deols: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." 
4:20-21

@sissie. This is d verse for no.3

Hmm...am sincerely short of words wit ds!

onegig: The Prophet(SAW) did go to the open fields to empty their bowels back then. No toilet facilities existed that was their toilets.


Wouldn't it be nice i also follow the Prophet's ways and go to Oshodi under bridge to do "it" because the Prophet did same during their time. There's no geographical difference in this also.

The Prophet rode an Horse to Mecca for Hajj during his time. Why aren't Muslims climbing Horses to Hajj cause that's exactly what the Prophet did?


They wrote with sticks on scrolls back then, you should also ditch writing verses or reading them from you tablet because he never used that.


Deols.. When they said Islam was for yesterday, today and tomorrow. It meant the basic religious laws plus common sense. Also there's no emphasis on the medium or the asthetics. The act here is the main issue not the medium as long as the medium used is "halal".

Can you see the comparative differences? You can't stick to the past and their ways. Girls aged 9 as at then must have attained puberty, matured and be able to give birth without complications. We can't say same for girls of nowadays. Anyone who indulges in such at this age is a pedophile and should be behind bars. No two ways. I can't say what would happen in the next 1000 years. Maybe the body anatomy of humans might have changed to warrant such but at present there's simply no justification and anyone who indulges in such is not following the path of the Prophet but his own perverted desires.

Youvare missing the point I was making. We all know that the sunnah we talk about arent in advancements but the socio-religious and political life.

But If I will use ur analogy, then we may as well throw out every aspect of his sunnah and do what the 'world' is into now.

tbaba1234:

Faith is actually easy to have. The first step is to have an intellectual humility. The Quran guarantees that if you come to it with the right attitude, you will find no doubt.

Once you come to the realization that this book is beyond the productive capacity of a man and there are many ways of exploring this. Then, an intellectual basis is there.

The next part is the spiritual, this comes from prayer and other spiritual activities.

Intellectual knowledge without the spiritual is weak faith.

I can probably talk at length about why the Quran is so awesome but if I do not take care of my spiritual life, it can drop rather easily.

Therefore, It can fluctuate. Some people fluctuations are worse than others.

Faith aside, the "intellectual" knowledge and specifics within the faith are whack.

- Attn Men, you'll get wide-eyed mystical virgin creatures in heaven. As for you ladies, you'll keep with your worldly husbands and be content in sharing them with the aforementioned mystical virgins. Also, you'll need to make room for ladies whose husbands didn't make the cut (went to hell), and spinsters who've never had partners. Congratulations!

* This production is made possible by banning womanly jealousy in heaven. You're welcome.

- In case of discipline needs, you can hit her with *specified size and texture of object here*, but not in the face ( that would be visible, and you wouldn't want to disrupt her beauty anyway, would you?) Don't hurt her too much now. A "tap" is sufficient in teaching her a lesson.

- Also as a discipline tactic, you can vacate her bed and restrict sex (not a problem if you have a few wives handy, or your "right hand possesses" a slave). Dare she try that herself, and holy Angels will pause in their reverence of God to continuously curse her for it.

- A women's property is her own, and her contributions to her own family are considered charity. But worry not, she can't make a penny w/o your permission.

- You can take up to four wives. But do be just! If you have a wife and would like to take another, no consultation with wife #1 is necessary. After all, it's her fault for failing to add a no harem clause in her marriage contract.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Like I said, it's all in the details. And what strange details!

EnlightenedSoul:

Faith aside, the "intellectual" knowledge and specifics within the faith are whack.

- Attn Men, you'll get wide-eyed mystical virgin creatures in heaven. As for you ladies, you'll keep with your worldly husbands and be content in sharing them with the aforementioned mystical virgins. Also, you'll need to make room for ladies whose husbands didn't make the cut (went to hell), and spinsters who've never had partners. Congratulations!

* This production is made possible by banning womanly jealousy in heaven. You're welcome.

- In case of discipline needs, you can hit her with *specified size and texture of object here*, but not in the face ( that would be visible, and you wouldn't want to disrupt her beauty anyway, would you?) Don't hurt her too much now. A "tap" is sufficient in teaching her a lesson.

- Also as a discipline tactic, you can vacate her bed and restrict sex (not a problem if you have a few wives handy, or your "right hand possesses" a slave). Dare she try that herself, and holy Angels will pause in their reverence of God to continuously curse her for it.

