they are reproduced here again and again:

[size=18pt]- CAN YOU DEFINE PENANCE WITHOUT HIDING UNDER THE SKIRTS OF REPENTANCE?
- WHERE IS MARY REFERED TO AS THE ARK OF THE COVENANT?
- WHERE IS PURGATORY IN THE BIBLE?
- WHERE IN THE BIBLE ARE YOUR PRIESTS GIVEN THE LICENSE TO HEAR CONFESSIONS OF SINS AND TO FORGIVE THEM?
- DO WE STILL PAY FOR SIN AFTER DEATH?
- WHAT IF VICARIUS FILLI DEI[/size]?

davidylan:

they are reproduced here again and again:

- CAN YOU DEFINE PENANCE WITHOUT HIDING UNDER THE SKIRTS OF REPENTANCE?
- WHERE IS MARY REFERED TO AS THE ARK OF THE COVENANT?
- WHERE IS PURGATORY IN THE BIBLE?
- WHERE IN THE BIBLE ARE YOUR PRIESTS GIVEN THE LICENSE TO HEAR CONFESSIONS OF SINS AND TO FORGIVE THEM?
- DO WE STILL PAY FOR SIN AFTER DEATH?
- WHAT IF VICARIUS FILLI DEI?

Pastor John Hagee knows better now. Perhaps you should ask him to share some of his new-found wisdom with you. See ==> https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-146430.0.html

I am re-posting this =>

I was once told that, during a church service, Pastor Adeboye told his congregation that he had a vision from God. In that vision, it was revealed to him that, if rapture was to occur, only 7 of them in that church service would make it to heaven.
This got me thinking. How could it be that a large majority of his church congregation, who claim CONFESS DIRECTLY TO GOD, were NOT acceptable to God?. So much for bible reading and cramming.

where again ma'am are the answers to the 6 questions i asked earlier? Dodging as usual while pretending to be asking questions?

Oh ye of little patience, did it ever occur to you that I have to post and then go back several pages to quote you and then come and modify?

But I will say this again, because I went through and answered all your questions in great detail, but because of your anger and impatience you skipped it all only to come back asking the same questions.
Tell me why I should even bother with you when you're not willing to read what I write?

But Ihave patience, and I will ask that if you want we can tackle each question you have one by one until you have received the true answer.

If there's anything you should know about me on this board is that I don't dodge.

Looking at the answer given to you and seeing that it is not the answer you want and then shaking your head saying "No that is not it" won't get you far.

The Bible says alot about he who does not like reproof.

Skipping the answers I gave you will get us no where.
So I gave you another option of giving the interpretations of every verse that I have presented to you, you claimed that you would but didn't instead you continued in your usual rant. I am still waiting for the interpretations.

I think it will be best if you give the answers. Trust me you will answer it yourself. Either that or you show that you really are not looking for answers, but criticism of the Catholic Church

They are NOT rites, its like saying salvation is a rite, its like saying Christ's crucifiction on the cross was a rite.
This is how the dictionary defines a rite - a prescribed form or manner governing the words or actions for a ceremony

Hmm and here I am thinking that in baptism, you actually get yourself prepared and that the words "I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are used and then the person is dipped into the water.

I wonder won't that be called words of a rite or actions of a rite and won't baptism be a ceremony.

There is a prescribed form or manner governing baptism. You are baptised "in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit" and then you are dipped into the water. That is done with everyone, that is the manner in which baptism is done.

And it is not from man but from God himself. Those are the words of Christ himself, and that is the manner in which John the Baptist baptised.

Don't go quoting words out of context be careful not to loose your grip on God, because dear in your quest you are doing just that. You have started citing God's words to go against God's words and you are being cautioned, if you are Christian you should know better than to go abusing the word of God.

One at a time pls, i'm no machine.

imhotep:

Pastor John Hagee knows better now. Perhaps you should ask him to share some of his new-found wisdom with you. See ==> https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-146430.0.html

Pastor Hagee is your typical politician. Christ was not afraid to speak against the ruling establishment even if it meant His eventual crucifiction by those who proclaimed themselves fierce custodians of the laws of Moses.

Again like i always like to ask - what is new? Ecclesiastes 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

imhotep:

I am re-posting this =>

I was once told that, during a church service, Pastor Adeboye told his congregation that he had a vision from God. In that vision, it was revealed to him that, if rapture was to occur, only 7 of them in that church service would make it to heaven.
This got me thinking. How could it be that a large majority of his church congregation, who claim CONFESS DIRECTLY TO GOD, were NOT acceptable to God?. So much for bible reading and cramming.

Again what is new? Christ had over 70 disciples when He sent them out and devils bowed down to them . . . at His crucifiction even Peter had denied Him thrice.

davidylan:

One at a time please, i'm no machine.

LOL.

davidylan:

Pastor Hagee is your typical politician. Christ was not afraid to speak against the ruling establishment even if it meant His eventual crucifiction by those who proclaimed themselves fierce custodians of the laws of Moses.

But Pastor Hagee just realized THE TRUTH. Learn from him.

davidylan:

Again like i always like to ask - what is new? Ecclesiastes 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

Again what is new? Christ had over 70 disciples when He sent them out and devils bowed down to them . . . at His crucifiction even Peter had denied Him thrice.

How could it be that a[b] large majority of his [Adeboye's] church congregation, who claim CONFESS DIRECTLY TO GOD,[/b] were NOT acceptable to God?.

~Lady~:

I think it will be best if you give the answers. Trust me you will answer it yourself. Either that or you show that you really are not looking for answers, but criticism of the Catholic Church

Perhaps you want to give answers to the questions you ask me then. This is a clever muslim tactic.

~Lady~:

Hmm and here I am thinking that in baptism, you actually get yourself prepared and that the words "I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are used and then the person is dipped into the water.
I wonder won't that be called words of a rite or actions of a rite and won't baptism be a ceremony.

Christ's cross was prepared, His captors took Him to all the necessary authorities before He was crucified, He was scourged, railed at, spat at - those are all rites?

Salvation requires that you believe in your heart, confess with your mouth - it is also a rite?

Dear, Baptism is NO ceremony. Read the book of acts . . . have you read Phillips baptism of the Eunuch on the road to damascus?
What preparation did they need? I'll remind you again - Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
  37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
  38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Even Phillip wasnt thinking of baptism, they didnt need any special preparation . . . all that was required was water and a redeemed soul!

~Lady~:

There is a prescribed form or manner governing baptism. You are baptised "in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit" and then you are dipped into the water. That is done with everyone, that is the manner in which baptism is done.

Is salvation also a rite?

~Lady~:

And it is not from man but from God himself. Those are the words of Christ himself, and that is the manner in which John the Baptist baptised.

Don't go quoting words out of context be careful not to loose your grip on God, because dear in your quest you are doing just that. You have started citing God's words to go against God's words and you are being cautioned, if you are Christian you should know better than to go abusing the word of God.

You dont even have a grip to start with and u're busy admonishing others not to lose theirs. Sorry to say.

