₦airaland Forum

Welcome, Guest: Join Nairaland / LOGIN! / Trending / Recent / New
Stats: 2,212,145 members, 4,829,594 topics. Date: Saturday, 23 March 2019 at 06:09 AM

Is Jesus God? - Religion (8) - Nairaland

Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Is Jesus God? (15324 Views)

Archangel Michael Is Jesus Christ / Is Jesus God? – Logical Questions That Need Answers / Is Jesus God? (2) (3) (4)

(1) (2) (3) ... (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) ... (16) (Reply) (Go Down)

Re: Is Jesus God? by Backslider(m): 1:35am On Dec 30, 2006
@Omot28

I am sorry I labelled you wrongly I know the doctrines of Jw and That of The Church of Christ. I have debated this people also.

My understanding of God and The bible is by him and only God. I have quoted the different parts of the bible. The apostles have been quoted by TayoD and you have Never disputed the Apostles.

I am not however suprised that you don't want to sincerely read the bible in context.  The HEBREW WORD FOR GOD IS IN THE PLURAL, Some Say it is Used STRONGLY to conote his Deity,   THE QUESTION NOW IS DID THE SINGULAR WORD ELOAH EXIST BEFORE ELOHIM?

I have the Audio of The Hebrew bible.

Now To point you said Jesus was Created. If he were Created then we are doomed as Believers of Christ. But Thank God The Father he was Not Created.

John 1:1,14  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, "

This shows that Jesus is God in flesh he was never CREATED just as you don't create ICE BLOCK You transform it from Water to Ice

Steam Water and Ice have the same major components Hydrogen and Oxygen but they are very different in Character. this is the Similarity.
John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.”
With Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

You see my brother Jesus uses the same title for Himself that God uses of Himself.

If you say that the verse is really, "I have been", then why did the Jews want to kill him -- especially when in John 10:30-33[b] they say they want to kill Him because He claimed to be God?[/b]  Where and what did Jesus say to cause them to think that?


John 10:30-33, “I and the Father are one. 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”

33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

I could Imagine how tough it was for Jesus to Explain to man. He The Most High Himself explaining to Mortal insignificant man.


You also claim that because Jesus was sent and he was praying to the father he was Created or a mere man. I really don't want to quote the book revelation but I may do so, So look now When Jesus asked he is THE GREATEST IN HEAVEN. THE SUBMISSIVE BE THE GREATEST. He even went on to say like little babes.

That is why Jesus Name is Exalted above every other name and at the Mention every nee shall bow,   

I rest my Case for now. if you want us to go into the very Aspect of the bible where Jesus is Clearly God be ready to read your Bible and I will you by his Help.
Re: Is Jesus God? by omot208(f): 11:50am On Dec 30, 2006
TayoD,
I'm glad u are taking out the time to explain ur view and how u think i should understand it. the thing is the more u bring up points, the more errors i see.

what does that verse tell u, the one in John 3: 13? if u choose to explain it to mean Jesus was in Heaven and on earth at the same time, does it not also mean there was no man in heaven? does it not also mean all those that have died and supposedly gone to heaven to be with God are not in fact there? think brother, think. if the only person that has ascended into heaven is the only one that came from it, which is Jesus as that verse is saying, then where are all the rest? anyway that's another topic for another day. besides if u read the verse that comes immediately before that, Jesus says he is not talking of earthly things but heavenly things. He meant that his rightful place is in heaven and he was talking in a different sense from the ordinary.

u quoted Micah 5:2. this is only reinforcing the fact that Jesus Christ existed in his prehuman days. it says his "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting". it shows that Jesus has been doing the will of his Father from time past, like when he was sent to collect tithes from Abraham. it does not mean that he was there at the beginning of his Father. he existed with the Father long before our creation. also, John1:1 says nothing about Jesus being before the beginning. It says "IN the beginning was the word", referring to the beginning of God's creation. Jesus was there and God spoke to him when He said "Let US make man in our own image". that is not a point of argument as we seem to agree that Jesus did exist at that time.

i now understand what u meant about the marriage, although u rephrased ur term from body to spirit, so it is no more applicable.

Seeing his "day" does not make any difference. when u say 'in my day', u mean in ur lifetime. it does not say anything about the Day of the Lord which is the day of God's judgement, which Abraham could not have seen because it has not taken place. The two terms are very different. Jesus is referring to his own days, his early days when he lived with his Father before the creation of the living, and not about the Day of the Lord.

and how does ur quotation of 'mystery' help me? from your quotation, Godliness does not mean being God, but being LIKE God. Jesus is indeed like God and second only to Him.So this does not support ur idea of trinity. i only have a problem with people trying to say something is mysterious and cannot be understood when they are trying to avoid pointers to the truh. the word itself holds no problem for me.

from all indications, we should agree to disagree. the main requirement for salvation is to believe that Jesus is the Son of Gd who died to redeem us from sin, and to serve God faithfully till the end.
Re: Is Jesus God? by Ndipe(m): 11:58am On Dec 30, 2006
, "from all indications, we should agree to disagree. the main requirement for salvation is to believe that Jesus is the Son of Gd who died to redeem us from sin, and to serve God faithfully till the end."



