@Mactunji explain this experiment.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

How do you explain mutation in this light.

lorddeni: @maclatunji

You know the problem with you quasi-intellectual theologians, you always start all your arguments from a non-scientific viewpoint of finding means to justify an already pre-determined end, you then adopt any pseudo-knowledge to help, you root your argument in bases totally unagreeable to atheists/agnostics & when we see little or no point debating you in an arena you've built to your utmost convenience, you lay claim to the supremacy of your fallacies. What you should be more worried about should be how without mosques or churches or dedicated promoters, atheism/agnosticism keep gaining ground.

@Maclatunji good thing you are a muslim so I can easily give you one of so many issues of your faith to wrack your brain over. Please explain why according to the dictates of the Sharia, the punishment for leaving the Islamic fold is to be killed. I am sure university cultists will be thrilled to note the convergence.

Atheism/agnosticism requires the highest of level of of intellectual honesty because while you agree you do not know it all, you are willing to follow the trail of human discoveries over generations rather than accept philosophical attempts in the form of ancient religions with blatant deficiencies as the way and close your mind to everything else.

@Maclatunji, you have to forgive me, or rather your self-gratifying points, if I refuse to believe another of your religion's many plainly ridiculous doctrines- d doomsday signal that muslims will kill all jews from the surface of the earth such that a tree will speak to expose any jew hiding behind it for a nearby muslim to kill. If this doesn't seem like an ancient arab's wish for a utopian state of arab victory over jews in their historical battle of dominance underpinned by their mutual hatred in age where the farthest known place was China, you really need to think deeply.

I leave you with the words of an ancient arab scholar in the post-mohammedan age: 'You can pick true knowledge or religion, not both'

PS: For the christian evangelists who might be thinking this is just about Islam, nope it isn't. For the truly discerning, Islam is as much an attempted revision of Christianity in much the same way Christianity is revised Judaism

Just had to approach things from @maclatunji's point of view.

If you jump in here, I won't pull any punches

#Yawns

Attempt at thread derailment.

Kay 17: @Mactunji explain this experiment.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

How do you explain mutation in this light.

Easy, it is not like the bacteria stopped being bacteria and have you factored in the effect of population increase? The larger a population becomes, the more variety you will find.

If you search long and hard enough, you will find an egg within an egg.

There is even something called "assisted evolution".

My main point is that under no circumstance will these bacteria become tadpoles and then frogs. #LOL

The idea behind natural selection is that organisms mutate new information within their DNAs. Such mutations become permanent. And if every generation produces a unique mutation, over time the organism becomes different. It is through mutations new species emerge.

Now that the experiment proves mutation. We can examine the similarities among all life and trace the common source.

Nobody is saying bacteria turn to tadpoles overnight, rather there is a tree of life and all life comes from a source. Evolutionary biologists calculate million and millions of years for such changes.

Is Logicboy banned?

Kay 17: The idea behind natural selection is that organisms mutate new information within their DNAs. Such mutations become permanent. And if every generation produces a unique mutation, over time the organism becomes different. It is through mutations new species emerge.

Now that the experiment proves mutation. We can examine the similarities among all life and trace the common source.

Nobody is saying bacteria turn to tadpoles overnight, rather there is a tree of life and all life comes from a source. Evolutionary biologists calculate million and millions of years for such changes.

Mutation has never been in doubt even amongst human beings. Some people are naturally immune to HIV due to a mutation, this does not mean that they will become a different species from human beings altogether.

Albinism is a form of mutation. Shall we expect Albinos to become another species?

What you are essentially saying is that if those bacteria are there long enough, they will become multicellular organisms and may even be smart enough to debate with me after "millions of years" I say keep dreaming.

By the way, which bacteria would not want to become advanced organisms through "mutation"?

As for your "tree of life", do you think we are talking about Pokemon here? #Pikachu #Hehehehe

rationalmind: Here is where the problem lies. Muslims, christians when debating each other have been known to use the "you too fallacy". A muslim points out the sanctioned genocide in the bible and a christian also points out the ones commited by uncle mo.

That same failed strategy is what is been used when debating atheists. Knowing fully well, there is nothing about atheism to attack, they shift attack to evolution and the big-bang.

