Enigma:

Yes indeed! The catholics referred to below!

Westminster Confession of Faith



Hallelujah! Thank God for the catholic Church; thank God for the Church catholic.

i do not subscribe to d westminister confession.

Enigma: And funny enough there will only be slander on their "pope" according to that Westminster Confession if the "pope" claims to be Head of the Church and therefore pit himself against Christ. (Or if the pope's followers so pit him against Christ)

You know what is more interesting? A former Roman Catholic "pope" said pretty much the same thing in other circumstances.

From the words of Gregory I or Gregory the Great/the Dialogist then as simply Bishop of Rome (or according to Roman Catholics, "Pope" Gregory I).

u have absolutely no idea of what gregory was talking about. He was condemning d bishop of constantinople who was using dat title to mean that he is d only priest, it is dat insinuation that gregory was condeming as heretical.
Gregory later excommunicated the bishop.

Ubenedictus: i agree with it somewhat. The correct thing is, catholics wrote the bible. Technically the apostles were catholics.

Yes the apostles were catholics in the sense of the Westminster Confession. However they were not Roman Catholics.

So yes, we catholics (and NOT Roman Catholics) wrote the Bible.

Ubenedictus: u have absolutely no idea of what gregory was talking about. He was condemning d bishop of constantinople who was using dat title to mean that he is d only priest, it is dat insinuation that gregory was condeming as heretical.
Gregory later excommunicated the bishop.

Ah, sorry but (a) you are ignorant of what I know and (b) you have not read my post carefully and did not understand it. Read it again and pay attention to the words "in other circumstances".

Syncan:

Exactly my point. Gregory 1 is seen here affirming the humility of past popes and exhorting the future ones to follow same. But The Westminster version, instead of exhorting the Archbishop of Canterbury, decided to delve into another territory. If you cannot see the difference in the two then it's your making.

The Roman Catholic "popes" asked for the kind of inflammatory statement in that chapter of the Westminster Confession (especially from about the late 4th century though the Reformation and to some extent till now) with their claim of "universal jurisdiction" and headship of the Church.

Unfortunately, many present day Roman Catholics are themselves calling for that attitude ---- including very clearly quite a number on this very thread.

@ubenedictus
I am sure you ll really get my point by now

frosbel:

don't try your 'slimy' play of words with me.

What is LORD ? Which Lord, No Jesus mentioned.

Jesus is lord.

Enigma:

The Roman Catholic "popes" asked for the kind of inflammatory statement in that chapter of the Westminster Confession (especially from about the late 4th century though the Reformation and to some extent till now) with their claim of "universal jurisdiction" and headship of the Church.

Unfortunately, many present day Roman Catholics are themselves calling for that attitude ---- including very clearly quite a number on this very thread.

I wonder how many people our Lord Jesus told to "Feed my Sheep" and "feed my lamb". I wonder how many people he made such a proclamation as he made in Matt 16 16-19. Nor will you Ignore Acts 1,2,10,11 and 15, where it is shown that the apostles understood that Peter leads. He was their mouthpiece,and whoever professes their faith, abides by the decision of the leaders with Peter as the Head. Peter when making proclamations in Acts 15, represent the decision taken by the council, and gives such decision authority. Thank you for saying "the Roman catholic Popes....about the late 4th century..." My question though is... at that time, what other christian group was in existence? Catholics will not tell the other denominations to take the pope as their head, because, to have the pope as your head, you must be in agreement with his proclamations as representing the mind of the Leaders just like the early Christians took Peter. The shepherd knows his sheep and the sheep know him. Not being proud themselves, these shepherd in line with the teachings of the Good Shepherd, took the title "Servant of the servants of God" as early as Gregory 1 in 6th century, yet some people writing a "Westminister Confession" one thousand years (1000yrs)after is disturbed by conscience to accuse him or claiming to be god.

^^^ Search the forum and you will see that we have long discombobulated the arguments of the Roman Catholic apologists on those matters --- comprehensively.

When I come back from Church (today is Palm Sunday afterall) and if I am in a generous mood, I could find a post that lists various threads on which those matters were sorted.

Syncan:

Now again frosbel, "say the truth always, it shall set you free" this is one thing I have hammered through out your post to you. Now you say again that it is better to institutionalize a sin, rather than be ashamed of it. Please Frosbel, for your sake, say the truth always!

Don't even get me started , we will just end up opening a can of worms .

For starters , review : This and This

frosbel:

Don't even get me started , we will just end up opening a can of worms .

For starters , review : This and This

Nothing in the articles with its sensational journalism contradicts my position. You supported the Church that is institutionalizing Sin of some of her members, and vilified the church denouncing the sin of some of her members. Say the truth Frosbel!

