@mrpataki,

i am very much happy at all your explanations, it went a long a way to show  your level of ignorance on the topic"IS JESUS GOD". FUNNY enough, your brethren were even congratulating you over your mischievousness. i will re-explain your explanations and even back it up with questions.

NOW THE QUESTION IS STILL IS JESUS GOD AND YOU AND YOUR BRETHREN HAVE BEEN TELLING ME THAT JESUS IS THE SAME THING AS GOD. LET US NOW GO INTO YOUR EXPLANATION ONE AFTER THE OTHER.

UR EXPLANATIONS ARE BOLDED WHILE MINE IS WRITTEN IN CAPITAL LETTERS

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1.If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). Can God pray to God?
Matt 11:25 -"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

In the above scripture reference, Christ addresses God as his Father, not as his Lord. This is just to simply show that he had a loyal obedience which is expected of a son to the father and not that of a subject, which your own religion teaches you. Further references of such you could find in the following verses too.  (John 11:41; 12:28; 17:1; Lu 23:34).

WHY R U BEATING ABOUT THE BUSH. GO THROUGH YOUR RESPONSE UP, U SAID CHRIST HAD A LOYAL OBEDIENCE WHICH IS EXPECTED OF A SON TO THE FATHER.

LET ME ASK U AGAIN, IF THEY ARE BOTH SAME AND EQUAL, WHY DID U SAY OBEDIENCE OF A SON TO A FATHER. IT MEANS THEY ARE TWO SEPARATE ENTITY, SON UNDER THE OBEDIENCE OF THE FATHER? IF CHRIST AND GOD ARE SAME AND ONE, NO NEED OF HIM TO ADDRESS ANYBODY AS HIS FATHER AND NO NEED TO PRAY TO ANYBODY. CAN GOD PRAY TO GOD. BY SO DOING, IT MEANS HE IS OBEYING SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIM. HOPE U UNDERSTOOD.


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2.Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).

Matt 24:36 - But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mark 13:32 - But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Thank you babs for this question, when Jesus said that even he did not know the time of the end, he was affirming his human form in which he came into the earth has. Of course, God the Father knows the time, and Jesus and the Father are one, but when Jesus became a man, He voluntarily gave up the unlimited use of his divine attributes. The emphasis of this verses is not on Jesus's lack knowledge as a God head, but rather on the fact that as human beings, no one knows when He would return. It is God the Father's secret to reveal when he wills.

No one can predict by scripture or science the exact day of Jesus's return. The essence of this scripture is that the preparation of Jesus is not based on a specific time or calculation![/b]

WOW, DID U MEANT WHEN JESUS BECAME MAN, HE LOST HIS SENSES AND FORGOT THE THINGS INCLUDING WHEN THE WORLD WILL END! (SO GOD  IN THE FORGET THINGS HUH). BY THE WAY WHERE WAS IT WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE THAT JESUS GAVE UP THE UNLIMITED USE OF HIS DIVINE ATTRIBUTES TO TAKE HUMAN FORM?.

but rather on the fact that as human beings, no one knows when He would return. It is God the Father's secret to reveal when he wills.

EXPLAIN THE ABOVE. IS THE GOD HEAD DIFFERENT FROM JESUS COS U SAID ITS ONLY THE GOD FATHER THAT KNOWS WHEN?

No one can predict by scripture or science the exact day of Jesus's return. The essence of this scripture is that the preparation of Jesus is not based on a specific time or calculation![/
THATS NOT THE ISSUE.

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3.Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).
John 5:19 -Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:30 - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 6:38 - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

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As much as possible babs, never pick a scripture in isolation always look at the scripture before it and as well those after it too, just to get a better understanding as well.
He shows that there is the closest co-operation between the Father and Son. What the Father does the Son will do, even to the extent of giving life to the dead.
Because of his unity with God, Jesus lived as God wanted him to live. Just to further show his obedience to the will of the Father! [/b]

TKS FOR THAT, I WILL NOT PICK A SCRIPTURE IN ISOLATION. "CLOSEST COOPERATION" PLS MAKE ME UNDERSTAND, FROM UR EXPLANATION IT SHOWED THAT JESUS AND GOD ARE SEPARATE ENTITY.

MIND YOU, JESUS WASNT THE ONLY PERSON TO DO SUPERNATURAL THINGS LKE GIVING LIFE TO THE DEAD. IF AS A RESULT OF GIVING LIFE TO THE DEAD MADE HIM GOD WHAT OF THE ELIJAH AND ELISHA, WHY NOT CALL THEM GOD.

1ST KINGS 17V22: AND THE  LORD HEARD THE VOICE OF ELIJAH, AND THE SOUL OF THE CHILD CAME INTO HIM AGAIN, AND HE REVIVED.

2ND KINGS 4V34: AND HE (ELISHA) WNET UP AND LAY UPON THE CHILD AND PUT HIS MOUTH UPON HIS MOUTH AND HIS EYES UPON HIS EYES AND HIS HANDS UPON HIS HANDS AND HE STRETCHED HIMSELF UPON THE CHILD AND THE FLESH  OF THE CHILD WAXED WARM.

Because of his unity with God, Jesus lived as God wanted him to live. Just to further show his obedience to the will of the Father! [/b]
U SHOULD HAVE SAID GOD LIVED THE WAY GOD WANTED HIMSELF TO LIVE

[b]4.Did "God the Son" die? The Bible says the Son died (Romans 5:10). If so, can God die? Can part of God die?
Romans 5:10 - For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

DID U READ THE ABOVE URSELF. IT SAYS " RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON. MEANING THAT JESUS IS DIFFERENT FROM GOD. JESUS DIED BUT GOD CANNOT DIE

Ok, hope with all my effort, you will take time to read it thorough and get an understanding from it. Now the above scripture goes to show that As sinners, we are the enemies of God, rebels, under his divine displeasure. Through the gospel of the Crucified Redeemer, we obtain peace with God. We turn to him, and are reconciled to him, obtaining forgiveness through faith. God is not reconciled to us, but we to him. His love ever shines, and is shown in his gospel. He is ever ready to pardon, and when we cease our rebellion, and come to him, through Christ, for mercy, he receives us. Yes he died because he came as flesh and blood and dwelt amongst us for real![/b]

OFF THE LINE. NO RELEVANCE. I ASKED U CAN GOD DIE?

5. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Certainly the Old Testament does not teach three but emphasizes oneness. If the New Testament adds to the Old Testament message and teaches three persons, then what is to prevent subsequent revelations of additional persons? If we apply trinitarian logic to interpret some verses of Scripture, we could teach a fourth person (Isaiah 48:16; Colossians 1:3; 2:2; I Thessalonians 3:11; James 1:27). Likewise, we could interpret some verses of Scripture to mean six more persons (Revelation 3:1; 5:6).
Isiah 48:16 - Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

CAN U EXPLAIN THIS TO ME. WHAT R U DRIVING AT?

