OutlukBabe:

I have once ask my Pastor a question about the power of God. He told me he is all most powerful He can do and undo as he wills. He create the Heaven and the Earth and the Human beings. He has power to forgive sins and wipe away everything because of His Grace. But what still confounds me, is that the Pastor still could not answer one of my question bothering me. Ok Adam and Eve sins back in the heaven. God didnt forgive them, he decide to punnish them. Not only did he purnish them, He now said that the sin are transferrable to all the next generation. and generations and generations came and generation came all are sinners, not because of their sins today, but because of the sin of Adam and Eve until when he decide to come down to earth himself in another form, and call himself the son (sometimes I get confused as to which church should I believed in the concept of God and Son being one, after all they said they are different). Then God now decides to forgive all of our sins, the sins committed by Adam and Eve, and other generations. But for him to forgive the sins, he decided to allow himself killed on the cross like a thief by the sinners (He was even tried for treason in his own Kingdom). Why didnt he ask his twelve disciple to kill him on the cross, in a more ritual way (like Okija shrine), so that people will believe yes he decided to kill himself. However, in the chapter I read in the bible, It was not even God was telling us, no, it is one of the authors of the book that said so, not only did he said so, he Didnt quote God. So I ask my pastor, if God have power to forgive, why can't he just forgive? SAY I FORGIVE ALL YOUR SINS? That is all, and it is forgiven. Must he kill himself to forgive us? Why did he even have to complaint to another God for forsaken him when he was being killed? There is something wrong in the whole story. Either the bible writers could not account for the stories properly after all they have been passed from generation to generation on a hear say (they are all humans, and can forget) or something is wrong. Whenever I have conversation about this thing with my Pastor, he will tell me I should pray. I need the holy spirit. But how? Do I need the holy spirit to understand things? Why did God give me the brain to think?

Outlukbabe,welcome to the club.My sides ached from reading the SAY I FORGIVE ALL YOUR SINS part.I'm sure there are answers to those, but I have to confess I don't know em.

@Outlukbabe

OutlukBabe:

I have once ask my Pastor a question about the power of God. He told me he is all most powerful He can do and undo as he wills. He create the Heaven and the Earth and the Human beings. He has power to forgive sins and wipe away everything because of His Grace. But what still confounds me, is that the Pastor still could not answer one of my question bothering me. Ok Adam and Eve sins back in the heaven. God didnt forgive them, he decide to punnish them. Not only did he purnish them, He now said that the sin are transferrable to all the next generation. and generations and generations came and generation came all are sinners, not because of their sins today, but because of the sin of Adam and Eve until when he decide to come down to earth himself in another form, and call himself the son (sometimes I get confused as to which church should I believed in the concept of God and Son being one, after all they said they are different). Then God now decides to forgive all of our sins, the sins committed by Adam and Eve, and other generations. But for him to forgive the sins, he decided to allow himself killed on the cross like a thief by the sinners (He was even tried for treason in his own Kingdom). Why didnt he ask his twelve disciple to kill him on the cross, in a more ritual way (like Okija shrine), so that people will believe yes he decided to kill himself. However, in the chapter I read in the bible, It was not even God was telling us, no, it is one of the authors of the book that said so, not only did he said so, he Didnt quote God. So I ask my pastor, if God have power to forgive, why can't he just forgive? SAY I FORGIVE ALL YOUR SINS? That is all, and it is forgiven. Must he kill himself to forgive us? Why did he even have to complaint to another God for forsaken him when he was being killed? There is something wrong in the whole story. Either the bible writers could not account for the stories properly after all they have been passed from generation to generation on a hear say (they are all humans, and can forget) or something is wrong. Whenever I have conversation about this thing with my Pastor, he will tell me I should pray. I need the holy spirit. But how? Do I need the holy spirit to understand things? Why did God give me the brain to think?

Do you seek answers from the bible only or are you willing to examine answers irrespective of the source from which the answers were derived. If you are willing to consider answers wheather or not they come from the bible, I will be willing to offer my perceptions on your questions. Stay blessed.

The Bible is the basis of her faith, and of mine, and it's the primary place to search for answers. Everything is based on it. The Grail Message is one man's take on the truth, whatever that is, since truth is as different and as varied as individual realities and experiences. It's his opinion of the truth, and it doesn't make it less an opinion if he'D posted them on nairaland instead of publishing it in The Grail Message.

