truthislight:

Lol. See you trying to lie on my head. Was it me that said you won or i was just quoting you?

How can one trust you self again?

If allegations of child abuse satisfy the organization's religious tenets, an internal judicial committee is formed, and the accused individual may potentially be relieved of positions of responsibility in the congregation. Anyone found to have sexually molested a child, based upon the criteria established by the organization, and deemed by the elders to not demonstrate sufficient repentance is disfellowshipped from the congregation and shunned.

The elders are instructed to gauge the abuser's repentance based upon their subsequent visible support of congregation activities, such as attending congregation meetings, and actively supporting the denomination's door-to-door work. The sustained participation in the group's activities has resulted in sexual predators remaining in good standing in the congregation

An abuser who is judged repentant by a committee of elders is given a 'public reproof', wherein it is announced to the congregation that the named individual "has been reproved", though the nature of their crime is not stated.[26] Such a person is automatically debarred from serving in any appointed position in the congregation, however privileges can be restored in the future depending on whether he or she is deemed by the branch office to be a "known molester".[29] A few weeks later, a talk may be given to the congregation, discussing the type of sin and the need to be on guard against it, but the reproved individual is not named in connection with this talk.[30] It is the intention that the talk about the type of sin, and the previously made announcement of reproof, should allow other congregation members to interpret what type of sin had been committed.[31] When reprimanded, sex offenders may not offer public prayers, read paragraphs during congregation studies, or be given even minor responsibilities in the congregation, such as handling microphones or distributing literature in the Kingdom Hall.

Sex offenders are still permitted to participate in the congregation's house-to-house preaching. According to the Watch Tower Society's spokesperson, J. R. Brown, such ones are only allowed to preach when accompanied by a responsible adult.In 2016, a convicted pedophile was filmed going door-to-door for the denomination.

4kings:
@PastorAIO
Actually JW is kinda sick for upholding the biblical 2 witness rule in such cases and that's fu(ked up.

There are just too much of an extremist.
But on Morality or Cult, i'm still skeptical of how you *portray them as an organisation*.

Here are some excerpt from [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses%27_handling_of_child_sex_abuse#Repentance_and_Discipline]Wikipedia[/url].


Atleast there are punishment for offenders found guilty.

However:

This might explain the return of offenders to the church in the first video you posted.

And this:


I think the main problem is their [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses%27_handling_of_child_sex_abuse#.27Two_witness_rule.27]two witness rule.[/url]
That's messed up.
And i think they should revisit that, but calling them a cult is going to far considering what they've contributed to humanity and their zeal to lead people to "heavenly paradise" despite resistance in most part of the world.

This is indeed a complicated situation, but concluding that the JW as an organisation is a cult is just going to far. - My naive opinion.

PastorAIO:


Just to get it clear who brought up the issue of winning.

truthislight:


Be sure of what? that you never said you have won and later denied of ever saying such? did i tell you "You have won the argument"? No.

I ask you a question with regard to your intent for posting the initial video and you came out to say you had won the argument when Jman05 did not answer your questions.

That is not even the point, the point here is that you denied ever saying you have won the argument. Simple.

Do you want to turn this one upside down on its head again?

Abeg, stop lying and twisting facts.

Enjoy.

PastorAIO:


Good gosh, I have been on Nairaland for quite a long time you are right there. But where you are lying is where you say that I've been attacking Jehovah's Witnesses since I came to Nairaland. I haven't even addressed the JW matter in any thread. If you say I have then you have to show me the thread where I did. Otherwise, hold your peace

I started investigating JW when I got shocked by the manner that you and JMAN are conducting the discussion. It is pitiful. And now you want to scatter the issue by spewing random nonsense at length and tossing ad hominems back and forth in the hope that it will obfuscate the issue. O ma se o!

Like I said, I'm investigating JW and as I dig up more info I'll be posting it. Why? to better understand your methods of argument so that if I or anyone else engages you in discussion again we'll know what to expect.

PastorAIO:
You miss the fact that sex offenses against children are not reported to the police for fear of brings Jehovah's name into reproach. Who told them that Jehovah needs their lies and cover up to save his name from reproach.

