Papist:

Historical revisionism? Why am I not surprised when this is coming from a Protestant? Here is more to shock you from Luther your hero:
.

Alright then, give us your correct version of history!

Scholar8200:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God. There's no quote from the Apocrypha. The real custodians of the covenants and the OT (Jews) recognised these inter-testament period books as just literary works.

Perfect!

You still haven't shown where the Bible says those books were not inspired, but mere literary works. Or are you following Martin Luther's personal tradition?

Scholar8200:

Why quote Luther here? You just called him a heretic! Any way refer to my reply to a post related to your question.

You're just dodging. When Luther does what suits you he's a hero; the moment you're shown what doesn't suit you, he becomes a villain.

Are you aware that the same Luther that removed the deuterocanonical books from his Bible which you use...also called the book of James "Epistle of straw?"

Does that also mean "James" is a mere literary work?

Does it bother you that your whole house of faith is built on a man whose doctrines are unsteady and dubious?

Scholar8200:


Let me ask, is Joseph the father of God?

No. Now can you answer the question you have been dodging?


From the above epistle, are you saying that the Jesus who lived in the womb of Mary, who walked the streets of Israel, who was crucified at Calvary, was a mere man, not God?

italo:


No. Now can you answer the question you have been dodging?


From the above epistle, are you saying that the Jesus who lived in the womb of Mary, who walked the streets of Israel, who was crucified at Calvary, was a mere man, not God?

Jesus Christ is the Son of God;He is The Word Who is God. But Mary is not His mother (His divinity has nothing to do with her)! If you say Mary is His mother then, by the same token, Joseph is His father! That which was formed in her was by the power of the Holy Spirit. The betrothed couple (marriage makes two one) were only used as a means of bringing in the Son according to God's purpose. Yes the angel called her 'mother of the child' and she (Mary) called Joseph, 'thy father' Luke 2:48 but both knew they were just used of God to bring in He Who the angel said will be called "The Son of The Highest"

I am sure if you would ask Jesus this question, His answer will be along these lines

Matthew 22:42-45

42 Saying, What do you think of the Christ? Whose Son is He? They said to Him, The Son of David.
43 He said to them, How is it then that David, under the influence of the [Holy] Spirit, calls Him Lord, saying,
44 The Lord said to My Lord, Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies under Your feet?
45 If then David thus calls Him Lord, how is He his Son?

Bear in mind that this applies to Joseph and Mary too, the descendants of David!

Besides, my post concerning Luther did not exalt him as a hero; just mentioned him as one (out of others) who risked their lives to bring to the open and make public that which the Roman Catholic Church wanted to have monopoly over! It does not therefore mean that everything he says will/should be accepted lock,stock and barrel! Like the Bereans, we cross-check his teachings with the Word and if there is any contradiction, the Word supersedes Luther's or any other person's teaching!

fr3do:


it could be said that the Holy Spirit artificially inserminated her, I hope your question is not rhetorical.

Actually, it is.

Can you explain the procedure the holy spirit used in artificially inseminating her?

hahn:


Actually, it is.

Can you explain the procedure the holy spirit used in artificially inseminating her?

hian
He probably implanted the heavenly Foetus into her.

italo:


So "dead" Moses spoke to Jesus?

If this can happen, then even if Mary died, she can speak to Jesus.

Also, please show us where the Bible said Mary is "dead and buried," as you claimed. Or is that too just one of your personal traditions?

Have you considered why God made them appear to Jesus? God used the transfiguration to show that we ought to listen only to Jesus
Mt.17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, Hear Him.
8. When they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.
Did Moses and Elijah ever spoke to Jesus again? God used such scenario to pass a message to us. See also the case of 'dead' Samuel and Saul.

If dead people still speak today, God would have supported his people in consulting the spirits of the dead. Instead, He warned his people not to try such.
Deut.18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interpretes omens, or a sorcerer.
11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
12. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord...'

Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the DEAD know NOTHING.
10. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going (KJV)
10. Work hard at whatever you do, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead- and that is where you are going (GB)
Before you lay a claim from a passage, understand it first and make sure it does not contradict what is written in other passages.

