[quote author=frosbel post=29133469][/quote]
OK, you believe in God's great works and wonder but you don't believe in the virgin birth. Wow! who is the confused person?

God loves you but you are being childish.
Here is a principle of God's kingdom:
You need to believe God's word before you understand. "through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Rom 5:2). It is by faith you would receive the grace to understand the mysteries of God. You need to have faith first (believe in His word) before you can receive the grace to understand.

frosbel:


Bible contradictions.

Since you are still studying and have not arrived at rigorous conclusions yet
you would do good to yourself for now not to use the word "contradiction"

Try using "inconsistencies" instead

frosbel:


Kindly describe how a virgin birth ( without sex or IVF ) can occur from a purely biological standpoint.

thanks.

Are you limiting God to human knowledge of biology

Hiswordxray:


Here is a principle of God's kingdom:
You need to believe God's word before you understand.

You can be brutally honest sometimes. Thanks. This is like receiving a lot of change from a stranger and not bothering to count the money. Big money baller!!!!

PastorKun:


Are you limiting God to human knowledge of biology

Is virgin birth biology?

esere826:
Interestingly, one of the popular pastors from Eastern Nigeria.
I can't remember if it is Okonkwo, once said on TV, years ago
that he did not believe in the virgin birth for a long time even as a pastor.

I don't think that a believe or none-believe in many aspects of the Bible are prerequisites to eternal life
What I think is that they can only affects ones faith and direction on this earth either positively or negatively.

The Virgin birth is the heart of Christianity. If Jesus happen to be like you and I in the sense that he is a direct progeny of the fallen Adam, He wouldn't have been fit to die for the sin of mankind.

Paul puts it this way-Rm 8v3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. [size=22pt]By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh[/size],

He was not sent as you and I but like you and I i.e without natural copulation between a man and a woman.

If a pastor does not believe this, he really does not understand what he proclaims.

Weah96:


You can be brutally honest sometimes. Thanks. This is like receiving a lot of change from a stranger and not bothering to count the money. Big money baller!!!!

Are you a Christian?

plaetton:
My guess was right on. On that long break from NL, you were getting in touch with you inner atheist.
Everyone has his or her inner atheist, when reason tries to overpower the primitive parts of the brain.
You have successfully conquered you fears to question your long held beliefs.
Bravo. You are brave.

I must say that I feel privileged to have witnessed the evolution of a former religious nut to a rational , introspective, enquiring human being.
Evolution from homo religilous to homo sapien sapien.

Good luck Frosbel in your search for meaning, understanding and wisdom.

shdemidemi:


The Virgin birth is the heart of Christianity. If Jesus happen to be like you and I in the sense that he is a direct progeny of the fallen Adam, He wouldn't have been fit to die for the sin of mankind.

Paul puts it this way-Rm 8v3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh

He was not sent as you and I but like you and I i.e without natural copulation between a man and a woman.

It is the heart of Christianity alright
but when the gospel was being preached to the gentiles, that was not what was being preached, because, not all gentiles had the narrative of the fall of man in the first place. The 'evidence' of the virgin birth was more useful to the Jewish tradition

What was being preached to the gentiles was that there was one true God who they should look up to.
And that this Yahweh God sent a man -Jesus who if they believed in him, they would have access to this one true God.
And so, instead of beseeching the other gods for favours, they should turn their attention to Yahweh through Jesus who will not only grant them these favours when asked right, but will also take them to a better place in the afterlife

esere826:


It is the heart of Christianity alright
but when the gospel was being preached to the gentiles, that was not what was being preached, because, not all gentiles had the narrative of the fall of man in the first place. The 'evidence' of the virgin birth was more useful to the Jewish tradition

What was being preached to the gentiles was that there was one true God who they should look up to.
And that this Yahweh God sent a man -Jesus who if they believed in him, they would have access to this one true God.
And so, instead of beseeching the other gods for favours, they should turn their attention to Yahweh through Jesus who will not only grant them these favours when asked right, but will also take them to a better place in the afterlife

Stop arguing. I get your point but you don't need to be arguing with your fellow Christian but instead let help our beloved brother who is falling away.

