take dat: Tinubu is the reason why GEJ has Alams and OBJ as godfathers.Tinubu is the reason why all the graft cases being prosecuted by EFCC are PDP's. Tinubu is the reason why Ibori,Alams,Kalu Bode George are thieves.Tinubu is the reason why there are no good roads in your statemHe is the reason why GEJ has all subsidy thieves are his associate. Fix the problems of your state and let the people of SW deal with their problems cos they know better than you do.

What point were you trying to make ?

I've met different types of people here and the ones that still amuse me most are those who just choose to insult and attack others for no just reason. There's a discussion on ground, your opinion is asked(not a must you answer), if you have no constructive sensible thing to say, why not just shut the hell up and find your way out I don't mean to insult anyone, this is just a trend that baffles me.

berem: of course he is the one! That's the truth! He also didn't fail to honour Funsho williams by renaming Western Avenue after him.what a crooked tadpole!

and who told u dis self-styled fact - your wish abi?

Billyonaire: Your writing proves that you can read and write. But anyone who knows how to read but fails to read is as good as an illiterate! I made it clear that my assertions are not politically motivated and are not in allegiance to or in sympathy of any political affiliations, yet you rush in with your emotions without reading my prior facts to bark at me with political undertone. I implore you to put your emotions aside and view my writings with intelligence. I have more stakes in Lagos than you will ever have, so when you want to talk about SW and who is not a Lagosian take into consideration that I am a de-tribalized fellow today, but I cant promise I will stay so tomorrow. If you come to me with tribal sentiments I will render you a persona-non-grata on Nairaland. Tinubu is hated because he feeds fat from funds that he uses his fronts and surrogates to extract from every Lagosian, his fronts are LCC, AlphaBeta, Hitech, etc. He also seizes waterfronts and beaches from the owners and pursues the ordinary people away and uses them for his personal gains, it is why he is hated. These have nothing to do with politics but greed of the self-styled Lion of Bourdillon and Grand Fraud of Lagos

You claim he is hated yet just a year and a half ago people voted overwhelmingly for his party that the swept PDP controlled states. If by that you mean hate then I'll like to be hated in such way cos most places where CAN won they had it at their subconscious mind that he is the leader of AC N.
Pls stop this useless lie that your angst against Tinubu is not borne out of party affiliation cos in the thread of GEJ attending Oke's rally you identified yourself as PDP

I learned a long time ago that the most dangerous type of information is "beer parlour and peppersoup" gist. Sadly a lot of the comments here are hearsay and have been rubbished years ago. e.g. For those who want to verify the ownership of LCC etc, please go and search for video/transcript of the gubernatorial debate between Fashola and Dosunmu, where Dosunmu made a campaign promise to scrap LCC if he won the Lagos state election. Fashola promptly reminded him (to loud applause) that the PDP (specifically OBJ) are also core signatories to the LCC transaction - so its not clear how Tinubu could be said to own the same company. I'm open to hear superior evidence to the contrary. I dont know Tinubu personally but i know that Lagos is one of the most strategically important states to the PDP and thinking objectively - if Tinubu was so corrupt, wouldnt the PDP have used all the intelligence power they possess to expose and ridicule him by now?

From the few facts i know about Tinubu, he came from humble beginnings and was adopted by a Lagos family. Sponsored to study in the States and worked in US audit firms before joining Exxon Mobil in Lagos and eventually became Group Treasurer; a big deal for a Nigerian to achieve back then. I also remember he was very vocal with NADECO during June 12 and eventually went on self exile when Abacha wanted to exterminate him. Today he has made Nigerian politics interesting again by creating a formidable opposition party. The first of its kind in decades. I know from some of my mentors who worked directly with him at Mobil that he has always been a radical, (a smart, likeable area boy in a suit, was how one colleague desribed him). But Lagos (aka Jungle City) and the South West need radical leadership like this for real transformation, not PHD holders who blow hot air and do nothing. After my long story above..i have to ask myself the same question @OP asked...why do people hate such a man so much. Who knows...snowball effect of beer parlour gist maybe?

ndu_chucks: It is time to speak: Look at the madness going on in Yoruba land. Slowpoke, nincompoop, people without family background causing problem because of money, ill gotten wealth. If a town or settlement is at peace, the bastard there is yet to grow up. If you are a bastard, there is nothing you can do to cover up with money. Where is your father’s compound? A bastard pretending to be a patriot. We are proud of our heritage because we have goodly heritage. There are those who call themselves nobles who are under the influence of Jezebel. Until they drink kainkain, they cannot function. They pretend to be larger than life.........Pastor Tunde Bakare on Tinubu



Other people hate him because of his reputation of being a 419er in the US before he was "rehabilitated". Others still hate him because of his anti Awolowo stance.