- A women's property is her own, and her contributions to her own family are considered charity. But worry not, she can't make a penny w/o your permission.

- You can take up to four wives. But do be just! If you have a wife and would like to take another, no consultation with wife #1 is necessary. After all, it's her fault for failing to add a no harem clause in her marriage contract.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Like I said, it's all in the details. And what strange details!

heeiii, iyaako mi, you really really really should stop thinking like this. I have doubts too, but i get my peace from submitting fully to Allah's will. Let's not dabble too much into what we do not really understand(issues of the hereafter), apply common sense where we should/can and leave the rest to God.

Is enlightenedsoul a Muslim?

deols:

Youvare missing the point I was making. We all know that the sunnah we talk about arent in advancements but the socio-religious and political life.

But If I will use ur analogy, then we may as well throw out every aspect of his sunnah and do what the 'world' is into now.

Give examples... Marriage to Aisha at that age can't be termed Sunnah.

Marriage on its own was an obligatory aspect entrusted on all Muslims who are capable. The only rule there was marrying someone who has "balaga" i.e matured. Question we should ask is was she matured? Age is a relative thing coupled with the poor date keeping skills back then. You can't use age(numbers) to judge maturity. It's impossible. You should know better.

Also i can't wrap my head around how an obligatory thing became a Sunnah also.

Shouldn't those trying to cover this as Sunnah not follow it up to the hilt and marry a widow aged 60 or so based on some sources just like the Prophet did with Sawuda (AS) so that they can complete and follow exactly what he did.

So can you see their fallacies? Man is the problem not the rules.

onegig: Give examples... Marriage to Aisha at that age can't be termed Sunnah.

Marriage on its own was an obligatory aspect entrusted on all Muslims who are capable. So i can't wrap my head around how an obligatory thing became a Sunnah also.

Shouldn't those trying to cover this as Sunnah not follow it up to the hilt and marry a widow aged 60 or so based on some sources just like the Prophet did with Sawuda (AS) so that they can complete and follow exactly what he did.

So can you see their fallacies? Man is the problem not the rules.

We should probably start looking for 60 year olds to marry.

tbaba1234:

We should probably start looking for 60 year olds to marry.

Yes o. So we can be Prophetlike in all actions. I guess Yerima should hear this. He wants to follow the footsteps. He should probably find a 60 year old and marry to balance the equation.

ameenahz:

heeiii, iyaako mi, you really really really should stop thinking like this. I have doubts too, but i get my peace from submitting fully to Allah's will. Let's not dabble too much into what we do not really understand(issues of the hereafter), apply common sense where we should/can and leave the rest to God.

Sis, our brains are for thinking and reasoning. Blind faith and submission is challenging enough w/o having to overlook tons of dubious and yet accepted details of religious "knowledge". I'm glad you can find peace, truly

deols: Is enlightenedsoul a Muslim?

If not in practice, then by birth.

onegig: Give examples... Marriage to Aisha at that age can't be termed Sunnah.

Marriage on its own was an obligatory aspect entrusted on all Muslims who are capable. The only rule there was marrying someone who has "balaga" i.e matured. Question we should ask is was she matured? Age is a relative thing coupled with the poor date keeping skills back then. You can't use age(numbers) to judge maturity. It's impossible. You should know better.

Also i can't wrap my head around how an obligatory thing became a Sunnah also.

Shouldn't those trying to cover this as Sunnah not follow it up to the hilt and marry a widow aged 60 or so based on some sources just like the Prophet did with Sawuda (AS) so that they can complete and follow exactly what he did.

So can you see their fallacies? Man is the problem not the rules.

Yea,well sed broda!d truth is dat ISLAM is PERFECT buh we muslims aint...some men r sooooo selfish n self centred, dey ONLY hammer on tins dt favor them...am sure dey won't lik d part of marryin aged widows as d prophet(SAW) did,buh dey wil beat their chests 100tyms wn it coms 2marryin young girls afta their wives...their motives of marryin is usually 4 their selfish & lustful desires!!!
Dats y a woman shld just do her own part & leave d rest 4 Allah(d most Just,all seer& al knower)

Deols...about the equity of a thing. This verse sums it up.
"on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings
about through it a great deal
of good. (The Noble Quran,
4:19)"


Note the word equity.


