finofaya:


Maybe your creator has the authority to do so. That has no bearing on the objectiveness of whatever rules he sets. Tell me what it is that makes the moral standard objective.

How do you know that your conscience tells you the same things that mine tells me? Or that anyone else's tells them?

What is wrong is wrong. Would you for any reason permit a thief to get away with your wallet if you can? I believe all cultures and societies consider stealing to be an objective immoral conduct, no?

OLAADEGBU:

KAG post=45189440:


I guess we have different ideas of morality, then. I consider the execution of children to be immoral, and can never find any reason to justify their wholesale execution. But that's just me. Perhaps it's why I don't appeal to your god for "moral objectivity".

The old KAG is sitting pretty on her high moral throne. Do you consider the killing of unborn babies (abortion) moral?

Interesting that you consider the disavowing of wholesale execution of children to be "sitting on a high moral throne". Not sure what it says of your supposed "moral objectivity". You should also be worried about your equivocation of your god delighting in the execution of children, with the killing of unborn babies. Yet you tried to justify it? Strange, no? In any case, no I don't agree with the killing of unborn babies. If a baby is to be aborted, I support it if it's on medical grounds - where the mother and the baby's life will both be lost. Over to you.

OLAADEGBU:


What is wrong is wrong. Would you for any reason permit a thief to get away with your wallet if you can? I believe all cultures and societies consider stealing to be an objective immoral conduct, no?

"Great, good God! It is stolen! That man who was here last night has stolen it."
...
In the meantime, Monseigneur Bienvenu had advanced as quickly as his great age permitted.

"Ah! here you are!" he exclaimed, looking at Jean Valjean. "I am glad to see you. Well, but how is this? I gave you the candlesticks too, which are of silver like the rest, and for which you can certainly get two hundred francs. Why did you not carry them away with your forks and spoons?"

Jean Valjean opened his eyes wide, and stared at the venerable Bishop with an expression which no human tongue can render any account of.
...
"Now," said the Bishop, "go in peace. By the way, when you return, my friend, it is not necessary to pass through the garden. You can always enter and depart through the street door. It is never fastened with anything but a latch, either by day or by night."

The Bishop drew near to him, and said in a low voice:--

"Do not forget, never forget, that you have promised to use this money in becoming an honest man."

Jean Valjean, who had no recollection of ever having promised anything, remained speechless. The Bishop had emphasized the words when he uttered them. He resumed with solemnity:--

"Jean Valjean, my brother, you no longer belong to evil, but to good. It is your soul that I buy from you; I withdraw it from black thoughts and the spirit of perdition, and I give it to God."

Les Miserables (http://www.online-literature.com/victor_hugo/les_miserables/26/)

OLAADEGBU:


What is wrong is wrong. Would you for any reason permit a thief to get away with your wallet if you can? I believe all cultures and societies consider stealing to be an objective immoral conduct, no?

Saying that a wrong thing is wrong is not a meaningful statement. That's like saying a bright thing is bright.

Listing one thing that many people consider wrong does not help your case. It doesn't establish that there are objective rights and wrongs. I can simply list other things that people don't agree on such as pre marital sex, eating shellfish or child marriages and say that they preclude the existence of objective morality.

OLAADEGBU:


He is the King of heaven. The Holy One, The Infinite God who is infinite in Knowledge and wisdom. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Why I always think I will hear trumpets and cymbals and thunder or whatever whenever this grand line is invoked, eh? (Scratches head).what of the God of Sarah, Rachel and Ruth and Beyonce

PastorAIO:


And now that you have objective morality, does yours wash with the moral code of others? Are others following your objective moral code?

Laws of morality only make sense in the Christian worldview where God created us in His own image and therefore has the right to set the rules for the behaviour of mankind. It is not my subjective morality against yours.

PastorAIO:


Which of my many questions are you failing to answer here?

You should be the one telling me the ones I failed to answer.

PastorAIO:


I know what objective morality is! That's not what I asked.