[b]Colossians 1:3 - We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

DIDNT U READ WHAT U POSTED, THE VERSE ABOVE SAYS, THE FATHER OF JESUS, MEANING THAT JESUS IS DIFFERENT FROM GOD. CANT U COMPREHEND?

Colossian 2:2 - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
EXPLAIN PLS.

I Thessalonians 3:11 - Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you. EXPLAIN TOO. DID U MEANT THEY R EQUAL?

James 1:27 -  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

WHATS THE RELATIONSHIP OF THIS TO MY QUESTION?

Revelation 3:1 - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

WHY QUOTING THIS TOO. (SEVEN SPIRITS MEANING FULLNESS OF GOD INDEED, SO GOD HAS SEVEN SPIRITS, WHERE WAS IT WRITTEN) U CAN SEE WHERE THE REMARKABLE VISION OF JOHN IS LEADING U (MIND U I STILL HAVE MORE IN YOUR REVELATION WHERE UR HIDING AS BEING THE WORD OF JESUS)!!!HAVING CONCLUDED THAT SEVEN SPIRITS MEANS FULLNESS OF GOD, MAYBE U WILL EXPLAIN THE BEASTS OF FULL EYES BEFORE AND BEHIND IN REV 4 V5

Wow babs thank you for acknowledging the Oneness in the Godhead, you really had to go study the bible hard to find this out, anyways the scriptures you have earlier outlined here goes to show a relationship between the Father God head, and the Holy Spirit and as well showing the relationship God has with the son which is Christ Jesus!

U SAID THE SCRIPTURES GOES A LONG WAY TO SHOW THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FATHER GOD HEAD AND RTHE HOLY SPIRIT AND SHOWING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN GOD AND SON JESUS. WHY R U STILL ARGUING WHEN UVE ADMITTED IN UR STATEMENT ABOVE THAT JESUS IS THE SON. CAN THE SON BE THE FATHER TOO. PNDER ON IT TOO.

The perfect number of seven denotes fullness. He hath the fulness of the Spirit whom he sends into the earth to do his work. (Revelation 1:16) [/b]

CAN U BRING THE PROOF ON THE ABOVE THAT SHOWS SEVEN MEANS FULLNESS. ( I STILL HAVE MORE EXAMPLES FROM THE SO CALLED REVELATION)

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6There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8,18, 4: . Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?
Revelation 4:2 - And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

MEANING THAT JESUS IS DIFFERENT FROM GOD. HE WAS REFERRING TO GOD AS BEING THE ONE SITTING ON THE THRONE.

Revelation 1:8 -  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

LET ME ADD TO IT TOO
Revelation 1:11 in the KJV has a reference to Alpha and Omega as applied to Jesus Christ.
THIS TITLE IS ABSENT IN THE RSV AND THE ANCIENT TEXTS. IT APPEARS ONLY IN THE RECEPTUS AND HENCE THE KJV
HENCE THE ORIGINAL TEXT WHICH READS MORE OR LESS AS THE RSV:
REVELATION 1:11: SAYING, "WRITE WHAT YOU SEE IN A BOOK AND SEND IT TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES, TO EPHESUS AND TO SMYRNA AND TO PER'GAMUM AND TO THYATI'RA AND TO SARDIS AND TO PHILADELPHIA AND TO LA-ODICE'A." (RSV)
THIS TEXT BECOMES IN THE KJV:
REVELATION 1:11:  SAYING, I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE FIRST AND THE LAST: AND, WHAT THOU SEEST, WRITE IN A BOOK, AND SEND IT UNTO THE SEVEN CHURCHES WHICH ARE IN ASIA; UNTO EPHESUS, AND UNTO SMYRNA, AND UNTO PERGAMOS, AND UNTO THYATIRA, AND UNTO SARDIS, AND UNTO PHILADELPHIA, AND UNTO LAODICEA. (KJV)
REVELATION 1:8 EXPLAINS THIS REFERENCE AS APPLYING TO GOD WHO REVELATION 1:6 SAYS IS THE GOD AND FATHER OF CHRIST.
REVELATION 1:8  "I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA," SAYS THE LORD GOD, WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHTY. (RSV)
WE SEE AGAIN THE KJV USING THE RECEPTUS DELETES THE WORDS HO THEOS OR THE GOD AND USES ONLY KURIOS OR LORD. THE TEXT THEN CARRIES THE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT AND FRAUDULENT INTENT OF BOTH TEXTS REFERRING TO CHRIST WHEN ALPHA AND OMEGA ARE DISTINCTLY VESTED IN THE LORD GOD AND FATHER OF CHRIST AND NOT APPLIED TO CHRIST AT ALL FROM THE BEGINNING.

Revelation 1:17 and 2:8 do not contain the words Alpha and Omega. They use protos and eschatos which imply another concept in distinction to the Alpha and Omega.
Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last, (RSV)
Revelation 2:8  "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: `The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. (RSV)
THE TERMS PROTOS AND ESCHATOS CARRY THE CONCEPTS CONTAINED IN REVELATION 3:14 WHERE CHRIST IS THE ARCHE OR BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD AS PROTOTOKOS OR FIRST BEGOTTEN AS A SPIRITUAL SON. HE LATER BECAME THE ONLY BORN GOD OF JOHN 1:18 (AS THEOS OR ELOHIM OR MONOGENE THEOS).
LET ME STOP HERE BUT MORE ON THAT LATER IN ORDER NOT TO DEVIATE FROM THE MAIN QUESTION.

When the throne of God was revealed, the One that was stated in Revelations 4:2 is the God head himself not Jesus as you want to incite here, even Jesus himself said his place is at the right hand side of God the Father! Please refer to Revelation 3:21 for better understanding.

IF U KNOW ALL THESE, WHY SAYING JESUS IS GOD HAVING WRITTEN IT YOURSELF THAT JESUS’S PLACE IS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD AND NOT GOD’S POSITION, DON’T U UNDERSTAND?

