destino24:

Long epistle, the truth is bitter

The truth is always bitter my man

APPROVED SCHEDULE OF ENTRY QUALIFICATIONS
INTO ENGINEERING CADRES
ENGINEERS
1. B. Sc, B. Eng, B. Tech in Engineering
2. HND in an Engineering field + COREN accredited
PGD in the same field e.g. HND Civil Engineering +
PGD Civil Engineering
3. Diploma – Engineer from Continental Europe.
4. Degrees in Engineering from the East Bloc
translated as M. Sc.
5. New B. Sc in some countries in Eastern Bloc as
degree
A Registered Engineer shall use the abbreviation
"Engr" before his name
This is culled from www.COREN.gov.ng

Hahaha Anvaller nailed destino24 with very clear and concise answers.

@destino, it's very clear that you are being sentimental here. Learn to accept facts during arguments jor...

kennytidistar:

and So? who told you there no Dr in polytechnic? is Prof not just a chieftain academic title? do you want to earn more than PhD? let start thinking above our cap!!

You just committed a big blunder by saying prof is just a chieftancy title and on e can't earn more than PhD. Have you had about Post-Doctorate? You think it stops at Just PhD? A prof earns far above what an ordinary PhD holder will earn.
For those claiming to go through university it will be better you stopped claiming what you didnt do because i see no reason after graduating from the poly you further proceed to the university for a degree and now shouting Poly graduates are practically oriented than university graduates. I want to ask '' Who are these lecturers that taught the Poly graduates these practicals? arent they degree holders? or do polytechnics now recruit HND holders to lecture in the polys? You cant compare a Specialist/ Professional (University graduate) who dishes out instructions on how you go (Poly graduate) about a problem. Its enough all these lies of poly students bn better practically than university graduates because i wonder how many equipment are working in those polytechnic. if you talk of entrepreneurial skills i give it to poly graduates because they are faced with so many inferiority complexes that they tend to do well in business.

dejt4u:
let me tell u what probably u didnt knw about university education in Nigeria...
As a university graduate, u are bound to be versatile i.e u will nt be restricted to ur dept or faculty alone.. If u are a science student, u will tak some courses outside ur faculty be it admin, social science, art, tech etc weda as core courses, free electives, special electives or restricted electives.. So it makes dem more versatile dan ppl from other higher institutions..that is what i meant by revision of poly's curriculum..
Although, those wit OND or HND are very good in practicals even better than uni graduates especially in engineering... I hope u get me better now

This very point you raised made nigeria university curriculum obsolete. Try to check UK Universities curriculum, you will observe that they focus majorly on courses relevant to your field, but in Nigeria reverse is the case.
Secondly, in UK, You can proceed to Master level with hnd. But in Nigeria, the education policy formulators are university graduates that kicks against this(stigma) and that is the more reasons Nigeria universities standard in our land is nothing to write home about.
In Uk, with your hnd certificate, you can proceed to the final part of bsc or ba. But in Nigeria, universities will never mention hnd in direct entry programme(stigma). They want hnd to start from year two.
Hnd graduate excels in professional exam than bsc.
At pgd level, there is nothing new in the programme that has not been taught at hnd level. Lets stop this stigma so that Graduate of polytechnic can as well contribute meanifully to the development of this nation

The op is talking about international grading of HND vs BSC, and some people are talking about corruption ridden COREN and Nigerian Educational system.

How many Nigerian Uni graduates are members of COREN .

We just love to discriminate in this country.

Most Nigerian HND holders go directly for thier Msc abroad.

But Nigerian university with bad academic records, with insist HND holder go for PGD.

The funny part of it all, is that some Nigerian universities discriminate other Nigerian Universities.

It will be difficult for UNIMED graduate to do his/her Masters in OAU.

Olugbenger:




Hear him yourself. He stated Profs and Phd holders earn the same pay again, called professorship just a title in the university system.


How do you expect us to take him seriously or even his word?

Gbenga, common drop dat shepe and open your eyes, read between the line, my sentence were very simple and unambiguous. I mean there is no other academic degree higher than PhD. * earn. not inform of wages or salary. omashe o, aranmo ni ile eko olonjo palongo ati alanta. chinco age. or do you think professorship is a qualifications? it's a chieftain academic title, I can defend that anywhere in the world, if you have Prof in your school ask him or her. or Gbenga you don't know the meaning of a Prof? the WAY you attached special season to it amuse me.

emmatok: The op is talking about international grading of HND vs BSC, and some people are talking about corruption ridden COREN and Nigerian Educational system.