I'll digress a bit. Steven Pinker doesn't say our genes have morals and know right from wrong. He and Dawkins are saying, in the early stages of our evolution, our genes were somehow coded to put themselves first, and to strive to overcome others. Amino acids cannot differentiate good from evil. But you're describing the chemistry of DNA, and DNAs are more than mere chemical properties. It's like saying I'm made up of blood and spleen and fluids and heart and calcium and whatever stuff comprises my chemical make-up, and so I cannot distinguish between good and evil. I am more than the sum of my parts, and so are our genes. Someone said the world was round,not flat. Another said blood circulated through the body. Another said people died in unclean hospitals and surgeries because there were invisible things called bacteria that killed them. They were villified by professional colleagues, became laughing stock, and couldn't get their views or research published in the equivalent of peer review papers back then too. And yet these are things we now know to be true today. Given that there are no absolutes, and that the sum of what science knows is far less than what it doesn't, I find it hard to take an[i] absolute[/i] stance on any finding in any field, however fantastic. Because no scientist can claim to know all there is to know and all that will ever be discovered and proven in his field; science is an on-going process. And while I don't defend Pinker or Dawkins, something about their arguments made sense to me in a way those authors did not intend. Something about genes codified to be selfish in the dark, mysterious days of our creation struck me as very possible. These might be the physical, chemical results of a 'spiritual' event. Time alone will prove their theories right or wrong. Having some colleagues who disagree- mind you there are plenty who do not- and not being published in peer-reviewed journals carries no weight with me.

Digression over. I'm a Christian. I am supremely comfortable in that religion. I am not looking to leave it. I am looking to UNDERSTAND it. I want to separate what man has made of it from what it really is. The questions I asked I got from reading the Bible. Though I will read The Grail Message, I can't see how one man's truth will be valid for all time and all beliefs and explain not only the mysteries of another holy book he had no hand in fashioning, but explain the very mind of God. Christianity and Judaism and Bible and Pope and the rest, are all man-created labels. A thing by any other name,  So labels are unimportant. I want to understand what it is I believe. I don't understand why the Bible says some people are going to hell when they have no business there. When they're a product of their environment and their upbringing. The Grail Message did not create that or any other doctrine in the Bible. Where did it get the answers then, to all its mysteries?

There's something about Christianity. It turns you into someone you can respect.  Don't lie. Don't cheat. Don't steal. Don't kill. Don't fornicate-   Hmmm, well, that puts a bit of a damper on things-  but the point is, Christianity builds character. And that an ideal worth striving for,reward in and of itself. I'll read The Grail Message, but since the Bible is the basis of our faith, it is the primary source of answers, much like your holy book, and cannot be disregarded. The problem is, and remains, what the truth is in the Bible. What is it saying? Separating what is real and true and glorious from what man has taken and tampered with. Understanding exactly what I believe and why I believe it. That's why I seek answers. It can come from other sources. But what speaks to you may not necessarily speak to another, and there is no one universal TRUTH that knows it all.

@Mad_Max

The Bible is the basis of her faith, and of mine, and it's the primary place to search for answers

. Everything is based on it. The Grail Message is one man's take on the truth, whatever that is, since truth is as different and as varied as individual realities and experiences. It's his opinion of the truth, and it doesn't make it less an opinion if he'D posted them on nairaland instead of publishing it in The Grail Message.

Thanks for informing me that the bible is the source of your faith. It is your choice to have any view about the Grail Message. I gave explanations because I thought you are willing to examine any answers irrespective of the source. Now that you have stated you position on the issue, I will not offer further explanations.

I'll digress a bit. Steven Pinker doesn't say our genes have morals and know right from wrong. He and Dawkins are saying, in the early stages of our evolution, our genes were somehow coded to put themselves first, and to strive to overcome others. Amino acids cannot differentiate good from evil. But you're describing the chemistry of DNA, and DNAs are more than mere chemical properties. It's like saying I'm made up of blood and spleen and fluids and heart and calcium and whatever stuff comprises my chemical make-up, and so I cannot distinguish between good and evil. I am more than the sum of my parts, and so are our genes. Someone said the world was round,not flat. Another said blood circulated through the body. Another said people died in unclean hospitals and surgeries because there were invisible things called bacteria that killed them. They were villified by professional colleagues, became laughing stock, and couldn't get their views or research published in the equivalent of peer review papers back then too. And yet these are things we now know to be true today. Given that there are no absolutes, and that the sum of what science knows is far less than what it doesn't, I find it hard to take an absolute stance on any finding in any field, however fantastic. Because no scientist can claim to know all there is to know and all that will ever be discovered and proven in his field; science is an on-going process. And while I don't defend Pinker or Dawkins, something about their arguments made sense to me in a way those authors did not intend. Something about genes codified to be selfish in the dark, mysterious days of our creation struck me as very possible. These might be the physical, chemical results of a 'spiritual' event. Time alone will prove their theories right or wrong. Having some colleagues who disagree- mind you there are plenty who do not- and not being published in peer-reviewed journals carries no weight with me.

