The OP:


Now if u claim Gods always answers Jesus, and he will not make a wish or prayer that God will not anwser, I WILL REMIND YOU OF THE PRAYER JESUS MADE ON THE NIGHT BEFORE THE EVENT , THAT "LET THIS CUP PASS OVER ME". AS IF TO TELL THE WORLD OF HOW GOD REFUSED TO ANSWER HIS PRAYER ,IT IS CLAIMED THAT HE CREID ON THE CROSS "WHY HAS THOU FORSAKEN ME".

A wish and a prayer are two different things.

You have referred to Matthew 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Notice He would have wished the cup pass over but His prayer was that God's will be done above His personal wishes.

Next you referred to Matthew 27:46

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Notice that here Jesus is not making a request of God per se, rather He is lamenting because He was bearing our sins.

plaetton: Thanks Mr. Anony and Ihedinobi.

First, I still have not found anywhere in the bible,where it is made clear that Jesus was the son of god manifest on earth.
I fail to see how "Son of man" miraculously translates to "son of god" in your language.

With respect to Biblical affirmation that Jesus was indeed the Son of God manifest on earth,

"¹⁶ And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: ¹⁷ and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matthew 3:16,17 KJV cf: Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7 and Luke 9:35.

"¹⁵ He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? ¹⁶ And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. ¹⁷ And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 16:15-17 KJV

There's a truckload of of other Scriptures that declare that Jesus was the Son of God manifest on earth.

plaetton: So, Any prayer for forgiveness, invoked with the name of Jesus is guaranteed to be granted?
I also noticed that Jesus did not give any conditions whatsoever, he just asked that they be forgiven.
In others words, these men were not even required to acknowledged their wicked acts, let alone be remorseful and repentant.

No conditions were necessary as you will have seen from one of my foregoing posts.

plaetton: This is quite in contrast to what ijawkid and others are saying about repentence and acceptance of jesus being pre-requisites for forgiveness.

Please see my previous posts.

plaetton: This issue of forgiveness raises very serious moral questions for christianity.

First, by asking god to forgive those that crucified him, was jesus only refering to the roman soldiers that struck the nails unto the wooden cross or was it a general amnesty for all the actors in that drama, including, most prominently,the senhedrin, the jewish council of elders?
In other words, were the jews forgiven as well for their role in crucifiction?

It embraced even the "crucify him, crucify him" crowd.

plaetton: The reason I ask this is that for nearly 2 millenia, the jews have been persecuted , first by the romans, then by the newly formed Roman christian church, and then by subsequent popes and lay people throughout christendom, supposedly for being instrumental for the murder of Jesus/god.

They have been doing this all this while holding the bible and preaching the message of jesus, which ironically, mentions the very fact Jesus had asked for their forgiveness.

How does anyone explain these apparent contradictions?

It is said that not all that glitters is gold. Likewise, not everyone who proclaims allegiance to Christ is necessarily loyal to Him. So, if anyone persecuted the Jews for crucifying Jesus Christ, they were not operating in His Spirit. They acted contrary to Him.

O.K he said "IF IT IS POSSIBLE...." . Tell me what is impossible before God. This condition doesnt rule out the fact that Jesus wasnt willing to die and showed his preference for a better alternative. If God could relief Abraham of the burden of killing isaac why cant He wave his magic wand and forgive Humans instead killing an unwilling Jesus who already was sweating blood.

plaetton: Thanks Mr. Anony and Ihedinobi.

First, I still have not found anywhere in the bible,where it is made clear that Jesus was the son of god manifest on earth.
I fail to see how "Son of man" miraculously translates to "son of god" in your language.

Matt_14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Mark_1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Luke_8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

....and finally

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
John 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
John 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

I hope that's enough bible reference for you.

So, Any prayer for forgiveness, invoked with the name of Jesus is guaranteed to be granted?
I also noticed that Jesus did not give any conditions whatsoever, he just asked that they be forgiven.
In others words, these men were not even required to acknowledged their wicked acts, let alone be remorseful and repentant.

This is quite in contrast to what ijawkid and others are saying about repentence and acceptance of jesus being pre-requisites for forgiveness.

Forgiveness is not something you earn by "repenting" it is something that is offered out of the mercy of the offended and then the offender may accept it in humility.

This issue of forgiveness raises very serious moral questions for christianity.

First, by asking god to forgive those that crucified him, was jesus only refering to the roman soldiers that struck the nails unto the wooden cross or was it a general amnesty for all the actors in that drama, including, most prominently,the senhedrin, the jewish council of elders?
In other words, were the jews forgiven as well for their role in crucifiction?

Answering this question in any specifics will lead us to off-track speculations. Personally I believe that the forgiveness extended to everyone who played a part in His crucifixion, the bible didn't put specifics on which groups were included or excluded from Christ's prayer.

