@4Him,

I just have to come in and say a few things following the way you are using the scriptures unscripturally here. I often wonder how people who have done nothing for the kingdom, nor given up so much for the kingdom have the audacity to condemn those who through by reason of fellowship and walk with God have broght growth to His Kingdom. Now to address some of the things you mentioned.

that is what you get when "churches" end up as business empires - - the den of thieves.

Jesus said He was about the "business of His Father." So church business is the Father's business.

puhleeese give me a break. They robbed banks . . . is that part of God's house too?

Whose money was stolen? In whose hands do you think the money stand a better chance of being used for the gospel - the Church or those armed robbers?

simple logic . . . when did banks become part of a church?
Did Christ patronise money changers in the temple or drove them out with whips? not logic dear . . . read your bible.

I will suggest you read your Bible too Sir. You can't use an isolated incident that teaches something else to condemn the use of money in churches. Have you forgotten Jesus sat by tand observed he temple treasury when He taught us about the widow's mite? Why didn't He drive them away then? The Ark of the Covenant, guess what it is made up of? When Jesus commanded that they who preach the gospel must be sustained through the Gospel, how do you think He intended to achieved that?

This is becoming Bishop worship. Where in the bible did the apostles sit down building business empires to make money? Was it when Paul was being shipwrecked on the way to Jerusalem or when Stephen was being stoned or with Philip being transported to meet the Ethopian eunuch? May God have mercy.

My question to you: How many times have you being shipwrecked and stoned for the sake of Christ? Is spirituality measured by the level of persecution or degree of poverty? Have you not read that Apostles were made like spectacles to the whole world? Wasn't Jesus made poor so we could become rich? Of what benefit is your poverty to God?

While Christ enjoins us to build up treasures in heaven "Bishop" is busy building his own canaanland on earth . . . when the robbers come for their share you all start calling fire and brimstone.

And how do you build up treasures in heaven? By swearing allegiance to poverty on earth? Your reward in heaven is based on so many things include your labour of love. While I have never being a member of Oyedepo's Church, I know what he has built there is purely borne out of love to meet a gaping need in the society. Tell me, when Jesus said we should occupy till He comes, are you suggesting He wanted us to be occupied with poverty?

I don't support robbery but i wont condone the misuse of Christ's name as a tool for personal aggrandisment either which is what canaanland symbolises.

Why don't you list the number of people your life as a whole has benefitted and see if your list will come up to 1/1000th. Self-centered people don't do what he does.

Back to my main point: why is a church now so rich? Why is a bank situated in a church? In the begining it was not so. Christ flogged money changers out of the premises of the temple accusing them of turning a house of prayer into a den of thieves . . . are we not witnessing the same today?

A church will be rich if they follow God's word. God's word brings prosperity and wholeness to the spirit, soul and body. Jesus' promise is that we will receive now in this lifetime, more of what we give up for Him, and in the world to come, eternal life.

Our churches have become schools, restaurants, banks and miracle houses. Is this what the saviour meant when He said we shld lay NOT for ourselves treasures on earth where moth and rust do corrupt?

If you grew up in naija, I'd like you to tell us what you think the fate of naija's educational system would have been withou the input of the various mission schools. I dare say 70% of the people here attended one missionary school or the other, so I am left wondering what your point is. As for the Bank, it is only a fool who minimises the importance of money in our world. Even Jesus said we should make friends with money, and haven't you read that the silver and gold are His?

If you'd like a debate, I'll give you one. But just so as to be sure that I am not in a debate with a hypocrite, kindly do what Jesus said literarily concerning giving ALL you have and then follow Him. That way I will know I am in a debate with someone who not only believes in poverty, but has sworn allegiance to it.

Oga Tayo i bow sir . . . thou knowest who i am. But much respect . . . let us go through your riposte.

Tayo-D:

@4Him,

I just have to come in and say a few things following the way you are using the scriptures unscripturally here. I often wonder how people who have done nothing for the kingdom, nor given up so much for the kingdom have the audacity to condemn those who through by reason of fellowship and walk with God have broght growth to His Kingdom. Now to address some of the things you mentioned.

Oga i could not type a response for a good 3 mins . . . i rolled off my bed in laughter.
Just a question sir . . . in what way does a church using tithes and "offerings" to build a university that is way out of reach of 80% of the congregation part of "bringing growth to His kingdomm"?

Tayo-D:

Jesus said He was about the "business of His Father." So church business is the Father's business.

With all due respect sir . . . Jesus Christ was 12yrs old when He made this statement . . . he had neither a church no was he "bishop". Clearly when He talked of His "Father's business" He was not talking of building a giant religious complex but the "business" of salvation on the cross.
This is comparing apples with oranges.

Tayo-D:

Whose money was stolen? In whose hands do you think the money stand a better chance of being used for the gospel - the Church or those armed robbers?

Frankly neither. While the church is rich majority of the people (those the bible identifies as the real church) are poor.
How has the church used all the money for the gospel? By building schools (for the rich only), restaurants and purchasing private jets? If that is the measure of how the gospel is to be preached one wonders how the apostles managed behind prison walls and on donkeys.