But ndu_chucks believes that the man is a genius who took advantage of opportunites before him to enrich himself. The Yorubas can do better than picking Tinubu as their leader, in my opinion.

@ ndu_chuks choosen leader or no choosen leader ao advise u move to iboland to do that. as regards tunde bakare`s speech are u just knowin that d man na wounded dog lookin for whom to bite. Tinubu is a core politician tunde baka is a core pastor dont u spot differnce. d fact is dat u cant be a politician and be 30% clean politics is not played d way bakare tot it to be. only if u understand wat i mean!
Tinubu is a father in Nigeria politics comfirmed

ndu_chucks: It is time to speak: Look at the madness going on in Yoruba land. Slowpoke, nincompoop, people without family background causing problem because of money, ill gotten wealth. If a town or settlement is at peace, the bastard there is yet to grow up. If you are a bastard, there is nothing you can do to cover up with money. Where is your father’s compound? A bastard pretending to be a patriot. We are proud of our heritage because we have goodly heritage. There are those who call themselves nobles who are under the influence of Jezebel. Until they drink kainkain, they cannot function. They pretend to be larger than life.........Pastor Tunde Bakare on Tinubu



Other people hate him because of his reputation of being a 419er in the US before he was "rehabilitated". Others still hate him because of his anti Awolowo stance.

But ndu_chucks believes that the man is a genius who took advantage of opportunites before him to enrich himself. The Yorubas can do better than picking Tinubu as their leader, in my opinion.

@ ndu_chuks choosen leader or no choosen leader ao advise u move to iboland to do that. as regards tunde bakare`s speech are u just knowin that d man na wounded dog lookin for whom to bite. Tinubu is a core politician tunde baka is a core pastor dont u spot differnce. d fact is dat u cant be a politician and be 30% clean politics is not played d way bakare tot it to be. only if u understand wat i mean!
Tinubu is a father in Nigeria politics comfirmed

ndu_chucks: It is time to speak: Look at the madness going on in Yoruba land. Slowpoke, nincompoop, people without family background causing problem because of money, ill gotten wealth. If a town or settlement is at peace, the bastard there is yet to grow up. If you are a bastard, there is nothing you can do to cover up with money. Where is your father’s compound? A bastard pretending to be a patriot. We are proud of our heritage because we have goodly heritage. There are those who call themselves nobles who are under the influence of Jezebel. Until they drink kainkain, they cannot function. They pretend to be larger than life.........Pastor Tunde Bakare on Tinubu



Other people hate him because of his reputation of being a 419er in the US before he was "rehabilitated". Others still hate him because of his anti Awolowo stance.

But ndu_chucks believes that the man is a genius who took advantage of opportunites before him to enrich himself. The Yorubas can do better than picking Tinubu as their leader, in my opinion.

@ ndu_chuks choosen leader or no choosen leader ao advise u move to iboland to do that. as regards tunde bakare`s speech are u just knowin that d man na wounded dog lookin for whom to bite. Tinubu is a core politician tunde baka is a core pastor dont u spot differnce. d fact is dat u cant be a politician and be 30% clean politics is not played d way bakare tot it to be. only if u understand wat i mean!
Tinubu is a father in Nigeria politics comfirmed

ndu_chucks: It is time to speak: Look at the madness going on in Yoruba land. Slowpoke, nincompoop, people without family background causing problem because of money, ill gotten wealth. If a town or settlement is at peace, the bastard there is yet to grow up. If you are a bastard, there is nothing you can do to cover up with money. Where is your father’s compound? A bastard pretending to be a patriot. We are proud of our heritage because we have goodly heritage. There are those who call themselves nobles who are under the influence of Jezebel. Until they drink kainkain, they cannot function. They pretend to be larger than life.........Pastor Tunde Bakare on Tinubu



Other people hate him because of his reputation of being a 419er in the US before he was "rehabilitated". Others still hate him because of his anti Awolowo stance.