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7 If Jesus is on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? (Mark 16:19). Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? (Acts 7:55). Or is He in the Father's bosom? (John 1:18).
Mark 16:19 - So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Acts 7:55 -  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Really babs are you this stupid and totally bereft of common nursery 1 comprehension   At various instances did each individual(Stephen in Acts and John in the book of John) have a vision of seeing Jesus and do note it was not at the same time, and whether he was standing or sitting down the fact still remains that each had seen Jesus on the right hand throne side of God!!!!!!
WHO IS STUPID BETWEEN U AND I. INFACT U R THE MOST STUPID AND MISCHIEVOUS CREATURE VE EVER DEALTH WITH. WHY BEATING ROUND THE BUSH. WHY R U SO SHORT OF UNDERSTANDING, WHY CONTINUING WALLOWING IN IGNORANCE. U CLAIMED TO BE KNOWLEDGEABE BUT ALAS U TURNED OUT TO BE A SHAME. HAVENT U BE FOLLOWING UR POST AND PARTICULARLY THE ONE POSTED UP HERE. U SAID JESUS IS GOD AND THAT HE TOOK HUMAN FORM IN ORDER TO COME TO THE EARTH AND PREACH TO PEOPLE (AS PUT BY MANY CHRISTIANS).
U CLAIMED THAT JESUS TURNED HIMSELF TO MAN IN ORDER TO COME TO THIS EARTH AND TALK TO PEOPLE. HE WAS GOD IN HEAVEN BUT TURNED HIMSELF TO MAN IN ORDER TO COME TO EARTH ABI. NOW DON’T U HAVE SENSES, WHEN HE DIED, DO U EXPECT HIM TO STILL HAVE THE HUMAN FORM IN HEAVEN COS HE NEVER NEEDED THE HUMAN FORM IN HEAVEN BUT ONLY ON EARTH, BUT FROM THE VERSE QUOTED ABOVE, AFTER HE HAD LEFT THE EARTH, THEY STILL SEE HIM IN HUMAN FORM AND SITTING NOT ON THE THRONE BUT AT THE RIGHT HAND SIDE OF GOD.
IF HE IS GOD, HE IS SUPPOSED TO SIT ON THE THRONE, SITTING BY THE SIDE OF GOD SHOWS THAT THEY ARE SEPARATE BEING AND THAT GOD IS HIS LORD.
DON’T U HAVE SENSE. THINK MAN AND STOP CONTRADICTING YOURSELF

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8 Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.
Colossians 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.I will answer it as thus: You must not be drawn from Christ. He is all in all. In him is the divine fullness (all divine power). In him as revealed was God in bodily form. Compare John 1:14.
BE SPECIFIC AND ANSWER MY QUESTION. I ASKED U IS JESUS THE GODHEAD OR GODHEAD IN JESUS BUT U NEVER ANSWERED MY QUESTION. I NEVER ASKED FOR BEING ALL IN ALL, U SAW THE BIBLICAL QUOTES AND U SAW MY QUESTION TOO. I NEED UR ANSWER

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9 Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).
Ephesians 1:19 - And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Ephesians 1:20 - Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
John 2:19-21 - 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.

To answer your question, Ephesians 1:20 has answered it. It is God at work babs!!!!

I CAN SEE THAT U ARE MORE DILLUSIONED THAN I EVER THINK. WHY CONTRADICTING YOURSELF.
THE VERSE (EPHESIAN 1V20) SAID IT ALL AND U QUOTED IT AS WELL.IT SAYS HE RAISED JESUS AND SET HIM AT HIS RIGHT HAND SIDE AND NOT ON HIS VERY THRONE. NA WA FOR YOU, U STILL CANT COMPREHEND THAT GOD IS GREATER AND DIFFERENT FROM JESUS

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10.If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10).
Luke 12:10 - And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Even though the holyspirit is as gentle as a dove, God knew the heart of man before time that it is desperatley wicked and could want to take the gentleness and meekness of the holyspirit for granted! In other words ascribing the work of the holyspirit to the devil is blasphemy!
Mt 12:31; Mk 3:28
MY BROTHER ( U BE REAL CUNNY MAN). U READ THE QUESTION BUT UR RESPONSE WAS OFF THE TRACK. WAS IT HOLY SPIRIT ALONE THEY TOOK FOR GRSNTED, DIDN’T THEY TOOK SON OF MAN FOR GRANTED TOO? WHY  FORGIVEN THAT AGAINST SON OF MAN AND LEAVING THAT OF HOLY SPIRIT. IF HOLY GHOST AND SON OF MAN ARE EQUAL, SPEAKING AGAINST ANY OF THEM SHOULD BE BLASPHEMOUS WHICH WILL SHOW THAT THEY R BOTH EQUAL. BUT HERE IT SHOWED THAT HOLY SPIRIT IS GREATER THAN THE SON OF MAN ABI NO BE SO.

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11. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father, or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26).
John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Oh babs oh babs oh babs,
I know you know that Jesus was sent from Father to reconcile the heart of Man back to God, here on earth, so what confuses you now?, when we have the third head of the trinity who is the holyspirit sent by God to those who will accept the Lordship of Jesus here on earth as their guide as the scripture above refers?

U ARE MORE OR LESS BABA SUWE OR MR LATIN (NIGERIAN COMEDIANS). UVE NOT ANSWERED MY QUESTION. I HAVENT SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE THAT JESUS WASN’T SENT FROM GOD, IN FACT THAT IS THE REASON FOR THE OPENING OF THIS THREAD. WE BOTH AGREED TO THRASH OUT THIS TOPIC ON ANOTHER THREAD AND I OPENED THIS THREAD. I HAVE BEEN TELLING YOU FROM THE BEGINNING THAT JESUS WAS SENT FROM GOD BUT U CLAIMED HE WAS GOD HIMSELF.U CAN SEE YOURSELF NOW, VERY DILLUSIONED. NA REAL WA O
MIND YOU, IF YOU DON’T KNOW, THE ABOVE VERSE WASN’T REFERING TO JESUS BUT TO WHO WILL COME AFTER HIM.
THE QUESTION STILL IS “IS HOLY SPIRIT GOD”? AND IF ITS EQUAL TO GOD, WHY WAS IT SENT FROM GOD.
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12.Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).
Mark 13:32 - But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son,but the Father.
Please refer to question 2 where this same question as been dealt with as well.[/b]

ALSO REFER TO QUESTION FOR MY RESPONSE TOO. NA WA HOLY SPIRIT IS UNAWARE OF LAST DAY DESPITE BEING GOD.

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13. if jesus and God are same and one, who was jesus praying to at Gethsemane?
Please refer to question 1 for the answer but just incase you don't understand what i just meant now, the answer is God.

WONDERS SHALL NEVER END, PROFESSOR PATAKI, GOD ON EARTH PRAYED TO GOD IN HEAVEN AND THE GOD IN HEAVEN SENT SPIRIT TO GOD ON EARTH (HAVING HEARD GOD’S ON EARTH’S PRAYER) TO STRENGHTEN HIM AGAINST DEATH. NA WA OOOOOOOOOO

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14. when jesus was crucified, whom did he shouted to that "why has thou forsaken me"?