Do you know that there are actually 2 TWO baptisms? Pls read the book of acts.

imhotep:

But Pastor Hagee just realized THE TRUTH. Learn from him.

the truth for political purposes sure.

imhotep:

How could it be that a[b] large majority of his [Adeboye's] church congregation, who claim CONFESS DIRECTLY TO GOD,[/b] were NOT acceptable to God?.

Out of over 70 disciples only 11 were left on the day of crucifiction. Perhaps you can direct that question to Christ Himself.
Many of those 70 rejoiced that devils were subject to them, Judas Iscariot was one of those directly called by Christ . . . what has been is now and what is now has been and God requires the past.

davidylan:

the truth for political purposes sure.

This is your personal opinion. You are not in the man's mind.

davidylan:

Out of over 70 disciples only 11 were left on the day of crucifiction. Perhaps you can direct that question to Christ Himself.

Artful dodging again.


Let me re-present the scenario =>

-> a large church population that Adeboye regularly preaches to
-> everyone reads and re-reads the bible
-> everyone claims to confess DIRECTLY TO GOD. Since this is 'biblical'
-> only 7 are eligible for rapture.

Exactly who is deceiving who in that church

imhotep:

This is your personal opinion. You are not in the man's mind.

very true.

imhotep:

Artful dodging again.


Let me re-present the scenario =>

-> a large church population that Adeboye regularly preaches to
-> everyone reads and re-reads the bible
-> everyone claims to confess DIRECTLY TO GOD. Since this is 'biblical'
-> only 7 are eligible for rapture.

Exactly who is deceiving who in that church

This is not artful dodging, excuse me but you're being very pedantic and a hypocrite.

Let me represent the scenario again for blind bats like you:

-> a large congregation that Christ regularly preaches to - Luke 10:1 After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

-> everyone one of them heard the sermon on the mount, the many parables, the many prophecies

-> everyone of them claimed to have the devils subject to them - Luke 10:17[b]And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us[/b] through thy name.

-> only 11 made it to the garden of gethsemane

I ask again - what is new?

@Davidylan

Surah 3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
 Nazzala AAalayka alkitaba bialhaqqimusaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi waanzala alttawratawaal-injeela

I read the above but did not see where God sent the BIBLE? So you can see that you happened to be the fool! and greatest liar I have debated with.
 

Thou fool, read the above and shut up!
Is the torah and gospel the same as we now have in the bible or are you still looking for urs? If its not then WHY are you seeking the comforter in those pages thou son of belial?

Firstly, you need to seek forgiveness for calling someone a fool despite the fact that you are being brainwashed and love arguing blindly.

Mathew 5:21-23 - You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, "Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment. But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother' Raca' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, "You fool!" will be in danger of the fire of hell.


This is your statement:

what a foolish man. Did you not say the bible allah sent was lost and the one we had was a corruption? Now you understand them better than us?

I asked you to provide me where I said so but all you could do was to exposed your ignorance further.

davidylan:

very true.

This is not artful dodging, excuse me but you're being very pendantic and a hypocrite.

Let me represent the scenario again for blind bats like you:

-> a large congregation that Christ regularly preaches to - Luke 10:1 After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

-> everyone one of them heard the sermon on the mount, the many parables, the many prophecies

-> everyone of them claimed to have the devils subject to them - Luke 10:17[b]And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us[/b] through thy name.

-> only 11 made it to the garden of gethsemane

Luke 8:10 ==> And He [Jesus] said [to the 12 disciples], “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that ‘ Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand

I ask again - what is new?

Newness/oldness is not the issue here.

How could it be that a large majority of his [Adeboye's] church congregation, who claim CONFESS DIRECTLY TO GOD, were NOT acceptable to God?.

babs787, is there no longer a thread specifically for muslims? Is it so boring you just cant help but peep in here?

imhotep:

Luke 8:10 ==> And He [Jesus] said [to the 12 disciples], “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that ‘ Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand

What happened to Judas Iscariot? To him it was given too no?

imhotep:

How could it be that a large majority of his [Adeboye's] church congregation, who claim CONFESS DIRECTLY TO GOD, were NOT acceptable to God?.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

It was prophesied 2000 yrs ago . . . again i ask, what is new?

Perhaps you want to give answers to the questions you ask me then. This is a clever muslim tactic.

Lol at your insecurity. I can definitely answer the questions that I ask you.

Christ's cross was prepared, His captors took Him to all the necessary authorities before He was crucified, He was scourged, railed at, spat at - those are all rites?

Well let's see, since Christ wasn't the only one crucified and not the first and there was a systematic way of doing it, then yes it is also a rite.
I am going by your definition of rite  -  prescribed words or manner in which something is done right?

Well since some crucifixion were not in the form of X but in the form of the Cross as we know it, then yes it is a manner in which it was done and so was the burial of Christ. It was in the manner done in those days by the Jews and it also had to be done before the sabbathh.

Salvation requires that you believe in your heart, confess with your mouth - it is also a rite?

Well let's see, since to receive salvation you have to confess your sins, get baptised, and walk in the footsteps of Christ, then yes it would be a rite.

Dear, Baptism is NO ceremony. Read the book of acts . . . have you read Phillips baptism of the Eunuch on the road to damascus?
What preparation did they need? I'll remind you again - Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
   37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
   38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Even Phillip wasnt thinking of baptism, they didnt need any special preparation . . . all that was required was water and a redeemed soul!

Yet he had to baptise in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and he had to dip the eunuch in water so it still counts as a rite.

Do you know that there are actually 2 TWO baptisms? Please read the book of acts.

Ah see, in order to receive slavation you have to get baptised twice. It is a rite, all these are according to your definition

This is the definition of a rite

a formal or ceremonial act or procedure prescribed or customary in religious or other solemn use: rites of baptism; sacrificial rites.

It doesn't have to be in a ceremony but it has to be a prescribed or customary act.

~Lady~:

Well let's see, since Christ wasn't the only one crucified and not the first and there was a systematic way of doing it, then yes it is also a rite.
I am going by your definition of rite  -  prescribed words or manner in which something is done right?

Wow . . . the crucifiction was a rite?  they thrust a spear in His side such that water and blood gushed out, they placed a crown of thorns on His head and cast lots over His clothes - - they did this to EVERY other crucified thief? 

~Lady~:

Well let's see, since to receive salvation you have to confess your sins, get baptised, and walk in the footsteps of Christ, then yes it would be a rite.

Nope, salvation isnt a rite.

~Lady~:

Yet he had to baptise in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and he had to dip the eunuch in water so it still counts as a rite.

We pray in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, is prayer a rite?

~Lady~:

Ah see, in order to receive slavation you have to get baptised twice. It is a rite, all these are according to your definition

1. Nope, you can be saved without baptism . . . Lazarus was saved, the thief on the cross was saved . . .
2. Its not a prescription- there is a baptism of water (that of John) and a baptism of the Holy Spirit (fire). No prescriptions, no rite. The Eunuch was baptised in water only.