The reason I ask this is that for nearly 2 millenia, the jews have been persecuted , first by the romans, then by the newly formed Roman christian church, and then by subsequent popes and lay people throughout christendom, supposedly for being instrumental for the murder of Jesus/god.

They have been doing this all this while holding the bible and preaching the message of jesus, which ironically, mentions the very fact Jesus had asked for their forgiveness.

They were not practicing Christianity at all. Christianity does not persecute anybody. The bible is clear on that.

How does anyone explain these apparent contradictions?

What contradictions?

Mr_Anony:
Father forgive them for they know not what they do

a straight answer woulda been nice. are you saying the sinner doesn't have to repent just be ignorant

The OP: O.K he said "IF IT IS POSSIBLE...." . Tell me what is impossible before God. This condition doesnt rule out the fact that Jesus wasnt willing to die and showed his preference for a better alternative. If God could relief Abraham of the burden of killing isaac why cant He wave his magic wand and forgive Humans instead killing an unwilling Jesus who already was sweating blood.

Jesus was not unwilling. His words indicated as much. He went to the Cross of His Own Will and Desire. Said He, "¹⁷ Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. ¹⁸ No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Matthew 10:17-18 KJV

With respect to that prayer, in fact, Jesus indicated a preference for His Father's Will. If He did so, it would not be right to describe Him as unwilling. The fact is that the Cross was no easy job. No man could have borne it. Had Jesus been merely man and not God as well, the Cross would have destroyed Him utterly. What He was indicating in His Prayer at Gethsemane was an appreciation of the task before Him and His need for enablement and encouragement from His Father.

As to impossibilities, some things considered impossible are actually extreme possibilities when rotated. For instance, an inability to lie is actually a very strong ability and adherence to truth. Lying is actually an inability to tell the truth. So the actual limitation is to the positive rather than the negative. Was it impossible then for God to wave a magic wand and solve the problem of sin? Yes, but because that is a negative, an improper action like lying.

God is just, even if He is merciful. Therefore sin must be fully answered for. For this reason, He cannot wave a wand and forgive everyone. Somebody must make it possible for Him to "balance His moral accounts". This is what Jesus's Death enabled Him to do. Jesus took the legal and moral position of the defaulters and paid the full weight of their sin. In doing so, He made it possible for God to embrace sinners again as though they never sinned against Him. Had He not died, the only other thing God could do was to destroy humanity.

Mr_Anony:
Matt_14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Mark_1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Luke_8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

....and finally

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
John 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
John 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

I hope that's enough bible reference for you.

Forgiveness is not something you earn by "repenting" it is something that is offered out of the mercy of the offended and then the offender may accept it in humility.

Answering this question in any specifics will lead us to off-track speculations. Personally I believe that the forgiveness extended to everyone who played a part in His crucifixion, the bible didn't put specifics on which groups were included or excluded from Christ's prayer.


They were not practicing Christianity at all. Christianity does not persecute anybody. The bible is clear on that.

What contradictions?

Anony my bro are u saying that those persons who hung Jesus automatically were forgiven because Jesus made that request to his Father??

Wasn't there been forgiven also hinged on there repentance??......

If saul who later became paul that also persecuted Jesus,didn't repent,would he have been forgiven??

Let's get this straight....it is true the Father is ready to forgive persons willingly.....

But ofcus repentance is a pre-requisite to attain forgiveness....

If not everybody will walk into Gods kingdom....

God is not 1 to be mocked.....

Ihedinobi:

With respect to Biblical affirmation that Jesus was indeed the Son of God manifest on earth,

"¹⁶ And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: ¹⁷ and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matthew 3:16,17 KJV cf: Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7 and Luke 9:35.

"¹⁵ He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? ¹⁶ And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. ¹⁷ And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 16:15-17 KJV

There's a truckload of of other Scriptures that declare that Jesus was the Son of God manifest on earth.



No conditions were necessary as you will have seen from one of my foregoing posts.



Please see my previous posts.



It embraced even the "crucify him, crucify him" crowd.



It is said that not all that glitters is gold. Likewise, not everyone who proclaims allegiance to Christ is necessarily loyal to Him. So, if anyone persecuted the Jews for crucifying Jesus Christ, they were not operating in His Spirit. They acted contrary to Him.

As a good and well behaved boy when I was growing up, many elders called and refered me as "my son". I, in turn often called and refered to them as "Papa or father".
Success has many parents. People will generally call and refer to you as "my son" who makes me proud or with whom I am well pleased when you are doing something good.
That a voice from the sky making such references does not in any even imply that Jesus was a son of the maker of the universe.
If god exists, are we not all sons and daughters of god?