Kai kai, babs787,
What English is this?
It was to his Father!
U CAN ASK YOUR BIBLE FOR THE MEANING OF THE ENGLISH
Matt.27:46-50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" , Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
JESUS (GOD ON EARTH) CRIED TO GOD IN HEAVEN FOR HIS NEGLECTING HIM TO DIE.
IF THEY ARE EQUAL AND ALSO SAME, NO NEED FOR HIM TO PRAY TO GOD IN HEAVEN SINCE HE IS SAME.

U CLAIMED THAT JESUS IS ALSO GOD BUT FAILED IN ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS ASKED YOU RATHER YOU CONTINUED NAILING AND CONTRADICTING YOURSELF. FUNNY ENOUGH, YOUR BROTHER MALIK WAS EVEN PRAISING YOU HAVING FAILED IN PROVIDING EXPLANATION TO THE QUESTIONS ABOVE.WONDERS SHALL NEVER END.

U NEED TO BURY YOUR HEAD.

NA FOR YOU, MAY GOD FORGIVE U FOR ALL UR BLASPHEMOUS STATEMENTS AGAINST GOD BY ASCRIBING JESUS TO BE GOD.

AM STILL WAITING FOR YOUR RESPONSE. JESUS IS A SEPARATE ENTITY FROM GOD, HE WAS SENT FROM GOD AND CANNOT BE GOD.

This is Insanity --People Arguing If Jesus is GOD--- This is so sadistic---that We still have to be told If JESUS CHRIST is GOD

Reverend i'v told U---U r a devil sent! Desist 4m the brethren --U a Demon
& to others that believes Jesus is not GOD, Get thee behind US satan!

Poster dnt U ave any other WORK doin? hmmmm

Hmm. I didn't know that. So Jesus is God. Wow!!

May God never let those who play with name of Jesus unpunish,

@Jaybaby

Yeah yeah yeah, bla bla bla , Jesus could be Elvis in disguise? or the other way around!

It is the same as asking if Santa Claus is Father Christmas , very similar actually, He also does not exist

@mrpataki,

I am of the same belief as you, and your explanations are on par.

Most christians are unable to see that the role of Christ as a man witnesed Him praying to His father, and even calling Him God at one point.

Christ was fully human, and fully God. He couldn't be both at the same time when He was here as a man, and that is why He had to be completely submitted to His Father. His being submissive didn't mean that He wasn't equal to His Father.

Isn't it enough that God the Father called His Son God as recorded in Hebrews 1? Listen as Paul reminds us:

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

The bible says that there is one God. What does the expression God mean? Does it mean one person, or does it mean one government? That is where the problem lies. People are attributing the term God only to the Father, without realizing that the same title belongs to the Son. Both are diety.

So even though the Son while on earth at one point in time prayed to God His Father, and even referred to His Father as God doesn't make Jesus a lesser God, because that would mean that there are more than one Gods.

Thanks Bobbyaf
What more can i say, guess this babs of an entity just cant understand simple English when written out to him.


II Corinthians 13:8 -We can do nothing against the truth but for the truth.

@mrpataki,

u r far from from the truth.

i asked u questions but u failed in responding and even re-posted your response word for word. why cant u be sincere with yourself and go over your 'supposed response' , most of your answer fell below the track.

dont u comprehend that u contradicted yourself with your response. think man, u claimed jesus is God but responded with something far from what uve been saying.

u started your confusion right from your organogram and now when i threw questions at you again, u couldnt answer, rather you were giving me irrelevant posts.

u even gave me a quote in which jesus said i and father are i and i asked if that could made him to be God what of similar satement in which he said he and disciples are one, u buried that one till today.

go over the questions again and your response and my reply to your 'supposed answers'.

i also asked u in one of the questions when jesus cried to God that why has thou forsaken and u said he was crying to God, but i asked u WAS GOD CRYING TO GOD, no response, maybe u will respond now.

also when he went to pray at Gethsemane, he cried and prayed to God three times and God sent holy spirit to strenghen him, i ask again, was God crying and begging God (himself)?


in addtion, at the same gethsemane, he begged God to lift the cup (death) from him and his sweat were like that of blood, i ask again
why was he praying to himself to the extent that his sweat was like that of blood

NA WA OOOOOO MRPATAKI

JESUS IS GOD INDEED.

@ babs787,
I will try to explain certain things to you without making referencce to the scriptures for now.
Now Jesus's coming to the earth was to make a reconciliation of the heart of man back to God his Maker. And did God do it, by sending his only begotten Son Jesus (John 3:16) to serve as a mediator of the heart of man from its rebellion destruction into sin back to God our Maker.
So how did God do, Jesus had to come into the earth taking up the human form, in flesh and blood, felt the tribulations that we go through, got tempted like we do get tempted here on earth too, but He never fell for the temptation both by man and even the devil himself

He left his heavenly glory and riches and took upon himself the task of been slain for our sins in human form(that was why his side was pierced blood gushed out from his sides). What manner of love is this that a man should lay down his life for all men!.

So when Jesus was talking in the New Testament, there were times he talked as the human form he came as and there were times he had to talk according to the spirit.

So babs if you yet cant understand this, then you are left on your own!

[quote author=jaybaby link=topic=33222.msg796599#msg796599 date=1167990825

Reverend i'v told U---U r a devil sent! Desist 4m the brethren --U a Demon
& to others that believes Jesus is not GOD, Get thee behind US satan!

"Fillet of a marsh snake,
In the cauldron boil and bake:
Eye of newt and toes of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blindworm's sting,
Lizard's leg and owlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble."

I am going to turn Jaybaby into a hamster  

I am the little devil ,  he he he ha ha ha

@ babs787,
Since you are so evasive in going to topics that addresses the falsehood in islam, i will ask you here, why do muslime wear long beards?
I asked a question as well in the topic posted by mukina2 please go there as well and answer me.

You guys try to hide under the cover of answer my question syndrome while evading the questions that addresses your falsehood.

@mrpataki,

what topic have i evaded? and can you bring out the falsehood u r claiming.

well, in all sincerity, u never answered my questions here. i asked u certain questions but u gave me stories based on your own perception.

u read in the bible in many instances that showed the greatness of God over jesus and u also read verses in which jesus claimed that God sent him, u would have read too where he cited God as the father.

mrpataki, u hid under a verse in which i came with a similar verse but nothing was done on that.

lastly i asked same questions twice but all you could tell me was that jesus came down from heaven, too human form and died like normal being.

havent u read in your bible that our God is Immortal and that none can be compared and none cant be likened to him.

i asked you that if God left heaven to come down here, who was he praying to to the extent that his sweat were like blood.

also on the cross, he shouted too,

lastly u quoted john 3v16; for God so loved the world that heg ave his only begotten son,

the above says God sent his only begotten son meaning that God is above jesus (even based on your earlier organogram).

for God to have sent Jesus, it showed that God is greater than jesus and the two are not equal.

there are many instances in the bible in which Jesus made mention of God as being the one that sent him so they can never be same.

also i asked you why is that the blaspheme against son has forgiveness but that of Holy spirit doesnt, but u told me that God made the holy spirit gentle as dove or whatever cos of human nature and i asked u wasnt jesus tempted too.

