mazaje:

You want me to prove your assetion for you?. . .You said a first cause exist and it is uncaused. .How do you know this?. . .saying something doesn't make it true, you will have to show it. . .Ok, I say you are lying about the existence of a first cause, can you show me that you are not?. . .

At least the above make some sense out of the lot.

Now apply it to yourself and the assertions you have made!

thehomer:

Actually, it does matter whether or not God is physical.

O no it doesn't.

If it is physical, then it is a part of this universe and should in principle be detectable.

Of course it is. Just the way the feeling, sound, etc of the mother is detectable by the babies in the womb: i.e - everything they perceive around them is the mother.

Secondly, why not take the universe itself as being the physical God

Yes of course, in this context it is!

Think of the universe as the physical body of the mother, whereas, such a mother still has a mind which is non-physical and is the core of her being and thinking.

rather than going one step further and saying that the universe is within this physical God?

We yet make the distinction because we know that matter cannot self exist and as such cannot be God. With reference to my statement above, where I wrote "Yes of course, in this context it is," i mean that with respect to the analogy in the OP: I.e - everything we see and perceive in this reality are the sounds and evidence of God - the super structure that emanates ultimately from God. However the reason we do not equate matter or the universe to God is the fact that these are mutable and cannot self exist as I have told you a zillion times: as such, these cannot be the necessary "permanent something", which, at all events, MUST exist.

And let me also say that I use the words "within", "box" and "container" only with allusion and deference to the analogy in the OP, which still flows and makes sense. This does not mean however that I strictly regard God as such please.

Logicboy03: Striklymi doesnt know the difference between opinion and fact.


See what religion has done to the brain of my fellow nigerian?


Unfollowing before i get infected by such foolishness

[size=20pt]STRAWMAN!!![/size]

mazaje:

I am an atheist and yet am still opened to the possiblity of the universe having a creator or creators. . .What we don't know remains, unknown. . .If there is anything that will give us a full explanation of how the universe came about or what brought it about, science is what will do that and not the primitive religions. . .Man made gods and religions are all man made. . .That is my position. ..

I have told you before that you are more agnostic than atheist.

Morning Kay,

Kay 17:

Ordinarily an unproven statement is not necessarily backed by faith. Faith is a special foundation basis. It is not applied anyhow.

The above is correct...indeed not every unproven statement is backed by faith but it becomes faith when the individual now has complete trust and confidence in what he holds to be true despite there being no evidence to back up this claim.

When some Atheists say God does not exist...this statement is said with certainty which implies trust and confidence in the claim, hence it becoming faith for the simple reason that it cannot be proven to be either true or false.

Kay 17:
You knw God is just a name too. Newton's law still accounts for Causality, so to conceive a cause for causality is a paradox.

Of-course God is a name given to this 'first cause'. I can choose to call him by another name which really does not undermine the fact that I refer to the same person (or thing).

Causality in itself is not substantive and it will be inappropriate to attribute a cause to this...the least we can say is that causality occurs only when there exist a relationship between one variable and another such that one variable is dependent on another...consider the function below:

y = f(x); where 'y' is the dependent variable and 'x' the independent variable.

Now, whatever 'y' will be is solely dependent on the independent variable 'x'...yes I know this example is a bit shallow but just work with me here...

On it's own 'y' is really not defined, or better still, 'y' has no meaning, until there exist a definition for 'x'. This relationship that exist between this two variables has been tagged a 'cause/effect relationship'...if this relationship is non-existent in our world for anything then there won't be any need for the term "causality", hence it would have been non-existent or probably rendered obsolete.

Causality will only come to play when this relationship exists and the start-off point for this relationship will go back to when the first cause began that process...in order words causality has its origin from the point the 'first cause' set in motion this 'pendulum'.

striktlymi:

At least the above make some sense out of the lot.

Now apply it to yourself and the assertions you have made!

All the assertions i made I provided evidence for them, yahweh is a god idea created by the ancient jews, zues the ancient greeks, sol the ancient roman god of war , ra the ancient egyptian sun god etc. . .Show me a god that that is not an idea created by humans. . . .

mazaje:

All the assertions i made I provided evidence for them, yahweh is a god idea created by the ancient jews, zues the ancient greeks, sol the ancient roman god of war , ra the ancient egyptian sun god etc. . .Show me a god that that is not an idea created by humans. . . .