I could make further clarifications and give mauch detailed explanations. But there is no point in doing that. Science is done on the pages of peer refereed journals, not in books, not in newspaper articles, not in google, much less on nairaland.

Digression over. I'm a Christian. I am supremely comfortable in that religion. I am not looking to leave it. I am looking to UNDERSTAND it. I want to separate what man has made of it from what it really is. The questions I asked I got from reading the Bible. Though I will read The Grail Message, I can't see how one man's truth will be valid for all time and all beliefs and explain not only the mysteries of another holy book he had no hand in fashioning, but explain the very mind of God. Christianity and Judaism and Bible and Pope and the rest, are all man-created labels. A thing by any other name,  So labels are unimportant. I want to understand what it is I believe. I don't understand why the Bible says some people are going to hell when they have no business there. When they're a product of their environment and their upbringing. The Grail Message did not create that or any other doctrine in the Bible. Where did it get the answers then, to all its mysteries?

I have not asked you to leave your faith. I only offered my perception to the questions you raised. I mentioned the Grail Message because you asked my source. Wheather or not you read the Grail Message is your choice, not mine. Whatever you  make of it after you have read it is your choice too.

There's something about Christianity. It turns you into someone you can respect.  Don't lie. Don't cheat. Don't steal. Don't kill. Don't fornicate-   Hmmm, Well, that puts a bit of a damper on things-  But the point is, Christianity builds character. And that an ideal worth striving for,reward in and of itself. I'll read The Grail Message, but since the Bible is the basis of our faith, it is the primary source of answers, much like your holy book, and cannot be disregarded. The problem is, and remains, what the truth is in the Bible. What is it saying? Separating what is real and true and glorious from what man has taken and tampered with. Understanding exactly what I believe and why I believe it. That's why I seek answers. It can come from other sources. But what speaks to you may not necessarily speak to another, and there is no one universal TRUTH that knows it all.   

There is no point giving further explanations. If you have found the aswers to what perturbs your spirit in your faith, then keep to it. I have no intention of persuading you or any human being to change his or her beliefs. When seekers ask serious questions, I offer my perceptions on the questions asked. Equally when they do not want to examine my explanations, I will not force it on them. Therefore I withdraw from giving you further explanations or clarifications. Stay blessed!

pls tell ur friend that there is God and nomatter wat he might be going through, tell him He has noright to be saying all that bla-bla God create him, d air he breath is from God, tell him dat he should be careful and bewarn of apostacy.he should be very very careful on wat he alter from his mouth.

yesterday i was watching a film JUDGEMENT, One of this 666 films and a casewas raise to prove dat there is God and if There is he should appear and defend himself. but dat wasnt proper for God to do as he will not do it coz his ways are not our ways neither his thought ours. just as JESUS was ask to come down from the cross to save himself if he was a true GOD not doing dat didnt mean he isnt GOD.
so ur friend should know dat his unbelieve cannot change God or his existence.
he should think of one particular thing and a day dat something good happen to him and he says THANK GOD.
tell him dat God love him somuch more dan he can ever imagine God loves him. tell him God is set to turn things around in his life.
tell him to cheer up cpz GOD is coming to his aid.
But first of all he should go to GOD and ask him4 mercy for all the wrong and blasphemous words he has spoken.
if he is going thru any difficulty he shud look up to him.

@ m Nwankwo

Arguments. Too much like disputes. Is why I avoid them. I was clarifying something that might or might not be clear: That I'm a christian,irrespective of my issues. I make no apologies for that. But I also said that was a label, and it's what one believes that matter, not what those beliefs are labelled or the religion to which it is attached. And I didn't say I was unwilling to examine other material.What on earth kind of stance is that? I'm saying the Bible cannot be disregarded since it is the very Foundation of the faith. Another book that would claim insider knowledge on the Bible and the mind of its God, and all the issues I have with religion and mankind and the universe had better be more than a collection of reflections.   

I'm reading The Grail Message, which, as you know, is fascinating stuff. The offer to answer questions on it is withdrawn then? Hmmmmm?