Tayo-D:

I will suggest you read your Bible too Sir. You can't use an isolated incident that teaches something else to condemn the use of money in churches. Have you forgotten Jesus sat by and observed the temple treasury when He taught us about the widow's mite? Why didn't He drive them away then?

you are equally guilty of the very charge you lay against me. What Christ was observing in that verse was the giving of offerings to the Lord in the temple. He brought up a very valuable lesson . . . the emphasis is not on how much you have (and can give) but the state of ur heart.
Today the widow wont even be allowed anywhere near Canaanland . . . remember "their God is not a poor God"

lets bear in mind that we can help God or decide for him in judgement

Tayo-D:

When Jesus commanded that they who preach the gospel must be sustained through the Gospel, how do you think He intended to achieved that?

Of course by tithes and offerings . . . certainly Christ was not expecting them to force the people to pay taxes and levies (also known as tithes and offerings) to build schools for the rich.
Imagine if Christ had asked all those he healed and delivered to bring their tithes and offerings . . . imagine if Christ had asked Zaccheus to pay his tithes to Him . . . He would not have needed to borrow a colt . . . he would have ridden to Jerusalem in a convoy of the finest Horses of Rome.

Tayo-D:

My question to you: How many times have you being shipwrecked and stoned for the sake of Christ? Is spirituality measured by the level of persecution or degree of poverty? Have you not read that Apostles were made like spectacles to the whole world? Wasn't Jesus made poor so we could become rich? Of what benefit is your poverty to God?

Spirituality is not measured by the level of persecution, church "growth" is not measured by the number of banks on its premises either.
I may not have been shipwrecked before but i refuse to be a partaker of the extortion that goes on today in the name of Christ.
The apostles were made spectacles to the whole world NOT for how much was in their bank accounts or how grand their churches were (they even hd to borrow private homes to preach) or the size of their horses and ships but for the fearlessness with which they shared the word of Christ and their willingness to die for their faith . . . how many of our church leaders can boast of same today?

Tayo-D:

While I have never being a member of Oyedepo's Church, I know what he has built there is purely borne out of love to meet a gaping need in the society.

How has he fulfilled this need? Igbinedion, Atiku, Obj also have private schools . . . were they also borne out of love to meet a gaping need in society?
And how many members of Winners chapel can afford to attend CU?

Tayo-D:

Tell me, when Jesus said we should occupy till He comes, are you suggesting He wanted us to be occupied with poverty?

No, he didnt expect us to make riches the prime focus of our lives either. I ask a simple question again oga, how did brother Paul occupy till he died? By building Jerusalemland?

Tayo-D:

Why don't you list the number of people your life as a whole has benefitted and see if your list will come up to 1/1000th. Self-centered people don't do what he does.

By this analogy we can safely assume that apostle Peter, brother Paul, James, Stephen, the sons of Zebedee e.t.c. were all self-centered people . . . not even a school, restaurant or bank for the poor Jews? such a shame.

Tayo-D:

A church will be rich if they follow God's word.

Jesus had to borrow a colt to ride to Jerusalem . . . obviously He was not following God's word.

Tayo-D:

God's word brings prosperity and wholeness to the spirit, soul and body. Jesus' promise is that we will receive now in this lifetime, more of what we give up for Him, and in the world to come, eternal life.

Is "prosperity" measured only in how fat our accounts are? Joseph was a prosperous man in prison . . . i doubt if he even owned the shirt on his back.

Tayo-D:

If you grew up in naija, I'd like you to tell us what you think the fate of naija's educational system would have been withou the input of the various mission schools. I dare say 70% of the people here attended one missionary school or the other, so I am left wondering what your point is.

pls sir kindly give me the most current school fees for CU and compare that to those of the mission schools. Can we also agree that Igbinedion university is a mission school too?

Tayo-D:

As for the Bank, it is only a fool who minimises the importance of money in our world. Even Jesus said we should make friends with money, and haven't you read that the silver and gold are His?

    Oga . . . are you sure brother Peter came across this verse at all? Why then did he say "silver and gold have i none . . ."?

Tayo-D:

If you'd like a debate, I'll give you one. But just so as to be sure that I am not in a debate with a hypocrite, kindly do what Jesus said literarily concerning giving ALL you have and then follow Him. That way I will know I am in a debate with someone who not only believes in poverty, but has sworn allegiance to it.

I wont give all my salary so someone else can build a school that i wont be able to afford. It doesnt make economic sense.

@4Him,

Oga Tayo i bow sir . . . thou knowest who i am. But much respect . . . let us go through your riposte.

Is this Davidylan? Dem don ban you again? Wetin happen this time? By the way, I read your article and some comments about Creflo Dolar, and I can't but disagree with you. You argue from one perspective without looking at the entire picture. If this is indeed Davidylan, I'll probably try and respond to your article with an email.

Oga i could not type a response for a good 3 mins . . . i rolled off my bed in laughter. Just a question sir . . . in what way does a church using tithes and "offerings" to build a university that is way out of reach of 80% of the congregation part of "bringing growth to His kingdomm"?

Perhaps you should go there yourself and see what the difference is between the Covenant University and others. One of my wife's cousin attends the school even though I know no one in the entire extended family who attends Winners Chapel. The guy is a much different person because of that school. Young people are groomed, not only to earn a degree and start making a living, but the principles of Christ and imbimbed into them. This you cannot get in other schools. This is a school where the Word of Christ is the focus. Can you say the same about the others?

