mazaje:

I say god does not exist because all gods are man made. . .The idea of god evolved from ancient people and their superstitions, even today we still have people creating gods, example the god Xenu of scientology. . .It was created not long ago and the god has millions of worshipers the world over. . .It is a proven fact through history and anthropology that gods and religions are man made. . .Pls point to any god that exist on its own without human influence. . .

In summary...you don't know whether God exist or not...cool!!! Like I mentioned before, expressing an opinion about something is different from proving it. The fact that an individual chooses to make a God for himself does not in any way prove that there is no God...

mazaje:
Granted, i didn't actually express myself they way I would have loved to. . .

Cool!!!

mazaje:
Granted, but god is a testable hypothesis. . .That is why i asked you to define what god is and show how it exist then we can test and see if its true or not. . .

I guess you did not see the point in my dance earlier? It was actually meant to point out to you that you do exactly the same thing that you accuse the religious of doing...I hold a belief that there is God...you hold the belief that there is no God...my belief that there is God is based on faith because there is no objective proof...your belief that there is no God is based on faith cause it also does not have an objective proof...

Anyways, let me oblige you a bit and stop my dance for the now...

You asked for a definition of God...here it is:

God is the first cause who jump-started the 'process' without himself being caused.

All that we are experiencing today has some start-off point...I really do not mind if you guys choose to say that some force set the ball rolling...

The bottom line is that something or someone started all this and that something or someone is who I call the first cause or simply put: God!!! If you want evidence then, you are the evidence you seek...unless you want to say that you do not exist then my evidence can be put in the thrash bin.

mazaje:
Because god is a man made idea and conception, as such no god can be shown to exist on its own independent of what men chose to write about such a god, say about such a god, accept about such a god and do for such a god. . .if you know any god that exist independent of human conception and creation then point to it. . .We can begin with the bible , if you want. . .is the bible the word of god?

The above is still your opinion man and you have a right to it.

mazaje:

Can you show that heaven and hell are NOT mythical places?. . .

Hell is the grave you would be thrown into when you die......except you doubt that graves exist.....

And look up you'll see the heavens bro......


The heavens is Gods place of abode........

Ofcourse not a physical place like the white house............

musKeeto:

So heaven and hell's reality? I thought it was based on faith..

Oboy heaven dey kampe......

Then Hell all of us go visit am when we die.........

thehomer:

I'm assuming that this story is to draw an analogy between a believer and a non-believer. For this discussion, I'll assume that the believer is a Christian. The fundamental problem here is that if a baby's senses were functional, surely they would be able to hear, feel and listen to the mother. The mere presence of these physical sensations and their absence when compared to a God shows just how deficient the idea of the God is.

It beats me that it has not occurred to you that all the sounds about us in the universe are the sounds of God in the same way as all the sounds around the babies in the analogy are the sounds of the unseen mother and her movements.

striktlymi:

You asked for a definition of God...here it is:

God is the first cause who jump-started the 'process' without himself being caused.

All that we are experiencing today has some start-off point...I really do not mind if you guys choose to say that some force set the ball rolling...

The bottom line is that something or someone started all this and that something or someone is who I call the first cause or simply put: God!!! If you want evidence then, you are the evidence you seek...unless you want to say that you do not exist then my evidence can be put in the thrash bin.

.

Folks, please how do you remove or cancel a bad post?

mazaje:

The god hypothesis is a testable one, it is a scientific hypothesis if it is true. . .tell me what god is and show how it exist in reality, then I will show you that it doesn't because i should be able to test it and verify if it exist or not. . .Go ahead , take show your shot. . tell me what a god is and show how it exist. . .

Because something cannot emerge from nothing, as we have said a zillion times. As such, since things exist, then there logically exists something permanent, from which things exist. That is simple logic and makes perfect sense. That permanent something is what people call God in different languages, period.

striktlymi:

You asked for a definition of God...here it is:

God is the first cause who jump-started the 'process' without himself being caused.