Inferences that Jesus was son of god are conjectures based on fantasies. jesus is son god because the religion created in his name requires him to be so.
The names Jesus and Christ were joined together for the first time by the Nicean creed, 325yrs after the facts.
Jesus was promoted god by imperial fiat and it was anathema for anyone or group who claimed otherwise.
That creed was further cemented by redacting scriptures to concur with the ecclesiastical agenda of the Roman Universal(catholica) Church.

Now back to the forgiveness issue.
Now, if the crucifiers of jesus were forgiven by god, it meant that they did not have to account for or face judgement, and therefore, would, right now , be enjoying eternal life in heaven.
Is this correct?

ijawkid:

Anony my bro are u saying that those persons who hung Jesus automatically were forgiven because Jesus made that request to his Father??

Wasn't there been forgiven also hinged on there repentance??......

If saul who later became paul that also persecuted Jesus,didn't repent,would he have been forgiven??

Let's get this straight....it is true the Father is ready to forgive persons willingly.....

But ofcus repentance is a pre-requisite to attain forgiveness....

If not everybody will walk into Gods kingdom....

God is not 1 to be mocked.....

Note one thing first, I am not saying that the crucifiers were automatically justified no. What I am saying is that they were forgiven for the act of crucifying Him.

Another thing......you are treating repentance as if it is a task that someone has to do to be saved. That is not what repentance is.

The whole thing about grace is that you cannot earn it. repentance is feeling remorse, forsaking sin and pleading for for forgiveness. It is now up to the mercy of the judge whether to forgive you or not. God is merciful so He will forgive but it is not your repentance that bought forgiveness for you, it is God's mercy.

Consider the paralyzed man that Jesus healed by telling him "your sins are forgiven"

The moment you begin to think that you were forgiven just because you repented, then it is no longer grace but earned wages (this is not biblical)

Ihedinobi:

Jesus was not unwilling. His words indicated as much. He went to the Cross of His Own Will and Desire. Said He, "¹⁷ Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. ¹⁸ No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Matthew 10:17-18 KJV

With respect to that prayer, in fact, Jesus indicated a preference for His Father's Will. If He did so, it would not be right to describe Him as unwilling. The fact is that the Cross was no easy job. No man could have borne it. Had Jesus been merely man and not God as well, the Cross would have destroyed Him utterly. What He was indicating in His Prayer at Gethsemane was an appreciation of the task before Him and His need for enablement and encouragement from His Father.

As to impossibilities, some things considered impossible are actually extreme possibilities when rotated. For instance, an inability to lie is actually a very strong ability and adherence to truth. Lying is actually an inability to tell the truth. So the actual limitation is to the positive rather than the negative. Was it impossible then for God to wave a magic wand and solve the problem of sin? Yes, but because that is a negative, an improper action like lying.

God is just, even if He is merciful. Therefore sin must be fully answered for. For this reason, He cannot wave a wand and forgive everyone. Somebody must make it possible for Him to "balance His moral accounts". This is what Jesus's Death enabled Him to do. Jesus took the legal and moral position of the defaulters and paid the full weight of their sin. In doing so, He made it possible for God to embrace sinners again as though they never sinned against Him. Had He not died, the only other thing God could do was to destroy humanity.

Well said. Better than I would have put it myself

plaetton:

As a good and well behaved boy when I was growing up, many elders called and refered me as "my son". I, in turn often called and refered to them as "Papa or father".
Success has many parents. People will generally call and refer to you as "my son" who makes me proud or with whom I am well pleased when you are doing something good.
That a voice from the sky making such references does not in any even imply that Jesus was a son of the maker of the universe.
If god exists, are we not all sons and daughters of god?

Inferences that Jesus was son of god are conjectures based on fantasies. jesus is son god because the religion created in his name requires him to be so.
The names Jesus and Christ were joined together for the first time by the Nicean creed, 325yrs after the facts.
Jesus was promoted god by imperial fiat and it was anathema for anyone or group who claimed otherwise.
That creed was further cemented by redacting scriptures to concur with the ecclesiastical agenda of the Roman Universal(catholica) Church.

Lol, of course I didn't think you would accept it.

Please do us a favour: Next time you know that you don't want to believe what the bible says, don't bother asking for biblical proof. It will save us all some wasted effort.

Now back to the forgiveness issue.
Now, if the crucifiers of jesus were forgiven by god, it meant that they did not have to account for or face judgement, and therefore, would, right now , be enjoying eternal life in heaven.
Is this correct?

No it doesn't follow. What we can know for sure is that the sin of crucifying Jesus will not be counted against them. Other subsequent sins are another matter entirely.

Mr_Anony:
For exercise purposes, could you be so nice as to paint for us a step by step scenario of where you offend your mortal father (who we'll assume loves you) and how you go about obtaining forgiveness?
please don't leave out to state the consequence of your offence had you not been forgiven.

sure: for our own good we have a 9 pm curfew at my house, violaters get 10 lashes of the italian leather belt, I break curfew, I run to my father, admit am wrong, promise not to do it again, father sees am truly sorry, forgives me and says "go forth and sin no more." that's it.