With all due respect sir . . . Jesus Christ was 12yrs old when He made this statement . . . he had neither a church no was he "bishop". Clearly when He talked of His "Father's business" He was not talking of building a giant religious complex but the "business" of salvation on the cross. This is comparing apples with oranges.

Have you found out how many people have been saved through the institutions you are so quick to condemn? Tell me, if only one person comes to the saving knowledge of the Lord through these institutions, would you wtill consider the investment worthwhile?

Frankly neither. While the church is rich majority of the people (those the bible identifies as the real church) are poor. How has the church used all the money for the gospel? By building schools (for the rich only), restaurants and purchasing private jets? If that is the measure of how the gospel is to be preached one wonders how the apostles managed behind prison walls and on donkeys.

Among Jesus' disciples, one always puts himself forward as an advocate for the poor. Guess who that was - Judas. The poor you will have always with you. There is nothing even Jesus can do about that. Private jets are tools for propagating the kingdom. Until last week, my pastors wife was away from church for about 3 weeks. She went around preaching and criss-crossing america in a car. She would have done more if she had a private jet. With a private jet, she'll have get to a meeting in one State, get a good nights sleep (instead of driving all night), then fly to her next meeting the following morning, well rested and alert. She does not have to wait to book flights that could waste her time and deprive her of much needed time to rest. Yes, private jets are tools just like your car. And by the way, Kenneth Copeland gave our church a new airplane last week. I understand that is the 18th aircraft he will be sowing. Doyou know by God's ecomonics, he will get a reward for every soul won through the use of that jet? Now that is laying up for yourslef treasures in heaven.

you are equally guilty of the very charge you lay against me. What Christ was observing in that verse was the giving of offerings to the Lord in the temple. He brought up a very valuable lesson . . . the emphasis is not on how much you have (and can give) but the state of your heart.
Today the widow wont even be allowed anywhere near Canaanland . . . remember "their God is not a poor God"

You miss my point altogether. I know what Jesus taught. I am only trying to call your attention to the fact that Jesus did not drive the people away, nor empty the treasury in that instant which is what you'd have us believe He does all the time. Please realise that Jesus' problem was not with money. If that were the case, then we have to start telling people that Jesus hates doves as well because the same passage tells us what Jesus did to those selling doves as well. Is your God poor? When you obey God's word, you will reap when you sow. Is it not the Bible that teaches that a man's harvest in life depends entirely on what he sows?

Tayo-D:

@4Him,
Is this Davidylan? Dem don ban you again? Wetin happen this time? By the way, I read your article and some comments about Creflo Dolar, and I can't but disagree with you. You argue from one perspective without looking at the entire picture. If this is indeed Davidylan, I'll probably try and respond to your article with an email.

Oga . . . i have decided to remain under the radar for a while . . . the disciples of allah just love getting my butt kicked.

Tayo-D:

Perhaps you should go there yourself and see what the difference is between the Covenant University and others. One of my wife's cousin attends the school even though I know no one in the entire extended family who attends Winners Chapel. The guy is a much different person because of that school. Young people are groomed, not only to earn a degree and start making a living, but the principles of Christ and imbimbed into them. This you cannot get in other schools. This is a school where the Word of Christ is the focus. Can you say the same about the others?

But there is a problem . . . only the rich can afford this. Kind of defeats the purpose in my oppinion.

Tayo-D:

Among Jesus' disciples, one always puts himself forward as an advocate for the poor. Guess who that was - Judas. The poor you will have always with you. There is nothing even Jesus can do about that.

Clearly that was an example of sarcasm in the bible . . . if Judas truly cared for the poor certainly he didnt need to steal to feed the poor. Besides for 30 pieces of silver he was willing to betray one with whom he had worked so closely with for 3yrs . . . was the 30 pieces of silver meant for the poor?

Tayo-D:

Private jets are tools for propagating the kingdom. Until last week, my pastors wife was away from church for about 3 weeks. She went around preaching and criss-crossing america in a car. She would have done more if she had a private jet. With a private jet, she'll have get to a meeting in one State, get a good nights sleep (instead of driving all night), then fly to her next meeting the following morning, well rested and alert. She does not have to wait to book flights that could waste her time and deprive her of much needed time to rest. Yes, private jets are tools just like your car. And by the way, Kenneth Copeland gave our church a new airplane last week. I understand that is the 18th aircraft he will be sowing. Doyou know by God's ecomonics, he will get a reward for every soul won through the use of that jet? Now that is laying up for yourslef treasures in heaven.

Oga . . . there were no jets 2000yrs ago . . . the works of those men who depended on ships, donkeys and their worn out sandals have remained the gold standard by which we live our lives today.
We have jets today but can we truly say that our spiritual lives are any better than 2000yrs ago? Atheism is on the rise, the church is lukewarm, we have heaped to ourselves teachers to fulfil the desires of our covetous hearts, we come to church no longer willing to listen to the gospel of salvation but merely to seek breakthroughs . . . yet we have jets!

Christ said true children of God would be persecuted for the gospel's sake, today our church leaders are "respected" all over the world. . . they are invited before heathens . . . and feast with the kings of the world. In the hands of this men the gospel of Christ has suffered ridicule . . . we have jets but our church members rarely read their bibles anymore . . . but we have more crime.