All that we are experiencing today has some start-off point...I really do not mind if you guys choose to say that some force set the ball rolling...

The bottom line is that something or someone started all this and that something or someone is who I call the first cause or simply put: God!!! If you want evidence then, you are the evidence you seek...unless you want to say that you do not exist then my evidence can be put in the thrash bin.

.

This is a rather curious definition of god

This first-cause god, how is it related to the god of moslems/christians/jews, allah or yaweh Does he have any other atributes other than being the first cause?

Did he create heaven and hell, too? Lucidly explain where these two are located, will you

When an atheist states that heaven, hell and god are fantasies he is referring to the gods of moslems/christians/jews etc; for they are the ones who claim they have been in contact with him.

Deep Sight:

It beats me that it has not occurred to you that all the sounds about us in the universe are the sounds of God in the same way as all the sounds around the babies in the analogy are the sounds of the unseen mother and her movements.

Sounds are caused by vibrations being transmitted through some medium and for these sounds to be from God, then God has to be a physical entity. Is your God a physical entity?

Secondly, deep space is a poor transmitter of sound so the sounds that you're referring to are suspicious.

turnstoner:

This is a rather curious definition of god

This first-cause god, how is it related to the god of moslems/christians/jews, allah or yaweh Does he have any other atributes other than being the first cause?

Did he create heaven and hell, too? Lucidly explain where these two are located, will you

When an atheist states that heaven, hell and god are fantasies he is referring to the gods of moslems/christians/jews etc; for they are the ones who claim they have been in contact with him.

I do not believe there is anthing like God of the Christians, God of the Muslims, God of the pagans etc. I believe firmly that every religion refers to the same 'God' (the first cause) but their perception of this God defers.

This really doesn't change what this first cause is...a lot of persons have different perceptions of me based on what they believe to be their experience of me but this does no change who I am.

It becomes more difficult because unlike me this first cause is not 'readily available' to anyone who wants to take an early morning stroll to his office physically. So really it's not surprising that there are so many perceptions of him or it.

Now to the ish of calling heaven, hell etc fantancies...the question still props up: How do you know for sure? At best this is your opinion on the matter. Don't you think that if this first cause can suspend the Earth in space and created the universe such that the Universe understands one language (Mathematics), why then is it difficult to admit that there might be some other realities that might not be known to the human eye e.g Heaven or may be a hell?

thehomer:

Sounds are caused by vibrations being transmitted through some medium and for these sounds to be from God, then God has to be a physical entity. Is your God a physical entity?

Secondly, deep space is a poor transmitter of sound so the sounds that you're referring to are suspicious.

I spoke of ALL sounds. In other words you are living in a bubble. Everything you hear is either within the bubble or transmitted from without the bubble. So the issue is not deep or shallow space my friend. The issue is about everything you see, hear, feel, smell, touch. In short, everything you perceive.

For the purposes of this particular line of reasoning, it does not matter if God is physical or not. As I have said before, you are free to see it as physical, but its existence as the sum of the whole, the container or "box" in which the universe is, the womb in which the babies live and grow, cannot be denied.

striktlymi:

Cool!!!



I guess you did not see the point in my dance earlier? It was actually meant to point out to you that you do exactly the same thing that you accuse the religious of doing...I hold a belief that there is God...you hold the belief that there is no God...my belief that there is God is based on faith because there is no objective proof...your belief that there is no God is based on faith cause it also does not have an objective proof...

Anyways, let me oblige you a bit and stop my dance for the now...

You asked for a definition of God...here it is:

God is the first cause who jump-started the 'process' without himself being caused.

All that we are experiencing today has some start-off point...I really do not mind if you guys choose to say that some force set the ball rolling...

The bottom line is that something or someone started all this and that something or someone is who I call the first cause or simply put: God!!! If you want evidence then, you are the evidence you seek...unless you want to say that you do not exist then my evidence can be put in the thrash bin.