I asked: Why MUST morality be objective? In other words, why is subjective morality so unsatisfactory for you?

Any subjective morality we set for ourselves can only be arbitrary. Morality must be objective in the sense that the subjective morality of atheists who generally believe that it is okay to kill babies in their mothers womb or Muslims who believe that it is perfectly alright to murder non Muslims or some folks who believe it is their right to be racists. Who then is to say which moral code is to be followed. It is only God's absolute morality that is universal and is already written in our consciences. We don't hear them because of our sinful lifestyle.

KAG:


Interesting that you consider the disavowing of wholesale execution of children to be "sitting on a high moral throne". Not sure what it says of your supposed "moral objectivity". You should also be worried about your equivocation of your god delighting in the execution of children, with the killing of unborn babies. Yet you tried to justify it? Strange, no? In any case, no I don't agree with the killing of unborn babies. If a baby is to be aborted, I support it if it's on medical grounds - where the mother and the baby's life will both be lost. Over to you.

Execution is different from murder. Execution is done lawfully while murder is the unlawful killing of a human life that you did not create. You can only take a life that you created. God has the right to take what He has given. When the law of the land is execution you cannot say that it is an unlawful killing. If God executes a judgment He has set who are you to appeal against it?

You do not have the right to murder an unborn baby for whatever reason the best one can do medically is to try to save them both. Only God has the right to take life that He has given.

KAG:


"Great, good God! It is stolen! That man who was here last night has stolen it."
...
In the meantime, Monseigneur Bienvenu had advanced as quickly as his great age permitted.

"Ah! here you are!" he exclaimed, looking at Jean Valjean. "I am glad to see you. Well, but how is this? I gave you the candlesticks too, which are of silver like the rest, and for which you can certainly get two hundred francs. Why did you not carry them away with your forks and spoons?"

Jean Valjean opened his eyes wide, and stared at the venerable Bishop with an expression which no human tongue can render any account of.
...
"Now," said the Bishop, "go in peace. By the way, when you return, my friend, it is not necessary to pass through the garden. You can always enter and depart through the street door. It is never fastened with anything but a latch, either by day or by night."

The Bishop drew near to him, and said in a low voice:--

"Do not forget, never forget, that you have promised to use this money in becoming an honest man."

Jean Valjean, who had no recollection of ever having promised anything, remained speechless. The Bishop had emphasized the words when he uttered them. He resumed with solemnity:--

"Jean Valjean, my brother, you no longer belong to evil, but to good. It is your soul that I buy from you; I withdraw it from black thoughts and the spirit of perdition, and I give it to God."

Les Miserables (http://www.online-literature.com/victor_hugo/les_miserables/26/)

The depiction below shows why it is necessary to appeal to God for objective morals.

OLAADEGBU:


Execution is different from murder. Execution is done lawfully while murder is the unlawful killing of a human life that you did not create. You can only take a life that you created. God has the right to take what He has given. When the law of the land is execution you cannot say that it is an unlawful killing. If God executes a judgment He has set who are you to appeal against it?

Justification of the wholesale killing of children is only okay when you truly believe your god has mandated it. Got it. Again, it's little surprise I don't subscribe to your "objective morality". I don't forsee supporting the murder...I mean "execution" (like that makes it any better, really) of loads of children. By the way, when the law of the land is the execution of children during a battle for land, I can most certainly say it's unlawful killing. That's the point.

You do not have the right to murder an unborn baby for whatever reason the best one can do medically is to try to save them both. Only God has the right to take life that He has given.

Apparently you do if you believe your god has asked you to do the killing, though, right? Or is it that aborting babies is wrong, but killing children after they're born, well that's okay, because Hebrew god? What an interesting premise.

It's a nonsensical red herring to believe it's better for a mother and unborn baby to die, rather than induce a pregnancy that will assuredly kill both. It's painful for the mother to have it happen to her, but sometimes it's all that can be done. However, it doesn't change the fact you're trying to justify the wholesale murder of children on the one hand, while trying to argue poorly for "ojective morality". We clearly follow different moral guides. I'll get back on my "high moral throne".