I dont expect my father to insist that even though he has forgiven me he still has to lash somebody so he'll just lash the youngest child for my transgressions.

Mr_Anony:
Matt_14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Mark_1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Luke_8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

....and finally

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
John 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
John 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

I hope that's enough bible reference for you.

Forgiveness is not something you earn by "repenting" it is something that is offered out of the mercy of the offended and then the offender may accept it in humility.

Answering this question in any specifics will lead us to off-track speculations. Personally I believe that the forgiveness extended to everyone who played a part in His crucifixion, the bible didn't put specifics on which groups were included or excluded from Christ's prayer.


They were not practicing Christianity at all. Christianity does not persecute anybody. The bible is clear on that.

What contradictions?

Many followers and faithfuls see T.B Joshua as a great teacher, healer, prophet and miracle worker. If these people were to write books about him today, what do you think they would write about him?
Do you think they would most likely exaggerate his so-called miraculous abilities, or would they likely put a more critical focus on his antics?.

Would they likely promote him as the high prophet of the living god or a clever manipulator and illusionist?

Saying that Jesus is son of god because his disciples believed and said so is quite laughable.

Everyday I hear something new from christians.

So forgiveness is not to be earned by repentence and restitution, by rests soley on the whims or grace of god?
This is quite contrary to what you said on another thread sometime ago. Infact, you made it clear that restitution was a pre-condition for forgiveness.

plaetton:

As a good and well behaved boy when I was growing up, many elders called and refered me as "my son". I, in turn often called and refered to them as "Papa or father".
Success has many parents. People will generally call and refer to you as "my son" who makes me proud or with whom I am well pleased when you are doing something good.
That a voice from the sky making such references does not in any even imply that Jesus was a son of the maker of the universe.
If god exists, are we not all sons and daughters of god?

Inferences that Jesus was son of god are conjectures based on fantasies. jesus is son god because the religion created in his name requires him to be so.
The names Jesus and Christ were joined together for the first time by the Nicean creed, 325yrs after the facts.
Jesus was promoted god by imperial fiat and it was anathema for anyone or group who claimed otherwise.
That creed was further cemented by redacting scriptures to concur with the ecclesiastical agenda of the Roman Universal(catholica) Church.

Now back to the forgiveness issue.
Now, if the crucifiers of jesus were forgiven by god, it meant that they did not have to account for or face judgement, and therefore, would, right now , be enjoying eternal life in heaven.
Is this correct?

I agree with Mr Anony. If you didn't want Biblical proof, you shouldn't have said, "I still have not found anywhere in the Bible where it is made clear that Jesus was the son of god manifest on the earth". All we were doing was showing you places where it was so made clear in the Bible. We weren't arguing for the propriety or the logic of it. That is another matter, isn't it?

I'm also with Mr Anony on the forgiveness issue. It is not correct to say that because Jesus's killers were forgiven for killing Him that they automatically gained eternal life. They would have other sins to account for if they did not accept Jesus's Righteousness as their own before God the Judge.

plaetton:

As a good and well behaved boy when I was growing up, many elders called and refered me as "my son". I, in turn often called and refered to them as "Papa or father".
Success has many parents. People will generally call and refer to you as "my son" who makes me proud or with whom I am well pleased when you are doing something good.
That a voice from the sky making such references does not in any even imply that Jesus was a son of the maker of the universe.
If god exists, are we not all sons and daughters of god?

Inferences that Jesus was son of god are conjectures based on fantasies. jesus is son god because the religion created in his name requires him to be so.
The names Jesus and Christ were joined together for the first time by the Nicean creed, 325yrs after the facts.
Jesus was promoted god by imperial fiat and it was anathema for anyone or group who claimed otherwise.
That creed was further cemented by redacting scriptures to concur with the ecclesiastical agenda of the Roman Universal(catholica) Church.

Now back to the forgiveness issue.
Now, if the crucifiers of jesus were forgiven by god, it meant that they did not have to account for or face judgement, and therefore, would, right now , be enjoying eternal life in heaven.
Is this correct?

I agree with Mr Anony. If you didn't want Biblical proof, you shouldn't have said, "I still have not found anywhere in the Bible where it is made clear that Jesus was the son of god manifest on the earth". All we were doing was showing you places where it was so made clear in the Bible. We weren't arguing for the propriety or the logic of it. That is another matter, isn't it?

I'm also with Mr Anony on the forgiveness issue. It is not correct to say that because Jesus's killers were forgiven for killing Him that they automatically gained eternal life. They would have other sins to account for if they did not accept Jesus's Righteousness as their own before God the Judge.

Mr_Anony:
Note one thing first, I am not saying that the crucifiers were automatically justified no. What I am saying is that they were forgiven for the act of crucifying Him.