As for the hadiths listed. I am still reading your hadiths and trying to get the best possible direct answers to them. However when ever i see a contentious hadith. All i do is go back to the QURAN and see if its position corresponds with what the Hadith says.
The QURAN is the last authority and when you look at most of this contentious hadiths and they seem illogical or maybe their interpretation, word used run contrary to what the QURAN says. It's in the best interest to discard such Hadiths and follow what's in the Holy Book.

deols:
Interestingly, there is no punishment slated for the man who goes against this contract.

there is no punishment either for a monogamist who decides to divorce his wife and marry another.

^^^^ That's why we have the Sharia courts to abdicate in such cases. It's now left for parties involved to take such cases there and abide by the justice dispensed.

Divorces would happen. People would disagree, fight and go seperate ways. The courts are there. They aren't perfect but would subject each case to the highest level of integrity. Expecting a Utopian religious system is what is impossible.

onegig: ^^^^ That's why we have the Sharia courts to abdicate in such cases. It's now left for parties involved to take such cases there and abide by the justice dispensed.

Divorces would happen. People would disagree, fight and go seperate ways. The courts are there. They aren't perfect but would subject each case to the highest level of integrity. Expecting a Utopian religious system is what is impossible.

exactly my point. so why outlaw polygyny?

aalymah:
Yea,well sed broda!d truth is dat ISLAM is PERFECT buh we muslims aint...some men r sooooo selfish n self centred, dey ONLY hammer on tins dt favor them...am sure dey won't lik d part of marryin aged widows as d prophet(SAW) did,buh dey wil beat their chests 100tyms wn it coms 2marryin young girls afta their wives...their motives of marryin is usually 4 their selfish & lustful desires!!!
Dats y a woman shld just do her own part & leave d rest 4 Allah(d most Just,all seer& al knower)

A woman should never just leave things. Most of what happens is because we have fewer women in the know.

Why is the world the way it is? It's because the women/mothers went to sleep and for muslims this even portends much more crisis as "some" people have used all their available means to relegate the women to the background.

Now we have succeeded in annihilating half of the ummah i.e the females who are the most important fabric of any society to second class citizens not by the wish and instructions of God but the personal gain and upside down interpretation of some.

The first word God related to the Prophet was "read". He never said "men read" but what do we have now. Women are not only not to be seen but never heard also. Some believe they should not be educated and bring the most silliest excuses you can ever find.

But we tend to forget the basic fact. That with education i.e knowledge comes wisdom. Which means the mothers who are the first and continous teachers of the muslim child is an illiterate and lacks the capacity to impact any useful knowledge to them. So tell me. Can you ever give what you don't have?

Please read and understand what the religion says. Not what an alfa somewhere interprets it to be. It's enjoined on you to read yourself and know what's right..

If you don't know what your rights are, how then can you actually fight for them?

If you don't know what the Right things are , how do you teach you male children to grow up and be respecters of women just like the Prophet was? The family is the basic unit of any society. If most families get it right, then we would have better and just men in future.

deols:
4. Women are deficient in Intelligence. I could have agreed with this if I I had not met very dumb men.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) on 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone MORE DEFICIENT IN INTELLIGENCE and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301)

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Alright, I just saw this. The hadith is not talking about a deficiency in mental activity, infact it was clarified at the end.

Aalymah,
See this explanation


Sheikh Salman al-Oadah )

When Islam discusses the deficiencies of women, it is neither insulting them nor belittling them. Some men, unfortunately, do precisely that when they quote the words of the Prophet (peace be upon him) that women "have a deficiency in their intellect and their religion". They take these words out of context as a means of oppressing women and putting them down.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) meant something quite different. He said: "I have never seen among those who have a deficiency in their intellect and their religion anyone more capable than women of swaying the intellect of the most determined of men." He is actually asserting here the power of women to influence men and sway their opinion. This is one of the distinctions that women, in their natures, have.

He then went on to define precisely what he meant by these deficiencies. In the remainder of the hadîth, some women asked him: "O Messenger of Allah, what is this deficiency in our intelligence and religion?" He replied: "Isn't it that a woman's testimony as a witness is half of the testimony of man?" They said: "Yes." He said: "This, then, is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that when she is in her menses, she leaves off prayers and fasting?" They said: "Yes." He said: "This is the deficiency in her religion."

These are matters of Islamic Law. A woman is neither sinful nor blameworthy because of the prayers and fasts that she misses. She, in fact, receives blessings by obeying Allah and abstaining from those acts while she is menstruating. Her testimony as a witness is half that of men only in matters wherein she is generally less versed than men. In other matters wherein women have particular knowledge, like fosterage and virginity, the testimony of a woman is accepted but not that of a man.

Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) attested to the perfect character of four women: Mary, Âsiyah the wife of Pharaoh, Fâtimah, and Khadîjah.

He definitely did not mean that these women did not go through menstruation. He was referring to their good character, strength of intellect, and soundness of opinion.

Source:http://www.islamtoday.net/english/showme_weekly_2003.cfm?cat_id=30&sub_cat_id=524

Sheikh G.F. Haddad )
The problem here is the misconception about the meaning. Even the plainest statement can become completely incoherent on the tongue of a retarded person or a pathological liar. The hadith here uses two figures of speech: the first is hyperbole (mubalagha) meaning exaggeration in the words “even a prudent, sensible man might be led astray by some of you” i.e. a fortiori an ordinary man. The second figure is synechdoche (majaz mursal) consisting in using the whole for the part: intelligence to mean the specific legal testimony of a woman, and religion to mean the prayer and fast at the time of menses.


Numerous verses and other narrations stress that the reward of women equals that of men even if their acts differ. So this particular narration is not meant literally but as an acknowledgment of the power women wield over men while ostensibly less active in the public and spiritual spheres.

However, the real import of the hadith - spoken at the Farewell Pilgrimage - and its actual context was that the Prophet (peace be upon him) challenged the women that were present to realize that unless they helped raise money with their gold and jewelry, they would miss the reward of men waging jihad as well as show ingratitude.In the full version of the hadith the Prophet also orders the women to ask forgiveness and desist from frequently cursing their husbands. All this was spoken at a time of

(1) the impending departure of the latter on jihad (2) the impending departure of the Prophet from this world and (3) the fact that “Cursing the believer is like killing him.”

But the Prophet (peace be upon him) was also being playful in his use of strong terms to impress this teaching on the listeners. Ruqayyah Waris Maqsud writes, “After the Farewell Pilgrimage at the Eid prayer, the Prophet walked past the men leaning on Bilal's arm, and came to the rows of women behind them. Bilal spread out a cloth and the Prophet urged the women to be generous with their gifts of charity, for when he had been allowed a glimpse into the flames of Hell, he had noted that most of the people being tormented there were women.

The women were outraged, and one of them instantly stood up boldly and demanded to know why that was so. 'Because,' he replied, 'you women grumble so much, and show ingratitude to your husbands! Even if the poor fellows spent all their lives doing good things for you, you have only to be upset at the least thing and you will say, 'I have never received any good from you!' (Bukhari 1.28, recorded by Ibn Abbas - who was present on that occasion as a child).

At that the women began vigorously to pull off their rings and ear-rings, and throw them into Bilal's cloth.”

(source:  fatwa by shaykh G.F. Haddad atwww.livingislam.org)My own note:

The reward of women equals that of men even if their acts differ , example:                                          

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, says in this regard, addressing women: “Take care of your home for that is your Jihad.” (Musnad Ahmad). Jihad is the epitome of Islamic life. Declaring home-making asJihad for women is giving it the highest possible status in an Islamic society.

exactly my point. so why outlaw polygyny?

No one wants it outlawed. Just a realignment of things to state it in the clearest terms for what it is. I.e

1. It carries a weighty clause which is very hard if not impossible to fulfil.

2. It's not an option for men to satisfy their desires and it's not expressly permissible..... Go check the QURAN. When God mentions polygyny, check the next verse and you would see orphans and widows which shows this is targeted at correcting a social problem and not creating new ones and must only be indulged in at great discretion.

3. If the above facts holds true and divorce must happen. Then the intent must be justifiable before it is granted. You can't just divorce because you want to for the sake of it. There must be a reason and since polygyny can't be used as an "excuse to test other waters". It can not be used as a justification for wanting a divorce. Cest fini.

Make this known to men and you would see how things would change. A society lives to protect its members and the sharia system can always accommodate such rules as long as they don't run contrary to God's injunctions to protect the women from problems and injustices arising from coerced inclusion in a polygamous setting and also protect the men from the pains of the hearafter due to this injustice.


... But who would listen when majority of the people are bent on suiting and using such injunctions for their personal gains?

I have to get to bed. Una don dey make me type epistle . Whew!!! Salam.