I call them a cult because their thoughts are policed and they are not free to think what they want.

One techniques that Cults employ is that they cut new members off from any emotional support that they may have outside of the cult, and even sometimes from finding emotional support from one another in couple relationships. (e.g. check out 40:00 minutes in the 2nd video where a married couple got disfellowshipped for getting married after they'd been told to stay away from each other).

JWs are not allowed to have deep relationships with people outside the cult. Mother's cut off their children and vice verse. It's a common story.

You cannot just decide the leave the cult. You're not free to do so. All your loved ones in the cult will cut off contact with you if you do. considering that they've systematically destroyed all your relationships outside the cult those that want to leave are even afraid to because it means being lonely in the world. Many cults employ these techniques.

4kings:

Fine, you win. They're a cult.
A cult that give help to humanity at-times.

I actually had not seen this other side of the Jehovah's witness, so apologies for my naivety.
But i'm still a little bit fidgety about making any "general" assertion.

PastorAIO:


I'm curious about this help to humanity part that you're talking about.

4kings:

Their charitable works and martyrdom for what they believe in(conversion of people to Christ.)

Jehovah’s Witnesses practice no official charitable works for the general public; they have no soup kitchens, no homeless shelters, no shelters for battered women, no educational programs that help people get back into the job market, and don’t even have clothing bins where the homeless can find discarded clothes and blankets.

PastorAIO:


If you are not expert in Hebrew Latin and Greek then how can you be sure to trust the translation of the bible that you carry about. That bible was translated by your JW ogas from Greek and Hebrew. They changed many things that are integral to general christian doctrine on the basis that they are not the correct translation of the greek/hebrew. Yet you trust them.

How and Why do you trust that bible that is so different from other bibles when you don't know any greek and hebrew yourself?

PastorAIO:


Martyrdom does not equate to helping humanity. The dead at Waco, Texas can be called martyrs too.

I am not aware of any instances of Jehovah Witnesses doing charity works for humanity, if anything it is their doctrine to NOT do so. If I'm wrong, perhaps you can furnish us with some examples of their charity works.

Watchtower 2017 May p.7
"Like the neighborly Samaritan in Jesus’ illustration, we want to help suffering people, including those who are not Witnesses. (Luke 10:33-37) The best way to do so is by sharing the good news with them. “It is important to make clear right away that we are Jehovah’s Witnesses and that our primary mission is to help them spiritually, not materially,” notes an elder who has helped many refugees. “Otherwise, some may associate with us only for personal advantage.”"


“There is a kind of giving that is even more important than charity… While he took the lead in helping the poor, healing the sick, and feeding the hungry, Jesus primarily trained his disciples to preach… Why not listen to what Jehovah’s Witnesses have to say the next time they call? They come with a spiritual gift. And they know that this is the best way that they can give to you.“
June 1, 2003, Watchtower

https://jwvictims.org/2015/02/28/jehovahs-witnesses-endorse-charitable-works-as-long-as-theyre-performed-by-someone-else/


JW have never given one penny to anybody that is not a JW themselves. and even then the giving is minimal.

truthislight:


Take it up with JW Ogas according to you and leave Nairalanders alone on speaking Hebrews, I did not need to know Hebrew Language before using King James Bible

Is that a new condition before i read any translation i like?

You will come here dey blow Hebrew for us instead of going to the Bible translators to quarry them you come dey disturb us for Nairaland with Hebrew Language.

If you have not been faithful on what is least like accepting what you have posted before on a language i can even read, why should i trust you sef on your Hebrew Language in a language i don't even understand?

btw. Why are you carrying on about speaking Hebrew? What has understanding Hebrew got to do with anything that is being discussed now?

What we need is to discuss Christian doctrine not to show up that we can speak Hebrew and Greek Language with a wicked heart.

Omo mehnn , Pastor get my time today sha, see me see wahala sha. hehehe

I was coming from the viewpoint of intention; they believe in "love of God" and seek to spread it.
Not circumstantial martyrdom.