The gospel did not need jets in the days of Paul . . . and yet they preached the gospel to the uttermost parts of the world. Sometimes what we call "tools of the kingdom" are merely an euphemism for tools for our own convenience.

Tayo-D:

You miss my point altogether. I know what Jesus taught. I am only trying to call your attention to the fact that Jesus did not drive the people away, nor empty the treasury in that instant which is what you'd have us believe He does all the time. Please realise that Jesus' problem was not with money. If that were the case, then we have to start telling people that Jesus hates doves as well because the same passage tells us what Jesus did to those selling doves as well. Is your God poor? When you obey God's word, you will reap when you sow. Is it not the Bible that teaches that a man's harvest in life depends entirely on what he sows?

Jesus at no time was angry with people giving offerings, he was angry at those who chose to use the temple as a place for merchandise . . . instead of doves and money changers we now have schools and restaurants.

@4Him,

Of course by tithes and offerings . . . certainly Christ was not expecting them to force the people to pay taxes and levies (also known as tithes and offerings) to build schools for the rich.
Imagine if Christ had asked all those he healed and delivered to bring their tithes and offerings . . . imagine if Christ had asked Zaccheus to pay his tithes to Him . . . He would not have needed to borrow a colt . . . he would have ridden to Jerusalem in a convoy of the finest Horses of Rome.

You seem to have a problem with catering to the rich. My guy, riches are God's blessings. What you do not understand is that abundance of money provides a good tool for God's work. Christ rode on a donkey not becuase He could not ride on a horse, but so that scriptures can be fulfilled. In His death, he was buried in a rich man's tomb just so scriptures can be fulfilled. I wish any one can point me to a place in scripture where Jesus needs anything and He lacked the necessary resources to meeet such a need. Money is a resource. Please read your Bible and you'll find out that Jesus usually travels in a convoy -Mark 4:36 And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships. The purpose for all the boats is to do ministry. Whether, it is boats, planes, cars or rail, all available means must be used to make God's Word available and heard on every voice. Guess the common denominator of all these - money.

I may not have been shipwrecked before but i refuse to be a partaker of the extortion that goes on today in the name of Christ.

Why do you expect these people to be shipwrecked when you are yet to venture out into the sea? In a way, isn't there name and character being grounded ashore through these unsubstantiated calims of yours? You may call it extortion, but Jesu never asked the widow to take back her mite, neither did Elijah have the widow keep the flour for herself and her child.

The apostles were made spectacles to the whole world NOT for how much was in their bank accounts or how grand their churches were (they even hd to borrow private homes to preach) or the size of their horses and ships but for the fearlessness with which they shared the word of Christ and their willingness to die for their faith . . . how many of our church leaders can boast of same today?

You again miss the point. When Paul talked about the Apostles being made spectacles, he said the oppposite to those who have come to believe in Christ through them. You will find the same boldness in people today. Perhaps you should do a little research on the Bishop and someone like Idahosa so you'll know their testimony. You ridicule their successe now while failing to recognize their days of humble beginnings. Of them the scriptures testify "that their latter end shall be greatly increased".

How has he fulfilled this need? Igbinedion, Atiku, Obj also have private schools . . . were they also borne out of love to meet a gaping need in society?

Do the others run the school per Bible standards? That's the difference. Your argument is like telling me not to build a house because the Gospel has not profited from unbelievers who own houses.

And how many members of Winners chapel can afford to attend CU?

Get over it. The schoold is not meant for everyone just as the church (as in the denomination or local assembly) isn't meant for everyone. For all you know, God could spend that billions of dollars so He could save the life of one person. Billy Graham was the only one who got saved after a series of revival meetings. Guess how many God saved through that one man.

@4Him,

No, he didnt expect us to make riches the prime focus of our lives either. I ask a simple question again oga, how did brother Paul occupy till he died? By building Jerusalemland?

They occupied by following God's leading for their lives. Each person's role and work is different but the end produc is to preach Christ, and Him crucified. If you can prove that this is lacking in Canaanland, then you will win me over.

By this analogy we can safely assume that apostle Peter, brother Paul, James, Stephen, the sons of Zebedee e.t.c. were all self-centered people . . . not even a school, restaurant or bank for the poor Jews? such a shame.

The Apostles catered to the needs of the poor in their midst. Remeber Stephen and the other deacons? They did what they know best to do in order to continue the work of the ministry. It's no different today.

Jesus had to borrow a colt to ride to Jerusalem . . . obviously He was not following God's word.

The important thing is that Jesus had the resources to pursue His ministry whenver he needed to. If He were to live in our day and the Bible had prophesied that He would enter New York in a limousine, He would have had that limousine one way or the other, even if He has to go rent from Enterprise !

Men, I'll continue gist later. Madam calleth.

e be like say na some of una plan that robbery sef!

i wonder myself.