But ndu_chucks believes that the man is a genius who took advantage of opportunites before him to enrich himself. The Yorubas can do better than picking Tinubu as their leader, in my opinion.

@ ndu_chuks choosen leader or no choosen leader ao advise u move to iboland to do that. as regards tunde bakare`s speech are u just knowin that d man na wounded dog lookin for whom to bite. Tinubu is a core politician tunde baka is a core pastor dont u spot differnce. d fact is dat u cant be a politician and be 30% clean politics is not played d way bakare tot it to be. only if u understand wat i mean!
Tinubu is a father in Nigeria politics comfirmed

take dat: You claim he is hated yet just a year and a half ago people voted overwhelmingly for his party that the swept PDP controlled states. If by that you mean hate then I'll like to be hated in such way cos most places where CAN won they had it at their subconscious mind that he is the leader of AC N.
Pls stop this useless lie that your angst against Tinubu is not borne out of party affiliation cos in the thread of GEJ attending Oke's rally you identified yourself as PDP

You have a valid point there . As I have stated severally in this thread, the man's opponents ( political and business ) , are the ones that criticize him in the open ,and they are the propagators of " many people hate Tinubu ", while in the secret they adore him greatly and admire his guts and sagacity . Meanwhile, the average people ( formally educated ) with brains of chicken , majority of them present in this thread and forum, generally, are the ones who joined his opponent in the 'hate circle' , just because they feel the man has achieved more greater things than them , whereas he does not posses worthless higher paper certificates which they believe is the one way ticket to success in life .

take dat: You claim he is hated yet just a year and a half ago people voted overwhelmingly for his party that the swept PDP controlled states. If by that you mean hate then I'll like to be hated in such way cos most places where CAN won they had it at their subconscious mind that he is the leader of AC N.
Pls stop this useless lie that your angst against Tinubu is not borne out of party affiliation cos in the thread of GEJ attending Oke's rally you identified yourself as PDP

You are advertising your weaknesses. If this thread was about Political Affiliations and Manifesto, I should have used my left hand to type facts to prove my mettle, unlike you, who, armed with 100% of your 3% IQ, decide to parade your ignorance in a show of shame. Again, the OP sought to know in sincerity why Tinubu is hated, I volunteered to bare it open so that Tinubu and his friends can read my lines and know why he is hated, may be, just may be, he will loosen his grip on the people's interest, survival sources and economic lifebuoys and let them live freely in this piece of Land created by the cosmic and named Lagos by the colonialists. Steer clear political brouhaha and proof to me and the OP that Tinubu is not hated, instead of running around like a little political rabbit trying to safe a political cat. You cant save Tinunbu from the hate of the people and the online activists, he needs to apologize to them and turn a new leaf. This is what is expected of the man called Tinubu, the Lion of Bourdillon, the parasite of the people.

Billyonaire: You are advertising your weaknesses. If this thread was about Political Affiliations and Manifesto, I should have used my left hand to type facts to prove my mettle, unlike you, who, armed with 100% of your 3% IQ, decide to parade your ignorance in a show of shame. Again, the OP sought to know in sincerity why Tinubu is hated, I volunteered to bare it open so that Tinubu and his friends can read my lines and know why he is hated, may be, just may be, he will loosen his grip on the people's interest, survival sources and economic lifebuoys and let them live freely in this piece of Land created by the cosmic and named Lagos by the colonialists. Steer clear political brouhaha and proof to me and the OP that Tinubu is not hated, instead of running around like a little political rabbit trying to safe a political cat. You cant save Tinunbu from the hate of the people and the online activists, he needs to apologize to them and turn a new leaf. This is what is expected of the man called Tinubu, the Lion of Bourdillon, the parasite of the people.

Eeya advocate of the masses who live on crumbs of PDP by trolling the internet .Am sorry I outed you as a PDP apologist. This hate of Tinubu will lead you to early grave.