Quote the bible passages that that showed that Paul, Peter, Jude, John, Thomas, Andrew, Barnabas and other believers died. You have nothing to argue about. The two men that God took away that did not die, apart from Jesus, were Enoch and Elijah. So long as the trumpet has not sounded and the judgement day has not come, humans will continue to die and return to the dust.

Scholar8200:
Jesus Christ is the Son of God;He is The Word Who is God. But Mary is not His mother

Matt 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt.

Who is a shameless liar between you and the Angel of the Lord?

Scholar8200:

Besides, my post concerning Luther did not exalt him as a hero; just mentioned him as one (out of others) who risked their lives to bring to the open and make public that which the Roman Catholic Church wanted to have monopoly over! It does not therefore mean that everything he says will/should be accepted lock,stock and barrel! Like the Bereans, we cross-check his teachings with the Word and if there is any contradiction, the Word supersedes Luther's or any other person's teaching!

What do you mean by "The Word" now. The Catholic 73 books or Luther's 65 books without the deuterocanonicals and James which he castigated?

Who decided the books in your "The Word?"

Also, you haven't shown us where "The Word" said that Mac cables, Tobit, Sirach are not inspired...and that Mark, Luke are inspired.

What about Gospel of Barnabas, Epistle to the Laodiceans, the book of Enoch, Acts of Peter? Are they inspired? If not, where does the Bible say they aren't? Remember Laodiceans was mention in the Bible and some of the deuterocanonicals were quoted in other books of the Bible or made reference to.

Also, tell us if the Holy Spirit is still inspiring men to write scriptures. If yes, give us an example. If no, tell us where the Bible tells you that the Holy Spirit would stop inspiring men to write scripture. Or are you following the Catholic tradition that closed the Canon of Scripture?

fr3do:


hian
He probably implanted the heavenly Foetus into her with his heavenly dick.

I think I agree with you on that

italo:

Matt 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt.

Who is a shameless liar between you and the Angel of the Lord?


What do you mean by "The Word" now. The Catholic 73 books or Luther's 65 books without the deuterocanonicals and James which he castigated?

Who decided the books in your "The Word?"

Also, you haven't shown us where "The Word" said that Mac cables, Tobit, Sirach are not inspired...and that Mark, Luke are inspired.

What about Gospel of Barnabas, Epistle to the Laodiceans, the book of Enoch, Acts of Peter? Are they inspired? If not, where does the Bible say they aren't? Remember Laodiceans was mention in the Bible and some of the deuterocanonicals were quoted in other books of the Bible or made reference to.

Also, tell us if the Holy Spirit is still inspiring men to write scriptures. If yes, give us an example. If no, tell us where the Bible tells you that the Holy Spirit would stop inspiring men to write scripture. Or are you following the Catholic tradition that closed the Canon of Scripture?

Kai!

We need people like you in our education system

italo:

Matt 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt.

Who is a shameless liar between you and the Angel of the Lord?

To clarify, see Luke 2:48
48 And when they [Joseph and Mary] saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, Child, why have You treated us like this? Here Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You [distressed and tormented]. The extent of Joseph's fatherhood is also the extent of Mary's motherhood! No more, no less.

I simply answered the intent of your question. (the motherhood you have in mind is the extrapolated one and I'm not going along those lines) Quite similar to the pharisees asking Jesus should we pay tributes, yes or no? or should we stone the adulteress,yes or no?

Barnabaseloka:

Have you considered why God made them appear to Jesus? God used the transfiguration to show that we ought to listen only to Jesus
Mt.17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, Hear Him.
8. When they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.
Did Moses and Elijah ever spoke to Jesus again? God used such scenario to pass a message to us. See also the case of 'dead' Samuel and Saul.

If dead people still speak today, God would have supported his people in consulting the spirits of the dead. Instead, He warned his people not to try such.
Deut.18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interpretes omens, or a sorcerer.
11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
12. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord...'

Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the DEAD know NOTHING.
10. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going (KJV)
10. Work hard at whatever you do, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead- and that is where you are going (GB)
Before you lay a claim from a passage, understand it first and make sure it does not contradict what is written in other passages.

So you are saying Moses was dead, yet he spoke once.

You have no proof that Moses didn't speak again, except you can show me where the Bible said so.

What about the people that spoke in Rev 6:10, were they alive? Still dodging that question?