OLAADEGBU:


The depiction below shows why it is necessary to appeal to God for objective morals.

"Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." I'll pass on appealing to your god for "objective morals"

finofaya:


Saying that a wrong thing is wrong is not a meaningful statement. That's like saying a bright thing is bright.

Listing one thing that many people consider wrong does not help your case. It doesn't establish that there are objective rights and wrongs. I can simply list other things that people don't agree on such as pre marital sex, eating shellfish or child marriages and say that they preclude the existence of objective morality.

Answer these objective moral questions and see which ones doesn't resonate with your conscience.

Have I always loved God my Creator with all my heart, mind, soul and strength? ____YES ___NO
Have I made a god in my own image? a god to suit myself? ____YES ___NO
Have I ever used God's name in vain? ____YES ___NO
Have I kept the Sabbath holy? ____YES ___NO
Have I always honoured my parents implicitly? ____YES ___NO
Have I murdered (God also considers hatred as murder)? ____YES ___NO
Have I committed adultery (including premarital sex and lust)? ____YES ___NO
Have I stolen (the value is irrelevant)? ____YES ___NO
Have I lied (including fibs and these questions)? ____YES ___NO
Have I coveted (been greedy or materialistic)? ____YES ___NO

JustStardust:


Why I always think I will hear trumpets and cymbals and thunder or whatever whenever this grand line is invoked, eh? (Scratches head).what of the God of Sarah, Rachel and Ruth and Beyonce

If he is different from the uncreated Creator I mentioned earlier then it will be subjective.

OLAADEGBU:


If he is different from the uncreated Creator I mentioned earlier then it will be subjective.

See, I was just amused by d whole abraham,isaac,jacob thing. My real ish is with the way theists leap to an uncreated creator or creators. Whether Jewish, Xtian, Islamic, Hindu or African traditional...

The thing is invoking an uncreated Creator creates more problem than it solves. If u say 1 is caused by 2 is caused by 3, u can keep going till infinity and beyond. But saying Diaris a creator is like getting to 4 and saying "ok, everything is caused by 4" .

What stops 4 from being caused by 5 and so on and in the same vein why can't any god be created in the first place by a super god and a super god by a superduper god?

OLAADEGBU:


Answer these objective moral questions and see which ones doesn't resonate with your conscience.

Have I always loved God my Creator with all my heart, mind, soul and strength? ____YES ___NO
Have I made a god in my own image? a god to suit myself? ____YES ___NO
Have I ever used God's name in vain? ____YES ___NO
Have I kept the Sabbath holy? ____YES ___NO
Have I always honoured my parents implicitly? ____YES ___NO
Have I murdered (God also considers hatred as murder)? ____YES ___NO
Have I committed adultery (including premarital sex and lust)? ____YES ___NO
Have I stolen (the value is irrelevant)? ____YES ___NO
Have I lied (including fibs and these questions)? ____YES ___NO
Have I coveted (been greedy or materialistic)? ____YES ___NO

The ten commandments? That's the entire objective moral code you have? Kai

KAG:


Justification of the wholesale killing of children is only okay when you truly believe your god has mandated it. Got it. Again, it's little surprise I don't subscribe to your "objective morality". I don't forsee supporting the murder...I mean "execution" (like that makes it any better, really) of loads of children. By the way, when the law of the land is the execution of children during a battle for land, I can most certainly say it's unlawful killing. That's the point.

Apparently you do if you believe your god has asked you to do the killing, though, right? Or is it that aborting babies is wrong, but killing children after they're born, well that's okay, because Hebrew god? What an interesting premise.