~Lady~:

This is the definition of a rite

a formal or ceremonial act or procedure prescribed or customary in religious or other solemn use: rites of baptism; sacrificial rites.

It doesn't have to be in a ceremony but it has to be a prescribed or customary act.

That is your own personal oppinion, baptism and salvation are not rites. Was the Eunuch's baptism a formal ceremony? Whom did he invite? Read the baptism of the Eunuch again . . . Philip wasnt thinking of baptising him, it took the understanding, the eagerness of the man himself to take in all that Philip had told to him to ask to be baptised. It was Philip guiding him through an elaborate celebration, rather it was a heart yearning after God who thirsted after those things that would make him accepted of the Father.

Chapter 60 CONCERNING HELL(2)

Hell is one, and is contrary to paradise, as winter is contrary to summer, and cold to heat. Therefore, he who would describe the misery of hell must have seen the paradise of God's delights. O place accursed by God's justice for the malediction of the faithless and reprobate, of which Job, the friend of God, said: There is no order there, but everlasting fear! And Isaiah the prophet, against the reprobate, says: Their flame shall not be quenched nor their worm die.

And David our father, weeping said: Then lightning and bolts and brimstone and great tempest shall rain upon them." O miserable sinners, how loathsome delicate meats, costly raiment, soft couches, and [the] concord of sweet song shall seem to them! How sick shall raging hunger, burning flames, scorching cinders, and cruel torments with bitter weeping make them!"

And then Jesus uttered a lamentable groan, saying: "Truly, it is better never to have been formed than to suffer such cruel torments, for imagine a man suffering torments in every part of his body, who has no one to show him compassion, but is mocked by everyone; tell me, would not this be great pain?" The disciples answered: "The greatest."

Then Jesus said: "This is a delight [in comparison] to hell. For I tell you in truth, that if God should place in one balance all the pain which all men have suffered in this world and shall suffer till the Day of Judgment, and in the other [balance] one single hour of the pain of hell, the reprobates would without doubt choose the worldly tribulations, for the worldly [tribulations] come from the hand of man, but the others from the hand of devils, who are utterly without compassion.

O what cruel fire they shall give to miserable sinners! O what bitter cold, which yet shall not temper their flames! What gnashing of teeth and sobbing and weeping! For the Jordan has less water than the tears which shall flow from their eyes every moment. Their tongues shall curse all created things, with their. father and mother, and their Creator, who is blessed for ever."

Chapter 61 EXAMPLE OF THE MERCHANT

Having said this, Jesus washed himself, with his disciples, according to the Law of God written in the Book of Moses; and then they prayed. And the disciples, seeing [Jesus] sad did not speak at all to him that day, but each stood terror-struck at his words. Then Jesus, opening his mouth after the evening [prayer], said: * "What father of a family, if he knew that a thief meant to break into his house, would sleep? None surely; for he would watch and stand prepared to slay the thief. Do you not know then that Satan is as a roaring lion that goes about seeking whom he may devour. Thus he seeks to make man sin. Truly I say to you, that if man would act as the merchant he should have no fear in that day, because he would be well prepared.

There was a man who gave money to his neighbours that they might trade with it, and the profit should be divided in a just proportion. And some traded well, so that they doubled the money. But some used the money in the service of the enemy of him who gave them the money, speaking evil of him. Tell me now, when the neighbour shall call the debtors to account how shall the matter go? Assuredly he will reward those who traded well, but against the others his anger shall vent itself in reproaches. And then he will punish them according to the Law.

As God lives, in whose presence my soul stands, the neighbour is God, who has given to man all that he has, with life itself, so that, [man] living well in this world, God may have praise, and man the glory of paradise. For those who live well double their money by their example, because sinners, seeing their example, are converted to repentance; wherefore men who live well shall be rewarded with a great reward. But wicked sinners, who by their sins halve what God has given them, by their lives spent in the service of Satan the enemy of God, blaspheming God and giving offence to others tell me what shall be their punishment?" "It shall be without measure," said the disciples.

@Davidylan:

Wow . . . the crucifiction was a rite? they thrust a spear in His side such that water and blood gushed out,

From big deep wounds, do "Water" gushes out? Ever? Is this one expression not indicative of the many 'fabus' we find between the covers of the Bibles. You are a scientist, what gushes out of open wound could be call water separate from the blood that is usually the product that comes out? As I read the water and blood gushing out, I envisage a water running out in the same way it shoots out when fire hydrant is turned open. Do you feel the same vibe on this or whats your take on it? Please explain.

We pray in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, is prayer a rite?

When you make this prayer in the name of your lord Jesus Christ, who are you making the prayer to, Dave?Jesus or someone else? Who exactly, by name and not by title? Jesus is a name and Christ is a title. I want the name first of who you are praying to when you make that prayer in the name of your lord Jesus christ. If you like you can provide title and description after giving me a name.

2. Its not a prescription- there is a baptism of water (that of John) and a baptism of the Holy Spirit (fire).

David, you seem to be inconsistent, in your descriptions of the two Baptisms. When you spoke about that of the water, you provided the entity who performed the baptism. But when you spoke about that of the spirit, you did not speak about the person who performed this one. You just wrote fire. Why? What role did fire play in the Baptism of the holy spirit? Who perforemed it and what form of fire are you talking about here? Please provide full details.

Interestingly, I would like to know which of the two, water and holy spirit baptism, is greater? If a person receives one instead of the other, what correlation does it have to Salvation in relationship to the person who received the other? Is the performer of either of the baptism greater than the one whom he performed it on? Let me give you a better understanding of my question: if a pastor performs a water baptism on a church member, is the pastor greater than the church member? If another pastor performs a holy spirit baptism on another church member, is that pastor greater than the church member who just got the holy spirit baptism? Which of the two pastors is greater and which of the two people who got baptized is greater?

na waooooooooooo, so much for religion, inspite of all this do we truely pratice what these holy books ask of us//////


muhammed and jesus were great men.thanks to Almighty God that we believe in His existing, so take time and pray to Him for His ways

@Davidylan

babs787, is there no longer a thread specifically for muslims? Is it so boring you just can't help but peep in here?

There is and you should go there and read my contribution. It gets interesting each day because we tend to learn things from each other. I come here once in a while when I read your fraud. You level of hypocrisy has become glaring that your folks are no longer interested in debating with you because you keep treading blindly and arguing back and forht even where answers have been provided.

Below is your allegation:

what a foolish man. Did you not say the bible allah sent was lost and the one we had was a corruption? Now you understand them better than us?

I asked you to furnish me where I said that God sent the BIBLE but you couldnt provide such but all you could was stutter. So you can see yourself now

Wow . . . the crucifiction was a rite? they thrust a spear in His side such that water and blood gushed out, they placed a crown of thorns on His head and cast lots over His clothes - - they did this to EVERY other crucified thief?

By YOUR definition it is.

1. Nope, you can be saved without baptism . . . Lazarus was saved, the thief on the cross was saved . . .

Wow, a very obvious blaspheme. Present this to your pastor and let him know that this came from you, he should pray for you so that you may know what you believe in and why you believe in it.