Barnabaseloka:


Quote the bible passages that that showed that Paul, Peter, Jude, John, Thomas, Andrew, Barnabas and other believers died. You have nothing to argue about. The two men that God took away that did not die, apart from Jesus, were Enoch and Elijah. So long as the trumpet has not sounded and the judgement day has not come, humans will continue to die and return to the dust.

1. I can't find it in my Bible but Catholic oral tradition (which is the word of God just like Scipture (2Thess2:15)) tells me that those apostles died.

You are the one who claims to believe in Bible alone, so tell me where the Bible says that Mary died...or that only Elijah and Enoch will never die in the history of the world.

Please show me!

Also are you saying that Jesus did not die?

Scholar8200:
To clarify, see Luke 2:48
48 And when they [Joseph and Mary] saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, Child, why have You treated us like this? Here Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You [distressed and tormented]. The extent of Joseph's fatherhood is also the extent of Mary's motherhood! No more, no less.

I simply answered the intent of your question. (the motherhood you have in mind is the extrapolated one and I'm not going along those lines) Quite similar to the pharisees asking Jesus should we pay tributes, yes or no? or should we stone the adulteress,yes or no?

Stop lying against me. Don't you get tired of toeing Satan's line of telling lies? I never told you I have any extrapolated intent. I only have the intent of The Angel of the Lord which is the intent of God which simply said: Matt 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “[b]take the child and his mother [/b]and escape to Egypt.

You said Mary is not the child's mother.

Who should I believe between you and God?

hahn:


Kai!

We need people like you in our education system

Thank you.

italo:


Also, tell us if the Holy Spirit is still inspiring men to write scriptures. If yes, give us an example. If no, tell us where the Bible tells you that the Holy Spirit would stop inspiring men to write scripture. Or are you following the Catholic tradition that closed the Canon of Scripture?

John16:12
12 I have still many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them or to take them upon you or to grasp them now.

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will cause you to recall (will remind you of, bring to your remembrance) everything I have told you.

John 15:27 shows that the NT books (most of which recorded the words of the apostles on the faith and the life of Christ) was all that the Lord had in mind. No one after the early church can lay claim to the qualification as laid down by Christ.

John 15:27

27 But you also will testify and be My witnesses, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Does it mean believers today have no part in the baptism with the Spirit? No! Peter said, on the day of pentecost
Acts 2:39
39 For the promise [of the Holy Spirit] is to and for you and your children, and to and for all that are far away, [even] to and for as many as the Lord our God invites and bids to come to Himself.



Ephesians 2:20

You are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus Himself the chief Cornerstone.

The Holy Spirit still inspires men today not to write new scriptures that contradict the words and teaching of Christ and His first set of apostles, but (as the Epistles reveal).

It is no coincidence that Jude and Revelations the last books in the Bible states

Jude 3
3 Beloved, my whole concern was to write to you in regard to our common salvation. [But] I found it necessary and was impelled to write you and urgently appeal to and exhort [you] to contend for the faith which was once for all [a]handed down to the saints [the faith which is that sum of Christian belief which was delivered [b]verbally to the holy people of God]

Revelations 22:18,19

18 I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the [e]predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book.
19 And if anyone cancels or takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these [f]predictions relating to Christ’s kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel and take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described and promised in this book.

The council at Jerusalem could not take a decision sans the approval of the same Inspirer - the Holy Spirit
Acts 15:28
28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to lay upon you any greater burden than these indispensable requirements

Notice the order, the Holy Spirit and us (the apostles with no particular one being exalted as the singular representative of Christ). And the decision taken was in accordance with that which was revealed in the OT and in the time of Christ!

Summarily, a lot of books can be written under the Spirit's inspiration about the contents of the Bible but that does not qualify them as part of scripture. Why? Because God is not the author of confusion.

italo:


Stop lying against me. Don't you get tired of toeing Satan's line of telling lies? I never told you I have any extrapolated intent. I only have the intent of The Angel of the Lord which is the intent of God which simply said: Matt 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “[b]take the child and his mother [/b]and escape to Egypt.

You said Mary is not the child's mother.

Who should I believe between you and God?

Lying? Is it not your intent to infer a yes to mean - then He is the mother of God?