The above is still your opinion man and you have a right to it.

First of all, because a statement or a claim lacks the requisite proof of truthfulness, does not mean its by faith, rather it is doubtful. Faith is a test by subjective standards.

You defined God as the Cause that triggers the remainder cause and effect relationships (that's what I understood). My question to you is this: the causal principle (the necessity for an event to lead to another) is caused by God too? If causality was not preexisting, then God wouldn't have caused anything including causality itself.

Deep Sight:

Because something cannot emerge from nothing, as we have said a zillion times. As such, since things exist, then there logically exists something permanent, from which things exist. That is simple logic and makes perfect sense. That permanent something is what people call God in different languages, period.

This is untrue. Most cultures don't accept the view that a God is an uncaused being, rather he is an unequal being. And humans who are able to perform incredible feats are deemed divine.

Zoroasterianism despite being monotheist, accepts duality.

Deep Sight:

Because something cannot emerge from nothing, as we have said a zillion times. As such, since things exist, then there logically exists something permanent, from which things exist. That is simple logic and makes perfect sense. That permanent something is what people call God in different languages, period.

Many materialists believe causal relationships merely shift forms of a permanent entity: Matter. It wld be illogical to conclude that these fellows believe in God.

Evening Kay,

Kay 17:

First of all, because a statement or a claim lacks the requisite proof of truthfulness, does not mean its by faith, rather it is doubtful. Faith is a test by subjective standards.

Well Kay, a claim need not be proven to be true for it to require faith to uphold. In the context we are using it, faith is simply put: "a firm belief in something for which there is no proof".

Hence, when an individual says that there is no God but fails to show this objectively by way of proof then the individual necessarily uphold a belief for which there is no proof and as such that individual can have faith attributed to his claim.

Kay 17:
You defined God as the Cause that triggers the remainder cause and effect relationships (that's what I understood).

You got the general gist but not quite...the first cause started the process such that it becomes self sustaining. So it's really not exactly "triggering the remaining cause and effect relationships"...it's more like starting a chain reaction with the intent of it being self sustaining...you are right in calling it the "trigger" anyways.

Kay 17:
My question to you is this: the causal principle (the necessity for an event to lead to another) is caused by God too? If causality was not preexisting, then God wouldn't have caused anything including causality itself.

Now this is thinking critically...but you forget that the principle of causality is a name humans gave to an observed phenomena...you can say this principle is an idea that was developed over time as a consequence of the relationship that exists between two or more variables.

Thus, we really can't say the principle of causality was pre-existent because it started when this process was put in motion. From Newton's first law of motion, we can see that a body will continue to be in a state of rest until it is acted upon by some external force.

Deep Sight:

Because something cannot emerge from nothing, as we have said a zillion times. As such, since things exist, then there logically exists something permanent, from which things exist. That is simple logic and makes perfect sense. That permanent something is what people call God in different languages, period.

That is not true. . .God is not just the permarnent thing that is assumed to exist. . .The universe is NOT the human society and it must not function as one. . .God does not mean the creator alone to people, he answers prayers, performs miracles, saves people, loves people, etc. . .This is a very testable hypothesis. . .

striktlymi:

In summary...you don't know whether God exist or not...cool!!! Like I mentioned before, expressing an opinion about something is different from proving it. The fact that an individual chooses to make a God for himself does not in any way prove that there is no God..

It is not an opinion but a statement of fact. . .Every group have created their own god, even the god you worship is the god the jews created, his name is a hebrew name and he is the god of the jews or the god of israel. . .He was created by the ancient jews as a means of explanation and justification for many other things. . .According to them he told them to kill others and take their land that was flowing with milk and honey. . .He also fought along side them. . .The arabs have their own god called allah. ancient greeks had their own pantheon of gods which they created, same with the indians, they have their own gods. . .And created a religion called hinduism. . .All gods are man made show me a god that exist on its own independent of human creation or invention. .