@evangsam
Since my conceited friend is following the thread with a greal deal of interest- it's about him after all, the yeye guy- I've no doubt he saw your message.

This is vedeo is quite interesting, as to the authencity of all the books in the bible. Could it be that, the bible is not the actual words of God? Could it be it is just a book of story tellers?

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7560334588471801986&hl=en

@Mad_Max

Arguments. Too much like disputes. Is why I avoid them. I was clarifying something that might or might not be clear: That I'm a christian,irrespective of my issues. I make no apologies for that. But I also said that was a label, and it's what one believes that matter, not what those beliefs are labelled or the religion to which it is attached. And I didn't say I was unwilling to examine other material.What on earth kind of stance is that?

I stated in my original answers to your questions that the issues you raised are valid questions. I did not in all my explanations mention the bible, neither did I say it should be disregarded. To be a christian in my view is independent of religions, churches etc. I have repeatedly said that any human being who loves God with all his soul/spirit and love his neighbour as himself is a christian. Obedience to the will of God is the only criterion for being a christian, it is the only basis for ascent to the kingdom of God.

I'm reading The Grail Message, which, as you know, is fascinating stuff. The offer to answer questions on it is withdrawn then? Hmmmmm?

If you genuinely request for my perception on what you read in The Grail Message and indeed on any topic that is of spiritual importance, I will gladly offer my perception for your examination. Stay blessed!

@m_nwankwo I took time out and re read all your posts and I get the picture you paint even dusted up a copy of In the Light of Truth my dad used to own will be asking you questions about that soon.
You sound really calm and very intelligent so I would like to ask you some questions, what your personal opinions are I would say that I am in a place that Max's friend is and some times I get so mad because using christianity to explain who God was and what he wanted became like fixing a square peg in a round hole.
So I would like to know what you think as regards the following, the first is back to Genesis in the bible do you think it is possible that whoever wrote it had no idea that man existed way longer than he thought or do you think it is not to be taken as it is,generally the whole genesis controversy whats your take on it.(please throw in the issue of the dinosaurs like noah putting a trex in the ark)
Next the translations the bible have gone through, do you think it seriously hinders the way an english reader who is not used to probably the jewish norms and customs to fully understand its context and meaning, for instance if a book were to be written about the Yoruba people in yoruba and over time translated to igbo then hausa and probably ending in effik or Igala do you think the average reader without knowledge of the history of the Yoruba people would be able to have a great command on the book?
Furthermore do you think it is possible that looking at the root of christianity that it was just a way the jews explained God but it gained its popularity probably because of Emperor Constantine and other events that brought it to lime light, I assume you would have read about how most of the books became included and others removed whats your take on that.
It is sometimes a lot easier to take the stance of no God when one keys in the problems of the world to a particular religion and thats the dilemma for most peeps, so I would just like to hear your opinion on this and what you think of christianity generally.
Again not to be argumentative but just to get another view do you think it is possible that the reason for the splits in christianity is because most of it is man made?
Cheers.

One more thing, christians are quick to retort with the answer that one should read the bible and the spirit would lead the person, this encompasses both points I made about translations and it being mostly man made because when I look at the different denominations 30,000 and counting I just cannot believe that the same spirit moves chris oyakhilome and then moves T B Joshua or the pope and all other catholic faithful. So I would like to know what your opinion about that is too.

One more thing, christians are quick to retort with the answer that one should read the bible and the spirit would lead the person, this encompasses both points I made about translations and it being mostly man made because when I look at the different denominations 30,000 and counting I just cannot believe that the same spirit moves chris oyakhilome and then moves T B Joshua or the pope and all other catholic faithful. So I would like to know what your opinion about that is too.

Chrisbenogor:

One more thing, christians are quick to retort with the answer that one should read the bible and the spirit would lead the person, this encompasses both points I made about translations and it being mostly man made because when I look at the different denominations 30,000 and counting I just cannot believe that the same spirit moves chris oyakhilome and then moves T B Joshua or the pope and all other catholic faithful. So I would like to know what your opinion about that is too.

you can get inspiration and direction from reading the bible which is only made possible by the spirit of God. i know psalms 91 speaks of protection so when am afraid i read the passage and i gain confidence. the essence of reading the bible for us to know what God says about our situation no matter your problem the solution is in the bible just find time to read and God would open your and understanding. just try reading the book of JOB and psalms.