To clarify, see Luke 2:48
48 And when they [Joseph and Mary] saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, Child, why have You treated us like this? Here Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You [distressed and tormented].

The extent of Joseph's fatherhood is also the extent of Mary's motherhood! No more, no less.

italo:


Abel was alive, not dead.

Now answer my question: the people who talked to God in Rev 6:10, were they alive then?

They were believers who were killed for their faith in Christ. They were dead (resting) but when the fifth seal was opened, they cried for VENGENCE and went back to their state of rest. It was only those that were martyred that did that once and never again. No other dead believer spoke or cried out.
Abel's blood cried for VENGENCE, though Abel was dead.

know that what John saw was a vision, not yet reality, but a preview of an event that would happen in the future.

One cannot see a person's axtual soul (one's life or one's being) in reality. So what John saw was a representation of those who have been martyred for Christ's sake.

Rev.5:5 But one of the elders said to me; Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David has preveiled to open the scroll and to loose its seals.
As Christ opened any of the seven seals, john, who was 'in the spirit', witnessed events that were not actually happening in reality at that time. They were heavnly previews of events that would later happen on earth.

Note that the event in the fifth seal talked about martyrdom, which will take place during the great tribulation, after Jesus must have taken His people away. Here, people who will still believe in Jesus will be killed. Check out the sixth seal and the seventh seal and you will see that they are yet to happen.

Note that these souls (dead believers) were told to rest (remain in their state of sleep) a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who would be killed as the were, was completed.
Apart from opening of the fifth seal, these souls remained in their resting state and never talked.

In the land of the dead, there is no life. That is why the dead need to be raised, some to everlasting life and others to everlasting punishment.
If dead believers are alive, why should there be resurrection? If believers die and yet are alive, it means they have taken up immortality and there is no need for resurrection. Also, are dead unbelievers alive or dead as well?

1 Corinth. 15:
42. This is how it will be when the dead are raised to life. When the body is buried, it is mortal, when raised, it will be immortal.
43. When buried, it is ugly and weak, when raised, it will be beautiful and strong.
44. When buried, it is a physical body, when raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is of course a physical body, so there has to be a spiritual body
51. Listen to the secret truth: we shall not all die, but when the last trumpet sounds, we shall all be changed
52. In an instant, as quickly as the blinking of an eye. For when the trumpet sounds, the dead will be raised, never to die again, and we shall all be changed.
52. For what is mortal must be changed into what is immortal; what will die must be changed into what cannot die.
53. So when this takes place, and the mortal has been changed into the immortal, then the scripture will come true: Death is destroyed, victory is completed.

italo:


Just dodging my questions. I never questioned the Bible's authenticity. I know that it is authentic because God's authentic Catholic Church compiled, Canonized it.

My question is to you, Mr Bible alone protestant:


Why should anyone quote from the Bible when you don't know how the bible came about?

Show me where Jesus or the Bible told anyone to write, read or quote the bible?

Or are you also following Catholic tradition which canonized the Bible?

it is of no need for you to be insultive or in agitation.
The bible is a book that contains the scriptures. Though people refer to it with differnt names such as God's word and the scriptures. Yet, everyone knows what is being talked about. So your argument is not worth it. The important things are the words written in it and not just the 'container' itself.

Tell me how you believed in Jesus. If you have believed in Jesus, how do you determine the will of God for your life? Was it that sb came to you and started talking endlessly? Or was it that the person convinced you by quoting some passages in the scriptures to base his points?
Acts 17:11 Those were more fair-minded than those in Thessolonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

I know that the truth stares you in the face but you refuse to accept it. Have I not said that anyone should refernce passages from his/her bible while others check up those passages in their own bibles for correct interpretation? If you feel that the bible you have is the most accurate of the others, quote from it! What matters is giving the right interpretation to the words written in it.

italo:


Below is what you said earlier

Nowhere does Luke 1:1-3 mention "Luke" or Holy Spirit. Stop trying to squeeze those words into the passage.

At the time Paul said "All scripture is given...," he meant Old Testament. Revelations, for example had not even been written.

If you cannot show me where the the bible said Luke wrote Luke under the influence of the Holy Spirit, then you are either following Catholic tradition or your personal tradition.