Another thing......you are treating repentance as if it is a task that someone has to do to be saved. That is not what repentance is.

The whole thing about grace is that you cannot earn it. repentance is feeling remorse, forsaking sin and pleading for for forgiveness. It is now up to the mercy of the judge whether to forgive you or not. God is merciful so He will forgive but it is not your repentance that bought forgiveness for you, it is God's mercy.

Consider the paralyzed man that Jesus healed by telling him "your sins are forgiven"

The moment you begin to think that you were forgiven just because you repented, then it is no longer grace but earned wages (this is not biblical)

I knw its up to God to forgive us even when we are repentant....its is Gods mercifulness that does buy us forgiveness...

But ofcus it don't come free of charge...we work for it men....

From ur stance on this issue u mite be insinuating that all persons will inherit Gods kingdom...

Then why are may whole hearted christians workin so hard to be upright,turn around from there bad ways,while some will just be forgiven without working to earn it.....

Its a 2 way thing.....

We need Gods mercy to be forgiven and also we work for it....it is infact biblical......

If those persons who hung Jesus never turned around from there bad ways there is no way God will forgive them.....God is not a mumu.....

And I cited d case of saul who later became paul that also persecuted Christ(by persecutibg christs brothers)....

On what basis was paul forgiven apart from Gods mercy??

plaetton:

Many followers and faithfuls see T.B Joshua as a great teacher, healer, prophet and miracle worker. If these people were to write books about him today, what do you think they would write about him?
Do you think they would most likely exaggerate his so-called miraculous abilities, or would they likely put a more critical focus on his antics?.

Would they likely promote him as the high prophet of the living god or a clever manipulator and illusionist?

Saying that Jesus is son of god because his disciples believed and said so is quite laughable.

You are merely speculating here about what TB Joshua's followers may or may not say about him.
It is interesting how you are willing to accept "Son of Man" yet reject "Son of God" both from the same testimony of the disciples. Why the double standard?
Doesn't this tell you that your point of contention really has nothing to do with what the disciples believed?

You are only making your judgment based on what you feel comfortable with.

Everyday I hear something new from christians.

So forgiveness is not to be earned by repentence and restitution, by rests soley on the whims or grace of god?
This is quite contrary to what you said on another thread sometime ago. Infact, you made it clear that restitution was a pre-condition for forgiveness.

Please quote or post a link

Ihedinobi:

I agree with Mr Anony. If you didn't want Biblical proof, you shouldn't have said, "I still have not found anywhere in the Bible where it is made clear that Jesus was the son of god manifest on the earth". All we were doing was showing you places where it was so made clear in the Bible. We weren't arguing for the propriety or the logic of it. That is another matter, isn't it?

I'm also with Mr Anony on the forgiveness issue. It is not correct to say that because Jesus's killers were forgiven for killing Him that they automatically gained eternal life. They would have other sins to account for if they did not accept Jesus's Righteousness as their own before God the Judge.

By biblical proof I meant instances where jesus would have clearly and unequivocally said so. To the disciples, Jesus could have been anything them wanted or fantasised him to be.

Mr_Anony:
You are merely speculating here about what TB Joshua's followers may or may not say about him.
It is interesting how you are willing to accept "Son of Man" yet reject "Son of God" both from the same testimony of the disciples. Why the double standard?
Doesn't this tell you that your point of contention really has nothing to do with what the disciples believed?

You are only making your judgment based on what you feel comfortable with.


Please quote or post a link

Yes , jesus referred to himself many times as son of man. His disciples referred to him as son of god. I chose son of man because it is right from he horses mouth, you chose son of god, because that is what you , and his disciples, desperately want him to be.

The question was asked whether a robber who robs and kills could repent, accept jesus ,asks for forgiveness, would indeed be forgiven by god.
Here is your quote that I was referring to:


There is a part of repentance called restitution. If one receives Christ, it doesn't absolve him from bearing the consequences of his crime. He should be willing to face them.

plaetton:

By biblical proof I meant instances where jesus would have clearly and unequivocally said so. To the disciples, Jesus could have been anything them wanted or fantasised him to be.

If I showed you one such place, would you believe?

plaetton:

Yes , jesus referred to himself many times as son of man. His disciples referred to him as son of god. I chose son man because it is right from he horses mouth, you chose son of god, because that is what you , and his disciples, desperately want him to be.

The question was asked whether a robber who robs and kills could repent, accept jesus ,asks for forgiveness, would indeed be forgiven by god.
Here is your quote that I was referring to:


There is a part of repentance called restitution. If one receives Christ, it doesn't absolve him from bearing the consequences of his crime. He should be willing to face them.

I can show you parts where Jesus said so Himself. Besides if Jesus continually referred to God as His Father, I don't know what other horse's mouth proof you need really.

To the second part, I don't see how that contradicts what I am saying today. Nothing about it says that forgiveness can be earned.