I wonder how many times it will have to be drummed into their ears that, atheism does not equal evolution or the big bang

exactly.I wonder why this is so difficult to understand.there are folks who just see religion as a fallacy and don't believe in any skydaddy.that doesn't automatically mean they are evolutionists or proponents of the big bang.

maclatunji:

Mutation has never been in doubt even amongst human beings. Some people are naturally immune to HIV due to a mutation, this does not mean that they will become a different species from human beings altogether.

Albinism is a form of mutation. Shall we expect Albinos to become another species?

What you are essentially saying is that if those bacteria are there long enough, they will become multicellular organisms and may even be smart enough to debate with me after "millions of years" I say keep dreaming.

By the way, which bacteria would not want to become advanced organisms through "mutation"?

As for your "tree of life", do you think we are talking about Pokemon here? #Pikachu #Hehehehe

Now we both agree about mutation.

And even with the homo sapiens, there is still diversity. We have the Africans, Southeast Asians, Europeans, South Americans, Native Americans with their peculiar features - - meaning they had a common ancestor from whom, they have presently evolved away from.

A substantial number of mutation within a species can spin off another species, in that the new species has a result of the mutations taken place, can validly be distinguished as a different species in spite of the fact it came off an earlier species. For example HIV1 is different from HIV2.

So also a Grizzly Bear (ursus arctos) is of a different species from the Polar Bear (Ursus Maritimus)

*edited

maclatunji: Another analogy:

Can anyone tell me the exact moment he fell asleep last night? I can guarantee that no one can.

Atheists reasoning:

1. You cannot tell the exact moment when you fell asleep last night.

2. If you cannot tell the exact moment that you slept, how would you know you slept at all.

3. We say sleep does not exist because you cannot isolate when it happens.

4. In fact, last night you did not sleep at all.

I know I slept for a few hours last night, would you agree sleep does not exist if I cannot isolate it?

The moment of sleep can be demonstrated with scientific instruments. This has been extensively studied. Science has not yet explained all the aspects of sleep, but this does not mean that it cannot be explained one day. Which brings me back to your OP. All the guy is doing is using a 'god of the gaps' argument; maybe he is unaware that these 'gaps' have been getting smaller and smaller...

Mynd_44:
Watch it

Watch what?

onetrack:

The moment of sleep can be demonstrated with scientific instruments. This has been extensively studied. Science has not yet explained all the aspects of sleep, but this does not mean that it cannot be explained one day. Which brings me back to your OP. All the guy is doing is using a 'god of the gaps' argument; maybe he is unaware that these 'gaps' have been getting smaller and smaller...

I am a big fan of the science, but trust me the science cannot tell the exact moment you sleep. It can only identify the different sleep periods such as the period of rapid eye movements and the other #Yada #Yada #Yada

maclatunji: I would be shocked if anyone does not believe in microevolution: which basically means that animals and plants can experience minor changes over time but not to the extent that an amoeba would become a human being. That is just laughable.

Through microevolution, wild animals can become domesticated, symbiosis may occur, parasitism may emerge. A classic example is HIV.

The virus has evolved to take advantage of the moral decadence of men towards homosexuality to spread quickly amongst the general population.

The next slip for human beings I forecast is bestiality, if this becomes widespread, expect new diseases unseen before in humans.

These examples are easy to comprehend for those who want to.

There is a lot of discussion of evolution by theists, I present a few links to readers:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/657/

The bolded shows you have no idea what you are talking about and have not taken time to study evolution nor the evidence. No evolutionist will tell you that amoeba evolves into humans. It is extremely improbable. Infact none of any living animal today evolved from another living animal today, so when you people start talking of evolution in terms of an existing specie like a human evolving from another existing specie like an amoeba, it just showcases your intellectual limitations.
Moreover, evolution is not transformation. That's another mistake you people make. It is a continuous thing. Every animal and plant are continuously evolving. Slowly but surely.

maclatunji:

I am a big fan of the science, but trust me the science cannot tell the exact moment you sleep. It can only identify the different sleep periods such as the period of rapid eye movements and the other #Yada #Yada #Yada

I don't know what to say.
Good that you said you are only a fan and not actually a scientist. Yes, we can tell the exact moment you sleep.