Women: Are Women Deficient ?   (fatwa by the scholars of www.ourdialogue.com)

My daughter keeps asking me about the Hadith that women are deficient in mental ability and in religion. Could you please explain it? Why does the Prophet, peace be upon him, say that most women will be in hell?

Answer:

Your daughter is not alone. Many are those who question the meaning it conveys. This is largely due to the fact that the Hadith is quoted only in part and the relevant statement is cited out of context. People always attribute to the Prophet, peace be upon him, the suggestion that women are inferior to men on grounds of a deficient mind a lack of faith. This is far from true.Let us look at the Hadith in full: “On the occasion of Eid, either that of sacrifice or that of ending the fast, the Prophet, peace be upon him, went to the prayer place, and then went to speak to women and he said: “Ladies! I have not seen people deficient in mind and religion yet can get away with a rational man’s mind like any one of you.” They asked: “How are we deficient in mind and religion, Messenger of God?” He said: “Is it not true that a woman’s testimony counts as half that of a man?” When they answered in the affirmative, he said: “This is her mental deficiency. Is it not true that when a woman is in her period she neither prays nor fasts?” They again answered in the affirmative. He said: “This is her religious deficiency.” (Related by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

To start with, the Prophet, peace be upon him, was speaking to a congregation of women on a joyous occasion. Exemplary in his care for others, particularly his companions, and kind and compassionate as he was, it is inconceivable that he would insult them by such a statement, if he meant it as a statement of fact, like some of us do. The Prophet, peace be upon him, simply used this phrase “deficient in mind and religion” to alert them to what he wanted to say to them. The Prophet, peace be upon him, frequently uses such a method, inserting some words that may not be relevant to the point he wants to stress, so that they serve to attract the attention of his audience. Furthermore, his statement expresses amazement at a well-known situation, when a man is infatuated by a woman to the extent that his behavior changes in character. He may be wise and intelligent, yet he could easily behave in a way that is inconsistent with his intelligence and wisdom when he is so infatuated. This is a case where a woman who is generally weaker than a man can control him.

The Hadith mentions that the Prophet’s women audience asked him to clarify what he said. His clarification pinpoints certain aspects that suggest no inferiority whatsoever. The mental deficiency is related to the fact that in certain cases, two women witnesses are required in place of one-man witness. This has to do with the role of each of the two sexes in Islamic society. It is no reflection on a woman’s mental ability.

As for religious deficiency, the Prophet, peace be upon him, states the fact that a woman is exempt from prayer and fasting when she is in menstruation. While God gives a woman the reward for prayer and fasting as if she has done them, since she stops only because of her condition and in response to God’s orders, still the fact that she does not fulfill these duties means that her worship is less in terms of what she offers. It does not mean that she is a lesser believer.As for a relevant statement of fact in this regard, the Prophet, peace be upon him, says, “Women are full sisters of men.” In the Arabic text, the Prophet, peace be upon him, uses here a word, which implies total similarity and equivalence. Hence, the Prophet’s statement suggests no inferiority attached to women. The Qur’an and the Sunnah assign the same duties to both men and women, and promise them the same reward. If this does not mean the same status, I would like to know what does.


May I add here that the translation of this Hadith as quoted by you is wrong, because it splits the relevant sentence and gives the Prophet's words in such a way that they appear to make a statement of fact. This is wrong, as I have explained.As for the other part, a full translation of it goes as follows: “‚I have seen hell and I have never seen any thing more horrific than what I saw then. I also saw that the majority of its dwellers are women. ‚ They asked: “On what grounds, Messenger of God? He said: “By their denial.‚ They said: “Their denial of God?‚ He answered: “No. Their denial of their spouses and their denial of kindness. You may be kind to one of them all the time, but when she finds fault with you she says: I have never received any kindness from you. ‚”To start with, the Hadith does not say that most women are in hell. It says that the majority of hell dwellers are women, which simply signifies that more women fail in this worldly test than men. Then the Prophet, peace be upon him, points out their failure, which is not based on denying God. Rather, it is denying kindness, particularly in marital situations. The Prophet, peace be upon him, has pointed this out in more than one Hadith, warning women against grumbling and frequent complaints. He is also warning them here against denying kindness by their husbands, highlighting a failing that is often expressed in denying past kindness.The Hadith shows that women can easily avoid such a destiny by being fair and appreciative of kindness. They should always be grateful to God for what He has given them and also be appreciative of any kindness done to them by others, particularly those with whom they live, be they their husbands, parents or other relatives.