The gospel to the gentiles was not largely centered around the Torah
They were not expected to buy copies of the Torah either
Paul rebuked Peter because he sought to introduce some Torah traditions to the gentile flock

The gospel was simply one of power and miraculous deed. This is the kind of thing that appealed to the gentiles and could pull them from their own beliefs.

PastorKun:


Are you limiting God to human knowledge of biology

No, absolute not.

But, there are inconsistencies and plain fabrications in the virgin birth story which by the way was not mentioned by any of the apostles including Paul in any of their letters/writeups/epistles.

Remember Matthew, Mark , Luke and John were not written by Matthew, Mark , Luke and John. If you doubt me just Google it.

Still, we are left with Matthew referencing a totally unrelated prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 and 2 gospel accounts with heaps of contradictions especially on the two different genealogy accounts in Matthew and Luke.

I asked a few simple questions :

1. Where did Jesus get his Y Chromosome from ( Does God have gender )
2. Who is his father - God the Father or God the Spirit
3. Why did his parents and siblings consider him an ordinary bloke ?

[quote author=esere826 post=29134788]

It is the heart of Christianity alright
but when the gospel was being preached to the gentiles, that was not what was being preached, because, not all gentiles had the narrative of the fall of man in the first place. The 'evidence' of the virgin birth was more useful to the Jewish tradition

wrong.

The Jews reject this as an outright lie, there is nowhere in their scripture that a virgin birth was mentioned, at least they should know, it is their book we borrowed.

Hiswordxray:

Stop arguing. I get your point but you don't need to be arguing with your fellow Christian but instead let help our beloved brother who is falling away.

I don't think he is falling
Jesus says that seeds grow only when they die.

He is shedding skin and dead weight
as long as his inner man is anchored on solid rock
the fire of revelations will only burn off confusion and leave someone that is sounder and more approved

shdemidemi:


My friend, there is nothing wrong with trying to determine truth. The issue here is where you go to find such TRUTH. Whether you like it or not your brain can never comprehend the full manifestation of God's nature and His divinity.

If you have gone to scriptures to find truth you might come across how depraved what you call your brain is... It will only lead you away from submission to God and a lofty evaluation of yourself and your capability to be as god, determining your own right and wrong.

Paul says Romans 12:2

2 Do not be conformed to this present world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve what is the will of God—what is good and well-pleasing and perfect.

Some rendition have it that we should not copy or think as the world think but be transformed in our thinking in conformity with the word of God.

My friend you are not only copying the worldly way of thinking, you are going one step further to discredit the wisdom of God in the circumvention of nature to bring about Christ the Lord of all and Messiah.




Don't be so assuming and belligerent at the same time bro. You are the one who is on a wild goose chase of some form of truth. I know who the truth is and I know where to go if I ever need anything that pertains to the truth.



My friend, it isn't just that. It juxtapose the sort of wisdom you seek by invoking your brain with that which come by God. It describes your sort of discoveries as moronic and outright foolishness. It also describes it as the kind of wisdom that is invariably reserved for those who are heading for the full wrath of God.

What are y'all yapping about. Calling a spade a spade how is it a bad thing. y'all know that they are truly myths and fabrications in the bible but y'all chose to ignore it but frosbel dont..
Y'all believe this cus its wat was indoctrinated to u from.birth by ur parents.
so because the bible said a snake talked we should all believe a snake once talked
doesnt it sound like tue folklore they use to tell us as kids about tortoise and lions and other animals.
guys stop all this....

esere826:


I don't think he is falling
Jesus says that seeds grow only when they die.

He is shedding skin and dead weight
as long as his inner man is anchored on solid rock
the fire of revelations will only burn off confusion and leave someone that is sounder and more approved

Thank You Sir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Uti_r6QCc

frosbel:
wrong.