AMEN!!! That is the most important duty for all of us, fortunate to be alive. For God Almighty is patient and slow to anger and is not willing for us to perish eternally.
Re: Is Jesus God? by omot208(f): 12:14pm On Dec 30, 2006
backslider,
i do read the Bible in context, just not in yours.

the Hebrew thought God had a female side that's why their word for Him is plural. for them to accpet Jesus as His son, they needed a female side. both sides were thought to connect to brign forth offspring! They even had a name for 'her'. they held God in so much awe that they never pronounced His name YHWH out loud, they only wrote it out. so if u go by old hebrew customs u are bound to make mistakes. the Yoruba and the French use plural address forms for strangers and elders, does this make them plural? it certainly doesn't. it only indicates respect.

why are you doomed if Jesus was created? does it make any great difference? he still died for u so u are saved, not doomed.

the Word is Jesus Christ, not God. he existed in spirit form before he was made flesh and sent to the earth to dwell among us. his 'oneness' with God is only symbolic, not physical. that is the way the verse is meant to be understood.

Jesus was rewarded for his mission, that was when he said"all power is given unto me". he did not have this power before. he was given command of the earth, and all creatures are instructed to bow to him in Phillipians 2.

i would like it if u just made ur case rather than rest it. i desire to be enlightened, so maybe u can help me b showing me, thank u.
Re: Is Jesus God? by Backslider(m): 1:47pm On Dec 30, 2006
@omoto208

You have a made another mistake. I am A yoruba man myself there is a very big difference when using "E" and ''Won'' This is like using pronoun "He" and "Them" There no way you can Transliterate. It is Expressional Respect so don't go like that. There so many words in Yoruba that have no translation. THE YORUBA LANGUAGE HAVE VERY GREAT EXPRESSIONAL SAYING. If I say In yoruba " Woni kpe" and "O ni Kpe" "E Ni Kpe" which means "He (elder)or They said"   "He said"  "He(elder person) said"  These are Pronouns and not never real names  I WILL ASK YOU DID PRONOUN EXIST BEFORE THE NAME?      THE NAME ELOHIM AND ELOAH ARE NEVER PRONOUNS THERE ARE REAL NAMES.  Infact In yoruba that you are Using gives a very Good Example,

Awon Olorun means The gods
Olorun Means God

But In Hebrew God Elohim existed before The word Eloah so you see that The Plural form of God is Hebrew tells us that The plurality of God If I could see you I will show you In the Hebrew manual Text. The JEWS KNEW THAT THERE WILL COME A MESSIAH BUT THEY EXPECTED A MILLITARY ONE THAT WILL DELIVER THE FROM ROMAN OPPRESSION AT THAT TIME WHEN ROME WAS AN EMPIRE.

If You are very conversant with the jewish nation now you will see that they still expect the messiah.  You see if Jesus is not God we are doomed because no none is worthy to carry our sins. 

You see Lucifer is an Angel and he sinned against Elohim and wanted to Overthrow the God head and he took a third of The Angels with Him and The angels could not Atone for his sins.

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


Look at his Offense

And in verse 13

And thou saidst in thy heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, above the stars of God will I exalt my throne, and I will sit upon the mount of meeting, in the uttermost parts of the north;

We are made Higher than Angels In the Spiritual realm Reason is that We have Free Will i.e We can Choose Evil or Good. So who will die for us Angels? NO

Let me now Go to Revelation where I was holding my peace. Please read carefully and be directed

Revelation :1 v  8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Here Jesus is reffered to as the Almighty.

Let us read why we need a worthy God to die for our sins, This is very complex please read The whole Revelation Chapter 5 with care and you may have to look at your bible.
In verse  2

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

You see the Question of Worthiness arises  A Strong Angel Ask The Question

Johns Dismay and fear that we are Doomed as Christians
Read verse

3 And no man in heaven, nor[b] in earth[/b], neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4[b] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy [/b] to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

If you read down You see that Jesus took the book

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


My brother Omot208 if you read In verse 8 immediately he took the book and the ELDERS BOWED DOWN AND WORSHIPED HIM

Some will say they bowed down as a sign of respect Okay make we go down and I will quote

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Jesus was worshiped here ( remember thou shalt worship no other ELOHIM) Scripture can not be broken.