Syncan:

Nothing in the articles with its sensational journalism contradicts my position. You supported the Church that is institutionalizing Sin of some of her members, and vilified the church denouncing the sin of some of her members. Say the truth Frosbel!

It is .

Racism is institutionalized in some countries though it is not official, but it is a real life experience for countless many.

Same thing with s.exual abuse, hundreds of thousands of girls and boys have been abused by your so called holy fathers and priests , and instead of repenting they cover each others back , which is the sort of thing you find in cults.

How on earth people will go and confess their sins to a p.edophile priest who has yet to repent of his own sins, is a real baffle.

For example p.edophiles get posted to another parish where they carry on with their abuse of unsuspecting victims.

And we have not started talking about elderly priest abusing younger ones, the impregnation of nuns and abortion of babies etc etc.

It is a trend and the whole thing is a stench and filth.

there is nothing Holy about those wicked men.

Enigma:

Yes the apostles were catholics in the sense of the Westminster Confession. However they were not Roman Catholics.

actually u would be likened to the heretic in those days, those who held fully, truly and wholly d truths of Christ wrote the bible, not those wu have rejected and or added to the the truth with falsehood.

So yes, we catholics (and NOT Roman Catholics) wrote the Bible.

"roman" is d tag given to us to differentiate us from d "anglo catholics". You have introduced a false comparism.

Ah, sorry but (a) you are ignorant of what I know and (b) you have not read my post carefully and did not understand it. Read it again and pay attention to the words "in other circumstances".

i was ur "in other circumstances", unfortunately, to provide a quote out of d blue without context is as good as misleading.

Enigma:

The Roman Catholic "popes" asked for the kind of inflammatory statement in that chapter of the Westminster Confession (especially from about the late 4th century though the Reformation and to some extent till now) with their claim of "universal jurisdiction" and headship of the Church.

Unfortunately, many present day Roman Catholics are themselves calling for that attitude ---- including very clearly quite a number on this very thread.

i'm sure you will accuse ignatius of heresy becos he bears witness that even in his days (1st/2nd century) the roman church presided in love over all d others.
Universal jurisdiction didnt start in d 4th century, ignatius bears witness to it even earlier.
Peace.

chukwudi44: @ubenedictus
I am sure you ll really get my point by now

hehehe, i'm a believer that there is the capacity for extra ordinary good in every man. I believe even when i can't see it. For now i don't have a reason to complain about enigma.

Enigma: ^^^ Search the forum and you will see that we have long discombobulated the arguments of the Roman Catholic apologists on those matters --- comprehensively.

When I come back from Church (today is Palm Sunday afterall) and if I am in a generous mood, I could find a post that lists various threads on which those matters were sorted.

if am to talk about those threads u seem to mention, this thread will scatter, i'll hold myself and keep d peace.

frosbel:

It is .

Racism is institutionalized [/b]in some countries [b]though it is not official, but it is a real life experience for countless many.

Same thing with s.exual abuse, hundreds of thousands of girls and boys have been abused by your so called holy fathers and priests , and instead of repenting they cover each others back , which is the sort of thing you find in cults.

How on earth people will go and confess their sins to a p.edophile priest who has yet to repent of his own sins, is a real baffle.

For example p.edophiles get posted to another parish where they carry on with their abuse of unsuspecting victims.

And we have not started talking about elderly priest abusing younger ones, the impregnation of nuns and abortion of babies etc etc.

It is a trend and the whole thing is a stench and filth.

there is nothing Holy about those wicked men.

You are holding unto cobweb, how you expect it to support your weight is what i do not understand...@ the ones in bold. That is what you are using to support the election of unrepentant homosexual Bishop? Frosbel say the truth! When did we start attacking individuals, no one has ever denied the existence of sinners or saintly ones in the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I thought you read scriptures? According to you, Jesus must have been wrong not to expose Judas Iscariot whom he knows was a thief, but allowed to still be in charge of the common purse. Can you give me an explanation for that? Did you know what was going on between them? You read so much soft sell magazine and allow the media propagating modernism against Christianity to deceive you.

frosbel:

It is .

Racism is institutionalized in some countries though it is not official, but it is a real life experience for countless many.

Same thing with s.exual abuse, hundreds of thousands of girls and boys have been abused by your so called holy fathers and priests , and instead of repenting they cover each others back , which is the sort of thing you find in cults.

How on earth people will go and confess their sins to a p.edophile priest who has yet to repent of his own sins, is a real baffle.

For example p.edophiles get posted to another parish where they carry on with their abuse of unsuspecting victims.