The Jews reject this as an outright lie, there is nowhere in their scripture that a virgin birth was mentioned, at least they should know, it is their book we borrowed.

read my post again
What I said or implied was that a virgin birth would be more significant to the jews.
I didn't say that they were expecting it.
and the reason it would be significant to them was because of the genesis narrative

Genesis of the Torah says that one man directly from God brought death
it only makes arguable sense to scholars of the Jewish tradition that one man
directly from God will also bring life
this is a point that can be argued to those who believe in the Torah
Just like Paul did

..but wait a minute
the next question becomes, where the Jews even thinking of a Messiah that would reverse the Genesis curse?

the answer is No
The whole concept of Jesus must have hit them with a surprise
the Messiah they were expecting was one in the mould of david, and maybe mini moses
someone that would make them a great earthly kingdom free from colonialists such as the Roman Empire

frosbel:


No, absolute not.

But, there are inconsistencies and plain fabrications in the virgin birth story which by the way was not mentioned by any of the apostles including Paul in any of their letters/writeups/epistles.

Remember Matthew, Mark , Luke and John were not written by Matthew, Mark , Luke and John. If you doubt me just Google it.

Still, we are left with Matthew referencing a totally unrelated prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 and 2 gospel accounts with heaps of contradictions especially on the two different genealogy accounts in Matthew and Luke.

I asked a few simple questions :

1. Where did Jesus get his Y Chromosome from ( Does God have gender )
2. Who is his father - God the Father or God the Spirit
3. Why did his parents and siblings consider him an ordinary bloke ?

Frosbel i have always wanted to talk to you concerning all this.
if you ask this question from now till tomorrow nobody can answer that cus truly none of them knows. they know all this but they have no choice but to believe it with faith.
People know that the canon of the bible was assembled by the catholic church but yet they will still argue over it cus of emotional sentimental attachment.
I do not see a reason why the contradictions in the bible should be ignored and believed as truths.
everybody knows humans wrote the bible tho some like to insist it was vua the inspiration of the holy spirit but that is what you have been told by the same bible. humans are prone to error and contradictions and that can explain the contradictions in the bible but some people will still insist that those contradictions are not truly contradictions. if you say the bible is infallible then arent you saying the people that wrote it are infallible by proxy? why then will you reject it when it is said that the pope is infallible?
Christians tend to ignore this contradictions cus they know that by unravelling these contradictions and mistakes the very foundation of the christian fate will be exposed and none would remain, all will find that many thins u believe all life is just exactly what a set of old men in the council niccea wants you to believe.
i have stopped the habit of arguing because none would ever believe the other is right.
even the strongest Christians find all the stories implausible but they have to believe with faith because the bible said so.
The bible makes mistake and then somewhere it says believe with faith, do you see?
They is nothing u say that will make these Christians agree with u cus this is what they av believed from birth and are no doubt emotionally attached to it. everybody can think and research but they can only do this on their own.

johnydon22:


What are y'all yapping about. Calling a spade a spade how is it a bad thing. y'all know that they are truly myths and fabrications in the bible but y'all chose to ignore it but frosbel dont..
Y'all believe this cus its wat was indoctrinated to u from.birth by ur parents.
so because the bible said a snake talked we should all believe a snake once talked
doesnt it sound like tue folklore they use to tell us as kids about tortoise and lions and other animals.
guys stop all this....

If they had told you the moon, the sun and the stars can all stand independent of any man, I am sure your logical brain will also call that some form of mythology or folklore. But as God will have it you can see it for yourself and you can't explain those things and so many other things that have been divinely put together supernaturally.

I am too sure you like frosbel are only looking for excuses not to believe even when there are countless reasons to believe the bible and God.

shdemidemi:


If they had told you the moon, the sun and the stars can all stand independent of any man, I am sure your logical brain will also call that some form of mythology or folklore. But as God will have it you can see it for yourself and you can't explain those things and so many other things that have been divinely put together supernaturally.

I am too sure you like frosbel are only looking for excuses not to believe even when there are countless reasons to believe the bible and God.

what? the sun and moon what this thing you just typed makes sense to you

shdemidemi:


I am too sure you like frosbel are only looking for excuses not to believe even when there are countless reasons to believe the bible and God.