Please I have Quoted The bible The Final Authority as a student of the Bible I want you to Quote me so that i can dig dieep.
God Bless
Re: Is Jesus God? by jagunlabi(m): 1:50pm On Dec 30, 2006
gbade. x:

see, i told you to lay off the sepe. Now you've begun running your mouth.
You were the first off the block with your trap.Very christianlike.

gbade. x:

We don't have faeces clogging our brains, just Scripture and tha grace, dissecting and researching the Scripture.
The same thing.Whoever said you have brains to dissect and research anything.You're sheep,you follow what you're told.Only people with their own minds have the capability to dissect and research anything.

gbade. x:

You on the other hand have your head far up your ass. No wonder you reason from the rear. seems to me it got stuck up there. You'd probably need some Anaesthetic and surgery to get it out.
Very christianlike.
Re: Is Jesus God? by omot208(f): 2:45pm On Dec 30, 2006
backslider, my name is Omot. not omoto or omotob. and i'm female.

don't even go near the book of revelation because u are taking on a task u cannot handle in a million years. renowned christian scholars have attempted to comprehend it and they still argue, so i will not even bother.

i cited the yoruba example of using plurals as a form of address for one elder, even though it indicated two elders. i did not say anything about nouns and pronouns cos i didn't see the need. it was just an example, there's no need to go into meanings. but the fact that they do not have plural pronouns to refer to God is that He is not part of their culture! they had different names and titles for their deities long before the Europeans arrived with christianity. if not i'm sure they would. i'm not so sure about their customs, but isn't their supreme deity called Eledumare or Olodumare?

it was erroneous to use the word 'angel' to refer to Jesus in his prehuman days, what i meant was 'spirit' . He did not have blood, flesh and bones, and was a spirit, just as he became after his resurrection when he could appear in a locked room.

you say Jesus opened the book, while Another sat on the throne. so u still think they decided to keep acting like they were different up to this point? puh---lease. which of the 'Hims' did they worship?

from now on i'll only reply when a valid point is made, or someone 'converts' me. wink grin
Re: Is Jesus God? by Backslider(m): 3:34pm On Dec 30, 2006
@Omotob

First Of all I am a Student of Escatology and I am very sad That I took my time to quote carefully to you in OT and NT but you just browsed through all I took time to explain. I have been Studying Revelation since 1992.

I have studied revelation and You dont know me so how do you know I am not a scholar. I have explained to you where Jesus calls himself THe Almighty. You did not dispute this with any scripture.

I have quoted the bible very well you just pick from what I say and you dont use the same bible to disqualify me. I cant not convert you That is the work of The Holy Spirit God.

In English there is PRONOUN AND NOUN. ELOHIM AND ELOAH are nouns not Pronouns The "E" is the first person Plural in the yoruba language this is used to Address an elderly person.

No one can say you should not read Revelation, for he hath choosen babes to declare is word you dont need to be a Scholar to read revelation.

Please RemQuote the
Re: Is Jesus God? by omot208(f): 10:55pm On Dec 30, 2006
Backslider,
whatever u insist on calling me is ur own wahala. Just try not to be too sad about it. I browsed through ur careful work only because most of it did not make sense to me considering my earlier posts, so I wondered why u addressed them specially to me. For good measure, I did not reply u initially when I was replying TayoD because it seemed unnecessary.

If u have been studying Revelation since 92 and this is what u have to show for it, then I must say u still have a lot of studying to do. I am not here to disqualify anyone, just to state my own beliefs. And did u just say “The Holy Spirit God”? Maybe u should explain that too.

It was u that brought up the noun and pronoun issue, read ur previous post again, so I was only responding to u and did not think it mattered if they were nouns or pronouns. Note that I used “plural ADDRESS FORMS” aka names or nouns, hellooo! How does this change anything? And I know the Yoruba language very well thank u. Isn’t my name omot?

No one stops me from reading Revelation. That does not mean I understand it perfectly.

As for the rest of ur post, all I have to say is, in the most breathless and sarcastic tone I can muster from my formidable repertoire, WHATEVER!
Re: Is Jesus God? by m4malik(m): 10:57pm On Dec 30, 2006
Hi Omot208,

It's easy to strongly disagree with, disparage and disapprove of something that doesn't square with your passion - I've been there before, so I can understand your persuasions. Some concern, though, is that you have clearly misconstrued ideas that easily flaw your arguments. I offer a few:

omot208:

the Hebrew thought God had a female side that's why their word for Him is plural.
for them to accpet Jesus as His son, they needed a female side.

No credible Hebrew ever thought this - and in any case, that's NOT 'why their word for Him is plural'. Anyone can sell you that idea, and if you're one of those looking for just about any excuse for the views you hold, there you have it!