I know they were killed during Hitler's time and currently have issues in South Korea, Russia ,Egypt ...

Do you have more awkward facts about JW?

4kings:
Omo mehnn , Pastor get my time today sha, see me see wahala sha. hehehe

I was coming from the viewpoint of intention; they believe in "love of God" and seek to spread it.
Not circumstantial martyrdom.

I know they were killed during Hitler's time and currently have issues in South Korea, Russia ,Egypt ...


This is new.
Hmm, what i've learnt today sha.

Did some quick search and was shocked. WTF

But i know a JW na.

Anyways, i had a wrong impression about them.
I really admired their composure and biblical enlightenment, I know someone and a distant relative that are JWs. They always get free places to stay in other countries by their members and the most evangelical ministry(i guess) in the globe and are good guys.
My mum use to have their Awake magazine and it was cool.

I'm still in shock.
Damn.

I need to make a good research on JW.

I made a fundamental attribution error.

Next time, i encounter them i would have a long chat.

---

Do you have more awkward facts about JW?

PastorAIO:

Me sef, I just dey learn. But it explains a lot.

There is something in Cult activity called Love-bombing. That is what they do when they want to seduce you into their cult, or when you are new. They 'bomb' you with love and you feel that finally you've found your home, a place with lovely people, god fearing, good people. It takes a few weeks or months before they start to bare their fangs and growl.

I'm sure that your JW friends seem very nice to you. Try an experiment. Instead of just listening to everything they say willingly, try asking them some awkward questions and read their facial expression whether they are struggling to maintain the niceness. Ask a really difficult question and see whether or not they turn nasty. Almost as if the niceness is just a reward for your acquiescent attitude, which will be withdrawn if you cease to acquiesce.

PastorAIO:
Yes, I said I'd won the argument already when you asked if I brought the video to win.
I'd won, done and dusted.
Now I'm moving on to why your lot are so obtuse and deceit in argument. And I'm slowly finding out why.

PastorAIO:


You're the one that I am facing here. I don't need to go to any JW ogas. All I know is that they created a bible translation called NWT (new world translation) that is at odds with most other bibles on key points. It is also the official bible of the JW.

You don't have to know Hebrew too deep yourself in this day and age of Internet. There are many ancient Hebrew dictionaries and concordances so if you really are serious about learning the bible you have easy access to the original manuscripts in the original languages.

Where have I not been faithful? Are you going to resort to lies now?

Is it because you asked me whether I want to win by posting a video and I told you that I've already won and the reason for posting the video is to investigate your manner of debating. An attitude that you continue to display up this this your last post. You're trying to avoid the issues. Always ducking and ducking and avoiding the issue.

PastorAIO:


I'm just getting started. I admit that I'm actually doing my ongoing investigations at the moment so it is a work in progress, however I can be updating you guys with new expositions as and when I discover it.

truthislight:


Sometimes it pays to take stuck of things, how did we get here on this thread that Pastor AIO is attacking JW?

What was and has been and is Pastor AIO stance and intent, what was his argument all this while on this thread before he decided to become internet collector man? What was his Argument before picking out JW as his stock in thread to attack?

The above question is what any discerning and reasonable person should find out to know the sort of person he is.

• His argument was to discredit that Moses did not write the Books that are assigned to him as the writer, that what is contained in the first five books of the Bible as we have it is Hogwash and scrappy Since according to him, it talked about Moses death. (ignoring that Joshua was always with him)

• That Yahweh claimed Cyrus to be his servant while he did not send or did anything for Cyrus, Implying that the Bible info about Cyrus is unreliable.


• That the name of Yahweh was never known by Adam other servants of God before Moses. Implying that Yahweh is a new God in the scene.

• That it is an error that the Bible was made available to all sorts of person to have access to, that it should have been left under the control of his likes and lots to use and manipulate people.


• That Moses was not inspired as in getting Messages from Yahweh. That Moses inspiration is just like his own inspiration to write a book. Implying that the claim for inspiration for Moses to have written Genesis and the other five books is hogwash. In all, that the bible is never inspired going by his argument.