MY BROTHER, TKS FOR TAKING YOUR TIME IN ALLOWING ME TO EXPAIN TO YOU WHAT REMAINS A MYSTERY TO YOU IN WHICH YOU HAVE NO SUFFICIENT BACKING.

BUT THE EARLIER YOU KNOW THE BETTER AND STOP ALL THESE BLASPHEMOUS STATEMENTS and seek God's forgiveness.

JESUS WAS SENT FROM GOD AND NOT GOD.

now, i will go and contribute to the thread u told me to.

till i hear from you, stay blessed

hey guys, I'm not like the devil incarnate or anything, far from it but the thing is i don't believe Jesus is God. i was born into a catholic home where the trinity stuff was like ahhhh. but have you guys ever stopped to consider the fact that the bible was written by men who could have written down anything including their hallucinations. the thing is this, if we had a camera back then, then Jesus's face would have been everywhere and thats so non-God. I'll tell you why people fear God, its because they can't see him and so don't understand him chikena.

brizio, kpn t ril

Bobbyaf:

Christ was fully human, and fully God. He couldn't be both at the same time when He was here as a man

While not denying the deity of Christ, you actually have missed the whole point. Christ was fully Human and fully God - and he certainly was both at the same time. His humanity did not reduce His deity at any point, and what He was before He became Man remained while He ministered among men.

@Brizio,

Brizio:

hey guys, I'm not like the devil incarnate or anything, far from it but the thing is i don't believe Jesus is God.

Not believing that Jesus is God does not make you the devil incarnate. However, the reason why you can't believe why He is expressly God is because you choose not to believe that the Bible is inspired by God, as you have hinted at:

Brizio:

have you guys ever stopped to consider the fact that the bible was written by men who could have written down anything including their hallucinations.

Christians who know God have never denied that the Words you read in the Bible were written by the hands of men. But mark well that what you call 'hallucinations' are clearly the inspired word of God -

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" - 2 Pet. 1:21. . . and >>

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" - 2 Tim. 3:16.

You may like to call what God has inspired as 'hallucinations', but carefully consider what that is saying about you. Reading your lines only makes you sound like you neither know God nor believe in Him. Let me share this with you:

As a muslim, we were taught the very things you pressume while at the same time made to believe that the Qur'an was not written by men, but by Allah himself! Even internal evidence in the Qur'an itself shows that assumption to be very wrong - for regardless of any arguments any muslim will put up, the Qur'an was written by men and not by Allah.

It was the love and power of the true God that opened my eyes to see to the truth of the Bible; and it declares that Jesus is indeed God - John 1:1.

Reverend srry 4 ya LIFE

@ m4malik

While not denying the deity of Christ, you actually have missed the whole point. Christ was fully Human and fully God

That we agree on, so I cannot see how I missed the point.

- and he certainly was both at the same time.

Yes he was both God and human, but what you need to highlight is that Christ could not have acted out His divinity while on earth, that is why He totally depended on His Father for everything, including the very miracles He wrought. He became a servant of His Father.

Phil. 2:7,8
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

John 6:38
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 8:28
, I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 12:49
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

MrGold:

SAY, GOD IS ONE WHOM ALL DEPEND
HE BEGETS NOT ,NOR IS HE BEGOTTEN
HE IS ETERNAL AND NO ONE LIKE UBTO HIM[b]

analysis:

FATHER + SON+SPIRIT ='3'  NOT '1'  therefore NONE of them is God

MrGold, welcome to the forum. Let me analyse your analysis:

Speaking of your own *Allah*, this is what you said of him: "HE IS ETERNAL AND NO ONE LIKE UBTO HIM". You may actually believe that Islam is monotheistic, but then let me ask you this: If no one is like unto the *Allah* of the Qur'an, then who are those who do exactly the same thing as he does:

Question 1. Are there more than one *Allah* as creator in the Islam?
The Qur'an says an emphatic YES!! Read the following:

Sura 6 vs.94
"And behold! ye come to Us bare and alone as We created you for the first time: ye have left behind you all (the favours) which We bestowed on you. . ."

Sura 7 vs.11
"It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate."

Q.23 vs.12
"Verily We created man from a product of wet earth"

Q.51 vs.47-49
"And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample. . .And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out. . . And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction."
    -------      ----------     ------------      ------------    ------------     ----------


Question 2. Are there more than one *Allah* that people pray to in Islam?
The Qur'an says an emphatic YES!! See for yourself:

Sura 10 vs.12
"When trouble toucheth a man, he crieth unto Us (in all postures)- lying down on his side, or sitting, or standing. But when We have solved his trouble, he passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that touched him! thus do the deeds of transgressors seem fair in their eyes!"
    -------      ----------     ------------      ------------    ------------     ----------


Question 3. Are there more than one *Allah* that is being worshipped in Islam?
Qur'an answers with an emphatic YES!! Check it out for yourself:

Q.21 vs.73
"And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve"  (translated by Pickthal, the verse truly reads: "and they were worshippers of Us (alone)." - meaning that more than one *allah* is being worshipped by Muslims and they don't even know it!!).

The Qur'an even states that this polytheistic gods in Islam will be the judges of all Muslims:

Q.21 vs.35
"Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. to Us must ye return."

So, MrGold. . . you see that your monotheism is actually polytheism disguised; and though you can swear by Muhammad, it does not change the fact that there are several "gods" being worshipped by Muslims. The Qur'an declares more than one *allah* who say that "Verily We created man" (analysis: "WE" is not equal to monotheism); it is these many *allahs* that Muslims blindly worship, as they testified: "and they were worshippers of Us (alone).". . . and it is to these many "gods" that they pray to >> he crieth unto Us (in all postures)- !

Yet, you may not know it - but these many deities cannot save, and Muhammad himself had no assurance towards the end of his life after serving, praying to, worshipping and crying to these many *allahs* >>

Sahih Muslim, [10], Book 4, Number 1212:
Narrated Aisha: "The Prophet entered my house when a Jewess was with me and she was saying: Do you know that you would be put to trial in the grave? The Messenger of Allah trembled (on hearing this) and said: It is the Jews only who would be put to trial. Aisha said: We passed some nights and then the Messenger of Allah said: Do you know that it has been revealed to me: "You would be put to trial in the grave"? Aisha said: I heard the Messenger of Allah seeking refuge from the torment of the grave after this."

Is this what your analysis leads you to trust - in *allahs* that bring torment and cannot save?