I guess you did not see the point in my dance earlier? It was actually meant to point out to you that you do exactly the same thing that you accuse the religious of doing...I hold a belief that there is God...you hold the belief that there is no God...my belief that there is God is based on faith because there is no objective proof...your belief that there is no God is based on faith cause it also does not have an objective proof...

Again it does not take faith to show that all gods are man made and a human creation. . .Show me a god that exist on its own independent of human creation. . .Even the god you believe is was created by the ancient jews. . .We were told he once lived with them and fought along side them. . .In their many many mythical stories, which they invented and wrote down. . .No faith is required to show that all gods are man made. . .

You asked for a definition of God...here it is:

God is the first cause who jump-started the 'process' without himself being caused.

Ok. . .Can you show how such a first exist?. . .

All that we are experiencing today has some start-off point...I really do not mind if you guys choose to say that some force set the ball rolling...

Start of point means god?. . .God then means. answered prayers, miracles, loving relationship with humans, heaven, hell etc?. . .Hope you know that all these claims can be tested if they were true. . .

The bottom line is that something or someone started all this and that something or someone is who I call the first cause or simply put: God!!! If you want evidence then, you are the evidence you seek...unless you want to say that you do not exist then my evidence can be put in the thrash bin.

I am evidence that I exist, what I see around is evidence for the environment and NOT for god. . .If god exist then that hypothesis is a scientific hypothesis, it can be tested. . .

The above is still your opinion man and you have a right to it.

It is a statement of fact and not an opinion. . .

Deep Sight:

I spoke of ALL sounds. In other words you are living in a bubble. Everything you hear is either within the bubble or transmitted from without the bubble. So the issue is not deep or shallow space my friend. The issue is about everything you see, hear, feel, smell, touch. In short, everything you perceive.

Then maybe you should have used "all perceptions" rather than "all sounds".

Deep Sight:
For the purposes of this particular line of reasoning, it does not matter if God is physical or not. As I have said before, you are free to see it as physical, but its existence as the sum of the whole, the container or "box" in which the universe is, the womb in which the babies live and grow, cannot be denied.

Actually, it does matter whether or not God is physical. If it is physical, then it is a part of this universe and should in principle be detectable. Secondly, why not take the universe itself as being the physical God rather than going one step further and saying that the universe is within this physical God?

mazaje:

It is not an opinion but a statement of fact. . .Every group have created their own god, even the god you worship is the god the jews created, his name is a hebrew name and he is the god of the jews or the god of israel. . .He was created by the ancient jews as a means of explanation and justification for many other things. . .According to them he told them to kill others and take their land that was flowing with milk and honey. . .He also fought along side them. . .The arabs have their own god called allah. ancient greeks had their own pantheon of gods which they created, same with the indians, they have their own gods. . .And created a religion called hinduism. . .All gods are man made show me a god that exist on its own independent of human creation or invention. .

[i]The way people go about Atheism, it has become a man made religion which has at its very heart the worship of individual ego...[/i]you see how easy it is to express an opinion? Calling your opinion fact does not make it a fact.

mazaje:
Again it does not take faith to show that all gods are man made and a human creation. . .Show me a god that exist on its own independent of human creation. . .Even the god you believe is was created by the ancient jews. . .We were told he once lived with them and fought along side them. . .In their many many mythical stories, which they invented and wrote down. . .No faith is required to show that all gods are man made. . .

Another opinion!

mazaje:
Ok. . .Can you show how such a first exist?. . .

After you finish showing us how he does not exist.

mazaje:
Start of point means god?. . .God then means. answered prayers, miracles, loving relationship with humans, heaven, hell etc?. . .Hope you know that all these claims can be tested if they were true. . .

I have already demonstrated that the above is not the case. Something need not be able to be tested for it to be true.

mazaje:
I am evidence that I exist, what I see around is evidence for the environment and NOT for god. . .If god exist then that hypothesis is a scientific hypothesis, it can be tested. . .