And we have not started talking about elderly priest abusing younger ones, the impregnation of nuns and abortion of babies etc etc.

It is a trend and the whole thing is a stench and filth.

there is nothing Holy about those wicked men.

you didnt address his point u are spining ur emotional arguement.
So instutionaling a sin is better than denouncing it abi?

Ubenedictus: actually u would be likened to the heretic in those days, those who held fully, truly and wholly d truths of Christ wrote the bible, not those wu have rejected and or added to the the truth with falsehood.

It would be a badge of honour for me to be called a heretic by Roman Catholics. The kind of thing that I'm complaining of that makes you want to call me a heretic was also complained of by men and Christians far greater than me --- like Cyprian of Carthage, like Augustine of Hippo. It is of course the kind of thing that led the Roman Catholic (though not them exclusively) to cause the Great Schism. And of course here we are today because of the recalcitrance of Roman Catholics.

Ubenedictus: "roman" is d tag given to us to differentiate us from d "anglo catholics". You have introduced a false comparism.

Nah, official documents of the Roman Catholic Church add the 'Roman'; the last pope and the one before him referred to the church they headed as Roman Catholic.

Ah, by the way, go and read again the text of the "Habemus Papam" by which the Roman Catholic Church announces the appointment of its popes including the most recent announcement concerning Mr. Bergoglio --- and see whether the RCC is not referred to as Roman.

Ubenedictus: i was ur "in other circumstances", unfortunately, to provide a quote out of d blue without context is as good as misleading.

Nah, not to read carefully and understand properly is to mislead yourself.

Ubenedictus: i'm sure you will accuse ignatius of heresy becos he bears witness that even in his days (1st/2nd century) the roman church presided in love over all d others.
Universal jurisdiction didnt start in d 4th century, ignatius bears witness to it even earlier.
Peace.

Naah, I'm not going to bother myself about this here. I have already in the past dealt with that thoroughly. Let me just say Ignatius who first used the word "catholic" in relation to The Christian Church will not recognise what the Roman Catholics are now calling "catholic".

Cyprian of Carthage

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition - 251 AD)

"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they would not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard."
St Augustin of hippo in The True Religion, 7,12, 397 A.D.

"What the soul is to man's body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church. The Holy Spirit does in the whole Church what the soul does in all members of one body. But see what you must beware of, see what you must take note of, see what you must fear. It happens that in the human body, or rather, off the body, some member, whether hand, finger, or foot, may be cut away. And if a member be cut off, does the soul go with it? When the member was in the body, it lived; and off, its life is lost. So too, a Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member." St Augustine of hippo
Sermons, 267, 4, 391-430 A.D.

Saint Augustine (354-430), one of the Fathers of the Church and Bishop of Hippo, was a most prolific writer, and defender of the Catholic Church. He is quoted by Catholics and non-Catholics alike. In his many writings, he mentioned the Catholic Church by name, more than 300 times.
Here are some of his "Gems".

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

"You made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you."
Confessions, 1,1,1, 400 A.D.

His work, "Confessions" is a 13 volume series and is considered to be one of the greatest writings of all time. It is entirely addressed to GOD.

"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they would not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard."
The True Religion, 7,12, 397 A.D.

"This Church is Holy, the One Church, the True Church, the Catholic Church, fighting as she does against all heresies. She can fight, but she cannot be beaten. All heresies are expelled from her, like the useless loppings pruned from a vine. She remains fixed in her root, in her vine, in her love. The gates of hell shall not conquer her."
Sermon to Catechumens, on the Creed, 6,14, 395 A.D.

"But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary Councils, the authority of which is quite vital to the Church."
Letter to Januarius 54,1,1, 400 A.D.

"I believe that this practice comes from apostolic tradition, just as so many other practices not found in their writings nor in the councils of their successors, but which, because they are kept by the whole Church everywhere, are believed to have been commended and handed down by the Apostles themselves."
Baptism 1,12,20, 400 A.D.

"Before His suffering the Lord Jesus Christ, as you know, chose His disciples, whom He called Apostles. Among these Apostles almost everywhere Peter alone merited to represent the whole Church. For the sake of his representing the whole Church, which he alone could do, he merited to hear, I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven (Matt 16:19)."St Augustine of hippo
Sermons 295,2, 391 A.D.

"By the same word, by the same Sacrament you were born, but you will not come to the same inheritance of eternal life, unless you return to the Catholic Church."
Sermons, 3, 391 A.D.

"Tell us straight out that you do not believe in the Gospel of Christ; for you believe what you want in the Gospel and disbelieve what you want. You believe in yourself rather than in the Gospel."
Against Faustus, 17, 3, 400 A.D.