@4Him and co. the bible you are trying to use against bishop oyedepo says the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life.

the problem i have with people like you is the slow poison religion [i][/i] people like you have.

you guys seem to be in love with wickedness and poverty. your kind of religion finds hating successful people easy. i think your God wont like you because that spirit would not have come from Him if He is the real God. Joseph got blessed by God your kind of people hated on him. God blesses whoever He wants to bless not according your mind. the bible you carry if you have hated the word prosperity so much says God finds pleasure in the prosperity of His people. try being his person first and see prosperity. it is not difficult just change your mind. you spend too much energy hating.

it doesn't occur to people like you that churches have always built schools and hospitals even before idahosa, oyedepo and others came on the scene. successful people expose the failure in you. rather than envy see how you can use your God given talent. God don't bless lazy wicked haters i must quickly warn. you spend too much energy defending your small narrow view of the bible. i wont go there this morning. people like you would easily carry guns but for the same fear stopping you from prospering.

go read proverbs 6 and see how much God hates injustice and see if you can try to begin to hate it too.
16 There are six things the Lord hates—
no, seven things he detests:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that kill the innocent,
18 a heart that plots evil,
feet that race to do wrong,


Jesus said by this shall all men know that you love me --" that you love the brethren". you must have seen those letters even though its spirit can yet get to you. you come across like you are loving God so much you are angry for Him but you are actually hating on Him. you have not checked yourself in His mirror seriously recently.

where is your love?

i am out of here

bibiking1:

e be like say na some of una plan that robbery sef!

It's very easy to identify davidylan during an argument.  I was damn sure it was him right from his second post on this thread.  Always going off on tangent, and frantically trying to use scriptures to justify his stance, which, in most cases, are subjective.  As evidently displayed, the ever radical "Christian" brother cares less about the victims of the armed robbery attack, but is more concerned (and happy?) about the "business empire" of the Bishop that was robbed (according to david, that serves him right, isn't it?). . . of course, the brother, in his own eyes, is preaching the "message of Christ", hoping to "liberate" the "gullible".  Just the same way he was arguing blindly on the RCCG thread.  Obviously, he seems to to have a great and incurable antipathy for blooming churches. . . and as usual, he'll try to manipulate some Bible passage to prove himself right.  Most annoying of all being his constant reference to Matt 21:12-13, displaying his flawed understanding of the passage.

@TayoD, lovely posts.

@ tayo-D i had to drop off to sleep and could not reply you much earlier.

Tayo-D:

You seem to have a problem with catering to the rich.

no i have a problem with those who use riches as the yardstick of God's blessings.

Tayo-D:

My guy, riches are God's blessings.

We are both in agreement on this . . . for it is the Lord who gives his servant the power to get wealth.

Tayo-D:

What you do not understand is that abundance of money provides a good tool for God's work. Christ rode on a donkey not becuase He could not ride on a horse, but so that scriptures can be fulfilled. In His death, he was buried in a rich man's tomb just so scriptures can be fulfilled. I wish any one can point me to a place in scripture where Jesus needs anything and He lacked the necessary resources to meeet such a need. Money is a resource. Please read your Bible and you'll find out that Jesus usually travels in a convoy Mark 4:36 And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships. The purpose for all the boats is to do ministry. Whether, it is boats, planes, cars or rail, all available means must be used to make God's Word available and heard on every voice. Guess the common denominator of all these - money.

No sir . . . read your bible Jesus did not commission the convoy. Rather these were people who were more than desperate to hear the word and were prepared to go with him wherever he went. It got to a point Christ had to chide them that a lot of them were following Him not for the word but because of the miracles of feeding the multitude.

Tayo-D:

Why do you expect these people to be shipwrecked when you are yet to venture out into the sea? In a way, isn't there name and character being grounded ashore through these unsubstantiated calims of yours? You may call it extortion, but Jesu never asked the widow to take back her mite, neither did Elijah have the widow keep the flour for herself and her child.

Twisting scripture to defend the position of money has become the stock in trade of the Word of Faith movement. The widow was not paying her mite to Christ or His ministry . . . i doubt if Christ was the one collecting the temple offerings, that was going to the priests.
What has Elijah, the widow and her flour got to do with the topic at hand?
I repeat again . . . the church (as an organisation) is indeed rich but are the people (those the bible identifies as the church) spiritually and physically any better?

Tayo-D:

You again miss the point. When Paul talked about the Apostles being made spectacles, he said the oppposite to those who have come to believe in Christ through them. You will find the same boldness in people today. Perhaps you should do a little research on the Bishop and someone like Idahosa so you'll know their testimony. You ridicule their successe now while failing to recognize their days of humble beginnings. Of them the scriptures testify "that their latter end shall be greatly increased".

When the scriptures talk about "their latter end shall be greatly increased" was it talking in terms of money, cars, jets, schools and restaurants? Again we are guilty of patching up scripture to defend our covetous nature.
The apostles in the bible were spectacles of boldness, fearlessness in preaching the word with incredible signs and wonders following. Are our church leaders such "spectacles" today? Rather we talk about them in terms of how big their church is, how much they are worth and how many cars they own.

I do not "ridicule their success" . . . i am only worried that these days we only measure "success" in terms of pecuniary gains. This is sad.

Tayo-D:

Do the others run the school per Bible standards? That's the difference. Your argument is like telling me not to build a house because the Gospel has not profited from unbelievers who own houses.

The others dont run their schools per bible standards but really what is the difference if only the children of the rich can afford it? Is the gospel now only for the rich?