The Scriptures reveal that God does not only have absolute morality but is also the ultimate Judge. Every human being will die because He proclaimed the death sentence on the entire human race. It is His Word that says "the soul that sins shall die." Statistics say 10 out of 10 die, and our death is proof that in His eyes the best of us are wicked criminals, justly deserving capital punishment so what's the difference in those dying young or old? All have sinned and have come short of God's Law.

But God is rich in mercy, willing to forgive, and He proved His great love for us by suffering on the cross and defeating death. If you want to live see www.needGod.com

KAG:


It's a nonsensical red herring to believe it's better for a mother and unborn baby to die, rather than induce a pregnancy that will assuredly kill both. It's painful for the mother to have it happen to her, but sometimes it's all that can be done. However, it doesn't change the fact you're trying to justify the wholesale murder of children on the one hand, while trying to argue poorly for "ojective morality". We clearly follow different moral guides. I'll get back on my "high moral throne".

Planned Parenthood in America committed over 63 million abortions in 40 years, where all these due to rare medical condition you gave as an excuse? All human life is valuable and that is if you even consider the unborn babies to be human. In cases of crisis pregnancy, the approach should be to try to save a life or two, as opposed to forcing death on one or both of them. Your subjective moral guide has led to the death of millions of unborn and in some cases born children (partial birth abortion). You will all have to face the ultimate Judge on Judgment Day.

KAG:


"Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." I'll pass on appealing to your god for "objective morals"

You better repent accordingly as the picture above depicts.

JustStardust:


See, I was just amused by d whole abraham,isaac,jacob thing. My real ish is with the way theists leap to an uncreated creator or creators. Whether Jewish, Xtian, Islamic, Hindu or African traditional...

The thing is invoking an uncreated Creator creates more problem than it solves. If u say 1 is caused by 2 is caused by 3, u can keep going till infinity and beyond. But saying Diaris a creator is like getting to 4 and saying "ok, everything is caused by 4" .

What stops 4 from being caused by 5 and so on and in the same vein why can't any god be created in the first place by a super god and a super god by a superduper god?

When you come to the end of your superduper gods then you will get to the overall, infinite uncreated Creator. He is the creator of all things.

finofaya:


The ten commandments? That's the entire objective moral code you have? Kai

Yes, that is the absolute Moral Law. Have you answered it? How well did you fair?

OLAADEGBU:


The Scriptures reveal that God does not only have absolute morality but is also the ultimate Judge. Every human being will die because He proclaimed the death sentence on the entire human race. It is His Word that says "the soul that sins shall die." Statistics say 10 out of 10 die, and our death is proof that in His eyes the best of us are wicked criminals, justly deserving capital punishment so what's the difference in those dying young or old? All have sinned and have come short of God's Law.

But God is rich in mercy, willing to forgive, and He proved His great love for us by suffering on the cross and defeating death. If you want to live see www.needGod.com



Planned Parenthood in America committed over 63 million abortions in 40 years, where all these due to rare medical condition you gave as an excuse? All human life is valuable and that is if you even consider the unborn babies to be human. In cases of crisis pregnancy, the approach should be to try to save a life or two, as opposed to forcing death on one or both of them. Your subjective moral guide has led to the death of millions of unborn and in some cases born children (partial birth abortion). You will all have to face the ultimate Judge on Judgment Day.

The US abortion thing is even stranger. The aborted babies are use for experiments/ research and even burnt for heating hospitals during cold days.

Muafrika2:


The US abortion thing is even stranger. The aborted babies are use for experiments/ research and even burnt for heating hospitals during cold days.

And yet KAG and the likes would not protest against the unethical and immoral acts of this kind of abortion. The U.S. Govt. especially under the Democrat Party are responsible of funding this kind of genocide worldwide. You can see how the intellectual genocide has caused the untimely deaths of millions when they can not give life in the first place.

OLAADEGBU:


Yes, that is the absolute Moral Law. Have you answered it? How well did you fair?

What does that have to do with anything?