I hear you! Can you tell us how you came to be?

mazaje:
It is a statement of fact and not an opinion. . .

Opinion man! Simply your opinion!!

striktlymi:

I do not believe there is anthing like God of the Christians, God of the Muslims, God of the pagans etc. I believe firmly that every religion refers to the same 'God' (the first cause) but their perception of this God defers.

Now to the ish of calling heaven, hell etc fantancies...the question still props up: How do you know for sure? At best this is your opinion on the matter.

Don't you think that if this first cause can suspend the Earth in space and created the universe such that the Universe understands one language (Mathematics), why then is it difficult to admit that there might be some other realities that might not be known to the human eye e.g Heaven or may be a hell?

For all we know, this first-cause god is just a dumb force, since you have failed to ascribe attributes to it other than its being the first cause. Even science doesn't deny that cause and effect relationships exist. the first-cause force is not very different from the the big bang theory. You have failed woefully to prove the existence of yaweh or allah (the god of heaven and earth).

Its not just an opinion. Its a fact. If you say that a place exists, tell me where its: give me the address or location in space or credible witnesses. Otherwise its mere fantasy!

Any so-called reality that cannot be perceived by the human senses or modern scientific methods and does not affect our lives are not realities - they are mere fantasy

striktlymi:

[i]The way people go about Atheism, it has become a man made religion which has at its very heart the worship of individual ego...[/i]you see how easy it is to express an opinion? Calling your opinion fact does not make it a fact.

The problem is that you can not even show that anything I have stated is wrong or false. . .Is your god not the invention of ancient jews and their superstitions?. . .What about the gods vishnu, thor and zeus?. . .

Another opinion!

Again you can't show how the statement is wrong in any way. .It doesn't take fate to know that your god was created or invented by the ancient jews, just as it doesn't take faith to know that allah is a creation of the ancient arabs or zeus the creation of the ancient greeks. . .

After you finish showing us how he does not exist.

You want me to prove your assetion for you?. . .You said a first cause exist and it is uncaused. .How do you know this?. . .saying something doesn't make it true, you will have to show it. . .Ok, I say you are lying about the existence of a first cause, can you show me that you are not?. . .

I have already demonstrated that the above is not the case. Something need not be able to be tested for it to be true.

For something to be true it must pass a threshold, god is as presented by theist is a testable hypothesis. . .Do your believe in a god that answwers prayers or performs miracles?. . .All these are testable hypothesis. . Its funny how theist keep pushing their god to the realm of the unknown. . .From the god that used to speak to humans and address them through public speech to the god that performs miracles, now god is just the creator of the universe alone. . .

I hear you! Can you tell us how you came to be?

My parents coupulated and i was formed. . .How does my existence mean or proof god?. . .Your existence proves evolution, no?. . .

Opinion man! Simply your opinion!!

Again, you can not show that the statement is false. . .I asked if you believe the bible is the word of god?. .

Striklymi doesnt know the difference between opinion and fact.


See what religion has done to the brain of my fellow nigerian?


Unfollowing before i get infected by such foolishness

striktlymi: Evening Kay,



Well Kay, a claim need not be proven to be true for it to require faith to uphold. In the context we are using it, faith is simply put: "a firm belief in something for which there is no proof".

Hence, when an individual says that there is no God but fails to show this objectively by way of proof then the individual necessarily uphold a belief for which there is no proof and as such that individual can have faith attributed to his claim.

Ordinarily an unproven statement is not necessarily backed by faith. Faith is a special foundation basis. It is not applied anyhow.

Now this is thinking critically...but you forget that the principle of causality is a name humans gave to an observed phenomena...you can say this principle is an idea that was developed over time as a consequence of the relationship that exists between two or more variables.

Thus, we really can't say the principle of causality was pre-existent because it started when this process was put in motion. From Newton's first law of motion, we can see that a body will continue to be in a state of rest until it is acted upon by some external force.