Nah men...first assertion was that God does not exist and to this day you have not provided any proof to this...

Another assertion was that God is an idea created by man...you just went on to tell us the people Yahweh first revealed himself to after the fall of man and nothing else...this is an evidence to the question: 'who started the worship of yahweh' and not an evidence to your assertion of "Yahweh is a creation of man"...So Mazaje when I say you have no shred of evidence I say that with the capitals: NO!!!

striktlymi:

Nah men...first assertion was that God does not exist and to this day you have not provided any proof to this...

Another assertion was that God is an idea created by man...you just went on to tell us the people Yahweh first revealed himself to after the fall of man and nothing else...this is an evidence to the question: 'who started the worship of yahweh' and not an evidence to your assertion of "Yahweh is a creation of man"...So Mazaje when I say you have know shred of evidence I say that with the capitals: NO!!!

Yahweh revealed himself to a group of people or a group of people lied, made up stories and said that some god idea they created visited them? After all, Allah also revealed himself to Mohammed in a cave, no?. . .The good Shiver also revealed herself to the ancient hindus, no?. . .What about the god zeus? he also revealed himself to the ancient greeks, according to the ancient romans, the god sol fought their battles with them. . .He was with them we they conquered the jews and their god. . . .

what am i trying to say here, all i am trying to say is that the god idea is man made and exist only inform of stories written by men, that is why we have different cultures and society making different claims about different god ideas they invented. . .

The way yahweh revealed himself to the ancient jews is the same way xenu revealed himself to the founder of the scientology religion and took him to another planet. . .Go read it up in the divine book of scientology. . ..

mazaje:

Yahweh revealed himself to a group of people or a group of people lied, made up stories and said that some god idea they created visited them? After all, Allah also revealed himself to Mohammed in a cave, no?. . .The good Shiver also revealed herself to the ancient hindus, no?. . .What about the god zeus? he also revealed himself to the ancient greeks, according to the ancient romans, the god sol fought their battles with them. . .He was with them we they conquered the jews and their god. . . .

what am i trying to say here, all i am trying to say is that the god idea is man made and exist only inform of stories written by men, that is why we have different cultures and society making different claims about different god ideas they invented. . .

The way yahweh revealed himself to the ancient jews is the same way xenu revealed himself to the founder of the scientology religion and took him to another planet. . .God read it up in the divine book of scientology. . ..

You continue making assertions without proof...if you believe that they lied, how does that constitute proof?

That is your faith man not proof.

striktlymi:

You continue making assertions without proof...if you believe that they lied, how does that constitute proof?

That is your faith man not proof.

There is a pattern to it, they were all lying and creating things of of their own minds. . .Even the books they claim to have been inspired by divine revelation all contains outright falsehoods. . .The so called divine revelations i.e the bible, koran, verders, egyptian book of the dead etc all contains outright lies and falsehoods. . .They are all the ideas and stories written by men. . .

mazaje:

There is a pattern to it, they were all lying and creating things of of their own minds. . .Even the books they claim to have been inspired by divine revelation all contains outright falsehoods. . .The so called divine revelations i.e the bible, koran, verders, egyptian book of the dead etc all contains outright lies and falsehoods. . .They are all the ideas and stories written by men. . .

Your opinion again...

I have read a number of write-ups and posts here on nairaland about the so-called contradictions, lies etc of sacred scriptures and after reviewing their claims I can't but wonder how what I can profer simple answers to despite not being a theologian can't be deciphered by those who lay these accusations.

striktlymi:

Your opinion again...

I have read a number of write-ups and posts here on nairaland about the so-called contradictions, lies etc of sacred scriptures and after reviewing their claims I can't but wonder how what I can profer simple answers to despite not being a theologian can't be deciphered by those who lay these accusations.

Fact, a lot of things in the bible are NOT historical. . .Historians and archaeologist have pointed that out many many times, christian apologist then claim it is an allegory. . .We can even begin with the creation account in genesis, even leading christian apologist know that it is false and have now resulted to saying that it is an allegory. . .it was actually never written as an allegory. . .

mazaje:

Fact, a lot of things in the bible are NOT historical. . .Historians and archaeologist have pointed that out many many times, christian apologist then claim it is an allegory. . .We can even begin with the creation account in genesis, even leading christian apologist know that it is false and have now resulted to saying that it is an allegory. . .it was actually never written as an allegory. . .