You also refused to say if the Church was error prone in compiling the Bible or if they were above error.

Also please tell us: is the Holy Spirit still inspiring men to write scriptures?

You can see my handle and know what I said and what I did not say.
I did not talk about church compiling bible. I talked about men doing it.
Tell me what makes that which was compiled error-prone- is it the words written in the bible or the bible itself? Today, any christian write-up under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit has its base in the things which have been written. There is nothing new to add to it.

italo:

Meaning Mary gave birth to God?

Yes, Mary gave birth to the Son (Jesus) who is also God.

Papist:

Historical revisionism? Why am I not surprised when this is coming from a Protestant? Here is more to shock you from Luther your hero:

Christ, ..was the only Son of
Mary, and the Virgin Mary
bore no children besides
Him... "brothers" really
means "cousins" here, for
Holy Writ and the Jews
always call cousins brothers.
(Sermons on John, chapters
1-4.1537-39).

He, Christ, our Savior, was
the real and natural fruit of
Mary's virginal womb.. .This
was without the cooperation
of a man, and she remained
a virgin after that. (Ibid.)
God says... "Mary's Son is My
only Son." Thus Mary is the
Mother of God. (Ibid.).
God did not derive his
divinity from Mary; but it
does not follow that it is
therefore wrong to say that
God was born of Mary, that
God is Mary's Son, and that
Mary is God's mother...She
is the true mother of God
and bearer of God...Mary
suckled God, rocked God to
sleep, prepared broth and
soup for God, etc. For God
and man are one person,
one Christ, one Son, one
Jesus. not two Christs. . .just
as your son is not two
sons...even though he has
two natures, body and soul,
the body from you, the soul
from God alone. (On the
Councils and the Church,
1539).

It is a sweet and pious belief
that the infusion of Mary's
soul was effected without
original sin; so that in the
very infusion of her soul she
was also purified from
original sin and adorned with
God's gifts, receiving a pure
soul infused by God; thus
from the first moment she
began to live she was free
from all sin" (Sermon: "On
the Day of the Conception of
the Mother of God," 1527).

She (Mary) is full of grace,
proclaimed to be entirely
without sin—something
exceedingly great. For God's
grace fills her with
everything good and makes
her devoid of all evil.
(Personal {"Little"} Prayer
Book, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman
and the noblest gem in
Christianity after Christ.
..She is nobility, wisdom, and
holiness personified. We can
never honor her enough. Still
honor and praise must be
given to her in such a way as
to injure neither Christ nor
the Scriptures. (Sermon,
Christmas, 1531).
No woman is like you. You
are more than Eve or Sarah,
blessed above all nobility,
wisdom, and sanctity.
(Sermon, Feast of the
Visitation. 1537).
One should honor Mary as
she herself wished and as
she expressed it in the
Magnificat. She praised God
for his deeds. How then can
we praise her? The true
honor of Mary is the honor
of God, the praise of God's
grace.. .Mary is nothing for
the sake of herself, but for
the sake of Christ...Mary
does not wish that we come
to her, but through her to
God. (Explanation of the
Magnificat, 1521).

You can know all of history. But when someone says a thing, use your bible to validate its truthfulness.

[quote author=italo post=34650137]
You still haven't shown where the Bible says those books were not inspired, but mere literary works. Or are you following Martin Luther's personal tradition?



You're just dodging. When Luther does what suits you he's a hero; the moment you're shown what doesn't suit you, he becomes a villain.

Are you aware that the same Luther that removed the deuterocanonical books from his Bible which you use...also called the book of James "Epistle of straw?"

Does that also mean "James" is a mere literary work?

Does it bother you that your whole house of faith is built on a man whose doctrines are unsteady and dubious?

No. /quote]
Did you just write that Joseph was not the father of Jesus (God)?

italo:

Matt 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt.

Who is a shameless liar between you and the Angel of the Lord?


What do you mean by "The Word" now. The Catholic 73 books or Luther's 65 books without the deuterocanonicals and James which he castigated?

Who decided the books in your "The Word?"

Also, you haven't shown us where "The Word" said that Mac cables, Tobit, Sirach are not inspired...and that Mark, Luke are inspired.

