongst peoples. Morality becomes a reflection of the table of values and can be deduced therefrom. How this table is decided is more of a question of taste. For Abraham and Samuel, obedience is more valuable than discretion or freethinking. Murder of an innocent might appear objective because of an intersection between two separate tables of values. Which leads to Nietzsche's slave and master moralities, what the slaves value differ from the masters. Thus explaining the subjectivity of morals. It might appear that no one is immoral because everyone values at least something. Being human seems to being moral. 1 Like |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by Nobody: 10:51am On Apr 06, 2016 |
sonOfLucifer: Only without time, truth is constant. |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by PastorAIO: 11:24am On Apr 06, 2016 |
This Guy!! You want to force me to go back and start reading Nietzsche again. Kay17: |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by UyiIredia(m): 12:35pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
PastorAIO: God exists as a real being but we have various concepts of this being. How you can believe in the real being without believing in any concept of it is the mystery here. 1 Like |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by PastorAIO: 1:30pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
UyiIredia: It's very easy. No mystery at all. I believe all concepts are necessarily flawed. Not just concepts of God but any concept of reality. That doesn't mean that they cannot have pragmatic value. i.e. they can be handled as workable hypotheses. However to carry concepts on your head like a life or death matter, even to the point of denying reality just to maintain the concept, even to the point of fighting your fellow humans or even going to war and risking life and limb…. I nor dey for that one. Life is a mystery. It is a wonder. Accept it like that. 1 Like |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by KingEbukasBlog(m): 5:03pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
PastorAIO: Coming from the pit of Hell . You and your devilish doctrine |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by PastorAIO: 5:28pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
KingEbukasBlog: Thank you. |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by PastorAIO: 5:33pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
KingEbukasBlog: I have no idea whether it's worth arguing against or no, but I do know that it is a load of rubbish. Perhaps if someone found the rubbish vexing then it would be worth his while to argue against it in the hope that you'd stop making the inane shallow argument. Or then again perhaps one may just be arguing against it to while away the time and so it's value is recreational. |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by KingEbukasBlog(m): 5:34pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
PastorAIO: U welcome . But wait ... Did you come along with sonOfLucifer |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by PastorAIO: 5:45pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
KingEbukasBlog: Na only me waka come. |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by KingEbukasBlog(m): 5:46pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
PastorAIO: You are against God |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by PastorAIO: 6:18pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
KingEbukasBlog: Can you make another daft statement that is even stupider than this one? If you can I'll give you a prize. 5 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by Logicbwoy: 6:26pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
PastorAIO: 1 Like |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by neocortex: 6:30pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
KingEbukasBlog: So much for an unchanging god. BTW are you ashamed or proud of what god did to the amalekites ? 1 Like |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by neocortex: 6:32pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
KingEbukasBlog: How about criminal christian and pastors in jail, do they lack religious foundation ? |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by neocortex: 6:34pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
Joshthefirst: Is walking unclad in the street good or evil ? please help me ask the lawgiver |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by KingEbukasBlog(m): 6:46pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
PastorAIO: You are against God |
Re: Dialectics Of Violence And Morality by PastorAIO: 6:54pm On Apr 06, 2016 |
KingEbukasBlog: Are you suggesting that it gets stupider every time you mention it? Yeah, i agree, but I really want to hear another one, a fresh one. 2 Likes 1 Share |
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