@papa_dims thanks for your input but re read my other posts so you would get a feel of my point. There is a thread on this religious section there is a thread about fornication and pre marital sex look for it and you might understand what I mean about the translations its not enough to say go and read the bible or genesis for instance tell me how you would explain the bible saying humanity is 7000 years old when it is obviously older than that whats your take on that.

hate baba God? i dont think so, no matter what,

Tell ur friend God loves him dearly,

@Chrisbenogor

@m_nwankwo I took time out and re read all your posts and I get the picture you paint even dusted up a copy of In the Light of Truth my dad used to own will be asking you questions about that soon.

Thank you for making the effort to read my posts. I wish you strength as you seek for the Truth.

what your personal opinions are I would say that I am in a place that Max's friend is and some times I get so mad because using christianity to explain who God was and what he wanted became like fixing a square peg in a round hole.

You do not need to get mad. Religion and God are not one and the same thing. Jesus, the son of God never established a religion. He taught humankind the will of God, his father. Love God with all your heart and Love your neighbour as yourself is the main message of Jesus, the son of God. He who practices this supreme commandment in his words, thoughts, actions, motives etc will find salvation. Such a person is a christian. Wheather or not he identifies with a particular religion or church is irrelevant. The words from God carry in themselves Love, Justice, Beauty, Perfection, Harmony. Look for these virtues in whatever crosses your path and you will be able to separate the message of God from the distortions of the human mind.

So I would like to know what you think as regards the following, the first is back to Genesis in the bible do you think it is possible that whoever wrote it had no idea that man existed way longer than he thought or do you think it is not to be taken as it is,generally the whole genesis controversy whats your take on it.(please throw in the issue of the dinosaurs like noah putting a trex in the ark)

The important thing is to examine the message, not the messenger or author. Dinosaurs were on earth before the first batch of human beings inhabited the earth. Indeed dinosaurs do not exist at the time humankind first inhabited the earth.

Next the translations the bible have gone through, do you think it seriously hinders the way an english  reader who is not used to probably the jewish norms and customs to fully understand its context and meaning, for instance if a book were to be written about the Yoruba people in yoruba and over time translated to igbo then hausa and probably ending in effik or Igala do you think the average reader without knowledge of the history of the Yoruba people would be able to have a great command on the book?

A translation can not replace the original of any text. However if a seeker examines with his spirt/soul, he or she will be able to percieve the sense of the original inspite of the deficiencies aring from translations. Indeed the soul can easily separate what is true in a sacred texts from all that is untrue. God did not leave us without ability to decipher his true words. Each human being carries the antennae for recognising the Truth. All that we need to do is to use the antennae. Besides, and this may sound strange to you but the wisdom of God ensures that each human being atleast once have heard directly from the mouth of Gods messengers and even his son Jesus. The words lie slumbering in our souls and all we need to do is to call it to life. Yes there are a lot of human additions and distortions but it is not difficult to see through them.

Furthermore do you think it is possible that looking at the root of christianity that it was just a way the jews explained God but it gained its popularity probably because of Emperor Constantine and other events that brought it to lime light, I assume you would have read about how most of the books became included and others removed whats your take on that.

Jesus is the son of God. It is not an accident that he was born among the Jewish people. Maybe someday, I will go into details on this point. The meassage of Jesus, the son of God is not one and the same thing as the message of various denominations of christiandom. Love God with all your heart and Love your neighbour as yourself is the message of Jesus. You can use these simple statements as an infallible standard for correct appraisal of any belief about God. It will be clear that the inquisitions, the murders, the rapes, the blasphemies, the wars etc commited by religious dignitaries/followers in the name of God stands in direct opposition to the will of God, mocks at the Love that Jesus taught in his divine message.

It is sometimes a lot easier to take the stance of no God when one keys in the problems of the world to a particular religion and thats the dilemma for most peeps, so I would just like to hear your opinion on this and what you think of christianity generally.
Again not to be argumentative but just to get another view do you think it is possible that the reason for the splits in christianity is because most of it is man made?

Man used or misapplied the neutral power of God and that is the reason for all the problems. Instead of good, it is evil, instead of love, it is hate, instead of peace it is war. The fault does not lie with God but with each human being who have expressed his free will in contradiction to the will of God, in direct opposition to the selfless Love and adamantine justice of God. Men have free will and they will always express it according to their nature. Thus splits in all religions will contiinue. But a seeker of God should seek the laws of God and live accordingly. That is the only important thing. All else is empheral and will fade away. Thus the leaders and followers of old and new religious movements will be consigned into the dustbin of spiritual history while the WORD OF GOD is eternal and will remain even if the whole creation is to come to ruins.