Bobbyaf:

Yes he was both God and human, but what you need to highlight is that Christ could not have acted out His divinity while on earth,

You're still denying what you try to teach. First, you stated earlier that He could not have been both God and Human; now you come back denying your own premise.

Now it is queer that you could acknowledge His deity and Humanity but see only the latter without the former. The Bible reveals that He manifested His deity in His Humanity - not one without the other. While on earth as Man, here are a few text that show Him manifesting His power and glory as Divine:

John 1:14 - "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

John 11:25 - "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."

Matt. 9:6 - "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house."

John 3:19  "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

The fact that the divine Son sought the will of the Father did not take away from the Divinity of the Son. This does not mean that Jesus died as "God": He died as Man as the Scriptures testify. However, even while He was on earth, He was still the very One in whom all things subsist - Heb. 1:3.

You're still denying what you try to teach. First, you stated earlier that He could not have been both God and Human; now you come back denying your own premise.

Why didn't you ask me to explain what I meant without having to accuse me all the time? Why must you be so negative and aggressive all the time? Didn't I qualify what I meant to you in my second response?

Now it is queer that you could acknowledge His deity and Humanity but see only the latter without the former. The Bible reveals that He manifested His deity in His Humanity - not one without the other. While on earth as Man, here are a few text that show Him manifesting His power and glory as Divine:

The bible said nothingof the sort. Its your false interpretation you're putting forward. I gave you ample texts to explain my position, but becauase you possess the spirit of agression, everything I say will always be wrong for you.

The bible distinctly said Christ became obedient unto death, which means that while He was alive He could not use His divinity. After His death however, He regained all that He lay aside. He had to pass the test first as the 2nd Adam before all power was given unto Him again.

John 1:14 - "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Exactly! Only that glory came from the Father. Not a good text to support your argument. many times Christ said that He could do nothing except the father who sent Him worked through Him. So in essence Christ's life on earth was meant to glorify His Father, but it still doesn't gainsay what I said about Christ laying aside His deity, for the sole purpose of being submissive. What would be the point of Christ saying to His father "Thy will be done, not my will" if He had the freedom to do as He pleased?

John 11:25 - "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."

Only after He Himself passed the test of obedience. Only after He was resurrected could He once again call upon His divine powers to resurrect others. The fact that Christ was under a test means that He was not allowed to use His divine power as an advantage. In other words how could Christ be considered our example if he were allowed to use His powers? He had to be subjected to the same conditions that we're subjected to in order to claim back that power He once had before. That is why He prayed thus:

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Going back to the text you used about Christ's glory. The glory mentioned by John had nothing to do with physical glory, or omni-potence, but the way that Christ's lie would bring honour to His father's name while living on earth. In John 17 it is saying that Christ's life was what really glorified His Father. The real power lay in His obedient life and death. If He didn't live perfectly then His death would be in vain, and He Himself would have been a cast away. That power over all flesh only came through His willingness to live a life of obedience. We too can get that power over the flesh as we submitt to God on a daily basis.

Matt. 9:6 - "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house."

So do we! How else can you forgive without the power? Jesus said "forgive those who trespass against you", and He pointed us to His Father who art in heaven.

The fact that the divine Son sought the will of the Father did not take away from the Divinity of the Son. This does not mean that Jesus died as "God": He died as Man as the Scriptures testify. However, even while He was on earth, He was still the very One in whom all things subsist - Heb. 1:3.

I am not questioning the Son's divinity, I am simply saying He was not allowed to use it. That's been my argument from day one. Having access to it and beng allowed to use it are quite different. You see He couldn't have His cake and eat all at once. Its either He would be obedient unto death, or not. That was the real test, and that is why it must have hurt Jesus when His own people jeered Him on to use His power.

He could have come down from that cross by calling upon the cast-aside divinity, but He didn't preferring to obey His Father's will.

@Bobbyaf,

I'm not here to fill in the gap for m4malik or anyone. But it come across to me that you have issues that you cannot bear yourself, and that's why you think people are 'aggressive' simply because you don't agree with them.

That said, you are clearly inconsistent in your bearing. This is why:

1. Jesus cannot be both God and Human at the same time:

Bobbyaf:

Christ was fully human, and fully God. He couldn't be both at the same time when He was here as a man, and that is why He had to be completely submitted to His Father.

2. Then, Christ was both God and Human:

Bobbyaf:

Yes he was both God and human, but what you need to highlight is that Christ could not have acted out His divinity while on earth,

Anyone can see that what you hold on the one hand is quickly denied in the same breath. And if someone tries to point it out to you, then you think he's being aggressive. No one is accusing you, and there's no reason why you would think m4malik's piece sounds like he was putting you on spot. And what you have just come off doing is sound like Jesus was not God on earth because He addressed His Father in submission to His divine will.

There's simply no need to make noise about anyone accusing you; it simply makes you look and sound exactly like the accusation you levy at others.

@shahan,

Lol. . . I don't feel you're filling any gap for me, actually. He's entitled to his opinions and thinks if anyone disagrees with him, then the person must be 'aggressive' of sorts. Holding a belief and at the same time denying it, is not making his lengthy epistle any more dressed up than it already was. If you have seen that, nothing more to say, shahan. Peace.

Peace, bro.

The Bible is a compilation of books which share similar origins with the Jewish Torah.  The books were selected under the influence of a Roman Emperor by his subject  for political reasons.  The acceptability of some of these books was debated many Christian scholars in th those days.  Indeed, books of the Bible contradict themselves many times.

Where are the other scriptures that were left out?
Was the Emperor and his subject influenced by God in selecting the books of the Bible?

@Bioye,

That weathered idea that the Bible was compiled by a Roman Emperor for political reasons have been carefully refuted time and again by even non-Christian historians.

First, you'll find that the dates for your arguments have been adjusted, in just the way Dan Brown did in his fiction, the Da Vinci Code.

Second, you'll also find that the Romans were against Christians and Jews, so there was not a hint of their being so benevolent afterwards to help Christians "select" the books that make up the Bible.

Third, the Jewish Torah are simply the Pentateuch and they are part of the Bible. So, it's not a matter of putting them at opposite ends to infer that they "share similar origins".

@MrGold,

Let me help you do some thinking by exploring your weak assumptions:

1. The claim of "over 1000 contradictions" show how naive and polarized you can be. There are as many contradictions in the Qur'an, if not more - it is just that people haven't taken the time to carefully read through and see for themselves. Anyone who doesn't understand the message of the Bible can multiply some imaginary 'thousands of contradictions'; and yet when they are pointed to what they missed, they find some new excuse for rejecting the Bible.