John 3:5
Jesus answered "Amen, Amen, I say to you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit"

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned


So what say you about the words of Christ?

Baptism is required. You cannot honestly become a Christian and say to yourself I don't have to be baptised. Ofcourse if you are working towards baptism as in the case of catechumens, but die before you can also be saved. But you cannot be a Christian for years and have no intention of getting baptised.

2. Its not a prescription- there is a baptism of water (that of John) and a baptism of the Holy Spirit (fire). No prescriptions, no rite. The Eunuch was baptised in water only.

And you know this because you were there? So you're saying that when the eunuch left he wasn't baptised with the Spirit, so how then was he a Christiand if he didn't have guidance from the Spirit and wasn't filled with the Spirit. I thought every Christian is filled with the Spirit.

That is your own personal oppinion, baptism and salvation are not rites.

This is also your own personal opinion. How can it be my own personal opinion and not yours? Who told you you're right?

Was the Eunuch's baptism a formal ceremony? Whom did he invite? Read the baptism of the Eunuch again . . . Philip wasnt thinking of baptising him, it took the understanding, the eagerness of the man himself to take in all that Philip had told to him to ask to be baptised. It was Philip guiding him through an elaborate celebration, rather it was a heart yearning after God who thirsted after those things that would make him accepted of the Father.

The definition I gave you was not my definition, but the definition of the dictionary, so it is not my opinion. So you see yours is of your own personal opinion. A rite does not have to be in a formal ceremony. But you will cling to that because that is how you can try to prove your point.

By the way your question: What is penance without hiding under the skirts of repentance?

I will not give you the wrong answer because you refuse to understand or because you are blinded by your arrogance and pride.
The answer I gave you is the correct answer. I will not change what penance is to appease you. So take it or leave it. But understand that you sound very much like the pharisees and saducees when Christ answered their questions and didn't understand him. Instead they tried to hide under the scriptures only to be told that they are blind.

~Lady~:

Wow, a very obvious blaspheme. Present this to your pastor and let him know that this came from you, he should pray for you so that you may know what you believe in and why you believe in it.

John 3:5
Jesus answered "Amen, Amen, I say to you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit"

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned


So what say you about the words of Christ?

Rubbish rubbish rubbish! Was Lazarus saved or not? Was the thief on the cross saved or not? Those were the two questions i posed that RIGHTLY prove that baptism while essential for every child of God will not preclude you from heaven should you for circumstances beyond your control be unable to partake of it.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

No where did i say christians shld go ahead and ignore baptism, BUT salvation is the first thing . . . without which baptism is simply a futile exercise that is no better than having a good old swim.

Did you bother to read carefully the quote you posted?

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned

Did you realise that it said nothing about whoever believed but was unable to be baptised?

John 3:5
Jesus answered "Amen, Amen, I say to you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit"

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word

Does the "water" in Ephesians 5:26 signify baptism or the continual washing of the inner man by the word of God?

Madam you people bluster too much, plenty of head knowledge but denying the power thereof. Every child of God who GENUINELY repents and is born again recieves the Spirit of God (the baptism of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands) - did you know that the one gift that was recieved by EVERYONE baptised by fire in the bible was the gift of tongues? Does the catholic church believe in speaking in tongues?

Water baptism is an outward show of being buried with Christ and raised up with Him a sanctified body. You do this in appreciation of Christ's utmost love for you. What of those who accept Christ on their death beds and cannot be immersed in water? Are they condemned too?

Please stop mutilating the scriptures . . . i would expect such nonsense from olabowale not those who pride themselves in having compiled the bible for us.

~Lady~:

The answer I gave you is the correct answer. I will not change what penance is to appease you. So take it or leave it. But understand that you sound very much like the pharisees and saducees when Christ answered their questions and didn't understand him. Instead they tried to hide under the scriptures only to be told that they are blind.

the hypocrisy in this "example" is jaw dropping. When Christ answered questions He ALWAYS made mention of "it is written". Madam my question till tomorrow is WHERE is penance written in your bible?

Read your bible properly before arguing, the pharisees did not hide under the scriptures, all they knew was the commandments of men. Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Not once did Christ acknowledge they were asking questions based on any deep understanding of the laws of the prophets.
At the end of the day, look yourself in the mirror . . . the face that stares back at you is one of a confused pharisee.

~Lady~:

I will not give you the wrong answer because you refuse to understand or because you are blinded by your arrogance and pride.

madam, arrogance in what? Pride in what? Even the devils know the bible and tremble. Where i to have power to cram the entire scriptures and have a heart that is not redeemed i am nothing but a sounding cymbal.

That i choose to use the very bible you purport to read to expose the spiritual emptiness of catholic man-made doctrine is attributed as pride to those who are too blind to see the truth.

You will not provide an answer, not because you did so earlier and i ignored it but because you really have none.

Rubbish rubbish rubbish! Was Lazarus saved or not? Was the thief on the cross saved or not? Those were the two questions i posed that RIGHTLY prove that baptism while essential for every child of God will not preclude you from heaven should you for circumstances beyond your control be unable to partake of it.

I like how you completely ignored this part of my write up:

Baptism is required. You cannot honestly become a Christian and say to yourself I don't have to be baptised. Ofcourse if you are working towards baptism as in the case of catechumens, but die before you can also be saved. But you cannot be a Christian for years and have no intention of getting baptised

the hypocrisy in this "example" is jaw dropping. When Christ answered questions He ALWAYS made mention of "it is written". Madam my question till tomorrow is WHERE is penance written in your bible?

Sir you choose to be blind. If I go back to my posts and quote for you the Bible verse I posted will you apologise for lying?

Not once did Christ acknowledge they were asking questions based on any deep understanding of the laws of the prophets.

And where have I or any Catholic acknowledge that you are asking question based on any deep understanding of the laws of the prophets.

We view you as a very confused and lost boy just as the pharisees were lost. The pharisees thought they knew the laws of the prophets, but didn't realise they were wrong, just as you think you know the laws of the prophets and the mysteries of the Christian faith, but you know not.

madam, arrogance in what? Pride in what?

arrogance in your knowledge of the Bible, Pride in failing to see that you know nothing.

That i choose to use the very bible you purport to read to expose the spiritual emptiness of catholic man-made doctrine is attributed as pride to those who are too blind to see the truth.

The Pharisees use this very same Bible to "expose the spiritual emptiness" of the Christian faith. The muslims use this very same Bible to "expose the spiritual emptiness" of the Christian faith. That you can quote the Bible does not mean you understand it or know the meaning of the words contained in it or the mysteries of the Christian faith.

That you can quote the Bible does not mean that you understand the faith. The Bible is not contradictory but your understanding and misinterpretation of it is. It is your very same misinterpretation and misunderstanding that led you to say that when all you need to have is faith and when the Bible verses that show you that you do need to do work with that faith were presented to you you dismiss them and quote another verse that fit your misunderstanding. Not realising that those Bible verses compliment each other and explain each other more, you wallow in your pride to save face and show that you are right, which you are not.

The verses that you have provided have not in anyway contradicted any of the teachings of the Church but supported it. But your understanding of it and interpretation of it contradicts the teachings but the verses you quote do not contradict it.
That has been my whole point. Quoting the verses don't shake me or any Catholic, infact we believe strongly in what you qoute, but we believe in the fill context of it after reading and understanding the other verses and seeing that they al support each other.
We see the full picture in the mysteries of the faith and don't turn a blind eye to one part and we don't pick and choose what to believe and what to dismiss. We believe strongly in every verse of the Bible and I mean the whole Bible not some verses and forgetting the others, but all the verses.

Lady, plenty of grammar . . . i like to point out issues from the bible and i expect you to do so.

~Lady~:

And where have I or any Catholic acknowledge that you are asking question based on any deep understanding of the laws of the prophets.

We view you as a very confused and lost boy just as the pharisees were lost. The pharisees thought they knew the laws of the prophets, but didn't realise they were wrong, just as you think you know the laws of the prophets and the mysteries of the Christian faith, but you know not.

I do not know it all, but this much i know ma'am . . . your cult doctrine is completely unbiblical. Again i will reference just one - Where is Mary regarded as the ark of the covenant in the bible? Not even the pharisees were this blind and deluded.

You can view me as anything you wish, the saducees thought Christ was the son of belzeebub.

~Lady~:

The Pharisees use this very same Bible to "expose the spiritual emptiness" of the Christian faith. The muslims use this very same Bible to "expose the spiritual emptiness" of the Christian faith. That you can quote the Bible does not mean you understand it or know the meaning of the words contained in it or the mysteries of the Christian faith.

Being able to quote it is far better than not even knowing what it says regarding very important issues.

All of a sudden i notice you have run away from the issue of baptism. The second baptism of the Holy Spirit was ALWAYS followed by the speaking in tongues - does the catholic church believe in it?

~Lady~:

That you can quote the Bible does not mean that you understand the faith. The Bible is not contradictory but your understanding and misinterpretation of it is. It is your very same misinterpretation and misunderstanding that led you to say that when all you need to have is faith and when the Bible verses that show you that you do need to do work with that faith were presented to you you dismiss them and quote another verse that fit your misunderstanding. Not realising that those Bible verses compliment each other and explain each other more, you wallow in your pride to save face and show that you are right, which you are not.

The verses that you have provided have not in anyway contradicted any of the teachings of the Church but supported it. But your understanding of it and interpretation of it contradicts the teachings but the verses you quote do not contradict it.
That has been my whole point. Quoting the verses don't shake me or any Catholic, infact we believe strongly in what you qoute, but we believe in the fill context of it after reading and understanding the other verses and seeing that they al support each other.
We see the full picture in the mysteries of the faith and don't turn a blind eye to one part and we don't pick and choose what to believe and what to dismiss. We believe strongly in every verse of the Bible and I mean the whole Bible not some verses and forgetting the others, but all the verses.

I menitoned this earlier, too much stories . . . why do you always shy away from tackling the real bible-based questions?

More questions to ask - Is the pope the representative of Christ on earth? When was Mary regarded as the queen of heaven? Was Peter truly a pope? Who said so? Does purgatory exist? where?
Do you pay for your sins in purgatory after death? How? why? where is it in the bible?

I do not know it all, but this much i know ma'am . . . your cult doctrine is completely unbiblical. Again i will reference just one - Where is Mary regarded as the ark of the covenant in the bible? Not even the pharisees were this blind and deluded.

Where is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit regarded as the Trinity in the Bible?

Being able to quote it is far better than not even knowing what it says regarding very important issues.

No it is not, even the devil quotes the Bible, you said it yourself. Understanding and knowing what it says fully is much better than quoting it.

Do you know why Christ had to come to this earth?
Do you know why he had to be human?
What was the significane of him becoming human?
Why did he have to come from a woman?
Why did the woman have to be a virgin?
What does it mean to be full of grace?

Reading certain verses in the Bible and running off of that is not enough. Understanding what you believe in and why you believe in it is very important, otherwise you are nothing but a brainwashed child.
Understading why certain events had to take place in your faith, understanding what each event means, understanding the mysteries of your faith is key.

You don't have to answer my questions, I already have the answers, but if you truly want to help yourself answer it for yourself. Sit in your room, open your Bible, and ask the Spirit to guide you.

What does the transfiguration mean?
What does the baptism of Jesus mean?
Who is the ark of the covenant in the book of revelations?
What does the annunciation mean?
What does the agony in the garden mean?
What does the crucifixion mean?
What does the eucharist (body and blood of Christ? mean and why do we need to partake in it?
Who is the woman clothed with the son with the moon under her feet?
What is the meaning of Revelations 11:19 and Revelations 12?

There are many more mysteries of the Christian faith. Reading and coming up with your own meaning is not the way.

I am going to asnwer you in good faith that you will actually sincerely read it.

Is the pope the representative of Christ on earth?

Yes.

When was Mary regarded as the queen of heaven?

When was the Father, Son, Holy Spirit regarded as the Trinity?

Was Peter truly a pope?

Yes he was the leader of all the apostles. In every instance where the apostles met, it was Peter that spoke out and addressed people. Even Paul acknowleged this when he wrote to the Galatians in Galatians 2:7 "On the contrary when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumsised, just as Peter to the circumsised"

Christ himself gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom of heaven, Matthew 16: 17-19 "Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Yes he also told the remaining of the disciples this but only the part about binding and loosing. But to Peter alone was the keys given.

Acts 5:15
"Thus they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and mats so that when Peter came by, at least his shadow might fall on one or another of them."

Don't dare bring up the question as to whether the Popes shadow heals today. Many people have been to see the Pope, you cannot honeslty say that no one has been healed. We do not need to broadcast the healings. The Church is not looking to be given credit for anything. We just live to serve God.

Does purgatory exist?

Yes.

1Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

Yeah you gave your own explanation of this as in they didn't have a saviour then. Well if so, why were only eight saved. Certainly there were more than eight that died. If these were good men why did they die at all, if they were bad, why were they saved at all, what about the other ones? Shouldn't they have been saved too? They lived in the same time and there was no saviour for them too. Surely God is not partial.

1Corinthians 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it.

11 for no one can lay a f oundation other than the one that is already there, namely, Jesus Christ.

12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw

13 the works of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each one's work.

14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage

15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person shall be saved, but only as through fire.

Why does the second person get a second chance or is chapter 15 saying that after that person's work is deemed to be unsatisfactory they will go straight to hell, and then nothing?
Why does it say that the person will be saved even after his work has been measured and found displeasing to God.

Do you pay for your sins in purgatory after death? How? why? where is it in the bible?

Yes, check above.

Honestly I can't continue this conversation with you. Not that I am hiding but because I have been cautioned by apostle Paul.
Titus 3:9-11
Avoid foolish arguments, genealogies, rivalries, and quarrels about the law, for they are useless and futile
10 After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic
11 realising that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condemned.

2Timothy 2:16-17
16 Avoid profane, idle talk, for such people will become more and more godless,
17 and their teaching will spread like gangrene

1Timothy 6:20
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid profane babling and te absurdities of so-called knowledge.
By professing it, some people have deviated from the faith

Here's something that he said, that is o so true
2Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers
4 and stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths

Anyway I bid you farewwll and hope that your eyes are opened. I pray that God reveals to you the mystery of the faith. It is imperative to know what you believe in, why you believe in it, and how it came to be.
Meditate on the mysteries of the faith and all will be revealed to you.

Peace of Christ be with you

~Lady~:

Where is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit regarded as the Trinity in the Bible?

same old red herring.

John 10:30: "I and my Father are one."
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
I John 5: 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The fact that the term "trinity" appears no where in the bible (its latin and the apostles did not speak latin) does not mean what it purports to describe is not there.

I have asked the same of you, perhaps purgatory is explained in the bible while the word is not exactly there . . . why have you shied away from explaining it?

~Lady~:

No it is not, even the devil quotes the Bible, you said it yourself. Understanding and knowing what it says fully is much better than quoting it.

you cannot understand what you don't know. Again i ask the very same question you have DELIBERATELY dodged twice now - EVERYONE baptised with fire in the bible spoke in tongues, does the catholic church believe in the speaking in tongues or in any baptism other than that of water?

~Lady~:

Do you know why Christ had to come to this earth?
Do you know why he had to be human?
What was the significane of him becoming human?
Why did he have to come from a woman?
Why did the woman have to be a virgin?
What does it mean to be full of grace?

Reading certain verses in the Bible and running off of that is not enough. Understanding what you believe in and why you believe in it is very important, otherwise you are nothing but a brainwashed child.
Understading why certain events had to take place in your faith, understanding what each event means, understanding the mysteries of your faith is key.

You don't have to answer my questions, I already have the answers, but if you truly want to help yourself answer it for yourself. Sit in your room, open your Bible, and ask the Spirit to guide you.

What does the transfiguration mean?
What does the baptism of Jesus mean?
Who is the ark of the covenant in the book of revelations?
What does the annunciation mean?
What does the agony in the garden mean?
What does the crucifixion mean?
What does the eucharist (body and blood of Christ? mean and why do we need to partake in it?
Who is the woman clothed with the son with the moon under her feet?
What is the meaning of Revelations 11:19 and Revelations 12?

There are many more mysteries of the Christian faith. Reading and coming up with your own meaning is not the way.

all these have only served as another good bait to dodge the real issues. I am used to such pranks by muslims, it is sad that even "christians" have resorted to using it.

Just to show you the hypocrisy in your own statements . . .

- Reading and coming up with your own meaning is not the way. - That is precisely what you and your cohorts in the catholic doctrine have done. see below:

1. Who is the ark of the covenant in the book of revelations? - The ark of the covenant in the old testament symbolised the presence of the Lord Almighty to the Jews. How did it suddenly become a symbol of Mary in the new testament?

2. Who is the woman clothed with the son with the moon under her feet? - How is Revelation 12 talking about Mary?

3. How is this ark refering to Mary?

NOTHING! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the bible points to Mary in those chapters were you to read the bible cover to cover . . . how did YOU come by that heretic conclusion?

The fact that the term "trinity" appears no where in the bible (its latin and the apostles did not speak latin) does not mean what it purports to describe is not there.

same thing with Mary

I have asked the same of you, perhaps purgatory is explained in the bible while the word is not exactly there . . . why have you shied away from explaining it?

you deliberately skipped it

you cannot understand what you don't know. Again i ask the very same question you have DELIBERATELY dodged twice now - EVERYONE baptised with fire in the bible spoke in tongues, does the catholic church believe in the speaking in tongues or in any baptism other than that of water?

Yes. We very much believe in the speaking of tongues and in the baptism of the holy Spirit. You never asked me this question. If you did and I missed it, i apologise.

1. Who is the ark of the covenant in the book of revelations? - The ark of the covenant in the old testament symbolised the presence of the Lord Almighty to the Jews. How did it suddenly become a symbol of Mary in the new testament?

It is not the symbol of Mary. Mary is the symbol of the ark of the covenant.
Jesus Christ is the covenant. Mary is the ark. Jesus was housed in Mary. The ark is mentioned in Revelations in the form of a woman who was with child and the child was the messiah and the dragon was the devil and the devil went after the woman and her son, not being able to capture the woman and her son, the messiah, he went after the rest of the woman's children, the christians.

2. Who is the woman clothed with the son with the moon under her feet? - How is Revelation 12 talking about Mary?

Well I don't want to repeat myself.

But I will show you what you ask for.

Revelations 12

1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun with the woman under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth
3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems.
4 Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. he the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the natons with an iron rod. Her child caught up to God and his throne.

The child destined to rule all the nations is Christ, the messiah, the woman is his mother clearly because she gives birth to him. Who's the mother of the messiah? Mary ofcourse.
Unless there's another messiah and another woman who gave birth to him, but we both know that to be false.

6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven, Micheal and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back.
8 but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
9 The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authroity of his Annointed. For the accuser of our brothers is cast out, who accuses then before our God day and night.
11 They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the wod of their testimony; love for life did not deter them from death.
12 Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them. But woe to you, earth and sea, for the Devil has come down to you in great fury, for he knows he has but a short time."

13 When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14 But the woman ws given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly away to her place in the desert, where, far form he serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half year.
15 The serpent, however, spewed a torrent of water out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with the current.
16 But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth and swallowed the flood that the dragon spewed from its mouth.
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who kept God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus
18 It took its position on the sand of the sea.

After not being able to get a hold of Mary and being defeated and cast down from heaven, the devil pursues the Christians, those who keep God's commandments. Those who keep God's commandments are the woman's children, the woman being Mary and those who keep God's commandment being Christians, Mary is the mother of Christians.

If you don't agree or don't see what I am saying then please bless us with your own interpretation.

~Lady~:

same thing with Mary

Which part of the bible CLEARLY describes Mary as the queen of heaven? think about it . . . why did NOT ONE of the apostles call her that?

~Lady~:

you deliberately skipped it

that is your oppinion, if i saw it in all clarity i would not skip it.

~Lady~:

Yes. We very much believe in the speaking of tongues and in the baptism of the holy Spirit. You never asked me this question. If you did and I missed it, i apologise.

Good.

~Lady~:

It is not the symbol of Mary. Mary is the symbol of the ark of the covenant.
Jesus Christ is the covenant. Mary is the ark. Jesus was housed in Mary.

this is too simplistic and is not supported at all in the bible. God was the very embodiment of the Ark itself in the old testament . . . how did Mary suddenly become this ark? The mercy seat was placed above this ark in the old testament, it was at this seat that the priests of old would come yearly to offer up sacrifices for the sins of the people . . . is Mary the one pleading for us today?

Jesus wasnt "housed" in Mary, she was merely the vessel by which He came to the earth.

~Lady~:

The ark is mentioned in Revelations in the form of a woman who was with child and the child was the messiah and the dragon was the devil and the devil went after the woman and her son, not being able to capture the woman and her son, the messiah, he went after the rest of the woman's children, the christians.

Madam IT IS NOT SO. Stop interpreting your own theology into the bible.

~Lady~:

Revelations 12

1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun with the woman under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth
3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems.
4 Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. he the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the natons with an iron rod. Her child caught up to God and his throne.

The child destined to rule all the nations is Christ, the messiah, the woman is his mother clearly because she gives birth to him. Who's the mother of the messiah? Mary ofcourse.
Unless there's another messiah and another woman who gave birth to him, but we both know that to be false.

6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven, Micheal and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back.
8 but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
9 The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authroity of his Annointed. For the accuser of our brothers is cast out, who accuses then before our God day and night.
11 They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the wod of their testimony; love for life did not deter them from death.
12 Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them. But woe to you, earth and sea, for the Devil has come down to you in great fury, for he knows he has but a short time."

13 When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
14 But the woman ws given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly away to her place in the desert, where, far form he serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half year.
15 The serpent, however, spewed a torrent of water out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with the current.
16 But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth and swallowed the flood that the dragon spewed from its mouth.
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who kept God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus
18 It took its position on the sand of the sea.

After not being able to get a hold of Mary and being defeated and cast down from heaven, the devil pursues the Christians, those who keep God's commandments. Those who keep God's commandments are the woman's children, the woman being Mary and those who keep God's commandment being Christians, Mary is the mother of Christians.

If you don't agree or don't see what I am saying then please bless us with your own interpretation.

Madam, this is based on what exactly? What is the scripture to back up these false claims?

What does this symbolise? - 6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.

1260 days divided by 360 days (initially regarded as the number of days in the yr) is exactly 3.5 yrs.
- Why is Mary on earth and chased to a desert for 3.5 yrs? What happened to her after this 3.5 yrs? Where exactly is Mary now? In heaven or on earth? What is the significance of this 3.5 yrs?

Did you know that the body of Christ is constantly refered to as a woman in the new testament?

Which part of the bible CLEARLY describes Mary as the queen of heaven? think about it . . . why did NOT ONE of the apostles call her that?

Why did NOT ONE of the apostles call the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the Trinity? How do you know they did not call her that. Were you there? Are all the sayings of the apostles in the Bible?
The core of our faith is Jesus Christ and that is what was highlighted. Mary is not to take away the glory of her Son, but that does not make her any less blessed.
The Bible speaks of her as the woman crowned with twelve stars. Seriously dude.
Who then is the Queen of heaven? Who then is the ark of the covenant? Certaily the first covenant had an ark, what about the second covenant? Who housed Jesus? Why did he need to be born of a virgin? What's the impotance of the woman? What does full of grace mean?

that is your oppinion, if i saw it in all clarity i would not skip it.

You already admitted to skipping it. Don't claim amnesia all of a sudden.

Good.

Learn something from the assumption that you made. Stop assuming things. Actually get to know the belief of the Church before you accuse her of anyting.

God was the very embodiment of the Ark itself in the old testament

It is now up to you to explain this part. Was the covenant placed in an ark or not? Was an ark created for the covenant or not? So is God now wood? Infact explain the ark of the covenant.

The mercy seat was placed above this ark in the old testament, it was at this seat that the priests of old would come yearly to offer up sacrifices for the sins of the people . . . is Mary the one pleading for us today?

The ark was not the one offering up sacrifices so how can it be Mary offering up sacrifices?
Yes Mary is pleading for us. But she's not the only one, the whole Church is pleading today for one another. We pray for one another.

Jesus wasnt "housed" in Mary, she was merely the vessel by which He came to the earth.

So where was he during his conception and how did he take the form of man? Was he outside of Mary?
You just realised that you have contradicted yourself in this sentence.

Well let's look at the vessel, certainly not any random woman could be chosen to house God himself, o would God just choose any random woman?

It's not just about a vessel, there is a reason why he had to come from a woman and that particular woman. Why that particular woman? What does she represent?

Madam IT IS NOT SO. Stop interpreting your own theology into the bible.

Saying it is not so, does not refute my statements and beliefs.
Showing how it is not so may refute my statements and beliefs.
So please show me how it is not so.

Madam, this is based on what exactly? What is the scripture to back up these false claims?

Either you are completely blind or you do not take Revelations 12 to be scripture

1260 days divided by 360 days (initially regarded as the number of days in the yr) is exactly 3.5 years.
- Why is Mary on earth and chased to a desert for 3.5 years? What happened to her after this 3.5 years? Where exactly is Mary now? In heaven or on earth? What is the significance of this 3.5 years?

The assumption of Mary was written to have occurred between 3 and 15 years after the ascension of Christ.
This link holds the story of her assumption [url]http://www.uoregon.edu/~sshoemak/texts/dormitionG2/dormitionG2.htm[/url]

So it just may be that 3.5 years is more accurate.
But hey it's not in scripture that she assumed but we do know the mysteries of the faith and the revelations given the Church by God himself.
St. Thomas doubted the assumption of Mary and was taken to her tomb to see for himself.

Mary is in heaven. she was granted a favour by her son and was taken up body and soul. To understand Mary one has to understand the resurrecton of Christ and his faithful. We are to be resurrected as he was and we know that there are few people who were already taken into heaven. Moses, Elijah, Enoch, so we know it is highly possible that one can be in heaven both body and soul. Certainly Jesus would not neglect his mother and allow her to suffer corruption. In so doing he honours his mother in every sense of the word.

The 1260 days symbolise the time period of the persecution of the church.

Did you know that the body of Christ is constantly refered to as a woman in the new testament?

The body of Christ is the Church and I know that it is referred to as a woman. But wait a minute I thought that was a bad thing, I believe you were the one, when trying to prove that the Church is the LovePeddler in revelations, specifically pointsout that the church calls regards herself as a woman. So why is it being used as a good thing in your argument now?

But hey I said if you don't agree then give your own interpretation

Here's the actual interpretation of the passage.

Revelations 12
1 Symbolizes the people of the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Isreal of Old gave birth to the messiah and then became the new Isreal, the church, which suffers persecution by the devil.

2 Because of Eve's sin the woman gives birth in distress

3 The devil or satan, the forces of eveil. The seven diadems symbolises the sovereign authority of the devil over kingdoms the world.

4 The devil positions itself to sto the salvation of mankind through the mesiah about to be born

5 Isreal gives birth to the messiah in whom the promise of slavation is fulfilled. The messiah ascended

6 God protects the Church during its persecution in the desert (traditional place of refuge in the OT)

7 A war between the angels and the devil and his angels

8 The devil and its angels were defeated

9 The devil, the ancient serpent (who seduced Eve) was thrown down to the earth

10 - 12 Rejoicing takes place because now the promise is fulfiled ad the Kingdom of God is at hand and accessible to all mankind. But those who still remain on earth are to suffer from the devil in his anger.

13 The devil pursues the Church

14 But the Church has help from above (divine help from God)

15 Serpent is shown as a sea monster

16 The Church is helped by the earth

17 The Church is protected by God but still the individual Christian must suffer persecution.

MARY- The new Eve, the Mother of the Church (the body of Christ), the ark of the covenant, the seat of wisdom (I bet you'll ask me about this one too, I'll wait for you to ask and ten I'll explain)

JESUS - The messiah, the new Adam, the new Covenant, the Word of God.

Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary!!!!

~Lady~:

Why did NOT ONE of the apostles call the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the Trinity?

Because silly, they didnt speak English in those days neither were the apostles latin speakers. This question is too absurd for words.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That was Brother John's testimony, need i remind you of Christ's rebuke of Phillip in John 14?

Now where are the apostles testimony of Mary as the queen of heaven?

Is this not the usual muslim tactic? What a shame.

~Lady~:

How do you know they did not call her that. Were you there?

2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Where are the witnesses to your heresy? Anything OUTSIDE the sacred texts of the Holy scriptures is blasphemy.

~Lady~:

Are all the sayings of the apostles in the Bible?

You have a special book were the remnant of their sayings are hidden?

~Lady~:

The Bible speaks of her as the woman crowned with twelve stars. Seriously dude.

It CLEARLY does not, you are the one reading heresy into Revelations 12.

~Lady~:

Who then is the Queen of heaven?

Where did you find this IN YOUR BIBLE? Pls show us pls.

~Lady~:

Who then is the ark of the covenant? Certaily the first covenant had an ark, what about the second covenant?

Read your bible very well and remove your catholic glasses . . . the ark of the covenant was a symbol of God's presence, it was not God in a box! As a christian YOU carry God's presence with you in the form of the Holy Spirit, you dont need a small wooden ark in your pocket no more. The second covenant?

1. What was in the first ark? 1 Kings 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

- i.e the old covenant/tablets of stone were the 10 commandments Moses recieved on the mount Sinai.

2. Where is this new covenant? Hebrews 10: 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The bible more than clarifies its position except to those who wish to believe old wives fables

~Lady~:

Who housed Jesus?

She was chosen as a vessel not His house.

~Lady~:

Why did he need to be born of a virgin?

God could not be born of the seed of the unregenerated man and remain sinless. Only the blood of the sinless was good enough to redeem man back to God.

~Lady~:

What's the impotance of the woman?

Of no more importance than those who are genuinely redeemed by His blood.

~Lady~:

What does full of grace mean?

It means absolutely nothing except to heretics . . . every child of God has God's EXCEEDING grace upon his/her life.

2 Corinthians 9:14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.

~Lady~:

It is now up to you to explain this part. Was the covenant placed in an ark or not? Was an ark created for the covenant or not? So is God now wood? Infact explain the ark of the covenant.

I explained this earlier, the covenant was indeed placed in the ark. Yes the ark was created for the covenant, no God is not wood silly . . . the ark merely symbolised His presence just like the blood of goats and rams was merely a shadow of better things to come - the redeeming blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Answer my own question - where is the new covenant? you are allowed to peep at the answer as i supplied earlier. It certainly isnt in any Mary.

~Lady~:

Yes Mary is pleading for us.

Again WHERE is this blasphemy in your bible?
Look who's pleading for me - Romans 8: 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of t[b]he Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.[/b]

That Spirit is God Himself.

Still not convinced? Look again - Hebrews 8: 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jesus makes intercession for ALL those who come to God through Him (for He is the way, the truth and the life . . .)

Show me JUST ONE verse that declares that Mary is interceding for you.

~Lady~:

So where was he during his conception and how did he take the form of man? Was he outside of Mary?
You just realised that you have contradicted yourself in this sentence.

There is no contradiction save that which you concoct. God did not require Mary to take the form of a man, He simply chose to do so. Mary was nothing but dust until Christ created her. To indirectly make the blasphemous claim that God needed Mary before He could transform Himself to the image of man is beyond delusional.

~Lady~:

Well let's look at the vessel, certainly not any random woman could be chosen to house God himself, o would God just choose any random woman?

Christ's Davidic lineage included a Moabitess (idol worshipper) and Rahab a harlot.

~Lady~:

It's not just about a vessel, there is a reason why he had to come from a woman and that particular woman. Why that particular woman? What does she represent?

Nothing but the vessel by which He chose to manifest in form of man.

~Lady~:

Saying it is not so, does not refute my statements and beliefs.
Showing how it is not so may refute my statements and beliefs.
So please show me how it is not so.

Did you yourself show me WHY you believe it is so beyond merely quoting a chapter you do not understand? Did you bother to explain it at all?

~Lady~:

Either you are completely blind or you do not take Revelations 12 to be scripture

Revelation 12 is scripture . . . where is Mary in it and HOW? Dont just quote and make false claims. Prove your claims.

~Lady~:

The assumption of Mary was written to have occurred between 3 and 15 years after the ascension of Christ.
This link holds the story of her assumption [url]http://www.uoregon.edu/~sshoemak/texts/dormitionG2/dormitionG2.htm[/url]

So it just may be that 3.5 years is more accurate.
But hey it's not in scripture that she assumed but we do know the mysteries of the faith and the revelations given the Church by God himself.
St. Thomas doubted the assumption of Mary and was taken to her tomb to see for himself.

Mary is in heaven. she was granted a favour by her son and was taken up body and soul. To understand Mary one has to understand the resurrecton of Christ and his faithful. We are to be resurrected as he was and we know that there are few people who were already taken into heaven. Moses, Elijah, Enoch, so we know it is highly possible that one can be in heaven both body and soul. Certainly Jesus would not neglect his mother and allow her to suffer corruption. In so doing he honours his mother in every sense of the word.

I don't know the significance of the 3.5 years honestly. But I do know that that paticular scripture speaks on the messiah and his mother.

this is the problem with all these unbiblical assumptions and heresy . . . the bible CLEARLY records the assumption of Elijah and Enoch . . . why did ALL the apostles not record even one bit of Mary's supposed ascension to heaven? Peter, John, Paul all FORGOT this "monumental" achievement even when they all KEPT talking about the ascension of Christ? Even Paul recounts the ascension of Enoch in the book of Hebrews.

Again, same problem with your rebuttals . . . no firm biblical basis. Nothing but conjectures and man made theology. The 3.5 yrs are absolutely very important because they speak NOT of Mary's time on earth but of the end time.

~Lady~:

The body of Christ is the Church and I know that it is referred to as a woman. But wait a minute I thought that was a bad thing, I believe you were the one, when trying to prove that the Church is the LovePeddler in revelations, specifically pointsout that the church calls regards herself as a woman. So why is it being used as a good ting in your argument now?

Rubbish. There is a Christ, there is also an antichrist . . . does that mean anything Christ is now bad?
As long as the true body of Christ is represented by a bride there will always be a false bride.