What about Gospel of Barnabas, Epistle to the Laodiceans, the book of Enoch, Acts of Peter? Are they inspired? If not, where does the Bible say they aren't? Remember Laodiceans was mention in the Bible and some of the deuterocanonicals were quoted in other books of the Bible or made reference to.

Also, tell us if the Holy Spirit is still inspiring men to write scriptures. If yes, give us an example. If no, tell us where the Bible tells you that the Holy Spirit would stop inspiring men to write scripture. Or are you following the Catholic tradition that closed the Canon of Scripture?

Now I see that the problem is in catholics having 73 books in the bible while Luther has 65 books in the bible. But why is it that people rarely quote from the books that Luther removed? So long as the words written in the catholic bible have the same interpretation with the ones in non-catholics bibles, the truth still stands. This also mean that everyone (both catholics and non-catholics) have bibles to make eference to while speaking. Why is it that after the compilation of the catholics 73 books and the non-catholics 65 books, no other write-up has been added? If you feel that what you have in your bible is not enough, you are free to add more to it!
Thanks be to God for the Holy Spirit who will always lead us into all the truth we ought to know in that we will not be confused by what men teach or say.

italo:



So you are saying Moses was dead, yet he spoke once.

You have no proof that Moses didn't speak again, except you can show me where the Bible said so.

What about the people that spoke in Rev 6:10, were they alive? Still dodging that question?

1. I can't find it in my Bible but Catholic oral tradition (which is the word of God just like Scipture (2Thess2:15)) tells me that those apostles died.

You are the one who claims to believe in Bible alone, so tell me where the Bible says that Mary died...or that only Elijah and Enoch will never die in the history of the world.

Please show me!

Also are you saying that Jesus did not die?

if Moses after he died had spoken to anyone except Jesus, then who?
I have answered you on Rev.6:10

Your catholic oral tradition recorded that those men died without recording whether Mary died or not. This is ridiculous.

The bible did not record the death of Mary as it did not record the death of many other believers. Now tell me: Did Mary die?
Jesus died, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

How am I supposed to answer you the question on whether all the believers died? If you have read that anyone of them did not die, so be it! I am not complaining. I quoted the two men in the scriptures that did not die and told you that humans would continue to die b/c Jesus has not yet come back and the judgement day has not come. What is my concern with God deciding to take anyone away without such dying?

Know it now that I am not against people going into history. I also read history. So, do not think I only talk everything from the scriptures. But any thing that relates to the christian faith that is not based, whether directly or indirectly in the scriptures, or contradicts it is thrown away.

hahn:


I think I agree with you on that

I do not take part in this blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

The bible says: "by their works you shall know them".

You'll know a church is not from God if it
1. Kills, discredit, attack source of livelihood, expels people who try to spread thAwee word of God to commoners by burning them, maiming them, telling lies about them.

2. Try to hide the bible from people.

3 associate with leaders of these world

4 support wars , crusades and even partakes in local wahala so as to have political power,grab lands and increase their earthly wealth.

5. Force entire tribes with the threat of death if they dnt accept their religion .

6. Hide phydophiles, child Molestors and rapists among its clergies for years just because they feel it might shame them.

7. Try desperately to cover up this atrocities by bribing , using political power and the respect people had for their body.

8. Claim self created titles that they hope will make people respect them.

9. Give false doctrines under the heading : tradition and fail to show proof.

The bible say : from these people fleeeeee!!!

MizJanet:
Catholics are clueless , but the most silly are the protestants who say their Jesus is God but fail to realize that they have automatically make his mother the one who gave birth to God .


Even protestants belive Mary gave birth to God


Y'all are confuse .

If everyone has not got it rightly and is confused, then, who is Jesus?

Scholar8200:


No denomination is prominent in heaven. The church is not a denomination and its members; rather it is the total of all those who are joined to Jesus Christ by repentance and faith through the power of the Spirit. Each denomination is a mixed multitude of the true Church (believers), hypocrites, and sinners in different mix. (some have more of one than the other, others have almost none)eg the church in jersusalem (before they were dispersed) had Ananias and Sapphira etc

1 Corinthians 12:13

13 For by [[d]means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and [e]by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.