Further, if the Bible is filled with over 1000 contradictions, are you not then attacking the Qur'an itself that says *allah* sent down and confirmed the same Bible you repudiate? In the Qur'an, *allah* made the claim that it is impossible for anyone to change anything of what he has revealed and sent down. And if he claimed to have revealed the Law of Moses, the Psalms of David, and the Gospel of Jesus - has he contradicted himself when he came back later to say that what he revealed has been corrupted?

2. First, the apostles of Jesus met Him, lived and ministered with Him, and were opposed because of Him. Let me remind you of some texts you probably have read:

I John 1:1-2
John declared that they actually saw Jesus with their eyes, and touched or handled Him with their hands.

John 20:27-28
Jesus presented Himself to His disciples and asked one of them, Thomas Didymus to feel His pierced hands. Guess what Thomas called Him - see for yourself.

Acts 1:3-4
After the Resurrection, Jesus was with His disciples for fourty days teaching them about the Kingdom.

Now, your claim that the Bible was written about 400 years after Jesus Depature is a laugh indeed. Serious scholars know that the New Testament were written in the 1st century, and not even Muhammad denies this by adjusting the date to some 400 years after Christ. Your problem is simply that you don't have a clue even of your own religious history - for when you carefully consider the facts, the Qur'an was written by men and was not a book sent down to Muhammad as he claimed. Not only so, but Islamic history bears witness of the fact that the Qur'an of today is a political redaction of the third Caliph, Uthman - and all other copies predating this Caliph were ordered burnt.

3. So, you can see that you had no clue about your misgivings before posting your wrong premise and weak claims. When you've done some thinking yourself, you'll be able to make informed input and not the cheap entries re-arranged by some vexed Imam.

MrGold:

Yes, God says they have eyes but cannot see, have ears but cannot hear.

Again, that's a quote from the same Bible you claim has over 1000 contradiction. Did Muhammad shortchange you and you don't even know it yet??

MrGold:

many people are so blinfolded that with all their exposure and education they are still ignorant of true God instead they worship the CREATURE not CREATOR.

Speaking of creatures, why don't you look more closely in the Qur'an at those creatures who claim to be the creators that Muslims worship and pray to? Just scroll up and see in my previous post. . . or should I remind you again? Here are a few:

Sura 6 vs.94
"And behold! ye come to Us bare and alone as We created you for the first time. . ."

Sura 7 vs.11
"It is We Who created you and gave you shape; . . ."

Q.23 vs.12
"Verily We created man from a product of wet earth. . ."

Q.21 vs.73
"And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve"  (trans. by Pickthal: "and they were worshippers of Us (alone).".

Those are from your Qur'an; but with all your exposure and education, are you still ignorant of the creatures you worship?

Sallam.

Is Jesus God?

Again let God’s Word clarify the matter. When the angel announced Jesus’ birth to Mary, he said: “The Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35, Dy) Jesus never claimed to be God. However, the Jews accused him of making himself God, but he corrected them and said: “I am the Son of God.”—John 10:33-36, Dy.

Just before he died Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46, Dy) After his resurrection he said: “I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.” (John 20:17, Dy) On another occasion he said: “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28, Dy) Obviously God, Jehovah (or, Yahweh), does not need to pray to anyone. But Jesus prayed often to his Father in heaven, at times “with a strong cry and tears . . . And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered.” (Hebrews 5:7, 8, Dy) Almighty God, the Father, could never die. But our hope of salvation rests on the fact that Jesus did die.

For these and many other very cogent reasons, true Christians maintain that Jesus is not God, but, rather, his Son, and therefore that Mary is not the “Mother of God.” Moreover, Jesus once said: “God is spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24, JB) On the other hand, the cult of Mary has diverted the devotion and worship of millions of sincere people from the Creator to a creature. This is tragic in view of the Bible’s condemnation of those “who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator.”—Romans 1:25, Dy.

Lech Walesa, the popular Polish leader, is reported to have said, when under heavy strain: “No, no. I’m not scared. I always have Mother Mary behind me.” But is he looking to the true source of protection? Students of the Bible, when under stress, will follow this inspired counsel: “Do not be anxious over anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God; and the peace of God that excels all thought will guard your hearts and your mental powers by means of Christ Jesus.”—Philippians 4:6, 7.

[Footnotes]

“In popular usage, ‘devotion to Mary’ is synonymous with the ‘cult of Mary.’”—New Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume 9, page 364, paragraph 4.

[Picture on page 23]

Virgen del Pilar

Jesus—Was He God?

In the fourth century C.E. clerics of the Roman Catholic Church formulated the Trinity doctrine, which claims that Jesus was equal to his Father and part of a triune deity. However, many careful Bible students have held that the Scriptures actually do not support this widely taught doctrine.

Volume 2 of The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (1976) considers this matter. It acknowledges that there are “a few N[ew] T[estament] texts [that] raise the question whether the Son of God is also called God.” But what is the overall picture found in the “New Testament,” or Christian Greek Scriptures? This dictionary states:

“Jesus Christ does not usurp the place of God. His oneness with the Father does not mean absolute identity of being. Although the Son of God in his pre-existent being was in the form of God, he resisted the temptation to be equal with God (Phil. 2:6). In his earthly existence he was obedient to God, even unto death on the cross (Phil. 2:. He is the mediator, but not the originator, of salvation (2 Cor. 5:19; Col. 1:20; Heb. 9:15), the lamb of God who bears the sins of the world (Jn. 1:36). After the completion of his work on earth he has indeed been raised to the right hand of God (Eph. 1:20; 1 Pet. 3:22) and invested with the honour of the heavenly Kyrios, Lord (Phil. 2:9 f.). But he is still not made equal to God. Although completely coordinated with God, he remains subordinate to him. (cf. 1 Cor. 15:28). This is true also of his position as eternal high priest in the heavenly sanctuary according to Heb. (Heb. 9:24; 10:12 f.; cf. Ps. 110:1). He represents us before God (cf. also Rom. 8:34). If in Rev. 1:13 ff. the appearance of the heavenly son of man is described with features from the picture of the ‘Ancient of Days’ (God) of Dan. 7, this is not to say that Christ is equal with God. In Rev. a distinction is always made between God and the ‘Lamb’.”

Surely the overall view of the Scriptures points to the fact that Jesus was not God as the Trinity doctrine claims.

The Bible’s View

“He Who Has Seen Me Has Seen the Father”—In What Sense?

ON ONE occasion Philip, a disciple of Jesus, asked: “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.” (John 14: In answer to this question, Jesus declared: “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9) What did Jesus mean by that statement?

Before answering this question, let us consider a peculiar interpretation of Jesus’ words. Some individuals believe that if one who has seen Jesus has seen the Father also, Jesus must be Almighty God, fully equal to his Father, Jehovah.