Though I cant remember any interview granted by HID AWOLOWO where she expressly stated her hatred for TINUBU, but I know she is anti-Tinubu's party woman-she and her family.
The reason for this is best known to her and the family and besides, they have right to associate or dissociate themselves with/from any political camp. But I sense envy(my opinion).
As for Bakare, he held Tinubu for his collosal loss of being a deputy president of a nation called NIGERIA, believing that it was he that sold out South-West to GEJ during the last general election. The question is, did Tinubu (openly) campaigned for gej? Did he charmed the Yoruba states, except Osun to vote gej? How did he sold out Yoruba nation to gej?
Ganiu Oyesola 'Gani Fawehinmi' is a man that can make case out of any given stance. He made his popularity from this, because it was his calling. He made his personality known at the inception of the 1999 democratic rule, through that Tinubu forgery case, after series of humiliation and frustration from military junta. He bowed out of the case because of the incessant Lagosian song 'GANI LEAVE OUR MAN (tinubu) ALONE.'
Now the man-TINUBU, he is a man from the scratch, without any paternal or maternal affiliated political dynasty. He emerged from total oblivion into political limelight as a result of his SINGLE decision not to agree with his other SOUTH WEST AD governors to support OBASANJO for his second term. His doggedness and undaunted political spirit earned him the present political leadership status. His rise to the zenith beats all imagination of his political adversaries and allies, some were able to conceal it, some could it, hence, hatred, enmity, castigation, pull-him down talks etc.
Take it or leave it, Tinubu is a leader for some and his disciples are looking up to him for all what they think can come to them through him by God.
He has made Governors, Senators, Reps, LG Chairmen etc. God with him, he is the OPPOSITION LEADER OF NIGERIA.

Another Tinubu hate thread full of gossiping market women. Carry on, I'm enjoying the comedy......

Sayfat: Though I cant remember any interview granted by HID AWOLOWO where she expressly stated her hatred for TINUBU, but I know she is anti-Tinubu's party woman-she and her family.
The reason for this is best known to her and the family and besides, they have right to associate or dissociate themselves with/from any political camp. But I sense envy(my opinion).
As for Bakare, he held Tinubu for his collosal loss of being a deputy president of a nation called NIGERIA, believing that it was he that sold out South-West to GEJ during the last general election. The question is, did Tinubu (openly) campaigned for gej? Did he charmed the Yoruba states, except Osun to vote gej? How did he sold out Yoruba nation to gej?
Ganiu Oyesola 'Gani Fawehinmi' is a man that can make case out of any given stance. He made his popularity from this, because it was his calling. He made his personality known at the inception of the 1999 democratic rule, through that Tinubu forgery case, after series of humiliation and frustration from military junta. He bowed out of the case because of the incessant Lagosian song 'GANI LEAVE OUR MAN (tinubu) ALONE.'
Now the man-TINUBU, he is a man from the scratch, without any paternal or maternal affiliated political dynasty. He emerged from total oblivion into political limelight as a result of his SINGLE decision not to agree with his other SOUTH WEST AD governors to support OBASANJO for his second term. His doggedness and undaunted political spirit earned him the present political leadership status. His rise to the zenith beats all imagination of his political adversaries and allies, some were able to conceal it, some could it, hence, hatred, enmity, castigation, pull-him down talks etc.
Take it or leave it, Tinubu is a leader for some and his disciples are looking up to him for all what they think can come to them through him by God.
He has made Governors, Senators, Reps, LG Chairmen etc. God with him, he is the OPPOSITION LEADER OF NIGERIA.

Thanks greatly , I couldn't have said it better .

Probably because he's slightly over rated,he obviously talks the talk but they don't measure up with some of his actions.
He's got mastery of the strategic term: positioning.
I,sometimes wonder why a better, articulate and coherent man isn't in his position.
SW would have been better off with someone like Olu falae.

Cultured:

What point were you trying to make ?

Since the op feels that hi being a low life is due to Tinubu's existence. Am just being sarcastic

take dat: Eeya advocate of the masses who live on crumbs of PDP by trolling the internet .Am sorry I outed you as a PDP apologist. This hate of Tinubu will lead you to early grave.