Delafruita: exactly.I wonder why this is so difficult to understand.there are folks who just see religion as a fallacy and don't believe in any skydaddy.that doesn't automatically mean they are evolutionists or proponents of the big bang.

In short, "I don't know/believe" is what you want people to believe.

We know for a fact that we have a creator. That is the first step, the next step would be to find out: "what are characteristics of our creator"?

Anyway, you are still to tell us why I should start seeking 72 virgins because you can't prove evolution.

maclatunji:

In short, "I don't know/believe" is what you want people to believe.

We know for a fact that we have a creator. That is the first step, the next step would be to find out: "what are characteristics of our creator"?

I asked this question before but religious people ran away. DESCRIBE YOUR CREATOR!

A simple reply will do @maclatunji,
you don't have to run away because you can't defend yourself & then attempt to cover yourself by claiming to yawn and a ridiculous thread derailing accusation. This has to be the first time on NL an OP is accusing someone who specifically responded to the opening post on a point-by-point basis as a thread derailer simply because you know you lack the capacity to be intellectually honest in your response

maclatunji:

#Yawns

Attempt at thread derailment.

maclatunji:

I am a big fan of the science, but trust me the science cannot tell the exact moment you sleep. It can only identify the different sleep periods such as the period of rapid eye movements and the other #Yada #Yada #Yada

when I was small, I remember how my pastor use to say, it is impossible for science to know the depth of oceans (thats why god is all powerful) today we have several cables passing thru these same oceans.. everyone can determine the depth now.
I'm sure there r people like u that would have said it's impossible for humans to fly when the wright brothers were trying to build plane, today we have done more than flying, we have been to the moon.
today, you communicate with people at the end of earth, to places you never thought existed with just a button. im very sure only god and witches could that before.
u claimed to be fan of science but underestimate its power.
the fact that u cant determine when u sleep doesnt mean it is impossible. im very sure the fact that we cant determine when u sleep right now is because knowing it wont aid human survival in anyway.

9jadelta, don't believe his nonsense that science can't determine when you sleep. The sleep detection technology is actually very old. Infact it is very common today that some luxury cars have it fixed so they warn when the driver starts to doze off.
In hospitals, they can fit a machine on you that can tell them almost everything about how you sleep: when you sleep, how deep you sleep, your sleep breathing rate, what part of your brain is active, etc, etc, etc.

maclatunji:

In short, "I don't know/believe" is what you want people to believe.

We know for a fact that we have a creator. That is the first step, the next step would be to find out: "what are characteristics of our creator"?

the major difference between theism and atheism is the presence of the herd mentality in theism.theists don't have the benefit of been able to stand by the sideline and analyse the facts of whatever religion they profess.theism for the most part does not arise from a deep conviction rather its a matter of what family one is born into,circumstances of life etc.apostasy might have been an exception but its more a case of leaving one herd for another.

Atheism on the other in almost all cases is a result of logical understanding of what is and isn't accompanied by proper analysis of what should be.most atheists had their foundation in theism but couldn't help questioning the imperfections prevalent in their religion.doesn't matter how you look at it,an atheist is always intelligent,logical and confident.not because they don't believe in skydaddy but rather because an atheist has come to the realisation that life is what you make of it.atheists don't expect mercy from above but most times they realise that karma is a biatch and so would rarely deliberately hurt others.atheists have no boundaries except of course the confines of the law.they believe in the equality of all irrespective of gender,social status or sexuall orientation.

Once more,not all atheists are evolutionists.

I recall an incident that happened a few weeks ago.I happened to be in a bus on the way to apapa when this elderly man started singing and praising jehovah.a short while later the man started plenty prayers to which the passengers kept thundering plenty amen especially since his prayers had to do with "ember tragedy".after all the prayers,the man started to relate how he was diagnosed with glaucoma in one eye which eventually got blind because he could afford post-surgery medication.then he said same ailment was now in the second eye and he just had surgery and was required to buy eye drop and use for 14days.it was to cost 1500(one thousand five hundred) and he had to start using it that night or risk the other eye goin blind completely.to my chagrin all those who were screaming amen at his prayers decided to concentrate on their phones.after a while someone gave the man 20naira and another gave him 5naira.I was so disgusted at the 5naira I had to reprimand the young lady and ask what she expected the man to use the 5naira for.suffice to say all the man could raise was 75naira from his "brethren".then I gave the man the money he asked for and he entered into another round of prayers which made me tell him I didn't need his prayers.I told him to let go of skydaddy and figure out how to make something of the remaining days of his life.then he said God used me to answer his prayers so he knows God answers prayer.