One more thing, christians are quick to retort with the answer that one should read the bible and the spirit would lead the person, this encompasses both points I made about translations and it being mostly man made because when I look at the different denominations 30,000 and counting I just cannot believe that the same spirit moves chris oyakhilome and then moves T B Joshua or the pope and all other catholic faithful. So I would like to know what your opinion about that is too.

"By their works, ye shall know them". The fruit is determined by the type of seed. Just be alert and you can very easily make the right judjement. It is not appropriate for me to say things about individual churches or their leaders. I have told you earlier on what will help you to recognise the activity of God. Jesus once said "Love God with all your soul and Love your neighbour as your self" The Grail Message admonishes seekers "Keep the hearth of your thoughts pure". These simple statements from Jesus and the Grail Message is the key to the recognition of Gods activity, and ascent into the kingdom of God. Thanks and stay blessed!

We all seem to have issues. The one religious doctrine I have never been able to reconcile myself with is the concept of an eternal hell.God gave us free will. Which means he gave us the ability to follow him if we wish and reject him if we don't. And if we exercise the free will we did not ask for but which he chose to give us, and reject him, we are punished for exercising that free will. There is something profoundly disturbing and sadistic about hell.Where a soul rots for all eternity in torment.Nothing a human being does or does not do justifies that kind of punishment,if it's true that is. Eternity is so mind-boggling I cant quite wrap my mind around something that never ever ever ends. And it doesn't help to say it wasn't intended for man,it was intended for the devil. So why isn't it restricted to the devil then? Why not someplace else for mankind, if they must be punished at all for using the free will God bestowed upon them. If man rejects God,so what?If he refuses to be rejected why give us the ability to do so? But since you equipped man with it why punish them so for exercising their freedom?

Man sure is a funny creature . . . God can never pls him. He gave us freewill, they say they didnt ask for it anyway and its wicked to punish them for exercising it. That does sound odd isnt it? Its like accusing your mom for having you as a child since you never asked to be born anyway.

If God gave us no freewill, the very same people would be accusing God of being a tyrant . . . afterall, why force everyone to obey Him if truly He is God no?

Man never wants to believe in the idea of eternity in hell, well the stark reality is that it exists and God is just . . . giving us yrs to repent, tons of warnings and a stressfree way to avoid the impending judgement after death.
What i find most amusing is the very same people who find it difficult to wrap their minds around an eternal punishment DO WANT to be a part of eternity in heaven . . . regardless of the fact that they have absolutely no interest in satisfying the requirements to gain entry.

Man is a conundrum to himself . . . he wants the freewill to do as he wishes with no interference from God . . . when it comes to eternal judgement suddenly he wants God to remove freewill and railroad everyone into heaven. . . not minding the fact that he claims not to believe it even exists.

@Mad_max

My perceptions on the issues you raised are as follows:

We all seem to have issues. The one religious doctrine I have never been able to reconcile myself with is the concept of an eternal hell.God gave us free will. Which means he gave us the ability to follow him if we wish and reject him if we don't. And if we exercise the free will we did not ask for but which he chose to give us, and reject him, we are punished for exercising that free will.  There is something profoundly disturbing and sadistic about hell.Where a soul rots for all eternity in torment.Nothing a human being does or does not do justifies that kind of punishment,if it's true that is. Eternity is so mind-boggling I can't quite wrap my mind around something that never ever ever ends.