I would have spared some time to teach you a bit about Sacred scriptures and how to approach it if I'd thought it would help but guy I no get that power cause it would only lead to more arguments that are struggling to find the point.

striktlymi:

I would have spared some time to teach you a bit about Sacred scriptures and how to approach it if I'd thought it would help but guy I no get that power cause it would only lead to more arguments that are struggling to find the point.

LOL!. . .Nothing do you my man. . .

mazaje:

LOL!. . .Nothing do you my man. . .

Lol!!! Nothing do you guy...

Deep Sight:

O no it doesn't.

The statements you made show that it does matter.

Deep Sight:
Of course it is. Just the way the feeling, sound, etc of the mother is detectable by the babies in the womb: i.e - everything they perceive around them is the mother.

So God is detectable. Now can you tell me what you detected that made you decide that it was a God?

Deep Sight:
Yes of course, in this context it is!

Think of the universe as the physical body of the mother, whereas, such a mother still has a mind which is non-physical and is the core of her being and thinking.

I find it very difficult to see this supposedly analogous relationship between the universe and a person.

Deep Sight:
We yet make the distinction because we know that matter cannot self exist and as such cannot be God. With reference to my statement above, where I wrote "Yes of course, in this context it is," i mean that with respect to the analogy in the OP: I.e - everything we see and perceive in this reality are the sounds and evidence of God - the super structure that emanates ultimately from God. However the reason we do not equate matter or the universe to God is the fact that these are mutable and cannot self exist as I have told you a zillion times: as such, these cannot be the necessary "permanent something", which, at all events, MUST exist.

And let me also say that I use the words "within", "box" and "container" only with allusion and deference to the analogy in the OP, which still flows and makes sense. This does not mean however that I strictly regard God as such please.

You say everything is evidence of a God which is physical yet is at the same time non-physical?

So what exactly do you regard God as? You've said it is physical and detectable. If everything is evidence of your God, then nothing is evidence of your God.

mazaje:

Yahweh revealed himself to a group of people or a group of people lied, made up stories and said that some god idea they created visited them?
.

Actually, no one forces you to belief this "lie", so, why so worked up?

mazaje:

After all, Allah also revealed himself to Mohammed in a cave, no?
.

Yes he did, and that is not under contention here.

Are you not aware that the bible says "there are many gods"?

mazaje:

. .The good Shiver also revealed herself to the ancient hindus, no?
.

yes, there are many gods, even humans are called gods in the bible, how much more Demons? Yes, they are gods, whats your issue here sef?

mazaje:

. .What about the god zeus? he also revealed himself to the ancient greeks,
.

lol, your problem is big, see, any entity that receives worship is a god. Lol.

mazaje:

according to the ancient romans, the god sol fought their battles with them. . .He was with them we they conquered the jews and their god. . . ..

am lost, what is your argument? It is either you accept their god or you dont, no big deal men!

mazaje:

what am i trying to say here, all i am trying to say is that the god idea is man made and exist only inform of stories written by men,
.

ok.
to an atheist that wants to feel happy yes, in your mind also, it was all stories.

mazaje:

that is why we have different cultures and society making different claims about different god ideas they invented. . .
.

to you there is no supernatural, but that does not means there is none. You can "belief" in whatever that makes you Feel funky, it is a free world.

mazaje:

The way Yahweh revealed himself to the ancient jews is the same way xenu revealed himself to the founder of the scientology religion and took him to another planet.
.

who is arguing that ^ with you sef? Is there a gun held to your head? Lol.

You seem to be allowing your own "believes" to crash with that of others, please guy, hold own to yours o!(dont let their regae come spoil your jazz o!). lol. Is your own belief(atheism) threaten? Pls, dont panic.
(every thing under alarm no need for control) lol.

You are a gallant soldier men!

mazaje:

. .Go read it up in the divine book of scientology. . ..

But there are many gods, they are free to have their own god, no?

Men, cool down, dont panic.

(lol. This atheist kid is on overdrive)

why do you let a "none" existing God to get to you this much?

*Digressing*

when you see your beautiful babe(hoping and having faith that you are not gay) (wife)

well rounded, in front and back side, her shapely and chisel legs and face, lovely men,
and she makes your heart pound vigorously and gives you excitement and joy to behold, matchable vir.gina to your pe.nise and the resultant excitement and ecstasy: Do you always imagined she came about by chance?

Lol. Seriously, do you? .