That experience is just one of many where religious folks have showed their true colour.but if it were their pastors or imams that asked for contribution,you'd see them racing to "tap from anointing".hypocrites

maclatunji:

I am a big fan of the science, but trust me the science cannot tell the exact moment you sleep. It can only identify the different sleep periods such as the period of rapid eye movements and the other #Yada #Yada #Yada

They can tell using EEGs and fMRIs. In addition I saw a study in which researcher captured the loss of cognitive awareness to within one second. If I were not traveling right now I could provide the name of the researcher because I have the book at home. In any case there is virtually no limit to the specificity of the demand you are making; I could do the same thing with determining the moment a light bulb is considered to be 'on', and conclude that since we cannot define what it means to be 'on' that therefore 'on' does not exist.

maclatunji:

We know for a fact that we have a creator. That is the first step, the next step would be to find out: "what are characteristics of our creator"?

We do not know this. Even if there was a creator, show me that he is not dead.

Alfa Seltzer: 9jadelta, don't believe his nonsense that science can't determine when you sleep. The sleep detection technology is actually very old. Infact it is very common today that some luxury cars have it fixed so they warn when the driver starts to doze off.
In hospitals, they can fit a machine on you that can tell them almost everything about how you sleep: when you sleep, how deep you sleep, your sleep breathing rate, what part of your brain is active, etc, etc, etc.

cool cool cool
I gotta look into that

maclatunji: ^Your case is no case at all. So far, I see ad hominems and no attempt to logically disprove his excellent analysis. This is an analogy of what Atheists are saying:

1. I am an intelligent being.

2. I come from nothing.


We say:

1, Nothing is zero.

2. Zero is unitelligent

Conclusion:

1. You say you come from nothing

2. Nothing is zero

3. And zero is unintelligent

4. Therefore you have no intelligence because you are essentially zero.

Rebuttal:

1. You insist you are intelligent

2. We say you must have come from something intelligent to have intelligence.

In essence, an Atheist insults himself as "nothing" everytime he says he has no creator.

As for evolution, re-read the OP again. If you do not get it, then there is little need engaging you as you might never get it.

-QED

Since you also claim your god does not have a creator, each time you make such statement, you insult your god as nothing.

Hope your logic become clear to you now.

And this is no lecture for atheists, this is a show of your ignorance.

lorddeni: @maclatunji

You know the problem with you quasi-intellectual theologians, you always start all your arguments from a non-scientific viewpoint of finding means to justify an already pre-determined end, you then adopt any pseudo-knowledge to help, you root your argument in bases totally unagreeable to atheists/agnostics & when we see little or no point debating you in an arena you've built to your utmost convenience, you lay claim to the supremacy of your fallacies. What you should be more worried about should be how without mosques or churches or dedicated promoters, atheism/agnosticism keep gaining ground.

Don't Atheists employ this same strategy? I've seen it here on this thread, and others throughout the religion section. It's a vicious cycle on both sides of the debate.

I think K 17 is the only one that doesn't fall into it. Although he/she does use similar strategies to maneuver people where intended. This person only jumps in where it is strategically advantages. Then retreats in wait for the next opportunity. There is no struggle for superiority. Once a foothold is gotten, it is held till further advancement is a possibility. Genius! Is this person a military strategist? I have to wonder. Of all the arguments I see in this section, this person is the only who could convince me that Atheism is even a possibility for me. It is not. I'm just sayin'. 'Following'

@ maclatunji
Great job here. Also 'Following'

Oh ok i get it now. It smacks of unintelligence to claim you believe in nothing. But it is perfectly sensible & intelligent to claim your god came from nothing. Yeah seems legit,makes perfect sense

texanomaly:

@ maclatunji
Great job here. Also 'Following'

Even you Tex, I find it dubious how christians become so agreeable with muslims when debating the existence of God!

Is Allah the same with Yahweh?
Do you believe the world was created by Allah? Or did they work together?