Hell is not eternal. Hell came into existence as a result of the misapplication of the power of God by free will bearing spirits like man. It came into existence with the introduction of the principle of temptation by Satan and and the acceptance of this evil principle by man. Hell is thus not the work of God but the work of man. It is a place where all the evil forms that arose as a result of the misapplication of the power of God dwell. It is an energy center for evil and evil forms. Human beings who produce these evils are also entrapped in this region called hell when they die. There they will experience a thousandfould or more the very evil they served their fellow human beings while on earth. The experience of the evil will help some to come to the recognition of the evil and voluntrirly change inwardly. Thus murderers will be in section for murderers, slanderers will find their own section and they will experience murder and slander until they are disgusted of it and seek for a change. The genuine urge for change will attract the power of God that will enable them to escape these dark regions into less dark regions, then to lighter spheres. Outside of the hell regions, they will continue to mature until such a time they have no more sin, have experiencesd and learnt the laws of God in its varied manifestations, then the spirit would become radiant and free of all non spiritual things, it can enter the kingdom of God. Thus some souls can escape from hell but it is much more difficult to change there than when on earth. Hell is made of matter and like all matter it follows the law of cycle, that is, birth, growth , death and disintegration. If a human spirit is trapped in hell and did not escape before the hell enters the process of disintegration, the human spirit will suffer disintegration with hell and the personal counsciouness it acquired during the course of its development will be diintegrated. That spirit has no name and has no form. That is eternal damnation, that is effacement from the book of life. It is the tree (the ego, the self counsciousness, the form, the human spirit) that is destroyed and not the seed (the human spirit germ or seed). The seed (human spirit germ) will develop into a tree (human spirit) but if the development is not in the sense of the will of God, the tree will reverse back to a seed in the process of disintegration. The spirt germ or seed is pure as God created it  and that is why it cannot be subjected to spiritual death. However the development of a personality, an ego, a self counsciousness, indeed the development into a human spirit is acquired. If this ego is acquired in the sense of the laws of God, it is then permitted to exist eternally in the joyfull gardens of the kingdom of God. If however the ego or spiritual personalty is acquired in disobedience to the laws of God, it will be dinintegrated, a process refered to as eternal damnation. The book of life is the laws of God and a spirit that has been diintegrated cannot be found in the book of life. All evil people on earth are connected with hell. Atimes they uncounsciously reproduce on earth what goes on in hell and normal people are astonished how a human being could do such thing. It is this connection with hell that allow murder, moral perversion, envy etc to flourish on our planet. It is this cancerous connection with hell that makes it impossible for some people to avoid evil, outwardly they appear to have a compulsive disorder, an inability to stop doing evil.

So why isn't it restricted to the devil then? Why not someplace else for mankind, if they must be punished at all for using the free will God bestowed upon them. If man rejects God,so what?If he refuses to be rejected why give us the ability to do so? But since you equipped man with it why punish them so for exercising their freedom?    

Their can be no human spirit without the free will. Free will is a gift of God and its purpose is to enable us devlop from uncounscious spirit germs or seeds to self counscious radiant human spirits. God does not punish man. The laws of God return to each one the fruits of the seeds we have sown. By tasting the fruit of the seeds we sow, we will know whether it is bitter or sweet. Bitter fruits will result in us avoiding bitter seeds and sweet fruits will enable us to sow only sweet seeds. In that way we develop and vouluntrily desire only sweet seeds. Free will means that the choice is free but the consequences of the choice cannot be avoided. Free will goes with responsibility. Therefore hell is a consequnce of our free will. If humankind change their free will and live by the laws of God, hell will wither away and cease to exist. Hell is the work of man and not a divine institution. Stay blessed.

davidylan:

Man sure is a funny creature . . . God can never please him. He gave us freewill, they say they didnt ask for it anyway and its wicked to punish them for exercising it. That does sound odd isnt it? Its like accusing your mom for having you as a child since you never asked to be born anyway.

If God gave us no freewill, the very same people would be accusing God of being a tyrant . . . afterall, why force everyone to obey Him if truly He is God no?

Man never wants to believe in the idea of eternity in hell, well the stark reality is that it exists and God is just . . . giving us years to repent, tons of warnings and a stressfree way to avoid the impending judgement after death.
What i find most amusing is the very same people who find it difficult to wrap their minds around an eternal punishment DO WANT to be a part of eternity in heaven . . . regardless of the fact that they have absolutely no interest in satisfying the requirements to gain entry.

Man is a conundrum to himself . . . he wants the freewill to do as he wishes with no interference from God . . . when it comes to eternal judgement suddenly he wants God to remove freewill and railroad everyone into heaven. . . not minding the fact that he claims not to believe it even exists.

all this talk na your own opinion, who ever told you that he wants to go to heaven? na you sabi. . . . . . . . . . .

There is nothing like hell or heaven. All there is is GOD. Just like the ocean is made up of drops of water, God is made up of all of us. All the power in this world or anywhere belongs to God including the one the devil uses.
Nobody needs to read the bible or koran before God speaks to him or her. Meditate tonight and I bet you God will speak to you in his own way.

@labo

It would be wonderful if there were no hell. I wouldn't care if heaven didn't exist if hell didn't. Who asked for either?

your friend is just conflicted. how can u hate a being u doubt exists. he is on the path to being an agnostic

Mad_Max:

@labo

It would be wonderful if there were no hell. I wouldn't care if heaven didn't exist if hell didn't. Who asked for either?