• That the account of Genesis in creation is not Genuine since No one was there and Moses the supposed writer was never inspired by the Almighty.


• Since Yahweh was never known before he introduced himself to to Yahweh, He is not the almighty God, he claims.

• Claiming that Yahweh is just one of the Canaanites gods and nothing more.


• In all, his attack is geared towards the bible and Yahweh to disrepute them.
• NO WONDER HE HATES THE JW.

Meanwhile, Very well known to him, his effort and intent was quash on this thread and like a drowning person and headless snake whose body have been bruised, with severe anger, is looking for who to transfer his anger and frustrations on those who destroyed his plans here………….. He pounces on What so ever he can see before him, the one he can think of, is that Jman05 is a JW, hence he is attacking the group his narrow mind has told him is the source of the information that was used to neutralized him. Such is the Evil intent.

He had Initially started to attack @Muttleylaff, since he could not lay hands on what to attack him on, he is biting on the only object he can see, JW.

He never has the interest of the Bible, hence his reasons for attacking people on this thread.

I called this the last resort of a frustrated person. His fore bears had done worst than this anyway.

|He is a deceitful fellow, looking for more people to turned atheist.

Assuming the Likes of Jman05 and Muttleylaff did not refute his erroneous post on this thread, what would have became of some in-experience people reading? no wonder he is angry.

An evil man i tell you. he has been in this stuck in thread for only God knows how long.

truthislight:


There is nothing to avoid, the Reason i was in this thread is monotheism, diverting is Derailing.

There is nothing strange in what you are posting. Even if i detect a lie on it i will not revert to argue with you cause it is absolutely not necessary.
We are in the age of Internet, i can get any information i need.

You will rather confront me to argue Hebrew with me. Lol. keep it up. But i know i don't need to know Hebrew language to understand the msg of Everlasting life.

4kings:

Hmmm, interesting.

2) Second, Charles Taze Russell was a proven perjurer. In June of 1912, Rev. J.J. Ross of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, published a denunciatory pamphlet about Russell entitled, Some Facts About the Self-styled “pastor” Charles T. Russell. Russell in turn sued Ross for libel. During the trial which took place the following year, Ross’s defense attorney asked Russell if he knew the Greek alphabet. Russell’s reply was “Oh, yes.” When further asked to identify the Greek letters at the top of a page of the Greek Testament handed him, he was unable to do so, finally admitting that he knew nothing of the Greek alphabet. Furthermore, Russell had previously claimed to have been ordained by a recognized religious body. The defense also pressed him on this issue, finally asking point blank: “Now, you never were ordained by a bishop, clergyman, presbytery, council, or any body of men living?” Russell’s answer, after a long pause was, “I never was.” In this trial, therefore, Russell’s deliberate perjury was established beyond a reasonable doubt. (For the entire story of this trial, which includes other examples of Russell’s lying under oath, the reader is referred to p. 18-22 of Martin and Klann, Jehovah of the Watchtower, rev. ed., Grand Rapids, Zondervan, 1959)

3) Russell implied that his own "Scripture Studies" were superior to the Bible. In the Sept. 15, 1910 issue of Watch Tower, p. 298, Russell writes: “Not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see also that if anyone lays the 'Scripture Studies' aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years – if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the 'Scripture Studies' with their references and not read a page of the Bible as such, he would be in the light at the end of two years, because he would have the light of the scriptures.” Friends, this is about as dangerous as can be. Russell usurps the authority of the Holy Writ and posits that the Bible, which Witnesses claim as the inspired word of Jehovah, is inadequate by itself. Russell clearly elevated his own teachings above the authority of the Bible.

PastorAIO:
What Truthislight and JMAN05 need is a Crisis of Conscience. Just like Raymond Franz.

Who's Raymond Franz? Ray Franz was a Jehovah's witness that rose to the point of becoming a member of the Governing Council.
The Governing council is the handful of men that control the entire lives of all the JWs all over the world.
Then his conscience pricked him and he exposed the organisation.

One thing that he said and can be witness clearly on this thread is that Their man made rules took precedence over the bible.