I believe in God , but not your god who propagates myths and fables as Truth.

esere826:


I don't think he is falling
Jesus says that seeds grow only when they die.

He is shedding skin and dead weight
as long as his inner man is anchored on solid rock
the fire of revelations will only burn off confusion and leave someone that is sounder and more approved

I agree but dying in this case mean coming to realize that you wisdom could not grasp the things of God. This will lead him to trust the wisdom Of God even if he doesn't understand it.

I believe there is hope for him but first he must learn to call his wisdom foolishness and submit to the wisdom of God. He must learn to recognize the truth with his heart even before his head could understand it.
The greatest wisdom is learning to recognize the truth with the heart.

frosbel:


I believe in God , but not your god who propagates myths and fables as Truth.

So which God do you believe in?

Hiswordxray:

So which God do you believe in?

Definitely not the God of Christianity

No man in his right mind will walk into a fire, except a suicidal person. But that's because suicidal people want to DIE, not ROAST forever and ever.
I often hear believers accuse atheists of rejecting God for some reason. This is an extremely silly position because nobody will see an eternal fire and enter it. That kind of behavior is not common to human beings. Its one thing to die and another to roast forever. So stop this nonsense.

95% of the citizens of North Korea hate their president and many wouldn't mind killing him if given the chance. But that doesn't stop them from WORSHIPING him as GOD incarnate. Why should atheists be any different?

esere826:


Since you are still studying and have not arrived at rigorous conclusions yet
you would do good to yourself for now not to use the word "contradiction"

Try using "inconsistencies" instead

Spoken like a politician.
Being a private citizen, why does Frosbel need to be politically correct in his soul searching?

frosbel:


No, absolute not.

But, there are inconsistencies and plain fabrications in the virgin birth story which by the way was not mentioned by any of the apostles including Paul in any of their letters/writeups/epistles.

Remember Matthew, Mark , Luke and John were not written by Matthew, Mark , Luke and John. If you doubt me just Google it.

Still, we are left with Matthew referencing a totally unrelated prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 and 2 gospel accounts with heaps of contradictions especially on the two different genealogy accounts in Matthew and Luke.

I asked a few simple questions :

1. Where did Jesus get his Y Chromosome from ( Does God have gender )
2. Who is his father - God the Father or God the Spirit
3. Why did his parents and siblings consider him an ordinary bloke ?

1. How did God create chicken, is God a chicken?
2. Who is your parents - your mother or your father?
3. Why did Marry asked Jesus to turn water to wine when she haven't seen him perform any miracle before?

frosbel:


Definitely not the God of Christianity

And you don't believe in Jesus too?

frosbel:


I believe in God , but not your god who propagates myths and fables as Truth.

And the supernatural account of Jesus is the supposed myth and fables abi?

shdemidemi:


The Virgin birth is the heart of Christianity. If Jesus happen to be like you and I in the sense that he is a direct progeny of the fallen Adam, He wouldn't have been fit to die for the sin of mankind.

Paul puts it this way-Rm 8v3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. [size=22pt]By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh[/size],

He was not sent as you and I but like you and I i.e without natural copulation between a man and a woman.

If a pastor does not believe this, he really does not understand what he proclaims.

The bolded is one of the doctrines of christianity i cannot wrap my head around. They say he is free from orignial sin because a man was not involved in his conception. But how does that exonorate him from Eveic sin? Since eve was the first that ate the apple and thus was the first to sin, it means she was as culpable as Adam. Jesus at least have the genes of Eve (even if we assume the other half was absent), so it means Jesus has half the original sin in his genes. Jesus was a direct progeny of the fallen Eve.

The doctrine went further to suggest that children born as a result of copulation is sinful. I honestly do not know where they get this. Sex within marriage is said to be unsinful or holy. So how come they are now implying that a child born under wedlock is sinful and confers sin on the innocent baby?

You need to be Christ Conscious dump everything else