How many Nigerian Uni graduates are members of COREN .

We just love to discriminate in this country.

Most Nigerian HND holders go directly for thier Msc abroad.

But Nigerian university with bad academic records, with insist HND holder go for PGD.

The funny part of it all, is that some Nigerian universities discriminate other Nigerian Universities.


It will be difficult for UNIMED graduate to do his/her Masters in OAU.

Nigerian Universities dont discriminate against one another when you are coming for PG studies. the only issue is that you are subjected to certain course work which other colleagues that graduated from the school might not have to offer again.

emmatok: The op is talking about international grading of HND vs BSC, and some people are talking about corruption ridden COREN and Nigerian Educational system.

How many Nigerian Uni graduates are members of COREN .

We just love to discriminate in this country.

Most Nigerian HND holders go directly for thier Msc abroad.

But Nigerian university with bad academic records, with insist HND holder go for PGD.

The funny part of it all, is that some Nigerian universities discriminate other Nigerian Universities.

It will be difficult for UNIMED graduate to Masters in OAU.

Nigerian Professors are theory professors and not practical. That is the reason they consolidate stigma between bsc and hnd

kennytidistar:

Gbenga, common drop dat shepe and open your eyes, read between the line, my sentence were very simple and unambiguous. I mean there is no other academic degree higher than PhD. * earn. not inform of wages or salary. omashe o, aranmo not ile eko olonjo palongo ati alanta. chinco age.

And i still ask '' Have you heard of Post-Doctorate''?

destino24:

Accountants no dey do practical, whether in a university, polytechnic or monotechnic.

In the Engineering field, they do more of practicals than theory.
In a university, all engineering students will take a course called "ALGEBRA" (both basic and advanced) in first year (first semester).

In a polytechnic, mechanical Engineering students take this same course as "ADVANCED ALGEBRA" in their final year

haha..guy advanced algebra for first years..why not add O.D.E for den..mtseew..spewing rubbish

ekwah: Hahaha Anvaller nailed destino24 with very clear and concise answers.

@destino, it's very clear that you are being sentimental here. Learn to accept facts during arguments jor...

Facts? Just give me 2 facts to prove hnd is equal to bsc

eddieo:
And i still ask '' Have you had of Post-Doctorate?

is part of traditional fellowship course, stop the blip, some school are just trying to incorporate that, it has no value of what So ever, in fact I think the UNITED STATE are doing everything possible to fully establish that

Gnosticmovement: haha..guy advanced algebra for first years..why not add O.D.E for den..mtseew..spewing rubbish

I guess it sounds too difficult to be possible at that level, huh? Well, it's true

I don't need to lie to score cheap points

Stop the noise;

1000 Diplomas can never be equivalent to a Degree.

2cent

Which author=walezy14]

Nigerian Professors are theory professors and not practical. That is the reason they consolidate stigma between bsc and hnd[/quote]

Which one is theory professor and practical professor again?

Nawa for una

stupor:
am also one of the best to speak on matters as these as I hate to tell people about it.I have both the Poly and Uni education at almost all the levels frm OND,HND to Msc in Uni.

With my AAT its a direct entry to 300 level without seating for exams in the Uni.including my ICAN or PGD and MBA.

Its very easy to pass any given exam in the University esp.when you come from the Polytechnic,you are nO dare-god,I was like a tin-god,I don't talk in class,but after every exam lecturers all end up to be my friend as they always want tO know which level I was in my ACCA and ICAN.

Cut the story short,get an education and if you must get any,never jeopardize that Polytechnic Offer letter,it can make you also a Tin-god in whatever field you so wishes.

My university experience was just to frolick,flirt,learn more about women and socials,I passed major Uni exams woithout reading,but only depend On my HND class lessons.that's a poly Trade secret if you must know.

Go to Yabatech and ask on average how many are already qualified Chartered Accountants at OND 2,and yet still humbly offer themselves loyalty to their lecturers.

University is for sports,Soundcity special events,Miss Nigeria,Tuface,Dbanj Concerts,while a Polytechnic is strictly for learning.