Tayo-D:

Get over it. The schoold is not meant for everyone just as the church (as in the denomination or local assembly) isn't meant for everyone.

Yeah i know . . . the gospel is now for the rich. sigh

Tayo-D:

For all you know, God could spend that billions of dollars so He could save the life of one person. Billy Graham was the only one who got saved after a series of revival meetings. Guess how many God saved through that one man.

God does not need billions of dollars to spread His gospel. That is the lie the enemy has planted in our hearts to justify our greed.
Go to villages and see poor brethren teaching the message of salvation with just their bibles and megaphones.

Why are virtually all the word of faith movements limited to areas of high economic value? Puhleese!

Joshjosh i have not much to say to you except this, i dont love poverty and wickedness. I am not poor and i hold on to the scriptures that say that i shall eat the good of the land.

You talk of God blessing Joseph . . . yes that is what your fathers in the word of faith movement have sold to you. They see everything only in terms of "blessings" which is simply an euphemism for money.
God made Joseph head over Egypt NOT just to bless him and make him rich BUT TO PRESERVE LIFE!!! Even Joseph himself acknowledged this fact but as usual it is swept under the carpet.

@ goodguy, you do not deserve a reply from me. For a guy who is unsaved and has a very poor understanding of the scriptures it is a wonder that you can determine what is of or on tangent.

Considering your stance on this issue, it is you that is saved abi? lol.

Yeah, I don't deserve a reply, but you still went on to reply afterall!

You talk of God blessing Joseph . . . yes that is what your fathers in the word of faith movement have sold to you. They see everything only in terms of "blessings" which is simply an euphemism for money.
God made Joseph head over Egypt NOT just to bless him and make him rich BUT TO PRESERVE LIFE!!! Even Joseph himself acknowledged this fact but as usual it is swept under the carpet.

it is so obvious you argue for arguing sake. most preachers i hear go out of their way to explain that wealth is an all inclusive thing not just money.

how could joseph have saved his people if he didnt have the financial resources at his disposal?

anyway do thanksgiving in your church that your enemy was robbed.

@davidylan

I think I have your time now.

that is what you get when "churches" end up as business empires - - the den of thieves.

I know this is an indirect reference to Matt 21:12-13.  Do you really understand why Christ drove those guys away from the temple?  It was because they actively traded their goods in the temple, and turned it into a typical market, while disregarding the purpose of, and defiling the temple at the same time with their despicable acts.  This was what got Jesus angry, and this is clearly NOT the case with Canaanland.  Your comparism is deeply flawed.

puhleeese give me a break. They robbed banks . . . is that part of God's house too?

olrotimi gave you a very succinct response there, but as usual, you allowed your fanaticism to becloud your sense of reasoning.  Do you know Canaanland has a school in it?  Do you know students of these schools save their monies in these banks?  Do you know these banks help aid transactions involving the school and other activities?  Do you know the church is just a part of Canaanland, and not canaanland itself?  Obviously, you seem to believe that only tithes and offerings are saved in the banks.  Quit displaying your ignorance.

simple logic . . . when did banks become part of a church?
Did Christ patronise money changers in the temple or drove them out with whips?

not logic dear . . . read your bible.

Simple logic, whoever said the banks are part of the church?  Whoever said money changers are in canaanland?  You're comparing coconut with pineapple here my friend.  It is you who should read your Bible, rather than make void comparisms.

This is becoming Bishop worship. Where in the bible did the apostles sit down building business empires to make money? Was it when Paul was being shipwrecked on the way to Jerusalem or when Stephen was being stoned or with Philip being transported to meet the Ethopian eunuch?
May God have mercy.

You seem to believe that the personal experiences and activities of these apostles should also apply to Christians of today, lest they may be deemed not worthy of their calling.  Going by this warped logic of yours, you would agree with me that it is a grave sin for Christians to drive cars in today's world as well, afterall, "the apostles never sat down thinking of buying cars".

Yes you can pray for security but the fact that the robbery took place in "Canaanland" does not make it any different from bank robberies on Ozumba Mbadiwe.
While Christ enjoins us to build up treasures in heaven "Bishop" is busy building his own canaanland on earth . . . when the robbers come for their share you all start calling fire and brimstone.

Were you drunk when you made this statement?  Armed robbers (criminals) came to rob a place, and you call it "coming for their share"??  So according to you, because the Bishop built a canaanland, that means he is laying up treasures on earth for himself?  And by this, he deserves to be robbed?  Is this what you're implying?

Back to my main point: why is a church now so rich? Why is a bank situated in a church? In the begining it was not so. Christ flogged money changers out of the premises of the temple accusing them of turning a house of prayer into a den of thieves . . . are we not witnessing the same today?

Can you, in details, link "what we are witnessing today" with what happened back then in the days of Jesus?  I mean, I need you to do a proper exegesis, and tell us how that passage correlates with "that thing" you're "witnessing today".

Our churches have become schools, restaurants, banks and miracle houses. Is this what the saviour meant when He said we shld lay NOT for ourselves treasures on earth where moth and rust do corrupt?

No, our Churches have NOT become schools, restaurants or banks.  Please prove me wrong with well explained examples.  I don't need you to link some out-of-thin-air scenarios now, but practical, verifiable examples.  And don't just tell me, "look at so-so-so church", I need you to tell me HOW that so-so-so church has become a school, restaurant or bank.  Miracle houses? I quite agree with you on that.


