F00028: I AGREE..but (you knew this was coming) once you have been forgiven there is no need to punish you or any one else in your stead.

Would you say that there's need to ensure no further hurt or infringement?

Ihedinobi:

Wow, bro. That is a very clear way to put it @bolded. Thank you.

True bro, consider the repentance of the prodigal son "....I am no longer worthy to be called your son..."

and here's the cool part of the story.....

.....but the father hugged him and said: "Kill the fatted calf!"

Mr_Anony:

I agree that a wrong-doer can truly and sincerely be sorry. However, his sincerity does nothing to absolve him from his crime neither does his sincerity mandate the judge to forgive him....

I didn't say sincerity absolves. sincere repentance is a major factor in obtaining forgiveness. what does absolve is the forgiveness from the one offended (not just a mere uninvolved judge). stop mixing up the two.

Mr_Anony:
Sincere repentance can be described as
the realization that you are in the
wrong, that you deserve punishment
and that you are willing to accept the
deserved punishment.
Repentance is never done in the hope
that punishment will be withheld,
rather it is a surrender to justice. When
you ask for forgiveness, you are not
asking not to be punished, what you
are really asking for is that your
relationship with the offended be
restored.

I AGREE..but (you knew this was coming) once you have been forgiven there is no need to punish you or any one else in your stead.

.

Ihedinobi:

Wow, bro. That is a very clear way to put it @bolded. Thank you.

please see my response to Mr. Anony...lol

Mr_Anony:
True bro, consider the repentance of the prodigal son "....I am no longer worthy to be called your son..."

and here's the cool part of the story.....

.....but the father hugged him and said: "Kill the fatted calf!"

Awesome!!!

F00028:
please see my response to Mr. Anony...lol

I did. But it didn't quite answer my question. My question was "would you say that there's no need to ensure no further hurt or infringement?"

Ihedinobi:

Please see my response to Ptolomeus.

I did. I dont know what language you speaking. It seemed you were thinking and latin and writing in english. I have no idea of the point you were trying to make or its bearing on my presentation of the Nicean creed.

The Nicean creed is bunch of dogma drawn up by a bunch of men, presided over by non other than the murderous emperor himself, who wanted to create a unique religion. No divine authority nominated them to do so. Their agendas were purely politcal and as we can read from last paragraph, they employed intimidation, corcion and brutal force to deal with anyone or group who did not accept the [b]rules of belief [/b]that they had crafted.

These are well known historical facts. Do not insult us by trying to spin this with some kind of convoluted logic.

The glaring facts are that Jesus was promoted,crowned and decreed to be god by the council of Nicea.
Anyone who disgreed or had a contrary opinion had to face the imperial might of Rome. Fact. ok

F00028:

I didn't say sincerity absolves. sincere repentance is a major factor in obtaining forgiveness. what does absolve is the forgiveness from the one offended (not just a mere uninvolved judge). stop mixing up the two.

My bad....of course it is the forgiveness that absolves not the repentance...and yes repentance is a major factor but is not the determining factor. The determining factor for absolution lies with the offended and his/her willingness to forgive. The offended is under no obligation to forgive merely because the offender was repentant

I AGREE..but (you knew this was coming) once you have been forgiven there is no need to punish you or any one else in your stead.

Good you have got me so far. Now coming to getting born again,

note that by repenting, you are agreeing that you deserve to be punished and you are willing to be punished.

note also that at the point of your repentance, Christ has already paid the price and been punished for your sins.

Why would God have it that way? Because God by nature of who He is, must mete out justice. The sacrifice of Christ - having been crucified and resurrected - is how God shows mercy and at the same time metes out justice.

Now this is the Gift God has given us. If we are truly repentant, and we have been offered mercy we would accept it with joy because now we are reconciled to God and can have a relationship with Him again.

On the flipside,

we have come to the point that we have recognized our offense and that we deserve to be punished but yet we reject His mercy, then we leave Him no other choice than to give us the punishment we deserve.

The good news of salvation is that all of us have sinned and fallen short of God's glory but God so loved us that He gave His only begotten Son for us so that as many of us who will accept this love will not perish because of our sins but have abundant life (life with God)

Ihedinobi:

I beg you will excuse my language in debate. I'm sure that you noted the context of that comment. It was a response to Ptolomeus and followed a pattern.