F00028: a straight answer woulda been nice. are you saying the sinner doesn't have to repent just be ignorant

I think my answer was straightforward enough.

F00028:
sure: for our own good we have a 9 pm curfew at my house, violaters get 10 lashes of the italian leather belt, I break curfew, I run to my father, admit am wrong, promise not to do it again, father sees am truly sorry, forgives me and says "go forth and sin no more." that's it.

I dont expect my father to insist that even though he has forgiven me he still has to lash somebody so he'll just lash the youngest child for my transgressions.

Good. now let us look at your analogy shall we?

Now, the consequences of breaking curfew is that danger may befall you outside. Flogging is not the true consequence of of breaking curfew, it is just a corrective measure to keep you in check. That's an aside.

Now let us come to the part where you admit you are wrong:- I want you to note that by admitting your wrongdoing, you are essentially accepting that you deserve punishment, therefore any punishment meted out to you is justified.

...promising that you will not do it again is fine but it does not get you of the hook. In fact if you are truly repentant, you will not be using that phrase with the hope of manipulating the situation so that you can go scot-free. Rather you will be saying it because you realize that what you did was wrong and ought never to be repeated.

Now this being your state, you can only hope that your father will forgive you and let things go. By law, you deserve punishment. For your father to forgive you, he has to withhold the law. In essence, every time your father shows mercy, he is abusing his laws.

Do you get it up to this point?

Mr_Anony:
I can show you parts where Jesus said so Himself. Besides if Jesus continually referred to God as His Father, I don't know what other horse's mouth proof you need really.

To the second part, I don't see how that contradicts what I am saying today. Nothing about it says that forgiveness can be earned.

Do you not and have you not in countless times referred to god as your father?
Mr anony is the son of in flesh god. ha ha

What do you understand by the word Christ?
When and why did the name Jesus and the word Christ become used together?

If you understand what the word, the abstract principle of the kristos, really means, then you might have a better understanding of the message that Jesus was trying to convey.
Unfortunately, that message was not even allowed to gain a foothold before it was deliberately perverted , in order that plebians might, as they have correctly done, ignore the message and worship the messenger.

Sorry jesus, you failed, albeit, by no fault of yours.
On second thought, you should have written your teachings yourself.
Big mistake.

That is the tragedy of christianity.
What a tragedy indeed.

Mr_Anony:
I think my answer was straightforward enough.


Good. now let us look at your analogy shall we?

Now, the consequences of breaking curfew is that danger may befall you outside. Flogging is not the true consequence of of breaking curfew, it is just a corrective measure to keep you in check. That's an aside.

Now let us come to the part where you admit you are wrong:- I want you to note that by admitting your wrongdoing, you are essentially accepting that you deserve punishment, therefore any punishment meted out to you is justified.

...promising that you will not do it again is fine but it does not get you of the hook. In fact if you are truly repentant, you will not be using that phrase with the hope of manipulating the situation so that you can go scot-free. Rather you will be saying it because you realize that what you did was wrong and ought never to be repeated.

Now this being your state, you can only hope that your father will forgive you and let things go. By law, you deserve punishment. For your father to forgive you, he has to withhold the law. In essence, every time your father shows mercy, he is abusing his laws.

Do you get it up to this point?

Most definitely couldn't have put it this well, bro

ijawkid:

I knw its up to God to forgive us even when we are repentant....its is Gods mercifulness that does buy us forgiveness...

But ofcus it don't come free of charge...we work for it men....

From ur stance on this issue u mite be insinuating that all persons will inherit Gods kingdom...

Then why are may whole hearted christians workin so hard to be upright,turn around from there bad ways,while some will just be forgiven without working to earn it.....

Its a 2 way thing.....

We need Gods mercy to be forgiven and also we work for it....it is infact biblical......

If those persons who hung Jesus never turned around from there bad ways there is no way God will forgive them.....God is not a mumu.....

And I cited d case of saul who later became paul that also persecuted Christ(by persecutibg christs brothers)....

On what basis was paul forgiven apart from Gods mercy??

let me paint a small analogy for you:

Let us say I insulted you last night, and this morning, I came begging for your forgiveness. If you forgive me, It is not because I did anything to deserve it neither can I do anything to deserve it. It is not even because I begged. I can only hope that out of your good will, you'll find it in our heart to forgive me.

Now after forgiving me, it is because I respect your person that I will try not to offend you again. but let's say I mistakenly do, I must still depend on you to be merciful again and so on and so forth.

Notice that it is not my niceness to you that keeps me forgiven, forgiveness is entirely your decision. There is nothing I can do to earn it.

If my goodness gains me forgiveness, then I no longer have to ask for your forgiveness when next I offend you, all I have to do is do something good like buy you ice-cream or wash your car (basically bribing you)

The kind of person God is is such that He will forgive you over and over again. However God is not mocked, He knows when we are sincere and when we are faking it. It is not by who works at all.