OLAADEGBU:


And yet KAG and the likes would not protest against the unethical and immoral acts of this kind of abortion. The U.S. Govt. especially under the Democrat Party are responsible of funding this kind of genocide worldwide. You can see how the intellectual genocide has caused the untimely deaths of millions when they can not give life in the first place.

Those Democrats can be abit lawless at times.

finofaya:


What does that have to do with anything?

You may as well answer it in this link to see what absolute (objective) morality is all about. ==> www.needGod.com

OLAADEGBU:


When you come to the end of your superduper gods then you will get to the overall, infinite uncreated Creator. He is the creator of all things.

Lol. And how did this entity come into being? If you say he has always been. Then i ask, why can't you just as well say the Universe has always been ,i.e infinite; Or say "all things" have always been i.e infinite and uncreated? Its cunning and deceptive to just pick an arbitrary point to stop in this game of "cause and effect". Lets be honest.

Muafrika2:


Those Democrats can be abit lawless at times.

Most of their policies are based on lawlessness and that's where you will see lawless folks gravitating to.

OLAADEGBU:


Most of their policies are based on lawlessness and that's where you will see lawless folks gravitating to.

True. Very deliberate lawlessness.

OLAADEGBU:


Most of their policies are based on lawlessness and that's where you will see lawless folks gravitating to.

Once people dont subscribe to a brand of patriarchial, overly moralistic religion, they are branded "lawless". Why cant people just allow others to be free when they hurt no one?

Isnt it strange that the "moral" people despise abortions but the lawless are ok with it
isnt it strange that this same moral people believe in letting the terminally ill suffer through pain instead of assisted suicide while those who support euthanasia are branded as lawless. Lets not forget that foetuses are mostly a collection of cells with no consciousness whereas a full grown man is in a sorry state indeed when suffering pain
Isnt it strange that the so called bible thumpers love guns and dont want to see it controlled whereas the somehow lawless care more about the fellow man and want stricter gun control measures.

The list gets more interesting when u get to sex, sexual orientation and the use of some substances like marijuana. Its almost as if you must control other people's lives to be seen as lawful, but anything that waves freedom to people is branded "lawless". Am a Liberal,blood and bone, O yes. Leave me lawless and free

OLAADEGBU:


You may as well answer it in this link to see what absolute (objective) morality is all about. ==> www.needGod.com

Lol. I like how you execute your cop outs.

JustStardust:


Once people dont subscribe to a brand of patriarchial, overly moralistic religion, they are branded "lawless". Why cant people just allow others to be free when they hurt no one?

Isnt it strange that the "moral" people despise abortions but the lawless are ok with it
isnt it strange that this same moral people believe in letting the terminally ill suffer through pain instead of assisted suicide while those who support euthanasia are branded as lawless. Lets not forget that foetuses are mostly a collection of cells with no consciousness whereas a full grown man is in a sorry state indeed when suffering pain
Isnt it strange that the so called bible thumpers love guns and dont want to see it controlled whereas the somehow lawless care more about the fellow man and want stricter gun control measures.

The list gets more interesting when u get to sex, sexual orientation and the use of some substances like marijuana. Its almost as if you must control other people's lives to be seen as lawful, but anything that waves freedom to people is branded "lawless". Am a Liberal,blood and bone, O yes. Leave me lawless and free

These are the simple reasons why absolute morality cannot comport with atheism. Why should there be objective standard of behaviour universally upheld if the universe and the people therein are simply accidents of nature? The atheistic, evolutionary universe is a place where people are just animals and murder is no different than a lion killing an antelope. And that is why you wouldn't get angry and punish the lion that killed an antelope. If people are just chemical accidents as you want us to believe why would you punish a person who murders another person?

The fact is that human beings are not animals but are valuable and have genuine freedom to make choices, they are also responsible for the choices they make and are bound by a universal objective moral code that come from the Creator God who set up the rules for our behaviours in the first place.

finofaya:


Lol. I like how you execute your cop outs.

Does that mean you refused to view the objective morality of God in that link?