 

 

Source:

 

http://www.ourdialogue.com/Ws1.htm

deols if you are interested in discussing with me out of NL please send an email, i want to believe you have my email.

I hope this helps.

Deols,

Whenever, a hadith isn't clear or rubs off the wrong way. Remember,

1. It was translated to english.

2. It might have been transmitted through many sources, some have more complete detail than others.

3. Seek a scholar or scholars who have studied hadith and understand its context. Hadiths could be very contextual. The prophet gives advice to one person and a completely different advice to another.

Aisha RA led men and was a teacher to men. They took advice on public policy from her. Do you think, they would do that if they felt she was not intelligent??

Sissie:

there is no punishment either for a monogamist who decides to divorce his wife and marry another.

Indeed, but if i am not mistaken, divorce is said to be highly disliked by Allah even though permissible, then if so, divorce should not arise from flimsy excuses like she doesn't know how to cook or she is dirty

I agree with onegig on the need to go to the shariah court, but really, all that could be avoided, if each party has a good understanding of their responsibilities towards each other, and especially, towards Allah (SWT).

We might not have a hadd for divorcing for flimsy excuses, but if the man, due to is want to divorce his wife for no just reason or wants to marry another, makes life unbearable for his wife, such that she wishes to seek divorce as stated explicitly in Quran 4;19, then indeed, he has committed a sin and will be punished.

I don't believe Islam allows changing of wives like changing a TV channel, and that is why it becomes necessary to assess who ever you want to get married to and not just jump into marriage for the sake of it.

this is a nice thread and i have learning a lot from it

Can i ask two questions

Is there a sharia court in the southern part of the country

also why has yerima's divorced wives not taken him to sharia court as he seems to be twisting a part of the holy book

Good work, Deols for starting this thread.

deols: I cant give replies to all the posts but i have to say these.

*I don't think that the mesaage of Islam was meant to be vague, and not understandable. It is wrong to want to push things under the carpet uaing fear as a mechamism or by trying to claim that we dont have the capacity for understanding them. I think there is a reason the Quran explains jannah to us- so we would work for it. You cant tell me that its explanation is not good enough anymore and that the human nature isnt good enough to give an understanding.

True, but not everything can be explained, there are just some things beyond our understanding, and most of these things, have little to do with our responsibilities in this life to our creator. The Jannah example is a good one, we know Allah promised us Jannah, He promised we would be pleased therein and even though with some hints to what is inside, He still said, there are things just beyond our scope, and what we know of Allah, is that He fulfill His promise, and He said He would never deprive the reward of an obedient servant, male or female.

deols:
I also noticed that many of the replies did not look at my concerns. Giving vague and indirect answers are not helpful in any way.

tbaba1234 said something about men who dont have enough resources but go into polygyny. The thing is, there is no law that says they MUST have enough resources. They dont even need to LOVE their wives/love them equally for that matter. One could be favoured and the others were expected to just accept.

Actually, there is a law, and this is basically a fiqh issue, and it was what i posted earlier based on the maliki school of thought. And this happens to be part of the wajib aspect of ploygyny.
Who said you don't need to love your wife? there are reports of the prophet(SAW) in regards to love for Khadijah(r.a) and Aisha (r.a). Allah categorigally stated that love between spouses is one of his signs, so love is an integral part of marriage.
The reality of polygyny, is that you cannot be just in terms of love amongst your wives, and this is excused by Allah in Qur'an 4:129, this should not be mixed with the condition of justice in Qura'an 4:3. The former is explained interms of love and intimate relation, while the latter is explained in terms of provision and security. A good exmple is the love of the prophet for Khadijah(r.a), relative to others.

deols:
There is a hadith I know of where a man was said to av gone to the prophet, complaining that he was impoverished. The prophet told him to get married. He went back after a while and the prophet told him to get married again. This is the hadith poverty-stricken people quote for engaging in polygyny.

LOL @ poverty-stricken people...there is also an hadith that states one not capable of marrying, should engage in fasting...we should know that hadiths are not looked at in isolation, tbaba made good points i regards to hadith.

deols:
Still, the fact that some other people got married to children does not make it right. I believe that, someone providing us with the best of examples would give us something that is the best. I dont know if this point is misunderstood or if people are deliberately ignoring it. And if the prophet's message or example was only for the sunny regions, then u are against the belief that Islam is not a religion of arabs.