Of course this problem is not only the JWs.
You can even find it with the pentecostals as has recently been exposed with this Tithing brouhaha
whereby on realising that the bible doesn't support their tithing practice they are so quick to throw the bible in the gutter.

anyway, check out some of what Raymond Franz has to say:
h t tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeRnVdr6NbQ

PastorAIO:
I'm finding out about the originator of JW. Apparently the man was quite a seasoned liar.
Nooooo Wonder!!! That must be why all this ducking and diving and deceitfulness since the beginning of this thread.
There is some stuff about ancient Greek in there for Truthislight who seems to get quite excited about the matter.
h t tp://www.thewarfareismental.net/b/2009/01/05/bones-to-pick-with-the-jehovahs-witnesses/

MuttleyLaff:
PastorAIO I can't believe you'll go this low to play gutter dirty.

Is it because JMAN05 said, he's sorry, he had no cure for your ailment that you went to go and dig this up, in order to get even with him?

The ailment featured in the video permeates right across every sphere of life; religious, irreligious or indifferent.

Abeggy, comot am, go park elsewhere.
Or else I go blow you whistle ooo

MuttleyLaff:




[img]https://s1/images/Whistle.gif[/img]
You had it coming
... and where is the red card, when you need one

So what has all this to do with the thread's title and original post?
Like truthislight earlier and rightly said, this has become incredibly obnoxious and irresponsible.
Have an axe to grind?

OK, then, if you must give vent to your emotions, why not open a new or separate thread, to go retch and vomit all over in?

PastorAIO:
Lol!!

Add the reference to where I said the things that you are claiming, otherwise it is just more of your deceitful JW tactics

PastorAIO:
Exodus6:3

3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as El Shaddai, but by My name, YHWH, I did not make Myself known to them.

Funny thing is that Yahweh is all over the place before Moses turns up.

PastorAIO:
Lol!!

Add the reference to where I said the things that you are claiming, otherwise it is just more of your deceitful JW tactics

PastorAIO:





Just one small point of correction for you both. Actually Cyrus did not worship Marduk. Cyrus was a worshipper of Ahura Mazda.

But there is a point where Somnaviya is a bit correct. Much of Judaism after the exile to Babylon was modelled on the religion of Ahura Mazda.


Ahura Mazda was a single creator God was no peer. It is from his religion that the whole notion of a final day of Judgement came from. They brought the idea that History was an epic battle between the forces of Light and Darkness. Almost all of the most recognisable aspects of Christianity and Judaism and Islam can be seen to be derived from the religion of Ahura Mazda even down to the use of phrases like King of Kings, Lord of Lords, in Parsee it is Shahanshah.

So please, the bible never said Marduk was the God of Cyrus.

PastorAIO:
Lol!!

Add the reference to where I said the things that you are claiming, otherwise it is just more of your deceitful JW tactics

PastorAIO:



1Thus says the Lord to his anointed ( Messiah ), to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped to subdue nations before him and strip kings of their robes, to open doors before him— and the gates shall not be closed:

Isaiah Chapter 45 verse 1.

PastorAIO:
Lol!!

Add the reference to where I said the things that you are claiming, otherwise it is just more of your deceitful JW tactics

PastorAIO:



Cyrus was such a cool guy that everybody was claiming him. Marduk's priests were claiming him, Yahweh's prophets were claiming him. But the fact remains that he was a worshiper of Ahura Mazda. I know that such a fact would pain someone like you, but sorry sorry o. He was a benefactor to Marduk, he was a benefactor to Yahweh. Yahweh didn't give him anything, he gave Yahweh his temple back. The giver is superior.

PastorAIO:
Lol!!

Add the reference to where I said the things that you are claiming, otherwise it is just more of your deceitful JW tactics

PastorAIO:


Oh no I didn't!!



Right, so Cyrus Cylinder says that Cyrus worshipped Marduk. Cyrus Cylinder was written by Marduk's priests. The text takes a form that is common when a new lineage in Babylon is established and divine validation is needed.



That your yoruba sef, you might as well have written it in Cyrillic letters.