Anyway, if it will help you deal with my position, I will declare to you now that I'm absolutely certain that the reason you will find no specific crystallized teaching on the Godhead in the Bible is that it is the fundamental on which the entire Bible is built.

As for the bolded, you are actually making my point. The Bible is founded on the oneness and absolute unity of the Godhead. That is what the Doctrine of the Trinity holds. That although there are multiple Persons in the Godhead, their unity is utterly complete, that although each One has Their Own Will, Their Own Desire, Their Own Preferences, They always choose they same things, desire/want the same things, prefer the same things. They are in absolute unity such that God is essentially One. Or else why the need at all to declare that God is One?

When you say the bible, do you mean the NT or the whole bible?
The OT is replete with mentions and instances of other gods. I think we have discussed this in othe other threads. Just be specific when you say "the bible".

Ihedinobi:

Would you say that there's need to ensure no further hurt or infringement?

of course.

Mr_Anony:
True bro, consider the repentance of the prodigal son "....I am no longer worthy to be called your son..."

and here's the cool part of the story.....

.....but the father hugged him and said: "Kill the fatted calf!"

well, they very well couldn't eat it alive, now could they?

or do you mean to imply killing the calf was just to wash away the sins of child

F00028:
well, they very well couldn't eat it alive, now could they?

or do you mean to imply killing the calf was just to wash away the sins of child

SMH

plaetton:

I did. I dont know what language you speaking. It seemed you were thinking and latin and writing in english. I have no idea of the point you were trying to make or its bearing on my presentation of the Nicean creed.

The Nicean creed is bunch of dogma drawn up by a bunch of men, presided over by non other than the murderous emperor himself, who wanted to create a unique religion. No divine authority nominated them to do so. Their agendas were purely politcal and as we can read from last paragraph, they employed intimidation, corcion and brutal force to deal with anyone or group who did not accept the [b]rules of belief [/b]that they had crafted.

These are well known historical facts. Do not insult us by trying to spin this with some kind of convoluted logic.

The glaring facts are that Jesus was promoted,crowned and decreed to be god by the council of Nicea.
Anyone who disgreed or had a contrary opinion had to face the imperial might of Rome. Fact. ok

lol.... You see, the problem here is that you have taken historical information put a spin on it and named it fact and demand that we accept it. Why should we? Can you cite any authority that supports your submission that Christianity was practically defined and established at that council?

plaetton:

When you say the bible, do you mean the NT or the whole bible?
[b]The OT is replete with mentions and instances of other gods. [/b]I think we have discussed this in othe other threads. Just be specific when you say "the bible".

lol, here we go again....what next now? Enuma elish?

plaetton:

When you say the bible, do you mean the NT or the whole bible?
The OT is replete with mentions and instances of other gods. I think we have discussed this in othe other threads. Just be specific when you say "the bible".

Yeah, I mean the Bible, Old Testament and New. What other gods and in what context were they mentioned?

F00028:
of course.

Well, that's what Jesus's Death was about. The sacrifice was not only to secure forgiveness for sin but to end totally the reign of sin. Anyone under that umbrella is free from that tendency to offend and therefore will no more infringe God's Laws.

Ihedinobi:

lol.... You see, the problem here is that you have taken historical information put a spin on it and named it fact and demand that we accept it. Why should we? Can you cite any authority that supports your submission that Christianity was practically defined and established at that council?

The Nicean Creed is here for everyone to see. Is it not a guideline, no,a decree of what christians were or are expected to believe?
Does the Nicean creed not establish the arcicles of christain faith?

plaetton:

The Nicean Creed is here for everyone to see. Is it not a guideline, no,a decree of what christians were or are expected to believe?
Does the Nicean creed not establish the arcicles of christain faith?

No it does not, Jesus Christ does.

Let me help my beloved non-PC brothers, the Nicean Creed introduced some of the most heretical beliefs into Christianity.

Mr_Anony:
lol, here we go again....what next now? Enuma elish?

I wonder......

Let me leave my brothers in peace

.

frosbel: Let me help my beloved non-PC brothers, the Nicean Creed introduced some of the most heretical beliefs into Christianity.