The best of mankind, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) married a mature Aisha (r.a), the condition for marriage is maturity, stated clearly in the Qur'an, what age each civilization and society defines as mature for marriage varies. Our reality is quite different, we cannot possibly pass a judgement based on our present civilization. If you were present during the time of the Prophet, you would be married. i remember talking to my mom about marriage and she said during her time, a girl who marries at the age of 18 or more is considered marrying late...

What i can say in regards to marrying a minor in our present reality is that, it is not acceptable, our society still see them as children, they still need to go to school, get a degree and get a job. But still, there are other society that does not see them as such, for example, i know a man (non Nigerian) who married a 13 year old as a second wife, i find it rather disturbing at first, but later understood that was the reality she was brought up in, now she is a mother, and i see her frequently without any issues (apparently). Personally, I cannot marry such, what can I possibly discuss with a 13year old?! How do we even relate?

deols:
Please I did not plan to argue these points, I was in fact hoping that you would tell me things that would make me feel better about my faith. Please, you should not give me responses that insult my intelligence and thereby make my situation worse. Thanks.

I acknowledge these issues need to be adequately discussed and explained, there are lots of misconceptions, and there is lack of adequate knowledge and understanding in our society to dispel them, so many individuals, especially women are suffering silently, though Allah will reward them for their patience and perseverance to remain true to the deen, we still need to let Muslims know and practice Islam appropriately.

EnlightenedSoul:

It is difficult to have a conversation when your mind is made up. Let us apply common sense then.

We will take it step by step.

Is a man supposed to leave his bed if his wife is acting crazy first? or is he supposed to talk to her and find a way to solve the issue first..

Lesson: be patient with her, don't act rashly, try to understand. Don't scream, don't scold. Just admonish and talk.

Is it not true that leaving the bed is only abandoned after his best efforts have failed?? This could take months depending.

Lesson: escalate but continue trying to get through to her.

And no, a woman is not cursed unless

I. She is starving her husband continously for no reason (not sick, exhausted, fasting or menses)
Ii. He is upset with her.

The husband has that right on her and she has that right on him.

A man will also be punished for his failures to satisfy his wife.

Is it not also true that on no account must he cause her pain??

At all!!

These are examples of punishments meted out to those who beat wives

http://www.aninews.in/newsdetail4/story130755/saudi-arabia-gives-20-lashes-punishment-to-man-for-beating-wife.html

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/248662/saudi-ordered-read-quran-wife.html

It is completely haram to abuse you wife or even cause her pain/injury.

The quran advises the woman dealing with a crazy husband to call a meeting with stakeholders and resolve the issues either way, divorce or staying .

You will ask, why is she not abandoning his bed too?? This is a person already acting crazy, do you think, it is wise to provoke him further??

Forget your prejudices for a while and just think.

deols:

Very funny question.

After laughing, could we have an answer?

tbaba1234:

We should probably start looking for 60 year olds to marry.

Lol I wish u good luck on that!

EnlightenedSoul:

Sis, our brains are for thinking and reasoning. Blind faith and submission is challenging enough w/o having to overlook tons of dubious and yet accepted details of religious "knowledge". I'm glad you can find peace, truly

well, call it whatever you choose to call it, i am happy. I am satisfied with Islam and in shaa Allah, i'll live by it till the day i breath my last. I can reason too. I have only chosen to put my faith in Him. If you think like this, why do you believe there is a God in the first place? Reasoning is good, yes. We should apply common sense, yes. But we should know our boundary when it comes to things we can not really offer explanations for

deols:
4. Women are deficient in Intelligence. I could have agreed with this if I I had not met very dumb men.

U might want to check on this m.livescience.com/7154-men-smarter-women-scientist-claims.html theories like the one u are proposing can only be determined using scientific methods, your one person observations cannot really serve as evidence, I remember one lady in the politics section, kobojunkie, her views seemed very intelligent compared to a majority of men posting, maybe we are both . . . Batt low

tbaba1234: Women: Are Women Deficient ?   (fatwa by the scholars of www.ourdialogue.com)

My daughter keeps asking me about the Hadith that women are deficient in mental ability and in religion. Could you please explain it? Why does the Prophet, peace be upon him, say that most women will be in hell?