So kindly let our minds remain constructively positive and lets stop segregating as it leads no where. !

As an earner of both worlds at all levels,its always natural for someone who is jealous and of inferior esteem to feel threatened and that is the case of major Uni grads.its just like placing two kids in a roOm to study,the younger likes studying while the older just like palying around and when exams come,the younger dusted and left the older one in the class.but each time they get outside to play with others the older tries to show superiority,but only in age terms as he is a junior to his younger one in class !

That's the Uni-Poly analysis ! The younger one is the Polytechnic grad ! Who doesn care about Other frivlities and plays except books and learning.

Even despite getting Uni Ed.i was still being hated upon because i came from the Poly.and i often dust everyone of my Uni Coursemates during exams and always loved by my lecturers !

I borrowed one of my PHD lecturer my Group Consolidation theory when he wanted to write ACCA.he failed that stage 5 times consecutively in ICAN before opting for ACCA !

So I leave the rest of the emotions for you all to control,its not lipservice,if you never attended A poly and you see one so remarkable,it can make you feel with your BSC or MSC you have not attended any school at all !

Its just the rare drill of an average Poly grad.I heard the same about NCE holders too but I think an OND is a more refined scholar built for the institutional econOmics and less of a teacher.

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Correct me if am wrong but, I don't think you will be admitted to 300L with your AAT, I think its with ACA. And your analogy of those 2 boys doesn't really depict the issue here. You were better than them because you had already passed the courses. It had nothing to do with HND being better than B.sc. Same could be obtained if a B.sc holder went for lectures in a polytechnic on courses he had pass.
By the way who told you university is all about parties, sports and the likes. I used to think unilag was like that until I read my eyes out to graduate. What make a good school are those social facilities u trivialise. Have you ever wondered why u won't be employed with just an ACA without your B.sc and HND? Its because they expect the school to pass through you and not just the other way round. Have you also ever wondered why we have more entrepreneurs who are B.sc holders than its "younger nerdy brother"? Its still because of those social environment and facilities you trivialise.

adetorosey: Stop the noise;

1000 Diplomas can never be equivalent to a Degree.

2cent

In Nigeria

destino24:

Bro, ideally, if you graduate an engineer from a university, you'll be given a B. Eng not a B. Sc.

That said, a food engineer was given. ..
B. Eng = Bachelors of Engineering in Food Engineering

OR

B. Tech = Bachelors of Technology in Food Engineering.

They are not the same thing

U are wrong cos dey are the same. They are all bachelors degree named according to ur field i.e B.eng (a grad of engineering). B.Sc (a grad of faculty of science/ soc.Sci, app.sci, mgt.sci). B.tech (grad of/from tech dept or faculty). They all hold Bachelors degree (university graduate) just diff discipline. Just like there's M.BA, M.arch, M.sc, M.Ed. M.Phil they are all masters degree but according to ya field.

walezy14:
This very point you raised made nigeria university curriculum obsolete. Try to check UK Universities curriculum, you will observe that they focus majorly on courses relevant to your field, but in Nigeria reverse is the case.
Secondly, in UK, You can proceed to Master level with hnd. But in Nigeria, the education policy formulators are university graduates that kicks against this(stigma) and that is the more reasons Nigeria universities standard in our land is nothing to write home about.
In Uk, with your hnd certificate, you can proceed to the final part of bsc or ba. But in Nigeria, universities will never mention hnd in direct entry programme(stigma). They want hnd to start from year two.
Hnd graduate excels in professional exam than bsc.
At pgd level, there is nothing new in the programme that has not been taught at hnd level. Lets stop this stigma so that Graduate of polytechnic can as well contribute meanifully to the development of this nation

If you don't like it that way, write JAMB and get admission into a university, ah ah. After all, they are the same

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Wealthyone:


U are d..amn wrong cos dey are the same. Thet are all bachelors degree sub divided according to ur field i.e B.eng (a grad of engineering). B.Sc (a grad of faculty of science). B.tech (grad of/from tech dept or faculty). They all hold Bachelor degree (university graduate) just diff discipline. Just like there's M.BA, M.arch, M.sc, M.Ed. They are all masters degree but according to ya field.

OMG
First line = they are the same
Second line = they are sub divided.