Thank you Frosbel.
And these heretical beliefs were enforced, entrenched and propagated over the millenia by the brute power of imperial Rome and later by Papal authority.
Not so?

My contention is that the deification of Jesus was the most signicant of such heresies.

F00028:
well, they very well couldn't eat it alive, now could they?

or do you mean to imply killing the calf was just to wash away the sins of child

lol...... You really didn't get it?

plaetton:

Thank you Frosbel.
And these heretical beliefs were enforced, entrenched and propagated over the millenia by the brute power of imperial Rome and later by Papal authority.
Not so?

My contention is that the deification of Jesus was the most signicant of such heresies.

The divinity of Christ as the SON of GOD is unquestionable and neither is his Lordship.

However , the Trinity doctrine as perpetuated by the catholic church over a number of centuries is grossly misrepresentative of the biblical position.

The biblical position which must always be taken at face value simply portrays Jesus as the Son of God who sacrificed his life as ordained by the Father for the redemption of mankind from SIN.

The 3-god God is totally contrary and in some ways almost blasphemous to God.

How on earth can people come up with a most improbable mathematical formula of 1+1+1 = 1 , this is truly baffling.


Let us look at it again from a purely logical perspective.



X = God the father is a person, with his own mind, intellect and will = 1

Y = God the SON is a person , with his own mind , intellect and will = 1

Z = God the Holy Spirit is a person, with his own mind, intellect and will = 1


Find W


The most plausible answer will be :

W = X + Y + Z

W = 1 + 1 + 1

W = 3


But according to the Trinitairan this answer is wrong.

It should actually be



W = X X Y X Z

W = 1 x 1 x 1

W = 1


How they arrived at this answer is not only incomprehensible, it is also the bedrock of confusion in many churches today.

plaetton:

The Nicean Creed is here for everyone to see. Is it not a guideline, no,a decree of what christians were or are expected to believe?
Does the Nicean creed not establish the arcicles of christain faith?

Like Mr Anony said, no, it does not? I will go further to say that it only attempts to articulate our faith. It's not just "things" that we Christians believe, we believe in a Person. That means that we trust, count on, depend on and lay hold upon a Person. That is our protestation. That whatever we may be wrong about or not understand well, we are utterly satisfied that He is enough for us.

The effort of our intelligence is to comprehend Him, to apprehend and be apprehended by Him. And considering that it is God of Whom we speak, the vastness of Him cannot be fully and finally caught in any creed. The basis or foundation may be, but not the fullness.

You could say that in summary I have said that we do not have articles of faith. We have an object of Faith and His name is Jesus Christ.

Ihedinobi:

Like Mr Anony said, no, it does not? I will go further to say that it only attempts to articulate our faith. It's not just "things" that we Christians believe, we believe in a Person. That means that we trust, count on, depend on and lay hold upon a Person. That is our protestation. That whatever we may be wrong about or not understand well, we are utterly satisfied that He is enough for us.

The effort of our intelligence is to comprehend Him, to apprehend and be apprehended by Him. And considering that it is God of Whom we speak, the vastness of Him cannot be fully and finally caught in any creed. The basis or foundation may be, but not the fullness.

You could say that in summary I have said that we do not have articles of faith. We have an object of Faith and His name is Jesus Christ.

Word!

Some of us when challenged will resort to their joker card which depicts God as totally incomprehensible and almost a mysterious mystery.

However God is not ALLAH , and it is his perfect will to reveal himself to his children , hence the coming of Christ Jesus who was the express image of his person to show us what the father is really like.

Rememberer the saying like father like Son.

Yet we are told to accept the Trinity dogma by faith . What faith ?? Faith by magic ,

Guys common , you can do better.

I am talking about the Nicean creed and its impact, and how its has shaped what christians beleive, and you are talking about what faith means to you. Off topic.

Mr_Anony:
Word!

I chuckle at how both of you ride on each other's pigtail.

plaetton: I am talking about the Nicean creed and its impact, and how its has shaped what christians beleive, and you are talking about what faith means to you. Off topic.

The Nicean creed is hinged on a 3-god God, without this concept it all falls apart.