Answer:

Your daughter is not alone. Many are those who question the meaning it conveys. This is largely due to the fact that the Hadith is quoted only in part and the relevant statement is cited out of context. People always attribute to the Prophet, peace be upon him, the suggestion that women are inferior to men on grounds of a deficient mind a lack of faith. This is far from true.Let us look at the Hadith in full: “On the occasion of Eid, either that of sacrifice or that of ending the fast, the Prophet, peace be upon him, went to the prayer place, and then went to speak to women and he said: “Ladies! I have not seen people deficient in mind and religion yet can get away with a rational man’s mind like any one of you.” They asked: “How are we deficient in mind and religion, Messenger of God?” He said: “Is it not true that a woman’s testimony counts as half that of a man?” When they answered in the affirmative, he said: “This is her mental deficiency. Is it not true that when a woman is in her period she neither prays nor fasts?” They again answered in the affirmative. He said: “This is her religious deficiency.” (Related by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

To start with, the Prophet, peace be upon him, was speaking to a congregation of women on a joyous occasion. Exemplary in his care for others, particularly his companions, and kind and compassionate as he was, it is inconceivable that he would insult them by such a statement, if he meant it as a statement of fact, like some of us do. The Prophet, peace be upon him, simply used this phrase “deficient in mind and religion” to alert them to what he wanted to say to them. The Prophet, peace be upon him, frequently uses such a method, inserting some words that may not be relevant to the point he wants to stress, so that they serve to attract the attention of his audience. Furthermore, his statement expresses amazement at a well-known situation, when a man is infatuated by a woman to the extent that his behavior changes in character. He may be wise and intelligent, yet he could easily behave in a way that is inconsistent with his intelligence and wisdom when he is so infatuated. This is a case where a woman who is generally weaker than a man can control him.

The Hadith mentions that the Prophet’s women audience asked him to clarify what he said. His clarification pinpoints certain aspects that suggest no inferiority whatsoever. The mental deficiency is related to the fact that in certain cases, two women witnesses are required in place of one-man witness. This has to do with the role of each of the two sexes in Islamic society. It is no reflection on a woman’s mental ability.

As for religious deficiency, the Prophet, peace be upon him, states the fact that a woman is exempt from prayer and fasting when she is in menstruation. While God gives a woman the reward for prayer and fasting as if she has done them, since she stops only because of her condition and in response to God’s orders, still the fact that she does not fulfill these duties means that her worship is less in terms of what she offers. It does not mean that she is a lesser believer.As for a relevant statement of fact in this regard, the Prophet, peace be upon him, says, “Women are full sisters of men.” In the Arabic text, the Prophet, peace be upon him, uses here a word, which implies total similarity and equivalence. Hence, the Prophet’s statement suggests no inferiority attached to women. The Qur’an and the Sunnah assign the same duties to both men and women, and promise them the same reward. If this does not mean the same status, I would like to know what does.


May I add here that the translation of this Hadith as quoted by you is wrong, because it splits the relevant sentence and gives the Prophet's words in such a way that they appear to make a statement of fact. This is wrong, as I have explained.As for the other part, a full translation of it goes as follows: “‚I have seen hell and I have never seen any thing more horrific than what I saw then. I also saw that the majority of its dwellers are women. ‚ They asked: “On what grounds, Messenger of God? He said: “By their denial.‚ They said: “Their denial of God?‚ He answered: “No. Their denial of their spouses and their denial of kindness. You may be kind to one of them all the time, but when she finds fault with you she says: I have never received any kindness from you. ‚”To start with, the Hadith does not say that most women are in hell. It says that the majority of hell dwellers are women, which simply signifies that more women fail in this worldly test than men. Then the Prophet, peace be upon him, points out their failure, which is not based on denying God. Rather, it is denying kindness, particularly in marital situations. The Prophet, peace be upon him, has pointed this out in more than one Hadith, warning women against grumbling and frequent complaints. He is also warning them here against denying kindness by their husbands, highlighting a failing that is often expressed in denying past kindness.The Hadith shows that women can easily avoid such a destiny by being fair and appreciative of kindness. They should always be grateful to God for what He has given them and also be appreciative of any kindness done to them by others, particularly those with whom they live, be they their husbands, parents or other relatives.

 

 

Source:

 

http://www.ourdialogue.com/Ws1.htm

Hmmm..may Allah reward u 4ds clarification.As muslims,we just av 2be VERY careful of d way som of ds hadiths r interpreted.may Allah strenghten us in faith & mak us firm on ds glorious path,ISLAM cos dts d only way we can talk wit boldness evn wn non muslims wanna use most of ds interpretations 2 paint islam black...