That's why Paul spoke of Aquila and the church (gathering of believers) in his house Romans 16:4,5 etc

Besides, Jesus Christ in the book of Revelations 2&3 sent messages to 7 different churches and their leaders( assemblies of believers) scattered through out Asia minor! there was no mention or a likeness of the Catholic church and a singular ruler (eg successor of Peter etc.)

If, like you claim, the Catholic church is the Church(denomination) Jesus established, I wonder why His message to the Churches in Revelations made no mention of that throughout!

Ignorance again? The Church was called Catholic in Asia Minor by St Ignatus of Antioch and these Catholic Churches included Rome, Antioch, Smyrna, Jerusalem, Alexandria etc. These Churches taught the same faith and the Pope of Rome was called the coryphaeus. Here is what Ignatius of Antioch says before 107AD:

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8

Here is St Ignatius of Antioch praising the Church of Rome:

Ignorance You have envied no one; but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instruction may remain in force. —Letter to the Romans, Ch 3

In conclusion:
Note: Jesus is the greatest of ALL THINGS, except God, and existed before ANYTHING was created.
1. If Mary is presently the mother of Jesus, then, joseph is still the father today. (Mt.2:13, Luke 2:49).
2. If Joseph is still the father today, then who is God to Jesus? (John 8:30, Col.1:3, 2 Corinth.1:3, 1 Pet.1:3).
3. If Joseph is not the father today, then, Mary is not the mother today.
4. If Joseph is at present not the father, then God might have replaced Joseph when Jesus ascended into heaven. Or God might have married Mary in the spiritual realm to give birth to Jesus, the Son.
5. This indirectly means that Jesus has two fathers- God and Joseph but only one mother- Mary presently.
6. If Mary is the queen of heaven, definitely, Joseph is the king of heaven, and Jesus is the prince of heaven. So what is the position of God in heaven?
But thanks be to God for the Scriptures are not contradictory or confusing. Jesus has ONLY one Father-God. Mary and Joseph WERE (but not presently) His parents on earth, before He began His ministry.

Papist:

Ignorance again? The Church was called Catholic in Asia Minor by St Ignatus of Antioch and these Catholic Churches included Rome, Antioch, Smyrna, Jerusalem, Alexandria etc. These Churches taught the same faith and the Pope of Rome was called the coryphaeus. Here is what Ignatius of Antioch says before 107AD:

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. —Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8

Here is St Ignatius of Antioch praising the Church of Rome:

Ignorance You have envied no one; but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instruction may remain in force. —Letter to the Romans, Ch 3

The Author and Finisher of our faith, the Lord Jesus Christ, did not in anyway allude to this! That is what matters.
Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church (not Ignatius or Coryphaeus or Luther). Besides, the distinct message was to the leaders of each church( catholic hierarchy suggests that Jesus should've given these messages to whoever the pope was, but no), the only Recurring Name that ran through all the messages is the Spirit (the One Sent in Christ's Name!)
Revelation 2:7,11,17 etc
He that has an ear, let Him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches

Barnabaseloka:

Noted. What you need to do is to quote from your bible, while others compare it from their own bibles, alongside other passages to get balanced understanding of a matter.

Actually, you'll find that sola scriptura which you're alluding to here is what has led to countless denominations with different interpretations/teachings. This is why sola scriptura can never work - you need a guiding church. The issue at hand is what is the correct teaching. I bet you and your fellow protestants have differing on big issues such as trinity,baptism etc.

I'll ask you a simple question on a different note - what is the correct teaching on the bread Jesus talked about in John 6 and the last supper? And let us know when this teaching was accepted in the church.

Barnabaseloka:

Why do you quote from the same scriptures that is said to be error-prone? How do I know that what you have quoted is right?

I never said it was error prone. The only way we know the scriptures are error free is because the church told us so. St Augustine 4th Cent. even attests to this in his writings (For my part, I should not believe the gospel except moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. (Against the Epistle of Manichaeus 5, 6; NPNF 1, Vol. IV, 131)

And the church got its authority directly from Jesus according to Tradition and as recorded in the scriptures.

Do remember that the church already existed while the NT scriptures where being written. In fact, Paul wrote to a number of them. The only way to understand the scriptures correctly is to see it within the tradition of the church that already existed.