Then again, you will find that rather than 'for them to accept Jesus as His son', they rejected Him outrightly as such! Why then would they have delivered Him up to be crucified if they actually were eager to accept Him as the very Son of God? The very confession that Jesus gave of Himself as "the Son of God" was the grounds upon which they judged Him guilty to be put to death! Did you miss this in the collective testimony of the New Testament? Here -

Mark 14:61-64
"But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death."

Luke 22:70-71
"Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth."

John 19:6-7
"When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God."

You see clearly that, rather than looking for grounds to accept Jesus as the Son of God, they aciduously sought the very opposite - 'evidences' to reject Him as such! You may not believe the New Testament attestation to this - but you need merely ask a true Hebraic Jew if he 'needed a female side' to God in order to accept Jesus! If you're making informed statements, you need hardly have run away away with that sad tale earlier.
Re: Is Jesus God? by m4malik(m): 11:00pm On Dec 30, 2006
omot208:

the Yoruba and the French use plural address forms for strangers and elders, does this make them plural? it certainly doesn't. it only indicates respect.

In divine matters of creation, worship and prayer, one cannot speak of the true God in mere reductionistic, human terms - and both the French and the Yoruba will tell you exactly that! Let me turn your attention for a moment on the Qur'an: If it is merely a matter of "respect" that the plural pronouns in the Qur'an were used as indicative of *Allah*, then it says only one thing: the deity worshipped in Islam is NOT the Creator nor God - and I say this "respectfully." You only need to pick up the Qur'an and read it - and there you find several (not a 'singular', but plural) beings claiming that they "created" man and indeed everything - and do you call this merely a term for "respect"? Sample these:

Q.23 vs.12
"Verily We created man from a product of wet earth"

Q.21 vs.35
"Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. to Us must ye return."

Q.21 vs.73
"And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve"
(the last line of this verse is translated by Pickthal as: "and they were worshippers of [size=14pt]Us[/size] (alone)." - did you catch that? So the Qur'an admits that Islam is surreptitiously polytheism cleverly disguised!!).

Q.51 vs.47-49
"And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample. . .And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out. . . And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction."

I could give you hundreds of verses in the Qur'an why this idea of mere "respect" does NOT hold true at all in matters of divine afflatus. But I come now to a very interesting point in your post:

omot208:

the Word is Jesus Christ, not God. he existed in spirit form before he was made flesh and sent to the earth to dwell among us. his 'oneness' with God is only symbolic, not physical. that is the way the verse is meant to be understood.

How you managed to accept that "the Word is Jesus Christ" and yet reject that statement by saying that the very same Word is "not God" is really sad. As clear as daylight, the verse reads in full: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1. More than a mere "symbolic" view of the deity of Jesus Christ, the Scriptures very strongly show that Jesus is God indeed. To accept a verse and then deny it in one breath is a very serious matter - think upon the implication of your arguments: such a confession is effectively denying the Lord Himself!

Anyhow, you may feel strongly about your beliefs - but it's hard to see how one can stand on good grounds if accepting and denying the very Scriptures they argue from. I wish you well - and well, Happy New Year!
Re: Is Jesus God? by omot208(f): 11:21pm On Dec 30, 2006
malik,
i explained this same thing in a previous post in which I quoted the verse where Jesus prays for his Apostles to be one just as he and his Father are one. He is God in that context because he is one with God in terms of purpose, vision and so on. Why do I even bother to repeat myself? Maybe because I like a good argument! wink

thanks for enlightnening us on the address form issue. it is not a problem for me, it was Backslider that brought it up to prove his point:
The HEBREW WORD FOR GOD IS IN THE PLURAL, Some Say it is Used STRONGLY to conote his Deity
i only discredited it by saying it was out of respect and awe. u contradict urslef at the beginning of that paragraph with the end of it:

[color=#990000]In divine matters of creation, worship and prayer, one cannot speak of the true God in mere reductionistic, human terms - and both the French and the Yoruba will tell you exactly that! Let me turn your attention for a moment on the Qur'an: If it is merely a matter of "respect" that the plural pronouns in the Qur'an were used as indicative of *Allah*, then it says only one thing: the deity worshipped in Islam is NOT the Creator nor God - and I say this "respectfully." You only need to pick up the Qur'an and read it - and there you find several (not a 'singular', but plural) beings claiming that they "created" man and indeed everything - and do you call this merely a term for "respect"?

The fact that they cannot speak of divine matters in human terms explains their attempt to make them divine - they pluralize it.but i am not a muslim and i do not wish to delve into a religion i know almost nothing about so i absolutely refrain from further comment.

i do not deny Jesus' existence or his divinity. I just do not agree that he be made equal with the Almighty God whom he himself called 'Father'. i also wish u a beautiful and more enlightening year. grin
Re: Is Jesus God? by m4malik(m): 12:18am On Dec 31, 2006
Thank you omot208.