Ok, you know what, take another look, this time sloooowly, ask your self some questions(let your brain work) then come back and tell me if you still "belief" she came by chance.

Take note, she will carry your baby in the future(if you can i mean), is that not wonderful?

Do you think that "chance" arranged all that?

Men, you are not a "fool" you know! give a wise answer.

Just let your brain work.
Cheers men.

Peace.

mazaje:

There is a pattern to it, they were all lying and creating things of of their own minds. . .Even the books they claim to have been inspired by divine revelation all contains outright falsehoods. . .The so called divine revelations i.e the bible,

Ah!

You again?

This time dont west my time.

mazaje:
Even the book they claim to have been inspired by divine revelation all contains outright falsehoods. . .The so called divine revelations i.e the bible,

Ok, do well this time and dont struggle.

Dont exposed your ignorance.

Dont tell lies.

Now, start proving your claims that the bible "contain outright FALSE hood".

Please do.

Am waiting.

^^^
BRB.. this should be interesting

thehomer:

The statements you made show that it does matter.



So God is detectable. Now can you tell me what you detected that made you decide that it was a God?



I find it very difficult to see this supposedly analogous relationship between the universe and a person.



You say everything is evidence of a God which is physical yet is at the same time non-physical?

So what exactly do you regard God as? You've said it is physical and detectable. If everything is evidence of your God, then nothing is evidence of your God.

In relation to the example given about what can be known about that which is external to our present reality.

truthislight:

Ah!

You again?

This time dont west my time.



Ok, do well this time and dont struggle.

Dont exposed your ignorance.

Dont tell lies.

Now, start proving your claims that the bible "contain outright FALSE hood".

Please do.

Am waiting.

We can start on the very first page, the 7 day creation account is VERY false, the universe did NOT come about the way the bible said it was created in 7 days by Yahweh. . .According to the bible the earth was in existence with water in it before all the stars were created, it says the earth was created before the sun, it also says the sun and the moon were created on the same day. . .It says stars were being created to give light unto the earth. . .All these are VERY false. The sun and its gravitational force was actually what lead to the creation of the earth and all the other planets. . .Without the sun there would have been nothing in our solar system. . .The sun came first before every other thing in our solar system and it is what keeps the solar system together. . .The earth did NOT come before the sun. . .

Now we have very powerful telescopes like the Hubble space telescopes and the Kepler space telescopes, these space observatories have shown us how planets from other distant solar systems were created, the sun(star) always comes first, usually from a supernova, then the planets form afterward, its actually the sun's(star) gravitational pull on the surrounding dust and debris that creates the planets, these are things that can be seen. . .Many of the stars out there came into existence long before our own sun came into existence because many of them are older than our own sun which is also a star, unlike the bible that falsely states that the earth was created before the stars and the stars were created to give light to the earth, the stars are also suns and many have earth like planets revolving round them, and they number in trillions of billions and were not created to give light to the earth, just like the earth was not created to give light to any other earth like plant in our galaxy take the earth away and the universe will still remain the way it is. . .Even the best christian apologist have now relegated the genesis creation account into the realm of mythology, they now regard at as an allegory, because of observable evidence, when the genesis myth was written it was never written as an allegory. . .The first page of the bible begins with a false creation account that was been shown to be false by observable evidence, even christian apologist agree and say the genesis creation account is an allegory. . .

@mazaje
why do you bother yourself with this people? even the people that dash them the religion know better!

nnofaith: @mazaje
why do you bother yourself with this people? even the people that dash them the religion know better!

All this young sons...

#No body know which one be new id or which one be 're-incarnated' id

nnofaith: @mazaje
why do you bother yourself with this people? even the people that dash them the religion know better!

Some more here http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread689074/pg1

Plants existed before the Sun and Moon (Genesis 1:11-16)

The Earth is created before the Sun (Genesis 1)
...actually, to just shorten this: The order of events in Genesis 1 is wrong

The Sun and Moon are set in a physical firmament above the Earth (Genesis 1:16-17)

The Moon is a/produces light (Genesis 1:16, Isaiah 13:10)

Global flood (Genesis..mentioned several other times in later books)

Humanity at a time of civilization which would have enabled large scale construction projects shared a single language (Genesis 11)

Diverse language happened instantly rather than gradually (Genesis 11)

The Hebrew population in Egypt somehow goes from dozens to millions in a few hundred years. (Exodus)

Hares and coneys are ruminants (Leviticus 11:5-6)