Bro, you're contradicting yourself

Please read my post properly before quoting me, abeg

destino24:

I guess it sounds too difficult to be possible at that level, huh? Well, it's true

I don't need to lie to score cheap points

Take it easy guy! Engineering students do algebra in 100 levels and not advanced algebra.

destino24:

OMG
First line = they are the same
Second line = they are sub divided.

Bro, you're contradicting yourself

Please read my post properly before quoting me, abeg

U read mine b4 quoting.

Wealthyone:


U are wrong cos dey are the same. They are all bachelors degree named according to ur field i.e B.eng (a grad of engineering). B.Sc (a grad of faculty of science/ soc.Sci, app.sci, mgt.sci). B.tech (grad of/from tech dept or faculty). They all hold Bachelors degree (university graduate) just diff discipline. Just like there's M.BA, M.arch, M.sc, M.Ed. M.Phil they are all masters degree but according to ya field.

stupor:

One thing have noticed here on Nairaland is that the MODs favor some particular topics even when it lacks crystal clear truth and justice !

Every year they try to reproduce what someone has said before because they feel uncomfortable and they want cheap and lame advantage.

I will not allow someone else's ignorance and uncredible education with regards to colleagues who attended a Nigerian Uni. Education to make bleak the future of others who have earned for themselves a proud and well deserved qualification.

University education is no way superior to Polytechnic education,not even in any way !

Its just a simple example of pitied advantage of University education who are lucky enough to have been in positions and offices of power that made it easier for them to take decisions for partially for themselves only otherwise every polytechnic graduate would have done the same.

A university education is a favored opportunity that Nigerians have turned to make look like fashion and aesthetics whereas a majority that holds it move around with it full of void,originality,techicality,Objectivity,professionalism which the Polytech.has in all its ramifications.

A Univeristy education is new while the Polytechnic is the origin and bedrock which seals the fact that most Nigerians don't know,A polytech. has in its coffers all that it takes to be a professional and nothing but the best in your given field.

A University is an extension of the solid structure and foundatoion a Polytech.is found so that it can include sports,fashion and extra-curricular activities whereas the major learning,development,research,inventions,theories,proofs are simply alienated to Polytechnic,more reasOn a Polytech will floor any University grad in major Post-grad and Professional exams.

University education is for the fashion and play while a polytechnic cannot jeopardize that because the whole world depends on their theory to work includin Uni.so while a Uni student is palying VOlleyball r learning hw to swim in the college for competitions,a Polytech undergrad is nerdily locked up by their supervisors at their different labs working because the Polytech.total land mass might not even have the space for a pool talkless of a Hockey court as no much time can be devoted for. Minor things as that ! Getting your theories right are important to Polytech undergrads than sports or a swimimg pool !

How many times did you get to hear or see Albeit Eienstein found playing ? He's always locked in the lab doing new things,and that is the state of mind of an average Polytech.

The best teaching place for developing theory and assessing practical is having a quality HND certificate and not even a business school or Univsersity education in Nigeria can contest that.

University education in Nigeria is a jealous group of people with little or no knowlege when it comes to higher education and always envious when they find themselves in the midst of a Nigerian Polytechnic graduate.

Quoting your words::::::::n essence, some of the lecturers in our polytechnics lack the academic and technical wherewithal to baptize their students with the required skill and knowledge. But the problem goes beyond that!

But kindly take note of these findings:

A Polytechnic Lecturer will teach and lecture a PHD University lecturer the basics and complex areas of his or her study without reading it from the book including scientific and engineering theories.

A Polytechic graduate in accounting with HND will teach all the PHD holders including professors things they have never had of in their career history.

An OND Polytechnic holder,will comfotably teach a doctorate all he needs to know about accounting and same goes to Engineering Polytechic graduates.

While a University is offering 5 courses in final year, a Polytechnic student is managing nothing less. Than 10 complex papers incuding cumbersome Case theories to hack.

@ OP you are just one of the several bunch of Jealous University holders who take envy at Polytechnic holders or try make them look less superior but you are totally mistaken and lack the truth.

Ask for ICAN,CITN,ACCA and any other Finance related Professional exams for their Log pass history and ICAN will be proud enough to tell you that the best minds ever in the history of their exams have always being a Polytechnic graduate !

It is just your shallow sightedness and the overly congested craving that government has for Universoity as regards its funding that few people like you habour in your minds that makes you think because of the land mass,few tall structures,thearter halls Owned by law and the revered course like Medicine that makes you think you can match up with a Poly,but get it wrong completely.