However, let me correct a few impressions where you might have read me wrongly.

omot208:

u contradict urslef at the beginning of that paragraph with the end of it:

[color=#990000]In divine matters of creation, worship and prayer, one cannot speak of the true God in mere reductionistic, human terms - and both the French and the Yoruba will tell you exactly that!

The fact that they cannot speak of divine matters in human terms explains their attempt to make them divine - they pluralize it..

I wasn't speaking merely of "divine matters" as you misread me, but about the true God Himself ("one cannot speak of the true God in mere reductionistic, human terms" was my statement)! Often, people are fond of reducing God Himself to the level of mere man. If that still sounded like contradicting myself, think of it in terms of what is God's prerogative as against man's perculiarities, and ask yourself if the cultures of the French and Yoruba people see themselves as "God".

Second, I did not suppose for a moment that you were a Muslim - I know one when I read one. My point was that among the several cultures of the world (including your examples of the Yoruba and the French), the constructs of various languages just simply do not reflect the divine afflatus, and thus fail to capture the real essence of Who God actually is in Himself. Hence, my offer of the examples from the Qur'an to that effect.

Then. . .

omot208:

i do not deny Jesus' existence or his divinity. I just do not agree that he be made equal with the Almighty God whom he himself called 'Father'.

Precisely my point - accepting a statement of scripture and in the same breath outrightly rejecting it is quite unhealthy. How do you suppose for one moment that Jesus is "divine" and yet less than the Almighty God? That Jesus is "divine" simply means He is "God" - and that is what John 1:1 declares.

omot208:

i explained this same thing in a previous post in which I quoted the verse where Jesus prays for his Apostles to be one just as he and his Father are one. He is God in that context because he is one with God in terms of purpose, vision and so on.

Christians everywhere have the same purpose, vision and whatever else as Christ Himself - but that does not make us "God in that context." Before the birth of Jesus, He was God Himself, and it is not ministry that made Him "God" in any context - rather, it is who He is and ever has been in Himself. Let me offer you just one perspective on this. The apostle Paul by revelation penned this line:

"Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (I Cor. 2:8 ).

We only need ask, "Who is the Lord of glory?" If we turn for a moment to Psalm 24:7-10, is He any different from the One who is there described?

"Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah" (vs. 10).

Israel's "King of glory" and "The LORD of hosts" is the very same One called in Isaiah's prophecy: "the LORD of hosts", 'the first and the last' (Isa. 44:6 and 48:12) - and that is the very title Jesus used for Himself in Rev. 1:11 & 17; 2:8 and 22:13. Many people have issues with the Book of Revelation - granted. But no one reading those verses in their context will fail to see that it was Jesus Himself speaking in those verses and calling Himself "the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" - unless they would like to be so bold-faced as to deny Christ Himself!

I enjoyed your response; but it makes me wonder how anyone could affirm the deity (same connotation as "divinity"wink of Jesus Christ and yet deny that He is the very same God that the prophets worshipped in the Old Testament who has been revealed in the New. If indeed Jesus was God and yet less than "Almighty God", that would indeed be claiming He is neither God nor mighty - a very sad denial that ignores the prophets inspired confession of Him in Isaiah 9:6.
Re: Is Jesus God? by Backslider(m): 2:01am On Dec 31, 2006
@m4malik

You can only try to explain.
I have posted my answers in the most civil manner I could I cannot convert a soul. I leave the remainder for God The Holy Ghost.

I had explained from Isaiah and Revelation why he had to be God to save Us but My sister keeps moving and picking she says it is very hard to understand me and yet she responds to me.

If you look she only quotes one aspect to support a doctrine. A doctrine in Scripture is made up of several backings not one quote. because out of 2 or more witness a truth is established that is the rule of Expounding a doctrine.

I cannot go on but I am happy that we discussed christ and she is very much Educated, as paul said that christ may be preached.

I repeat if Jesus is not God Christians are doomed.
I rest my case.
Re: Is Jesus God? by m4malik(m): 2:12am On Dec 31, 2006
@Backslider,

Well, we are all learning, and I am certainly humbled by the spirited debate with good points that drew me to contribute. In all things, may God's love continue to warm our hearts, even over subjects that are deep. One verse has often helped me in situations where strong persuasions are offered:

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." - Phil. 3:15.

God bless ya both richly. . . and a very prosperous New Year to all. smiley
Re: Is Jesus God? by Pain: 5:37am On Dec 31, 2006
Dont Worry U Will Can Verify If U Make Heaven.