God's cure for lepers (Leviticus 14:2-52)

Snakebites are cured by a brass serpent on a pole (Numbers 21:

Giants (way too many passages Numbers, Deuteronomy, 2 Samuel, Amos)

Dragons (Deuteronomy 32:33, Psalms 148:7)

The Sun apparently moves and can be made to stand still so that people can sneak attack others at night (Joshua 10:12-13)

The Earth has pillars...I guess instead of being hung it's placed.(1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6,26:11,38:4-6...actually, a lot of places)

Pi = 3(1 Kings 7:23, 2 Chronicles 4:2)

Either the Earth stopped rotating and moved backward a bit or the Sun moved backward on its own...well, we know what the Bible says about the relationship between the two. (2 Kings 20:11)

The Earth doesn't move.(1 Chronicles 16:30, Job 38:4-6, Psalms 93:1, 96:10...and a lot of other places where it mentions that the Earth is set on foundations)

People think in their heart (Esther 6:6, Isaiah 10:7)

Ostriches are apparently entirely inattentive parents (Job 39:13-16)

The Sun moves around the Earth (Psalms 19:4-6)

Snails melt (Psalms 58:

The Earth has four corners (Isaiah 11:12, Ezekial 7:2)

Lots of fantastical creatures used to exist including satyrs, cockatrices, fiery flying serpents, etc (Isaiah)

The Earth is definitively flat (Daniel 4:10-11, 20)

The stars are tiny objects that can fall out of the sky and be stomped upon (Daniel 8:10)

Deep Sight:

At the most basic level of the idea advanced in the OP, such permanent matter would still be God.

However i take a different shift of things: because for me, it is obvious that matter cannot be permanent in the past: two things make this obvious: (1) The fact that matter is mutable means it cannot self exist, and (2) the reality of the Big B@ng.

For my first post, I was referring to Aristole's saying that we should treat equals as equals and unequal as unequals. That it is the struggle and feat by individuals that endows em as Gods. Moreover the creation of the universe is just another feat.

As to the matter over materialists, relegating God to an unidentifiable primordial substance. Platonists and Pantheists all acknowledge the permanence of existence and it is identified as the purest form of existence. Deepsight you have to go further, beyond uncertainty.

striktlymi:

All this young sons...

#No body know which one be new id or which one be 're-incarnated' id

Yeah!

As in Striktlymi vs Muskeeto

Deep Sight:

In relation to the example given about what can be known about that which is external to our present reality.

And what evidence shows that there is something that is external to our present reality?

v

mazaje:

We can start on the very first page, the 7 day creation account is VERY false, the universe did NOT come about the way the bible said it was created in 7 days by Yahweh. . .According to the bible the earth was in existence with water in it before all the stars were created, it says the earth was created before the sun, it also says the sun and the moon were created on the same day. . .It says stars were being created to give light unto the earth. . .All these are VERY false. The sun and its gravitational force was actually what lead to the creation of the earth and all the other planets. . .Without the sun there would have been nothing in our solar system. . .The sun came first before every other thing in our solar system and it is what keeps the solar system together. . .The earth did NOT come before the sun. . .

Now we have very powerful telescopes like the Hubble space telescopes and the Kepler space telescopes, these space observatories have shown us how planets from other distant solar systems were created, the sun(star) always comes first, usually from a supernova, then the planets form afterward, its actually the sun's(star) gravitational pull on the surrounding dust and debris that creates the planets, these are things that can be seen. . .Many of the stars out there came into existence long before our own sun came into existence because many of them are older than our own sun which is also a star, unlike the bible that falsely states that the earth was created before the stars and the stars were created to give light to the earth, the stars are also suns and many have earth like planets revolving round them, and they number in trillions of billions and were not created to give light to the earth, just like the earth was not created to give light to any other earth like plant in our galaxy take the earth away and the universe will still remain the way it is. . .Even the best christian apologist have now relegated the genesis creation account into the realm of mythology, they now regard at as an allegory, because of observable evidence, when the genesis myth was written it was never written as an allegory. . .The first page of the bible begins with a false creation account that was been shown to be false by observable evidence, even christian apologist agree and say the genesis creation account is an allegory. . .

I dont know where you get your information from(maybe you have to verify the more).

When i read the bible, the first thing i see is this :

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Genesis 1:1).
...........................................................

^
what i understand by that is the creation of earth and the expanse above (heaven) it.