Regards.

@ goodguy thanks but i'll pass, i dont take arguments from people who doubt the veracity of the bible seriously. You're arguing merely to counter me not because you have any counter points.
I'll stick with joshjosh and tayo-D. Thank you.

joshjosh:

it is so obvious you argue for arguing sake. most preachers i hear go out of their way to explain that wealth is an all inclusive thing not just money.

I notice however that you're basically arguing for sentiments sake. Pls open the bible and show me where i'm wrong . . . that shld be the basis of this.

joshjosh:

how could joseph have saved his people if he didnt have the financial resources at his disposal?

Pls sir read your bible again. Joseph did not save his people with money . . . the jews had money (they were buying grain from Egypt!) . . . he saved His people because God gave him the divine wisdom to store grain during the 7yrs of famine.

joshjosh:

anyway do thanksgiving in your church that your enemy was robbed.

Again sentiments is at play here. No one is my enemy neither am i rejoicing that they've been attacked by robbers.
This is the typical approach u see from the word of faith movement. Rid yourselves of the extra-biblical doctrines that are clouding ur vision.

4Him:

@ goodguy thanks but i'll pass, i don't take arguments from people who doubt the veracity of the bible seriously. You're arguing merely to counter me not because you have any counter points.
I'll stick with joshjosh and tayo-D. Thank you.

What a "smart" way to avoid my points.   But you know what?  You're such a hypocritical tool!

You gladly and vigorously reply arguments from jagunlabi and others like him who don't believe in the Bible.  Even more vehemently do you take arguments from Muslims who obviously doubt the veracity of the Bible (an activity you're very well known for on this forum).  But what do we have here?  Keep deceiving yourself.

If you really have any reasonable points here (which you obviously lack), you will overlook my religious views and focus on the points I raised.

goodguy:

What a "smart" way to avoid my points. But you know what? You're such a hypocritical tool!

You gladly and vigorously reply arguments from jagunlabi and others like him who don't believe in the Bible. Even more vehemently do you take arguments from Muslims who obviously doubt the veracity of the Bible (an activity you're very well known for on this forum). But what do we have here? Keep deceiving yourself.

the above in highlights is just one of the reasons i dont entertain any "points" from you.
Notice the exchange between Tayo-D, joshjosh and i . . . even though we all hold varying viewpoints there was NO exchange of banal insults until you rudely barged into a discussion on a bible that you do not believe in.

I argue with Jagunlabi and others because unlike you we all know where they stand. They dont come here arguing about the bible when deep down they dont believe in it.

About your points? There was really nothing there . . . i'd rather stick to the other guys who are clearly interested in discussing issues irrespective of who is espousing them. Right from your first post here its bleeding obvious that your REAL intent is to throw mud in my eyes and not really about "points".

Pls allow us the space to reason together and keep the bad blooding you've been harbouring since last yr away from this thread.

I heard the pastor gave them 24hrs to confess , and i am anxiously waiting for the 24hrs to pass

4Him:

that is what you get when "churches" end up as business empires - - the den of thieves.

This is your first post on the topic and all you can come up with is this? Did you not read about the loss of lives during the mayhem unleashed by the thieves?

And since when did it become wrong  if a bank decides to have their office on canaanland?

pahtahkee:

This is your first post on the topic and all you can come up with is this? Did you not read about the loss of lives during the mayhem unleashed by the thieves?

And since when did it become wrong  if a bank decides to have their office on canaanland?

Bros, please show me one place in the bible where the apostles turned their ministeries into business empires. Please just one.
A bank within church premises . . . for what purpose sir? Have we turned the house of God into a place for merchandise?

I sympathise with those who lost their lives but there are consequences for every action. Achan stole just a few materials from the people of Ai, several innocent jews perished for that singular act until Joshua had to seek the face of God and he was fished out.
His family ended up paying the price for his greed.

4Him:

Bros, please show me one place in the bible where the apostles turned their ministeries into business empires. Please just one.
A bank within church premises . . . for what purpose sir? Have we turned the house of God into a place for merchandise?

Sir, even the apostles had a common purse. Have you read that in your bible? Where was this common purse situated? 200 miles from the apostles house?

Have you asked yourself why would a bank want to have their office on canaanland? It makes it easier for students and individuals on canaanland to do their financial transactions without having to travel and go through the rigours of the death traps we call roads.

**sighs**
_lamenting

4Him:

I argue with Jagunlabi and others because unlike you we all know where they stand. They don't come here arguing about the bible when deep down they don't believe in it.

Not an excuse.  Focus on the message, not the messenger.

4Him:

Bros, please show me one place in the bible where the apostles turned their ministeries into business empires. Please just one.

Bros, please show me one place in the Bible where the apostles used a computer or argued on Nairaland.  (See the folly of your logic here?)  Besides, can you tell us how Oyedepo has turned the ministry into a business empire (since that seems to be your point)??

4Him:

A bank within church premises . . . for what purpose sir? Have we turned the house of God into a place for merchandise?

Does this guy know what Canaanland really is?  In it, we've got a church, in it, we've got a school, in it we've got banks, and probably other businesses there.  Can you prove that all these are wrong to have together, using the scriptures to back up your point?, since that's what you want to make us believe now.