Or Rather Veri-Fry When U Get To Hell. shocked

Dont Rush . Its Just Matter Of Time undecided
Re: Is Jesus God? by Reverend(m): 10:58am On Dec 31, 2006
Pain:

Dont Worry U Will Can Verify If U Make Heaven.

Or Rather Veri-Fry When U Get To Hell. shocked

Dont Rush . Its Just Matter Of Time undecided

Here we go again. The wonderful Christian attitude of threatening people with burning in hell if they have a different point of view from your own. If that is the love that such nonsense (Christianity) is supposed to radiate, then I for one can do without it. undecided
Re: Is Jesus God? by m4malik(m): 11:08am On Dec 31, 2006
Thankfully, it is not. cheesy

It's always easy to be accusative, but what version of "nonsense" are your dad and the kinky-crew preaching?
Re: Is Jesus God? by Reverend(m): 11:56am On Dec 31, 2006
We preach that you should not be preached to by anyone!

There are too many religious zealots that use the Bible as a tool to manipulate and physcologically torture people.

These trash trawl the Bible looking to find chapters that can be adapted and used to brand otherwise normal people as sinners.

The sad and pathetic thing is that they do not follow the teachings of the fairy story books themselves, they just use it as a weapon against normal human beings,

As George Carlin said:

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
 
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy poo!

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of poo you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

Happy New Year!  tongue
Re: Is Jesus God? by m4malik(m): 4:34pm On Dec 31, 2006
Reverend:

We preach that you should not be preached to by anyone!

Okay, Rev - at least you should have screamed that to your dad and the kinky-crew. The message is clear: tell him to pack it and not preach to anyone.

Reverend:

There are too many religious zealots that use the Bible as a tool to manipulate and physcologically torture people.

Is that why your kinky zealots have used the Bible "as a tool to manipulate and physcologically ('psychologically', you mean?) torture the poor folks under your kinky club with just about anything from Unclad baptism to your cannabis jesus?

Reverend:

These trash trawl the Bible looking to find chapters that can be adapted and used to brand otherwise normal people as sinners.

Aye. . . such adaptations from your crew have been evidently exposed on Nairaland - and in good faith may God deliver those 'otherwise normal people' from the nude pictures your crew subjected them to.

Reverend:

The sad and pathetic thing is that they do not follow the teachings of the fairy story books themselves, they just use it as a weapon against normal human beings

Just as above - when was the last time your own crew followed the teachings of the fairy books in your kinky library?

Reverend:

As George Carlin said:

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy poo!

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of poo you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

Happy New Year! tongue

So what new thing has G. Carlin said other than his rhetorics on exactly what's going on in your kinky club?

Take heart - Happy New Year. smiley
Re: Is Jesus God? by goodguy(m): 9:01pm On Dec 31, 2006
omot28,

I really do find it ridiculous that you accept the fact that the Word is Jesus, and at the same time, deny the fact that He is God, even when the same scripture you base your argument on tells us that ". . . the Word was God".
Re: Is Jesus God? by omot208(f): 9:54pm On Dec 31, 2006
what more can i say? other than i have enjoyed a rather lengthy argument with intellectuals that i didn't think existed on this forum. and we were able to graciously accept our differences even though there was hardly a concession. but i did rethink my stand lots of times, especially with Tayo and Malik, and i searched the Bible to back myself. couldn't wait to get on nairaland the whole time. thanks guys, hope u had as much fun as i did.

goodguy, i have nothing to say to u. u will not draw me into another argument. u should read all the previous posts before u even decide to participate.
Re: Is Jesus God? by Backslider(m): 10:56am On Jan 01, 2007
@Omot208

I thank God that he was able to help you reconsider the understanding of his deity.

I will just round up with

Joshua 5

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand; and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him: 'Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?'

14 And he said: 'Nay, but I am captain of the host of the LORD; I am now come.' And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said unto him: 'What saith my lord unto his servant?'

15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua: 'Put off thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy.' And Joshua did so.

But notice in Revelation where john wanted to bow down to an angel he was prevented to do so. The Captain of The Lord's Host is The Holy Ghost he is The Commander in Chief of The Heavenly forces he is God. He could not be an Angel bowing down to an angel is not tolerated.
Re: Is Jesus God? by m4malik(m): 12:44pm On Jan 01, 2007
Happy New Year to all. cheesy

@Backslider,

While I fully agree with your summations that the Holy Ghost is God, and bowing to an angel is expressly forbidden in Scripture, I'd like to comment on just one line in your submission:

Backslider:

But notice in Revelation where john wanted to bow down to an angel he was prevented to do so. The Captain of The Lord's Host is The Holy Ghost he is The Commander in Chief of The Heavenly forces he is God. He could not be an Angel bowing down to an angel is not tolerated.