You know better than this. Do not allow inherent DNA love and tribal affiliations erode your God-given talent to discern right from wrong. I hold the floor neither for PDP my party nor home state of birth today, neither am I chastising ACN, a party you are sympathizer of nor SW, a region you can die for. I stay within the confine of this thread and the desire of the OP to explain my Mr. Tinubu is hated, and I made it very very clear. It is your duty to prove to the OP and my humble self as well as the readers that Tinubu is not hated and not to start a political debate you can not win. You keep emphasizing Tinubu's wealth as if he can sleep on more than one bed at a time or eat more than 10 balls of amala at a time. His money means nothing to me, not to you and not to nobody here. So I implore you to stay within the thread and prove to us that Tinubu is not hated. Tinubu needs to loosen his grip on the people's means of survival. It is understandable that he is not very lettered in academia, so his knowledge of wealth acquisition borders not on insider trading at Wall street but on Motor parks thuggery, land seizures, revenue collections, wholesale forgery etc. But he is rich now, let him crave for the love of the people on the street, so the online activists can stop their show of hate on him. His case is not beyond redemption, at least, not yet.

jas_o: That criticism on amiable and most respected politician in all ramifications as far as this country is concern is baseless and orchestrated by enemy of progress. This man has done tremendously well in liberating Nigerians. He was the first to break monopoly of NEPA, he brought back efficient tax with its objective materialize, he brought back free education in the SW, he introduce free medical health to the pregnant, he introduced free glasses etc. All this are basic need Nigerians are yelling for and this is what can bring developmental that will see Nigeria realizing her vision 2020. Instead of these set of nincompoops queue behind him they are busy with denigration; this is absolute madness.
The progress we are recording in SW can be directly attributed to him. Recently one of our senator from eastern part of the country in the name of Chukwumerije paid a visit to Osun and to what he found amazing and a wakeup call to other governors pointed it out that the efforts of Aregbesola in education sector of the state should be adopted and replicates all over the country, he ask all governor from other parties to drop egotism and embrace good governance, having known the efforts of Tinubu in making sure that Osun people voice speaks through the votes by eliminating those who have caged and impoverishing there people. I can cant it on and on but leave the rest for logical people to comment.
When his blessesed memory Gani fawehimin contested for presidency he could not garner 20,000 votes and this was the work of these criminals forcefully placing themselves on us but now we see somebody who’s saying let people choose who to govern them and some dreaded brains pickup hanger and started tagging him names. The man cannot be kill like those in the past, he’s a treat to critics father’s looter, they have no hidden place again they will end up in jail and we’re almost there.

. Dude,will you shut the Bleep up? What free education are you talking about? Go to LASU and see if Lagosians can afford the tuition fees. Efficient health system must be in your dreams. Why don't you take a trip to Lagos and see the "development" he has made out of Lagos. Better yet,go to YouTube and watch Rick Ross's "Hold me Back" video.

Tinubu the Emperor is responsible for the wasted years of Justice Ayo Salami in the Judiciary.

Billyonaire: You know better than this. Do not allow inherent DNA love and tribal affiliations erode your God-given talent to discern right from wrong. I hold the floor neither for PDP my party nor home state of birth today, neither am I chastising ACN, a party you are sympathizer of nor SW, a region you can die for. I stay within the confine of this thread and the desire of the OP to explain my Mr. Tinubu is hated, and I made it very very clear. It is your duty to prove to the OP and my humble self as well as the readers that Tinubu is not hated and not to start a political debate you can not win. You keep emphasizing Tinubu's wealth as if he can sleep on more than one bed at a time or eat more than 10 balls of amala at a time. His money means nothing to me, not to you and not to nobody here. So I implore you to stay within the thread and prove to us that Tinubu is not hated. Tinubu needs to loosen his grip on the people's means of survival. It is understandable that he is not very lettered in academia, so his knowledge of wealth acquisition borders not on insider trading at Wall street but on Motor parks thuggery, land seizures, revenue collections, wholesale forgery etc. But he is rich now, let him crave for the love of the people on the street, so the online activists can stop their show of hate on him. His case is not beyond redemption, at least, not yet.

Sorry, one do not need a soothsayer to know that your hatred for Tinubu ,as you have directly and indirectly exhibited so far in this thread ,is as a result of your political affiliation to PDP.

Once more, I'm not Tinubu's fan, neither do I belong to his political party , but I always like to associate myself with truth .

take dat: Since the op feels that hi being a low life is due to Tinubu's existence. Am just being sarcastic

I get the drift .