Those people who crucified Christ were forgiven for that particular sin however, if they go on sinning without repentance they will have to pay for it but not for the sin of crucifying Christ.

We cannot work for mercy at all else it is no longer mercy but earned wages.

Consider Romans 4:2-4

Ihedinobi:

Most definitely couldn't have put it this well, bro

Ya ya . what else is new?

Mr otimkpu.

plaetton:

Do you not and have you not in countless times referred to god as your father?
Mr anony is the son of in flesh god. ha ha

What do you understand by the word Christ?
When and why did the name Jesus and the word Christ become used together?

If you understand what the word, the abstract principle of the kristos, really means, then you might have a better understanding of the message that Jesus was trying to convey.
Unfortunately, that message was not even allowed to gain a foothold before it was deliberately perverted , in order that plebians might, as they have correctly done, ignore the message and worship the messenger.

Sorry jesus, you failed, albeit, by no fault of yours.
On second thought, you should have written your teachings yourself.
Big mistake.

That is the tragedy of christianity.
What a tragedy indeed.

lol, my friend, you make laugh. You asked to be shown, you were shown. You refused to believe. I leave you to your biases.
Frankly, I think the main questions you have raised in this thread have been sufficiently answered.
Continuing to reply you can only lead us into circles and tangents and shouting matches.

Mr_Anony:
let me paint a small analogy for you:

Let us say I insulted you last night, and this morning, I came begging for your forgiveness. If you forgive me, It is not because I did anything to deserve it neither can I do anything to deserve it. It is not even because I begged. I can only hope that out of your good will, you'll find it in our heart to forgive me.

Now after forgiving me, it is because I respect your person that I will try not to offend you again. but let's say I mistakenly do, I must still depend on you to be merciful again and so on and so forth.

Notice that it is not my niceness to you that keeps me forgiven, forgiveness is entirely your decision. There is nothing I can do to earn it.

If my goodness gains me forgiveness, then I no longer have to ask for your forgiveness when next I offend you, all I have to do is do something good like buy you ice-cream or wash your car (basically bribing you)

The kind of person God is is such that He will forgive you over and over again. However God is not mocked, He knows when we are sincere and when we are faking it. It is not by who works at all.

Those people who crucified Christ were forgiven for that particular sin however, if they go on sinning without repentance they will have to pay for it but not for the sin of crucifying Christ.

We cannot work for mercy at all else it is no longer mercy but earned wages.

Consider Romans 4:2-4

I was speaking on forgiveness on a larger scale.....its ok...

I would say Jesus did knw that some of those persons who did persecute him will one day come to acknowledge him as Gods son and exercise faith in his sacrificial death,that's why he prayed for his Father to forgive them...

Those guys had to make themselves available if they had to benefit from Jesus's request to the Father...that was how paul did benefit ...isn't it??

I understand ur point...make no mistake about that......

But still on our part or on a sinners part he or she needs to display remorse and repentance to enjoy Yahwehs forgiveness........

Its just like a scholarship scheme that is open to the public,but only those who qualify attain it......

one way or the other our own effort is needed....


There has to be a balance.....

ijawkid:

I was speaking on forgiveness on a larger scale.....its ok...

I would say Jesus did knw that some of those persons who did persecute him will one day come to acknowledge him as Gods son and exercise faith in his sacrificial death,that's why he prayed for his Father to forgive them...

Those guys had to make themselves available if they had to benefit from Jesus's request to the Father...that was how paul did benefit ...isn't it??

I understand ur point...make no mistake about that......

But still on our part or on a sinners part he or she needs to display remorse and repentance to enjoy Yahwehs forgiveness........

Its just like a scholarship scheme that is open to the public,but only those who qualify attain it......

one way or the other our own effort is needed....


There has to be a balance.....

Good, I get your point but the last part is where you are missing it.

You are still looking at repentance as something that you make yourself do. That is not what repentance is.

Let me ask you a question.

If someone is making himself to feel remorse, is he really remorseful?

Ihedinobi:

Jesus was not unwilling.

Really?

Your argument does not fly for the simple reason that his petition was to GOD and not to men - as he said he received this command from God - and not from men. It is thus God he petitioned to avoid it "if possible". As such,the statement "no man taketh my life from me" does not negate the fact that he was unwilling to go through with it.

I have oft said that the prayer in Gethsemane is one of the most potent scriptural pointers against the doctrine of the Trinity.

I posted this arguing this same point with Davidylan years ago -

Here we go again: If Jesus were God, why would he stop a man from calling him good, insisting - no - "only God is Good? " Did Jesus (" God " become less good by dint of being upon the earth?

Did the import of 1 Tim. 2:5 miss you when it states that “there is ONLY ONE GOD, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Jesus Christ.”