I'm rather persuaded that the Captain of the Lord's Host is the Lord Jesus Himself, and not the Holy Ghost. Certainly, the Holy Spirit leads and guides believers; however, He points believers to Jesus Christ who is our Captain.

Rev 19:11-16
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Two things stand out clear: (a) the One who in Joshua 5: 14 & 15 stands as Captain of the LORD's host is none other than the very same Lord Jesus Christ in Revelation 19:11-16. He is the One who gathers the heavenly armies that followed Him upon white horses; (b) the LORD's host include those described in Revelation as "the armies which were in heaven", as well His covenant people.

In Job 25:3 we are told that the armies of the LORD cannot be numbered; and in His divine economy or dealings with His covenant people in the OT, Israel was usually referred to as the armies of the LORD of hosts (for example, 1 Sam 17:26 & 36 - "the armies of the living God"; and Exo. 7:4 where God calls them "My armies, My people, the sons of Israel,"wink. Further, in Gen. 31:1-2, the angels are referred to as God's host.

The point here is that it is rather the Lord Jesus who is always seen as the Captain of the LORD's host - as in Revelation; and as in Heb. 2:10 where He is called the Captain of our salvation.
Re: Is Jesus God? by ayinba1(f): 8:40pm On Jan 01, 2007
This is an interesting post and although I have not read every entry here, I must confess that I am a little disappointed that many users of this forum are a little brainwashed.
First to answer the question,, Jesus is not God. If you read your bible the right way up and not upside down, you will find many instances when he referred to himself as "son of man", more times than "son of God" and never as "God". I will not be listing biblical quotes here.

Also when Jesus said in the same bible that on the day of judgment, some people will say "Oh but I performed miracles in your name" and Jesus will tell them " No,you are not of me" , Now do you think these people are non christian.

Well I'll have to break it down, these people are christians, well versed in the bible and may have even performed miracles using the name of Jesus. That does not make you right. Jesus has already warned you.

Before I wrap this up, please take time to turn your bible right side up (from upside down that it is now),
Remember the disciple of Jesus who sold his gown to buy a sword on the night Jesus was betrayed (yeah,but it was a spiritual sword, some of you might say). Well, recall then that this sword was used to cut off someone's ears.
Phew!! that must be some sharp spiritual sword.
Re: Is Jesus God? by 8oracle(m): 9:59pm On Jan 01, 2007
It isn't suprising that most so called christains have been polluted by unbibilical, devilish teachings which was propanded by a philisophical pagans the so called St Augustine and Pluto ascribing Godship to the person of Jesus Christ.

NOWHERE, I REPEAT NOWHERE in the scripture was the almightness of Godship is alluded to Jesus.

1 The bible made it clear that Jesus was the first thing created by God (Colossian 1vs15,Revelation 3vs14) and so no other thing both in the heavens and upon the earth was created without Jesus knowing i.e in the beginning of any other creation (John 1vs1,3,Proverbs 8vss 22-31)

2 When angel Gabriel came to Mary he did not inform her that she was going to bear in her womb God rather he said Read Luke 1vs 31

3 When he came to the earth neither himself nor his disciples and apostles saw to it or belief that he was God (Mathew 16vs16,John 14vs 28, John 3vs 17, I Corinthians 11vs 3 and when he died he went into heaven to present himself to God (Hewbrew 9vs24.

4 God almighty cannot be seen, (Exodus 33vs20 John 1vs 18) but Jesus had walked and been seen by thousands of persons. The almighty God cannot be killed,or subject to death (Habakkuk 1vs 12) but Jesus had died once under the hands of false accusers(the Jews) and the ruling Roman armies during his lifetime here on earth

Hence should anyone misdirects his or her woship to Jesus,it will be counted as pure idolatry,for christ never accepted to be worship (Luke 4vs8,John20vs17,Romans 1vs25) Finally at nowhere can one read in the bible that God prays or prayed,if Jesus was God can it be said he prayed to himself to answer his own prayer or prayers.

Christopagan, a la carte,fast food made christain know the truth before it is too,too late
Re: Is Jesus God? by goodguy(m): 10:10pm On Jan 01, 2007
omot208:

goodguy, i have nothing to say to u. u will not draw me into another argument. u should read all the previous posts before u even decide to participate.

Incase you do not know, that was not my first post on this thread.  I have been following this thread with keen interest since its inception, and I have read all what you posted here.  I was only stating what I felt about that part of your post.  Any normal thinking human will easily note the flaw in your logic there, and will definitely not subscribe to your interpretation of John 1:1.  No arguments at all.
Re: Is Jesus God? by omot208(f): 10:22pm On Jan 01, 2007
goodguy,
it's only an abnormal-thinking person like u that will do something as stupid as that. to ask a question that has been answered over and over again just to show what u feel. u don't sound logical, probably not to your own ears and definitely not to mine.

u shouldn't do things like that, the flaw is certainly in ur own lgoic. it only makes u sound either blind or just plain stupid.
Re: Is Jesus God? by goodguy(m): 10:35pm On Jan 01, 2007
omot208:

goodguy,
it's only an abnormal-thinking person like u that will do something as stupid as that.