After medicine and law,no other course ! I repeat no other course taken in a University on an average can outmatch a polytech grad! I have done my own several research !

Finally,let me let you know that a PHD holder cannot take the same level with an HND Accounting grad in ICAN,the HND Accounting will be nothing less than 2 steps above Your University ProF.

Or is a. Polytechnic grad that made the rule !

I will simply just want you to keep your University Certificate where ever you hid it and let it be known that the best genuises when it comes to Higher education hails from the polytechnic and stop creating unnecessary rivalry that is filled up with wrong emotional jealousies over the excellently earned skills of a polytech. Grad.

Stop discriminating and if you must get your facts clear,visit Professional bodies and foreign institutions or take a polytech. Exam first to clear your doubts befOre trying to blemish the future of well meaning graduates that have attended and earned a quality Polytech.Education.

Let's talk about something else,like how you and I as youths can affect this badly soiled country and not all these irrelevant arguments that yields no profit.

Mark Zuckerberg is the youngest billionaire because he worked on a social networking theory and i bet you he can employ you now same goes to Bill Gates,a college drop out.

Let the works of your hand speak for you and not some cheaply acquired certificates that everyone now has.

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u are a delusional human being for the above trash u wrote...having read the rubbish u posted,i can see u are clearly suffering from huge infeority complex......its better for u to face d reality dat u can never compare a diploma to a degreee...the disparity is so alarming.....how daft can u be to compare both degrees,when its even glaring in the place of work,engineers are the boss and instructor,while an hnd holder is to carry out order given by engineers(b.eng,b.sc) most of the hnds like u on this thread are like u,arguing from the farcial illussion that a polythecnic is better,when ironically poly is a dumping ground for nigeria universities reject...most hnd holders arguing in this thread have still another problem,like u,its evident their infeority complex is so huge....the sooner u face the reality that in nigeria a polytecnic will always be inferior to a university,and that university degree will always be light years higher ahead of hnd,the better for u.....

Wealthyone:

U read mine b4 quoting.

You obviously didn't read mine properly. Did you see the first line, i mentioned engineering

Olugbenger:

Yea bro. I understand you perfectly now.i hardly debate issues revolving about equivalence, but my grievance on this thread is not even the equality they propose if you notice from my posts.

It's coming from claims by HND chaps, that they being better than Bsc holders and they are discriminated. I take no pleasure in denigrating any individual's degree or level of education but i do take serious offence when mine is on the heat, especially being demystified falsely.


I don't endorse unrealistic approaches to employment either and do hope the standard of various educational institutions are improved. We can discuss such issues here, but reaching a prevalent compromise seems almost impossible.

Great comment from you. I also won't agree with anyone that says his HND is better than my B.sc.
Why I share in their sentiment is because I was in the system and I almost went for my HND but my boss called me then after my IT and explained why I shouldn't go for HND. She took me to the banking hall and showed me the tellers, they all had HNDs and had been stagnant for years as contract staffs in GTB. It seems unfair, but I wondered why they just chose to be tied down. Shouldn't they upgrade on their certificate? It didn't make much sense to me then, but am glad I heeded her advice and opted for a B.sc.

eddieo:
You just committed a big blunder by saying prof is just a chieftancy title and on e can't earn more than PhD. Have you had about Post-Doctorate? You think it stops at Just PhD? A prof earns far above what an ordinary PhD holder will earn.
For those claiming to go through university it will be better you stopped claiming what you didnt do because i see no reason after graduating from the poly you further proceed to the university for a degree and now shouting Poly graduates are practically oriented than university graduates. I want to ask '' Who are these lecturers that taught the Poly graduates these practicals? arent they degree holders? or do polytechnics now recruit HND holders to lecture in the polys? You cant compare a Specialist/ Professional (University graduate) who dishes out instructions on how you go (Poly graduate) about a problem. Its enough all these lies of poly students bn better practically than university graduates because i wonder how many equipment are working in those polytechnic. if you talk of entrepreneurial skills i give it to poly graduates because they are faced with so many inferiority complexes that they tend to do well in business.

we are not saying one is better than the other but we are saying international academic body recognize both to be equivalent to each other, my friend your post doctorate is not in anyway an issue here that is a new fellowship research oriented work supervised BY post doctoral I know that wella. you teach in university dey dash you Prof So leave story.

rckdude:

Great comment from you. I also won't agree with anyone that says his HND is better than my B.sc.
Why I share in their sentiment is because I was in the system and I almost went for my HND but my boss called me then after my IT and explained why I shouldn't go for HND. She took me to the banking hall and showed me the tellers, they all had HNDs and had been stagnant for years as contract staffs in GTB. It seems unfair, but I wondered why they just chose to be tied down. Shouldn't they upgrade on their certificate? It didn't make much sense to me then, but am glad I heeded her advice and opted for a B.sc.