What do you understand by the word “mediator”? Can you realistically claim that a mediator is the same person as one of the entities he is acting as a go-between for? You know that is frankly absurd.

Can you tell me if Jesus is equal to the Father. If he is, can you educate me on what he could possibly have meant when he stated : “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28).

Most importantly, can you shed light on Jesus’ repeated references to “his God.” He clearly showed himself to be worshipping God, even praying to God on several occasions. Could God pray to God?

[b]The most spectacular of all his prayers, for me, is the statement in Gethsemane – “Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt”

This statement shows something cardinal: if Jesus were God, as you lot like to claim, his will, and the will of the Father would be absolutely inseparable! This prayer shows clearly that the Father’s will could be different from Jesus’ will, when he says – “not as I will, but as thou wilt”. For me this is the most damning verse against the idea that Jesus is himself God. Because it shows a clear dichotomy of WILL between the father and the so called “son.” But I expect that in your usual fashion you will disregard Jesus’ own words in favour of your dogma.

In defending this, don’t you even dare bring up the lame line that it was his “human fear” that was speaking. Even mere mortals have shown great courage at the point of execution, or in battle, and you want to convince me that ALMIGHTY GOD, in human form, was not capable of stout hearted courage (especially when he was divine, and knew the purpose of his mission on the cross, and how sacred it was).[/b] Mere men have laid down their lives for their countries, happily and without asking for the cup to be removed from them. Gallantly! Now GOD himself, in human form, is not capable of such courage, to save his creatures?

Finally it is most pertinent to note that Jesus showed what sort of relationship he had with God when he says – “I am ascending to your father and my father, my God and your God”. [John 20:17]

This makes it pretty clear that in the same way as God is father for us, he is Father for Jesus, and that in the same way as God is God for us, he is God for Jesus.

No wonder 1 Pet. 1:3 – “Praise be to the God and father of our lord Jesus Christ!”



https://www.nairaland.com/344297/dr-david-sheds-some-light/1

@ijawkid

Please allow me to butt in here.

This

ijawkid:

I knw its up to God to forgive us even when we are repentant....its is Gods mercifulness that does buy us forgiveness...

and this

ijawkid: But ofcus it don't come free of charge...we work for it men....

are actually contradictions of each other. If we work for forgiveness, then God's "mercifulness" would not be enough to buy it.

ijawkid: From ur stance on this issue u mite be insinuating that all persons will inherit Gods kingdom...

I think that it has been made clear that as long as the root of sin remains in a life, it is no matter that God has, because someone asked Him to, forgiven all of the person's sins, such a person cannot inherit eternal life. The acts of sin can be forgiven on the strength of the worthiness of the intercessor, but the presence or absence of the nature of Christ in the person is what determines their entry into eternal life.

ijawkid: Then why are may whole hearted christians workin so hard to be upright,turn around from there bad ways,while some will just be forgiven without working to earn it.....

No true Christian is laboring for righteousness. Every true Christian is already in possession of Jesus Christ's righteousness and is utterly justified before God. The labors of a true Christian are more the bringing out of what is within. If a Christian tells the truth, it is because his new nature dictates that he tell the truth rather than lie. If there is effort, it is the Holy Spirit's not the Christian's. The Christian's part is always only to agree with the Spirit of God at work in Him.

ijawkid: Its a 2 way thing.....

We need Gods mercy to be forgiven and also we work for it....it is infact biblical......

In fact, it is not. The Bible says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8 RSV

ijawkid: If those persons who hung Jesus never turned around from there bad ways there is no way God will forgive them.....God is not a mumu.....

Of course He is not. And He is just. And if He has given anyone the power to forgive sins and such a one asks Him to forgive some offender for a particular sin, He would be dishonest not to forgive them.

I have to point out again that forgiving any given person of one or many sins is not the same as granting them eternal life.

ijawkid: And I cited d case of saul who later became paul that also persecuted Christ(by persecutibg christs brothers)....

On what basis was paul forgiven apart from Gods mercy??

Again, if it was God's mercy, then it wasn't merely Paul's repentance.


As a bonus, let me say that repentance is just the means by which we accept God's forgiveness. It is not what we pay for it.


EDIT: Sorry, this came before I saw Mr Anony's answer to you and your subsequent conversation. My Internet has been quite slow. My apologies.

Deep Sight:

Really?

Your argument does not fly for the simple reason that his petition was to GOD and not to men. As such,the statement "no man taketh my life from me" does not negate the fact that he was unwilling to go through with it.

I have oft said that the prayer in Gethsemane is one of the most potent scriptural pointers against the doctrine of the Trinity.

I posted this arguing this same point with Davidylan years ago -

[color=#000099][/color]

Deepsight, I believe you understand the bible quite well. Are you willing to discuss the deity of Jesus Christ/Trinity based on the bible?