Like the bible says the "birds of the heavens", do this birds fly in outter space? No.


I dont know why you wish to belief that an account of the creation to Jews 4k years ago was talking about outter space instead of their known evironment. curious

So you believe that all the Jews of that time had and were educated on knowledge of the outter space right?

Lol.

When you come round, you can Rephrase or ask me question with scripture specific quotes of the falsity of the bible.

*though the bible is not a science text book, when it touches on science it is spot on*

this is a time the bible was talking about outter space at Job 38:31-33.

It was in the form of a question to Job as to things he or humans of that time did not know.(talking about Constellations and asking if they can be brought into the earth).

Ciao.

truthislight:

I dont know where you get your information from(maybe you have to verify the more).

When i read the bible, the first thing i see is this :

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Genesis 1:1).
...........................................................

You see this and you also see a detailed 7 days account of creation, by the way the earth and the universe(assuming the heavens means the universe) where NOT created at the same time, many stars and galaxies came into existence before our own sun, which came before our own planet. . .No heaven and earth were created any were together in any begining. . .It is false. . .

what i understand by that is the creation of earth and the expands above (heaven) it.

Like the bible says the "birds of the heavens", do this birds fly in outter space? No.

Only that the bible talks about how god created "everything", it talks about the creation of the sun, stars and everyhing. . .And it says the earth was created before them. . .

I dont know why you wish to belief that an account of the creation to Jews 4k years ago was talking about outter space instead of their known evironment. curious

What is this drivel?. . .Didn't you see where they said their god created the sun and stars at the same time, and where they also said the earth was in existence before the sun and stars?. . .

So you believe that all the Jews of that time had and were educated on knowledge of the outter space right?

Lol.

They weren't educated about outer space that is why they got everything wrong. . .You don't believe they were educated about outer space yet you believe they are educated to know what happens to you when you die, eh?. . .If the bible is wrong on things that we know, like history and science, why then should any one trust it on things we do not know, things like what happens after death?. . .

When you come round, you can Rephrase or ask me question with scripture specific quotes of the falsity of the bible.

*though the bible is not a science text book, when it touches on science it is spot on*

this is a time the bible was talking about outter space at Job 38:31-33.

It was in the form of a question to Job as to things he or humans of that time did not know.(talking about Constellations and asking if they can be brought into the earth).

Ciao.

What is this drivel?. . .Is it not the same bible that talks about the sun moving round the earth?. . .is it not the same bible that talks about stars falling into the earth?. . .What exactly are you talking about?. . .The bible tried to run into the fleid of astronomy and it falied completely, so much so that you your self have aknowledged. . .The only thing is that you are trying to say the bible does not mean what it says, another dubious tactics you guys use all the time. . .By the way the ancient greeks knew much more about the constellations (and wrote about them) than the ancient jews. . .

truthislight:

I dont know where you get your information from(maybe you have to verify the more).

When i read the bible, the first thing i see is this :

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Genesis 1:1).
...........................................................

^
what i understand by that is the creation of earth and the expands above (heaven) it.

Like the bible says the "birds of the heavens", do this birds fly in outter space? No.


I dont know why you wish to belief that an account of the creation to Jews 4k years ago was talking about outter space instead of their known evironment. curious

So you believe that all the Jews of that time had and were educated on knowledge of the outter space right?

Lol.

When you come round, you can Rephrase or ask me question with scripture specific quotes of the falsity of the bible.

*though the bible is not a science text book, when it touches on science it is spot on*

this is a time the bible was talking about outter space at Job 38:31-33.

It was in the form of a question to Job as to things he or humans of that time did not know.(talking about Constellations and asking if they can be brought into the earth).

Ciao.

I like that question up there. In his post i think he mentioned "Christian apologists" ... Lol.


The more many try to disprove Genesis 1:1, the more they prove that the heaven and the earth can't be the products of one undirected/unguided explosion, but were carefully designed.

Freksy:

I like that question up there. In his post i think he mentioned "Christian apologists" ... Lol.


The more many try to disprove Genesis 1:1, the more they prove that the heaven and the earth can't be the products of one undirected/unguided explosion, but were carefully designed.

Genesis 1.1 is actually not supported by observable evidence. . .Are you trying to say that the earth was created at the begining of the universe?. . .The universe is 13 billion years old while the earth is just 4 billion years old, how were the two created together in the begining?. . .