Nice choice

stupor:
am also one of the best to speak on matters as these as I hate to tell people about it.I have both the Poly and Uni education at almost all the levels frm OND,HND to Msc in Uni.

With my AAT its a direct entry to 300 level without seating for exams in the Uni.including my ICAN or PGD and MBA.

Its very easy to pass any given exam in the University esp.when you come from the Polytechnic,you are nO dare-god,I was like a tin-god,I don't talk in class,but after every exam lecturers all end up to be my friend as they always want tO know which level I was in my ACCA and ICAN.

Cut the story short,get an education and if you must get any,never jeopardize that Polytechnic Offer letter,it can make you also a Tin-god in whatever field you so wishes.

My university experience was just to frolick,flirt,learn more about women and socials,I passed major Uni exams woithout reading,but only depend On my HND class lessons.that's a poly Trade secret if you must know.

Go to Yabatech and ask on average how many are already qualified Chartered Accountants at OND 2,and yet still humbly offer themselves loyalty to their lecturers.

University is for sports,Soundcity special events,Miss Nigeria,Tuface,Dbanj Concerts,while a Polytechnic is strictly for learning.

So kindly let our minds remain constructively positive and lets stop segregating as it leads no where. !

As an earner of both worlds at all levels,its always natural for someone who is jealous and of inferior esteem to feel threatened and that is the case of major Uni grads.its just like placing two kids in a roOm to study,the younger likes studying while the older just like palying around and when exams come,the younger dusted and left the older one in the class.but each time they get outside to play with others the older tries to show superiority,but only in age terms as he is a junior to his younger one in class !

That's the Uni-Poly analysis ! The younger one is the Polytechnic grad ! Who doesn care about Other frivlities and plays except books and learning.

Even despite getting Uni Ed.i was still being hated upon because i came from the Poly.and i often dust everyone of my Uni Coursemates during exams and always loved by my lecturers !

I borrowed one of my PHD lecturer my Group Consolidation theory when he wanted to write ACCA.he failed that stage 5 times consecutively in ICAN before opting for ACCA !

So I leave the rest of the emotions for you all to control,its not lipservice,if you never attended A poly and you see one so remarkable,it can make you feel with your BSC or MSC you have not attended any school at all !

Its just the rare drill of an average Poly grad.I heard the same about NCE holders too but I think an OND is a more refined scholar built for the institutional econOmics and less of a teacher.

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rubbish,pointless,nonsense!!

Olril18:
rubbish,pointless,nonsense!!

My sentiments exactly

stupor:

To add to yours sir,In Ife OAU,I know a OND accounting holder that teaches almost all the accounting students extra-curricular lessOns including their final year students while he also gets paid.

His lesson institutiòn was called GOPAB :Group of Professional Accountants and Bankers.he solely teaches all the other students and his seniors at OAU,ife,way back 2O00-2005.

He finished from Osun State College of Tech,Esa-OKE with OND Accounting,made the Direct Entry list at Ife to study Acct and at the same time runs his HND Acct.concurrently at The College of Technology,Esa Oke.

Ask of GOPAB in Ife if it still exists,it was founded by young and highly intelligent OND holders from Osun State College of Tech.Esa-Oke.

This is actually true and confirmed.

Please always respect other people's qualification even when you know they can be better than you,its all for our own benefits !

Stop the hate and jealousies !

Enough of this already! He was able to teach them because he was ahead for them. Didn't you say he was running his HND? I agree HND is equivalent to B.sc (at least in management courses) but pls do not say it is better. I also taught some of my course mates back in school because of my OND, but wen we got to 300L, we were more or less already at par save for some few. The only advantage I had was that I was already used to reading for long hrs; this I got from my ND schooling.