True. I wonder the same myself. Salvation is wonderful. But why is it so hard? And so elitist? Since it isn't earned, why should we qualify because we happen to born into the religion. What about the billons born elsewhere. It would be interesting to have an answer to that.

@Mad_Max,
Hi. First, I think your friend believes in God alright.
[He blames God for all the misery in the world and wonders why He allows it to happen. He says life is smoother and 'less complicated' without God in it. 'I've heard all your arguments before,' he says, 'and they tire me.' These are his grouses:, ]

Having cleared that, I think the problem is that he/she does't understand God. I wont give you a psalm and a verse to make all your friend's questions go away cos they wont. what I can say is that he/she should do these which I have done myself:

1.have asincere longing to better understand God- it is not enough to haughtily dismiss what you do not understand. Pls be completely open to learn or else you wont. this is not a matter of theology, it is life and death.


2. Your friend should seek the truth in humility- talk to a pastor, a teacher of the word & take note of what he says even when you do not immediately believe them- aha, dont say "why should I talk to him if I wont believe him" simple.some things will not make sense at this stage in your quest, or on this side of life for that matter. Think about those times when your parents corrected you with the rod? it was not pleasant but it was an effective way to keep you on the correct path. This is not an analogy to why bad things happen. I am simply saying that just like we may not have understood then why they were so"hard on us "ometimes, now we can almost thank them for some of those strokes. So, give your self time while you are learning.

3. Ask God- yes, just talk to Him the way you have been talking to your spouse, or fiance, trying to get to know him/her from being together often, communicating and listening. You wouldnt go out and marry a girl basedon what ppl say, however good. Tell God for instance that you want to understand Him. Talk to Him every morning as though He was really there. Let Him know you are intrested in Him.

4. Progress a step at a time- ask one question at a time and do not weary your self with trying to figure it out. move on if you sont quite understand anything. try not to run before you have crawled. Be gentle with your self


For me these steps have worked before when I had problems believing in the gift of "speaking in tongues"
I started out wrong though but learnt these along the way; I wanted badly to recieve it if it was true. I talked to a bro ther butwouldnt take what he said, I argued so much in fact, that they had to refer me to other leaders, I argue d at every opportunity untill I decieded to just learn in humility what it was and how I too could recieve it. I als stopped argueing about it. I rather listened to other people and refused to criticize how it was with them. I asked God for His Spirit. When I finally recieved Him, no one laid a hand on me, it was in the middle of my living room and it was awesome. How can anyone ask me to convience them that the Gift of speaking in unknown tongues is real. I cant, I just know for myself!
So too I cant tell you that God is real, or He is good in spite of all around us,, I can only say that I just know for me, and you can know for you too. I can quote a few scriptures to support this knowing and try to JUSTIFY it for someone, but when I am almost loosing it,as sometimes happen I try to remember what I know, that which no one can take from me and then maybe I look to His word to support this knowing.

So, I guess I am saying that any one can know/understand God for themselves if they are humble enough to learn.

Hope this helps.

is it possible one hates his creature, or is your friend conscious of what doing?

is it possible one hates his creator, or is your friend conscious of what he or she means

max u must be very concerned about your friend.This life is a puzzle,nobody is sure of anything because we really don't know the truth,we don't know the true religion but i think wherever you find yourself,just do as they have been doing as long as it keeps you going.then the sin aspect,i think whatever pricks our conscience especially when we have done something wrong is a sin.all fingers are not equal so the aspect of china and america,i don't understand.the americans believe so much in God and i believe it has been working for them.you can even testify to it on their dollar.whatever you feel is right,do it.if you don't believe in GOD,and you don't feel bad about it,fine!if everyone comes out and tell you of his/her experiences in life,i mean, i have mine but what difference does it make?i know some people don't believe GOD would just stay in heaven and watch things go wrong,dear,some things have to go wrong to pave way for something better.a lot of us would fight God if we ever saw him,GOD IS AN UNSEEN GUEST.ASK YOURSELF,WHERE DID HE REALLY COME FROM?YES,(some goose bumps here)and the power to make things?thats why we should fear him no matter what.so max your friend has the right to believe what he wants,let his faith see him through

If your friend hates God, make e go die. I sure say e don tire for life b dat

be careful of ur friend.

@olrotimi
Be careful how? E wan carry me do juju or wetin?

@nomanicole and fifio :
I feel you.

@Chrisbenogor:

We seem to have the same issues, and similar perspective on things. You were dusting up The Grail Message, you said. What's your take on it?