What stupid thing did I do, and how does it make me an "abnormal thinker"?

omot208:

to ask a question that has been answered over and over again just to show what u feel.

I didn't ask any question, did I?

omot208:

u don't sound logical, probably not to your own ears and definitely not to mine.

This is not a competition about who sounds more logical.  I simply stated what I felt about your subjection there.  Prove me wrong if you can (and don't refer me back to your previous posts, because I have gone through them twice already).  You contradicted yourself.  I pointed that out, but you've resorted to insults, instead of attending to the matter on ground.

omot208:

u shouldn't do things like that, the flaw is certainly in your own lgoic. it only makes u sound either blind or just plain stupid.

You really don't need to get all worked up.  Happy New Year! cool
Re: Is Jesus God? by shahan(f): 10:37pm On Jan 01, 2007
Hi all,

Much as this is a great forum for exchange of ideas, I am a bit concerned that a few entries have sought to 'correct' others by quoting some texts while closing their eyes to others. For those who deny the deity (or divinity) of Jesus Christ, I wonder if they have been reading the very texts that declare His very deity. Let me offer a few by way of repetition (as I risk going over what have been said already by many):

ayinba1:

First to answer the question,, Jesus is not God. If you read your bible the right way up and not upside down, you will find many instances when he referred to himself as "son of man", more times than "son of God" and never as "God". I will not be listing biblical quotes here.

Question 1: who then was being referred to as the Word who is God in John 1:1?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Was the apostle John a little brainwashed as well when he penned those words under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? The only way to dribble round that clear affirmation is to deny that the Bible called Jesus "God" indeed. If John 1:1 can be denied by those denying Jesus' deity, then there is no reason why they can't deny His humanity.

Question 2: how many times does Jesus have to refer to Himself as "Lord" before you can confess Him as such? "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am" (John 13:13). Or how many times does He have to refer to Himself as "Christ" before you believe He is actually the Christ? I hope you actually read your own Bible the right side up to know that even if Jesus referred to Himself only once as what He did, He is actually both the "Son of Man" and the "Son of God".

Question 3: if Jesus never declared His deity, what did He mean by His claiming the very title of God for Himself in Rev. 22:13 (" I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."wink? More than that, what did He mean by claiming equality with the Father in John 10:30, as well as claiming equal honour and worship with the Father in John 5:23? In John 10:33 the Jews understood His assertion fully, and nowhere did Jesus deny or refute that assertion - that He was actually God.

ayinba1:

Also when Jesus said in the same bible that on the day of judgment, some people will say "Oh but I performed miracles in your name" and Jesus will tell them " No,you are not of me" , Now do you think these people are non christian.

I'm amazed how you can contradict yourself in just one breath. First, you seem to argue that those people were 'christian', and yet you quoted a statement that denied their being recognized as such. What is even more - you actually misquoted the Word of God: and how then do you suppose anyone would be persuaded that you've actually read the Bible?
Re: Is Jesus God? by goodguy(m): 10:43pm On Jan 01, 2007
Shahan,

Thanks for shedding more light to John 1:1.
Re: Is Jesus God? by gbadex1(m): 11:21pm On Jan 01, 2007
HAPPY NEW YEAR, PEOPLE!!!


gbade's observation and inference ---

i've been following this thread closely. First off, on the question of John 1:1, the problem with people who deny the deity of Jesus Christ often make the error of reading the statement of that passage and re-constructing it to mean something else. gbade's advice: SIMPLY READ THE PASSAGE AS IT IS. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". In that statement's simplicity is the answer, yet it's apalling and sad peeps reconstruct and miscontrue that statement and give other meanings to it.

Furthermore, not accepting/denying a fact doesn't take away from it what it is: a fact. I pray The Good Lord convicts and show those in denial enlighten, in Jesus Amen.

Once again, HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

(1) (2) (3) ... (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) ... (16) (Reply)

Do You Think It's Right Blaming Judas Iscariot For Jesus Death? / Abortion: Don't Turn Murderer For A Man, Hand Over The Baby To Him Let Him Do It / Why Do "Born Again" Christians Still Commit Sin?

(Go Up)

Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health
religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket

Links: (0) (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9)

Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2019 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 466
Disclaimer: Every Nairaland member is solely responsible for anything that he/she posts or uploads on Nairaland.