You knw God is just a name too. Newton's law still accounts for Causality, so to conceive a cause for causality is a paradox.

ijawkid:

What realities are you dealing with that theists aren't dealing with too??.......

We both know in REALITY or should I be saying that in the REAL world we all know that babies do not talk inside their mthers womb. Also like i said in my previous post in REALITY babies are born into various culturesthat speak differentlanguages & practice different religions but the chhild itself is born free from religion. That's REALITY

mazaje:
We can begin with the bible , if you want. . .is the bible the word of god?

^

Errm! Well, did you call me?

Did you say the bible is your middle name? erm No. I mean, what were you trying to say with the bible sef?

Am listening.

truthislight:

^

Errm! Well, did you call me?

Did you say the bible is your middle name? erm No. I mean, what were you trying to say with the bible sef?

Am listening.

Nope, the bible is your saw name. . .

truthislight:

^

Errm! Well, did you call me?

Did you say the bible is your middle name? erm No. I mean, what were you trying to say with the bible sef?

Am listening.

mazaje:

Nope, the bible is your saw name. . .

Is that all?

truthislight:

^

Errm! Well, did you call me?

Did you say the bible is your middle name? erm No. I mean, what were you trying to say with the bible sef?

Am listening.

mazaje:

the bible is your saw name. . .

Is that all? .

Kay 17:

This is untrue. Most cultures don't accept the view that a God is an uncaused being, rather he is an unequal being. And humans who are able to perform incredible feats are deemed divine.

Zoroasterianism despite being monotheist, accepts duality.

I dont have the slightest idea what this post means.

Kay 17:

Many materialists believe causal relationships merely shift forms of a permanent entity: Matter. It wld be illogical to conclude that these fellows believe in God.

At the most basic level of the idea advanced in the OP, such permanent matter would still be God.

However i take a different shift of things: because for me, it is obvious that matter cannot be permanent in the past: two things make this obvious: (1) The fact that matter is mutable means it cannot self exist, and (2) the reality of the Big B@ng.

mazaje:

That is not true. . .God is not just the permarnent thing that is assumed to exist. . .The universe is NOT the human society and it must not function as one. . .God does not mean the creator alone to people, he answers prayers, performs miracles, saves people, loves people, etc. . .This is a very testable hypothesis. . .

At its most intrinsic and basic level, that is indeed what the God idea is - that eternal thing that pre-exists and creates. This is agreed on by all theists. Details and qualifications are a matter of understanding and culture.

And logically, it could not be otherwise.

I might also add that this is particularly the case with reference to PURE theistic-atheistic discussions where the issue is the existence of God and not necessarily his idiosyncrasies.

Deep Sight:

At its most intrinsic and basic level, that is indeed what the God idea is - that eternal thing that pre-exists and creates. This is agreed on by all theists. Details and qualifications are a matter of understanding and culture.

And logically, it could not be otherwise.

I might also add that this is particularly the case with reference to PURE theistic-atheistic discussions where the issue is the existence of God and not necessarily his idiosyncrasies.

I am an atheist and yet am still opened to the possiblity of the universe having a creator or creators. . .What we don't know remains, unknown. . .If there is anything that will give us a full explanation of how the universe came about or what brought it about, science is what will do that and not the primitive religions. . .Man made gods and religions are all man made. . .That is my position. ..

turnstoner:

For all we know, this first-cause god is just a dumb force, since you have failed to ascribe attributes to it other than its being the first cause. Even science doesn't deny that cause and effect relationships exist. the first-cause force is not very different from the the big bang theory. You have failed woefully to prove the existence of yaweh or allah (the god of heaven and earth).

Its not just an opinion. Its a fact. If you say that a place exists, tell me where its: give me the address or location in space or credible witnesses. Otherwise its mere fantasy!

Any so-called reality that cannot be perceived by the human senses or modern scientific methods and does not affect our lives are not realities - they are mere fantasy

Your opinion! your right!!