4Him:

I sympathise with those who lost their lives but there are consequences for every action. Achan stole just a few materials from the people of Ai, several innocent jews perished for that singular act until Joshua had to seek the face of God and he was fished out.
His family ended up paying the price for his greed.

This is one of the stupidest things I've ever read from a human being.  David please STOP twisting the Bible to support your shaky stance.  People died, you claim to sympathise with them but you're still trying to use Bible to show us how their death is "justified"?  Really, what kind of a person are you?

pahtahkee:

Sir, even the apostles had a common purse. Have you read that in your bible? Where was this common purse situated? 200 miles from the apostles house?

Have you asked yourself why would a bank want to have their office on canaanland? It makes it easier for students and individuals on canaanland to do their financial transactions without having to travel and go through the rigours of the death traps we call roads.

Your argument sounds very convincing that i gave it a much deeper thought.
You talk about the apostles having a common purse . . . is the money in the banks a "common purse" to every member of canaanland?
Are the schools and restaurants there part of the "common purse"?

4Him:

Your argument sounds very convincing that i gave it a much deeper thought.
You talk about the apostles having a common purse . . . is the money in the banks a "common purse" to every member of canaanland?
Are the schools and restaurants there part of the "common purse"?

You know what I mean by a common purse here. A student himself has his own common purse which in our time now is the bank.

Keep in mind that the bank does not serve the church alone, but also students, lecturer, non-teaching staff, who do their financial transaction daily with the help of the bank.

In the modern day society we live, I have only visited my bank just 3 times! Thanks to the technology we have in our time. I know Nigeria is not yet there, thats why thieves are empowered to enter a bank and kill innocent lives and steal money.

What we should be talking of here is, what is the way forward?

pahtahkee:

You know what I mean by a common purse here. A student himself has his own common purse which in our time now is the bank.

another misrepresentation of scripture. The "common purse" as refered to in acts is not the same as a bank today. Can a student with no money just go to the bank and ask for help?

4Him:

another misrepresentation of scripture. The "common purse" as refered to in acts is not the same as a bank today. Can a student with no money just go to the bank and ask for help?

What then is the common purse? Of what relevance was it at that time?

Are you telling me students can not approach a bank where you reside to ask for help?

i pity the people that call you friends or family member. you are such a cold blooded person it is unbelievable. i have been waiting for you to show sympathy for the dead but you are still justifying it.

i grew up in places where banks were inside universities in Nigeria serving not just the university community but the people that work in the surrounding areas. that is almost 30 years in Nigeria and you are complaining of a bank being in canaanland.

i hate to say this. you are evil. your bible must be the same the ogboni's carry. don't tell me you are a Jehovah's witness or olumba olumba because even they know better to have human sympathy. your slow poison religion is vile and obscene.

Please sir read your bible again. Joseph did not save his people with money . . . the Jews had money (they were buying grain from Egypt!) . . . he saved His people because God gave him the divine wisdom to store grain during the 7yrs of famine.

you mean the Jews bought from Egypt and took their money back again? you are so religious you forget common sense. we had a shop when i was young. everyone that patronized us made us richer.

you save by influence and the favour on you. paul saved onisemus too by his influence. stop thinking you have a monopoly on understanding the bible. what kind of evil church brought you up to see every other church as doing wrong?

i know too much to be deceived by people like you. you have a very poor mind. that is why i never ever read your religious rantings without LOVE.

again i will say this to you. you are very divisive person that is a trait of the religious mind. get the mind of Christ. the mind that loves and teach people to love the brethren. that is the mark of love for Christ.

you cannot love Christ and hate his church like you do because they are not poor like you. like i said do a thanksgiving in your church tomorrow.

i see you also hate the word of faith movement too. if you check those 3 words you will see how silly you are. i dont have your time so i am going to leave you and your slow poison. i can't see why you people destroy that lovely country with your silly religion. enjoy your dirty poor mind because it will not carry you too long

joshjosh . . . it is easy to see those who are easily led by religious sentiments . . . they dont bother to use the scriptures to defend their position.
Keep cursing me sir.

joshjosh:

you mean the Jews bought from Egypt and took their money back again? you are so religious you forget common sense. we had a shop when i was young. everyone that patronized us made us richer.

The jews had their money returned back as a ploy and NOT because they had no more money to buy more grain. Again pls read ur bible.
Your shop has no relevance to this topic.

joshjosh:

you save by influence and the favour on you. paul saved onisemus too by his influence. stop thinking you have a monopoly on understanding the bible. what kind of evil church brought you up to see every other church as doing wrong?

Paul saved not by influence sir but by the grace of God on His life. The very grace that almost turned Felix to believe his words . . . today how many of our church leaders will be bold enough to tell our political leaders the truth? None!
The "evil church" that brought me up taught me to be like the Berean christians who did not just swallow every extra-bibilical truth hook, line and sinker.

joshjosh:

i know too much to be deceived by people like you. you have a very poor mind. that is why i never ever read your religious rantings without LOVE.

no problem sir.

One thing i notice sir, for those who are truly bereft of spiritual understanding . . . they quickly shift from reasoning thru the scriptures to personal attacks. Keep it up.