Billyonaire: You know better than this. Do not allow inherent DNA love and tribal affiliations erode your God-given talent to discern right from wrong. I hold the floor neither for PDP my party nor home state of birth today, neither am I chastising ACN, a party you are sympathizer of nor SW, a region you can die for. I stay within the confine of this thread and the desire of the OP to explain my Mr. Tinubu is hated, and I made it very very clear. It is your duty to prove to the OP and my humble self as well as the readers that Tinubu is not hated and not to start a political debate you can not win. You keep emphasizing Tinubu's wealth as if he can sleep on more than one bed at a time or eat more than 10 balls of amala at a time. His money means nothing to me, not to you and not to nobody here. So I implore you to stay within the thread and prove to us that Tinubu is not hated. Tinubu needs to loosen his grip on the people's means of survival. It is understandable that he is not very lettered in academia, so his knowledge of wealth acquisition borders not on insider trading at Wall street but on Motor parks thuggery, land seizures, revenue collections, wholesale forgery etc. But he is rich now, let him crave for the love of the people on the street, so the online activists can stop their show of hate on him. His case is not beyond redemption, at least, not yet.

This has nothing to do with sentiments and I am no supporter of any political party am only trying to assert that with all the obvious little failings of Tinubu, he is more credible than majority of PDP chieftains and so if you believe that with all the atrocities of OBJ,Alams and co they are not hated then why Tinubu that as at this moment has a clean slate would be the most hated politician.
You that is quick to defend all GEJ's failings don't have a right to display your bitterness on someone esle

Cultured:
Sorry, one do not need a soothsayer to know that your hatred for Tinubu ,as you have directly and indirectly exhibited so far in this thread ,is as a result of your political affiliation to PDP. Once more, I'm not Tinubu's fan, neither do I belong to his political party , but I always like to associate myself with truth .

Can you tell Nairalanders why Tinubu is then hated online as the OP opined or prove to us that he is not hated ? You seem to dance Azonto on the wrong beats. The Title of this thread is simple to understand.

PDP sponsored PROPANGADA !!!. It comes in different versions. EXPECT UPDATES !!!

it is sold free of charge for most cheap nigerians.

take dat: This has nothing to do with sentiments and I am no supporter of any political party am only trying to assert that with all the obvious little failings of Tinubu, he is more credible than majority of PDP chieftains and so if you believe that with all the atrocities of OBJ,Alams and co they are not hated then why Tinubu that as at this moment has a clean slate would be the most hated politician.
You that is quick to defend all GEJ's failings don't have a right to display your bitterness on someone esle

Sometimes I feel sad to know that many people purposely shy away from the title of a thread, is it that you do not understand the desire of the OP ? Why do People hate Tinubu ? And you start comparisons.

They can all hate him but he is in charge of Lagos State and that's why few progress is made.

Lagos is far better compared to some other states

Billyonaire: Can you tell Nairalanders why Tinubu is then hated online as the OP opined or prove to us that he is not hated ? You seem to dance Azonto on the wrong beats. The Title of this thread is simple to understand.

Can you tell Nairalanders why if you search on google the most cursed president it replies GEJ?If you believe that people who voted GEJ just a year and a half are the ones cursing him then I'll have no problem with Tinubu whose party won over 5 states from PDP is most hated.

Billyonaire: Can you tell Nairalanders why Tinubu is then hated online as the OP opined or prove to us that he is not hated ? You seem to dance Azonto on the wrong beats. The Title of this thread is simple to understand.

Can you tell Nairalanders why if you search on google the most cursed president it replies GEJ?If you believe that people who voted GEJ just a year and a half are cursing him then I'll have no problem with Tinubu whose party won over 5 states from PDP is most hated.

Billyonaire: Can you tell Nairalanders why Tinubu is then hated online as the OP opined or prove to us that he is not hated ? You seem to dance Azonto on the wrong beats. The Title of this thread is simple to understand.

Tinubu is only being hated by PDP paid apologist like you and your ilks. Meanwhile, I need no soothsayer to tell me that the originator of this thread is one of the members in your platoon .

afrikanns:


@ ndu_chuks choosen leader or no choosen leader ao advise u move to iboland to do that. as regards tunde bakare`s speech are u just knowin that d man na wounded dog lookin for whom to bite. Tinubu is a core politician tunde baka is a core pastor dont u spot differnce. d fact is dat u cant be a politician and be 30% clean politics is not played d way bakare tot it to be. only if u understand wat i mean!
Tinubu is a father in Nigeria politics comfirmed

Learn how to use a computer, dummy.

he is a thief! what else