So as you believe Marduk exists, I take it that you believe that Marduk actually came to talk to Cyrus rather than the whole thing being a fabrication of Marduk's priesthood. By the way, how many different Gods can speak to Cyrus and give him mandate? Which one is giving the real mandate?



Yes he 'said' that Marduk gave him the Mandate in Cyrus Cylinder which must mean that the Bible is lying. After all the bible makes exactly the same claims for Yahweh and Cyrus and it also quotes Cyrus as saying as much.

:

2“Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: Yahweh, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
Ezra Chapter 1.



That is just true for all of humanity and just as true for Israelite/Hebrew/Jews as it is for Persians, if not more so, and with Judaism we have plenty and plenty of evidence. More than for Persia.




I believe that the subject of much of this thread is contesting that and making the diametrical opposite claim. You guys haven't settled that yet before you go about stating claims.



According to Ezra He claimed to have got his mandate from Yahweh. He made a proclamation about it. So which is it? Marduk or Yahweh. Personally I say neither. Cyrus was just a pragmatic man who let the Marduk priests make whatever claim they wanted to make about his relationship with their God. And likewise he let the Jews make similar claims in their texts. I'm sure if we found more texts from other nations that he set free we would find more of the same but in the version of each one's own religion.




Worship of many Gods is a far cry from using images to worship God. Nice try though.



He also said that Yahweh charged him to build a house for him. And Yahweh gave him all the kingdoms. So was he lying. Which version do you want to believe? Or you don't want to recognise an astute politician when you see one?



Nothing wrong unless you claim that it is from a source other than where you are actually borrowing from. If you say the bible was written by God, then it is shocking that the creator of the whole universe should show such utter lack of creativity when it comes to writing his holy book and devising a religion.

err... Where does it say in history, the bible, or anywhere for that matter, that Magi (ie. the Priests of Ahura Mazda) went 'to Bethlehem to worship God'?

PastorAIO:
Lol!!

Add the reference to where I said the things that you are claiming, otherwise it is just more of your deceitful JW tactics

PastorAIO:


Avestan Influences on Judaism:

1) History is a battle between the forces of Light versus the forces of Darkness. One day the sons of Light will eventual win and History will be culminated.


2) The final redemption will be brought about by a Messianic figure known in Avesta as the Saoshyant. This teaching influenced Jewish Eschatological Messianism. Till today it persists amongst the Persian people, though Islamic, as the belief and expectation of someone called the Mahdi.

3) Universalism. For the first time the Avestans introduce an idea of God that is not tribal but rather their God is a god of all people throughout all of history. Anybody that gets right with Ahura Mazda and strives for the Light against Darkness (through Word, and thought and Deed) will be saved.

4) Belief in an after life. Originally Judaism didn't believe in it and even during the time of early christianity it is obvious that not all jews believed in the resurrection of the dead, it was mainly the pharisees and a few other sects like christians.

5) Linguistically the Jews borrowed appellations like 'King of Kings, and Lord of Lords' from the Persians

6) The christians too borrowed the notion that the main fields of battle between Light and Darkness is in the 3 realms of Words, Thoughts, and Deeds. In other words, what you say, what you think and what you do will manifest the battle between good and evil.

PastorAIO:
Lol!!

Add the reference to where I said the things that you are claiming, otherwise it is just more of your deceitful JW tactics

PastorAIO:
Hello, I get your drift very well and I say that you drift is the wrong drift.

Okay, you are making the big, and wrong, assumption that Moses wrote Genesis. That is a tradition that is man made. In the same Books of Moses we can read an account of Moses' death. How is that possible?

But even if we were to allow that obvious error, how do we account for Genesis 4:26.

In gen 4:26 we are told clearly and explicitly that at the time of Enosh was when people began to call on the name Yahweh.

So the name Yahweh was in use from the time of Enosh according to this passage.

PastorAIO:
Lol!!

Add the reference to where I said the things that you are claiming, otherwise it is just more of your deceitful JW tactics

PastorAIO:
Truth is light


To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time people began to call upon the name of the LORD.
Gen 4:26