"Do you claim to be strong? You will be beaten by beasts. Do you claim speed? Flies are faster. Do you claim beauty? What great beauty there is in a peafowl's feathers. How are you better, then, than these? By the image of GOD. And where is GOD's image? In your mind, in your intellect."
Homilies on the Gospel of John, 3,4, 416 A.D.

"Adam sleeps that Eve may be formed; Christ dies that the Church may be formed. Eve is formed from the side of the sleeping Adam; the side of the dead Christ is pierced by the lance, so that the Sacraments may flow out, of which the Church is formed."
Homilies on the Gospel of John, 9,10, 416 A.D.

"Man, destined to die, labors to avert his dying; and yet man, destined to live in eternity, does not labor to avoid sinning."
Homilies on the Gospel of John, 49,2, 416 A.D.

"What the soul is to man's body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church. The Holy Spirit does in the whole Church what the soul does in all members of one body. But see what you must beware of, see what you must take note of, see what you must fear. It happens that in the human body, or rather, off the body, some member, whether hand, finger, or foot, may be cut away. And if a member be cut off, does the soul go with it? When the member was in the body, it lived; and off, its life is lost. So too, a Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member."
Sermons, 267, 4, 391-430 A.D.

"Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of GOD is able to forgive all sins. They are wretched indeed, because they do not recognize in Peter the rock and they refuse to believe that the keys of the kingdom of heaven, lost from their own hands, have been given to the Church." Christian Combat 31,33, 396 A.D.

"If you want GOD to forgive, you must confess. Sin cannot go unpunished. It were seemingly, improper, and unjust for sin to go unpunished. Since, therefore, sin must not go unpunished, let it be punished by you, lest you be punished for it. Let your sin have you for its judge, not its patron.
Go up and take the bench against yourself, and put the guilt before yourself.
Do not put it behind you, or GOD will put it in front of you."
Sermons, 20,2, 410 A.D.

"The Catholic Church is the work of Divine Providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation and the teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the suffering, the crosses, the blood and the death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saints. When, then, we see so much help on God's part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church? For starting from the Apostolic Chair down through successions of bishops, even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the crown of teaching authority."
The Advantage of Believing, 391 A.D.

The Roman Church were the pre-eminence of the Apostolic See was always present 'st Augustine [Ep. 43, 3, 7]." [Ott  IV.2.2.6]

Hahaha

Enigma:
It would be a badge of honour for me to be called a heretic by Roman Catholics. The kind of thing that I'm complaining of that makes you want to call me a heretic was also complained of by men and Christians far greater than me --- like Cyprian of Carthage, like Augustine of Hippo. It is of course the kind of thing that led the Roman Catholic (though not them exclusively) to cause the Great Schism. And of course here we are today because of the recalcitrance of Roman Catholics.

i likened i didnt call u a heretic. Beside you have rejected the believes of augustine and cyprian i see no reason why u bring them to d evidence box.

Nah, official documents of the Roman Catholic Church add the 'Roman'; the last pope and the one before him referred to the church they headed as Roman Catholic.

Ah, by the way, go and read again the text of the "Habemus Papam" by which the Roman Catholic Church announces the appointment of its popes including the most recent announcement concerning Mr. Bergoglio --- and see whether the RCC is not referred to as Roman.

and that doesn't negate d fact that d tag came from d "anglo catholics"

Nah, not to read carefully and understand properly is to mislead yourself.

if u like u may continue to present quotes without context

Naah, I'm not going to bother myself about this here. I have already in the past dealt with that thoroughly. Let me just say Ignatius who first used the word "catholic" in relation to The Christian Church will not recognise what the Roman Catholics are now calling "catholic".

these are your words.

chukwudi44: "We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they would not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard."
St Augustin of hippo in The True Religion, 7,12, 397 A.D.

here augustin clearly says d heretics are different from the catholic church

chukwudi44: "What the soul is to man's body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church. The Holy Spirit does in the whole Church what the soul does in all members of one body. But see what you must beware of, see what you must take note of, see what you must fear. It happens that in the human body, or rather, off the body, some member, whether hand, finger, or foot, may be cut away. And if a member be cut off, does the soul go with it? When the member was in the body, it lived; and off, its life is lost. So too, a Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member." St Augustine of hippo
Sermons, 267, 4, 391-430 A.D.

chukwudi please paste this in reyginus thread. This shows clearly that d early xtians considered the heretics outside d church.

Ubenedictus: ignatius of (1st/2nd century)

Can i please have the date of birth of that ^ person?

Thanks.
(waiting)

truthislight:

Can i please have the date of birth of that ^ person?

Thanks.
(waiting)

St Ignatius of antioch was born around 35CE

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch