loswhite: I'm not against science if u must know because it involves knowledge. U probably misunderstood me

It's either everyone misunderstood you or your contributions so far screams one thing: OLODOISM!!!

Provie: Faith & Reason ar quite compatible. Faith proceeds from reason/logic. Here it goes:

1. there is a supreme being>

2. this supreme being can do all things>

3. all things include the impossible>

4. the supreme being can do the impossible.

Talking of evidence, havnt we (scientists inclusive) ever seen & confirmed sometin happen without reason/explanation?

Faith and folly are two different things, plz note!

How is it impossible if the supreme being can do it? Is it possible for this supreme being to commit suicide or is that impossible?

You should explain it for us.

Faith, in the sense of religious beliefs, cannot be compatible with reason.
Infact, avoiding reason is one of the major doctrine of most faith. While does who approves reason has specific limitation on what issues u should apply reasoning to.
Reason ask questions faith wouldn't give reasonable answers to. Faith is blind, faith is "jump without looking", while reason is "how am I sure it is safe".
Please read the question well before making your comments.

ghananotnaija: With Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, who needs reason? All I need is Jesus.

bros,u need reason..so u wont be a religion fanatic..

bebechuks: You should explain it for us.

outc@st:


[size=15pt]Rubbish!!![/size]

Those instances were from the Bible. If they are rubbish to you then you really need to caution yourself.

Logicboy03: IsnpiredbyGod.


Dont listen to the posters above me. They are quite delusional. Do you really expect a "faithful" person to say that faith is not reasonable?


Faith is the belief in things without evidence. Or even sometimes, the belief in things despite the evidence against them.


-Can a dead man really resurrect in 3 days?
-Can a snake really talk?
-Can a donkey really talk?
-Can a man walk on water?
-Can wine and bread be body and blood?


Faith makes you believe in things that are sometimes unbelievable.unreasonable

lost soul

It is reason & not faith that lets us know that no religion or God is higher than truth.

It is reason & not faith that lets us know that the world is round.

It is reason & not faith that lets us know that the earth is not the center of the universe.

It is reason & not faith that lets us know that the earth is older than 6,000 years old.
It is reason & not faith that lets us know that the brain is where thoughts are born, & not the heart.

It is reason & not faith that lets us know that all truth in the world is not found in any one book.

It is reason & not faith that lets us know that no one person has a mandate on truth.

It is reason & not faith that will quench the flames of hell & put it in the religious houses of worship.

It is reason & not faith that will take heaven out of the sky and bring it down here on earth.
Reason has been more beneficial to mankind than all the religions in the world combined.

With reason a man uses his own brain to think for himself, with faith another man uses his brain to think for us all.

Faith is believing in something that is nothing; an invisible idol being.

When reason ends faith begins! When reason ends guessing begin! When reason ends praying begins! When reason ends bloodshed begins!


LONG LIVE REASON!

Mzsolex: lost soul

Dead alive soul

Collins Le Skillz Madumere:

Those instances were from the Bible. If they are rubbish to you then you really need to caution yourself.

Read between the lines pappy!

*Kails*:


faith and reason go hand in hand.

religious fanatics are the ones who have cult-like mentalities and believe to challenge or question is to sin.
the concept of God came about through reasoning and experience in the first place.

the great ancient societies mixed science with faith and thus were able to build such great empires.
but now because of people seeking power and the constant "us against them" mentality of the modern human-being, the world is chaotic.

I see that i am slightly digressing from the topic so i'll end by saying again that true faith and reason go hand in hand.

and btw faith =/= religion

From a christian point of view, faith is not compatible with human reasoning.

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

davidylan: From a christian point of view, faith is not compatible with human reasoning.

First, there is the need to understand what you mean by 'human reasoning' but despite this handicap let me ask you this: Do you think it is unreasonable to believe in God? Note that belief and faith are synonymous.

outc@st:


First, there is the need to understand what you mean by 'human reasoning' but despite this handicap let me ask you this: Do you think it is unreasonable to believe in God? Note that belief and faith are synonymous.

Its not that complex. human reasoning is based on integration of evidence that is within the intellectual capacity of humans. For example - human reasoning states that man cannot walk on water... well that is based on the physical FACT that we are much much denser than water. But in the realm of God, that is a distinct possibility because God's power transcends human comprehension.

Belief in God is completely unreasonable WITHIN the confines of human intelligence. For example... it is biologically impossible to be in the belly of a fish for three days and survive.

Faith in Christ is about believing that He transcends our puny ability to understand things beyond or comprehension. Faith means believe that what God said, He will do regardless of the circumstances around us that magnify our limitations. Gideon destroyed a huge army with 300 untrained men... it certainly had nothing to do with their military prowess.

Faith is to believe without seeing and even to believe without reason or evidence.
Many events of our Christian Faith are still for the most part inexplicable and beyond the comprehension of the human mind - The Trinity; The creation of the world; Jesus' birth by the power of the Holy Spirit and thru a Virgin; His very crucifixion and death and even too that from Abraham rose two different religions.
Religion comes from God and God is Mystery.
Some He allows us to prove, other things He simply desires that we believe.
Faith and reason, they don't always go hand in hand.

Reason deals with things that has to be seen and touched. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. It is human to reason. On the other hand, to have faith is to depend on divinity.
What manner of reason will cause dry bones to live again??
So please don't come here talking about faith if you won't care to know the ways of God.
If you must apply reason in ALL you do then you can't have faith and ultimately you can't please God. Faith and reason is not compatible.
Faith is way above reason as the heavens is way above the earth.

Mzsolex: lost soul

No, you are the lost soul.

davidylan:

Its not that complex. human reasoning is based on integration of evidence that is within the intellectual capacity of humans. For example - human reasoning states that man cannot walk on water... well that is based on the physical FACT that we are much much denser than water. But in the realm of God, that is a distinct possibility because God's power transcends human comprehension.

Okay, cool! At least we now know what you mean by 'Human reasoning'. But do note that there are a lot of things we believe as Christians or Children of God that are totally reasonable...for instance our belief that no man should be killed and a host of other beliefs are very reasonable.

davidylan:
Belief in God is completely unreasonable WITHIN the confines of human intelligence. For example... it is biologically impossible to be in the belly of a fish for three days and survive.

Well I disagree with you here...belief in God is very reasonable...the evidence for God are overwhelming. The fact that we are here alone is evidence enough to show that there indeed is a God who created all.

davidylan:
Faith in Christ is about believing that He transcends our puny ability to understand things beyond or comprehension. Faith means believe that what God said, He will do regardless of the circumstances around us that magnify our limitations. Gideon destroyed a huge army with 300 untrained men... it certainly had nothing to do with their military prowess.

Of course there are a number of things that are beyond the scope of reason but this does not mean that when everything is revealed it will still fall outside the sphere of reason...take for instance the belief that the Earth was flat...a scientist came to say that this was wrong but considering that he was unable to provide evidence to support his belief, this was considered unreasonable. But now it is so reasonable to say that the Earth is not flat.

outc@st:


Okay, cool! At least we now know what you mean by 'Human reasoning'. But do note that there are a lot of things we believe as Christians or Children of God that are totally reasonable...for instance our belief that no man should be killed and a host of other beliefs are very reasonable.

I think we are conflating two things here. There is FAITH and there is BELIEF. Believing that killing is wrong is not the same thing as believing that Jesus is Lord.

outc@st:

Well I disagree with you here...belief in God is very reasonable...the evidence for God are overwhelming. The fact that we are here alone is evidence enough to show that there indeed is a God who created all.

Belief in God isnt humanly reasonable. It takes the Holy Spirit within you to be able to read the bible without laughing your head off. For example... outside the guidance of the Holy Ghost, it makes no sense to believe that someone crucified 2000 yrs ago is going to take away your sins by magic.

Like i said earlier, believing in intelligent design doth not a faith make.

outc@st:

Of course there are a number of things that are beyond the scope of reason but this does not mean that when everything is revealed it will still fall outside the sphere of reason...take for instance the belief that the Earth was flat...a scientist came to say that this was wrong but considering that he was unable to provide evidence to support his belief, this was considered unreasonable. But now it is so reasonable to say that the Earth is not flat.

The rationale for this analogy escapes me.

davidylan:

I think we are conflating two things here. There is FAITH and there is BELIEF. Believing that killing is wrong is not the same thing as believing that Jesus is Lord.

Belief in the lordship of Christ is not all that faith entails....there is more to it. Your OP suggests that everything that has to do with faith is at opposites with reason...this I do not agree to.

davidylan:
Belief in God isnt humanly reasonable. It takes the Holy Spirit within you to be able to read the bible without laughing your head off. For example... outside the guidance of the Holy Ghost, it makes no sense to believe that someone crucified 2000 yrs ago is going to take away your sins by magic.

It does not take the holy spirit to accept that there is a creator of the Universe. Even non-Christians and a number of great scientists can attest to this.

davidylan:
Like i said earlier, believing in intelligent design doth not a faith make.

davidylan:
The rationale for this analogy escapes me.

Not everything falls within the scope of reason at any given time; and everything that is true but seem unreasonable will become reasonable at the 'right time'.

[color=#990000][/color]Why are u arguing abt sometin soo simple like this.whether u are a christain or muslim u can still have faith.reason is human,u weigh things before u do them.while faith is divine tht is u can do tins without thinking of if it will b favourable or not but u jst do it having faith in God that all will be well. we have a reason for having faith which is God but faith is like being blindm wit faith we sometyms act unreasonable.pls faith and reason are not compatible.

davidylan:

Its not that complex. human reasoning is based on integration of evidence that is within the intellectual capacity of humans. For example - human reasoning states that man cannot walk on water... well that is based on the physical FACT that we are much much denser than water. But in the realm of God, that is a distinct possibility because God's power transcends human comprehension.

Belief in God is completely unreasonable WITHIN the confines of human intelligence. For example... it is biologically impossible to be in the belly of a fish for three days and survive.

Faith in Christ is about believing that He transcends our puny ability to understand things beyond or comprehension. Faith means believe that what God said, He will do regardless of the circumstances around us that magnify our limitations. Gideon destroyed a huge army with 300 untrained men... it certainly had nothing to do with their military prowess.

Davidylan, wow. For once I agree with you almost 100%. It's hard to believe that you are so candid to admit that belief in god is unreasonable from reasoning perspective. Thank you.
Now it won't be too difficult for you to understand where atheists are coming from.

Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see (New Living translation). One of the key words in this definition is hope. Now the question- is it everything we hope for that is reasonable? As far as you hope for it and have confidence it will actually happen, regardless of whether it is reasonable or not it means you are exercising faith. Now does it mean that as long as you have faith what you hope for will actually happen? Of course we all know the answer...

omonuan:

Any rational being should be able to distinguish the truth from lies. Unfortunately, some Christians would some times call truth lie and vice versa when it suits them.

Scripture very clearly affirms the law of contradiction. First John 2:21, for example, is explicit: "No lie is of the truth." Many other passages, such as 2 Timothy 2:13, ("[God] cannot deny himself" either assume or reiterate the law of contradiction.

The law of contradiction means that two antithetical propositions cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. X cannot be non-X. A thing cannot be and be simultaneously. And nothing that is true can be self-contradictory or inconsistent with any other truth.

All logic depends on this simple principle. Rational thought and meaningful discourse demand it. To deny it is to deny all truth in one fell swoop.
Until a little more than a hundred years ago, the law of contradiction was almost universally accepted by philosophers as a self-evident truth. Francis Schaeffer attributed the decline of 20th-century society to the demise of the law of contradiction. He suggested that when philosophy abandons this principle it sinks beneath "the line of despair" and ultimately makes suicide the only viable course of action.

The reason why Christians run from this is that the Bible is fraught with -you guessed it-contradictions.:

Matthew 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire. (Words of Jesus.)

Matthew 23:17 Ye fools and blind. (Words of Jesus.)


Mark 13:31, Matthew 24:35
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."

John 5:31
"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid."

John 8:14
"Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid."

John 8:18
"I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Luke 22:36 He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Mathew 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."

Mathew:16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 10:35-36
"For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law — a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."

Luke 12:50-53
"Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be my disciple."

1 John 4:19-21
"We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, 'I love God,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother."

Clap for ur self....I know u have been waiting all ur life to get dis out...... although it has nothing to do with the topic of discussion ...finally ....are u ok now?

plaetton:
Davidylan, wow. For once I agree with you almost 100%. It's hard to believe that you are so candid to admit that belief in god is unreasonable from reasoning perspective. Thank you.
Now it won't be too difficult for you to understand where atheists are coming from.

Omg...he totally dismiss the "within confines of human intelligence" part...

RealSleek:

Omg...he totally dismiss the "within confines of human intelligence" part...

Within the confines of human intelligence? That's an oxymoron.
Human intelligence as compared to...?

plaetton:
Davidylan, wow. For once I agree with you almost 100%. It's hard to believe that you are so candid to admit that belief in god is unreasonable from reasoning perspective. Thank you.
Now it won't be too difficult for you to understand where atheists are coming from.

I perfectly understand where atheists are coming from which is why in one of my earlier responses i had made it clear that faith (at least in the christian perspective) is completely dependent on the mercy and guidance of the Holy Ghost... without the Holy Ghost it is near impossible to convince anyone of average intelligence that many of the bible stories make sense from a logical perspective.

It is why John chapter 1 states that it takes the Holy Ghost to grant us the power to become sons of God, it is not something we simply pick off any shelf just because we "believe" that some intelligent design was responsible for the diversity on earth.

naijababe: I know the Nigerian type of faith is not compatible with reason.

What is Nigerian faith? Do you.know that the DEEPER LIFE MOVEMENT started in America and it is strongest there? The Apostolic Faith is rooted in America.

RealSleek:




Clap for ur self....I know u have been waiting all ur life to get dis out...... although it has nothing to do with the topic of discussion ...finally ....are u ok now?

It is related to the topic but you wont understand. You cannot reason without the law of contradiction as the bedrock. Yea...only faith will make people like you accept these contradictions when it suits your theory but deny it when it doesn't quite jive with your "faith." Are the citations true? You know that they are but for you they are inconvenient truths. At least you did not become abusive in order to obfuscate-you just did not like the exposé.

Sam Harris: "Faith is the license religious people give themselves to keep believing when reasons fail."

There should be a definition of terms. Reason depends on intellect and the senses. Whereas faith is rooted in belief and trust. The Apostle Paul was chosen because he had the cynical intelect of a lawyer. He accepted the Lord without recourse to his intellect. In days and months that followed, he must have subjected the doctrines to serious intellectual scrutiny. Read the epistle to the Romans a very good legal brief.It is what I Call a reasoned presentation of Christianity directed at the most sophisticated pepple of the time. And they were persuaded.

paulabdeel: There should be a definition of terms. Reason depends on intellect and the senses. Whereas faith is rooted in belief and trust. The Apostle Paul was chosen because he had the cynical intelect of a lawyer. He accepted the Lord without recourse to his intellect. In days and months that followed, he must have subjected the doctrines to serious intellectual scrutiny. Read the epistle to the Romans a very good legal brief.It is what I Call a reasoned presentation of Christianity directed at the most sophisticated pepple of the time. And they were persuaded.

Not really. On what basis was Peter selected then? On his skills for fishing?

paulabdeel: There should be a definition of terms. Reason depends on intellect and the senses. Whereas faith is rooted in belief and trust. The Apostle Paul was chosen because he had the cynical intelect of a lawyer. He accepted the Lord without recourse to his intellect. In days and months that followed, he must have subjected the doctrines to serious intellectual scrutiny. Read the epistle to the Romans a very good legal brief.It is what I Call a reasoned presentation of Christianity directed at the most sophisticated pepple of the time. And they were persuaded.

Have you ever once considered that what happened to Paul on his way to damascus could have been a sudden onset of some kind of benign mental illness?b