Individuals who believe that also cite many passages from the “Old Testament” that refer to Jehovah God, but which Christian Bible writers (in the “New Testament”) apply to Jesus Christ. To illustrate: Through the prophet Isaiah, God said: “I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.” (Isa. 43:11) And in prayer to God the psalmist stated: “For with thee is the fountain of life; in thy light do we see light.” (Ps. 36:9) However, Christian Bible writers declare the savior of mankind and the source of life and light to be Jesus Christ.—John 1:4; 5:26; 8:12.

Do parallel passages such as these and the fact that the Son of God said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father,” prove that Jesus is Almighty God? Let us see.

Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to Jesus Christ as the one “sent” from God as his chief representative. (See, for example, John 3:17, 28, 34; 5:23, 24, 30, 37.) Interestingly, the Bible often describes persons who represent others as if they were the ones represented. Consider two examples:

(1) Matthew’s Gospel relates that, after delivering the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus entered into Capernaum, where “a centurion came forward to him, beseeching him” to heal his slave. (Matt. 8:5-13) Yet from the parallel account at Luke 7:1-10 we learn that the centurion “sent to [Jesus] elders of the Jews, asking him to come and heal his slave.”

(2) In the Gospel of Mark we read that “James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came forward to him,” asking: “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.” (Mark 10:35-37) However, Matthew relates that this request to Jesus actually was made by “the mother of the sons of Zebedee,” as their representative.—Matt. 20:20, 21.

Of course, no one would conclude from these Bible accounts that those Jewish elders were coequal with the centurion, or the mother of James and John coequal with her sons. Similarly, no one should conclude that Jesus is coequal with God simply because things stated about Jehovah God in certain parts of the Bible are applied to Jesus Christ in others. The real reason for this is that Jesus represents God.

Is that why the Son of God said: “He who has seen me has seen the Father”? Yes, but more is involved in that expression than mere representation. The request, “Lord, show us the Father,” suggests that Philip wanted Jesus to provide for his disciples a visible manifestation of God, such as was granted in visions to Moses, Elijah and Isaiah in ancient times. (Ex. 24:10; 1 Ki. 19:9-13; Isa. 6:1-5) However, in such visions God’s servants saw, not God himself, but symbolic representations of him. (Ex. 33:17-22; John 1:18) Jesus’ reply indicated that Philip already had something better than visions of that type. Since Jesus perfectly reflected the personality of his Father, whom only the Son fully ‘knew,’ seeing Jesus Christ was like seeing God himself.—Matt. 11:27.

The miracles of the Son of God, for example, manifested the love and tender concern for human welfare that is characteristic of Jehovah God. It is no wonder that, after Jesus resurrected the dead son of a widow from the Galilean city of Nain, observers exclaimed: “God has visited his people!”—Luke 7:11-16.

Further opportunities for people to ‘see the Father’ (that is, to perceive his personality, will and purpose) were afforded by what Jesus said, both as to content and manner of utterance. Persons who listened to Jesus learned that God judges people according to their heart condition, rather than by external circumstances, such as wealth, education, ceremonial cleanness or national origin. (Matt. 5:8; 8:11, 12; 23:25-28; John 8:33-44) How different from the viewpoint fostered by the Jewish religious leaders!—Note John 7:48, 49.

The way Jesus spoke, too, made his hearers realize that they were hearing a message from God, “for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.” (Matt. 7:29) Rather than speaking indirectly, in the name of other human teachers (as was customary among the scribes), Jesus often spoke in the first person, with the phrases: “I tell you,” “Truly, I say to you,” and “Truly, truly, I say to you.” (Note Matthew 5:20, 22; 6:2, 5, 16; John 1:51; 3:3, 5, 11; 5:19, 24, 25.) On occasion Jesus even declared the sins of certain persons forgiven, which led some to accuse him of blasphemously usurping a sole prerogative of God.—Mark 2:1-7; Luke 5:17-21; 7:47-49.

But Jesus never usurped the position of God. He readily admitted that the authority with which he spoke and acted did not originate with him. It was a delegated authority, for “the Father had given all things into his hands.” (John 13:3; compare Matthew 11:27; 28:18; John 3:35; 17:2.) Hence, Jesus declared: “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise.”—John 5:19; compare John 5:30; 8:28, 42.

Since everything that Jesus did was in full harmony with the will of God, persons who observed Jesus were in a sense observing God in action. In his notes on John 14:9, Bible commentator Albert Barnes expresses it nicely: “Hath seen the Father. This cannot refer to the essence or substance of God, for he is invisible, and in that respect no man has seen God at any time. All that is meant when it is said that God is seen, is, that some manifestation of Him has been made; or some such exhibition as that we may learn his character, his will, and his plans. . . . The knowledge of the Son was itself, of course, the knowledge of the Father. There was such an intimate union in their nature and design, that he who understood the one did also the other.”—Compare John 10:30.

[Footnotes]

All Scripture quotations in this article are from the ecumenical edition of the Revised Standard Version, known as the Common Bible. This version is approved by both Catholic and Protestant authorities.

Further instances of representatives being spoken of as the ones they represent are found at Matthew 10:40; 18:5; Luke 9:48; John 4:1, 2.

Is Jesus Christ actually God?

John 17:3, RS: “[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God [“who alone art truly God,” NE], and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (Notice that Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as “the only true God.”)

John 20:17, RS: “Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], ‘Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” (So to the resurrected Jesus, the Father was God, just as the Father was God to Mary Magdalene. Interestingly, not once in Scripture do we find the Father addressing the Son as “my God.”)

See also pages 411, 416, 417, under the heading “Trinity.”

Does John 1:1 prove that Jesus is God?

John 1:1, RS: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [also KJ, JB, Dy, Kx, NAB].” NE reads “what God was, the Word was.” Mo says “the Logos was divine.” AT and Sd tell us “the Word was divine.” The interlinear rendering of ED is “a god was the Word.” NW reads “the Word was a god”; NTIV uses the same wording.

What is it that these translators are seeing in the Greek text that moves some of them to refrain from saying “the Word was God”? The definite article (the) appears before the first occurrence of the·os′ (God) but not before the second. The articular (when the article appears) construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous (without the article) predicate noun before the verb (as the sentence is constructed in Greek) points to a quality about someone. So the text is not saying that the Word (Jesus) was the same as the God with whom he was but, rather, that the Word was godlike, divine, a god. (See 1984 Reference edition of NW, p. 1579.)

What did the apostle John mean when he wrote John 1:1? Did he mean that Jesus is himself God or perhaps that Jesus is one God with the Father? In the same chapter, verse 18, John wrote: “No one [“no man,” KJ, Dy] has ever seen God; the only Son [“the only-begotten god,” NW], who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.” (RS) Had any human seen Jesus Christ, the Son? Of course! So, then, was John saying that Jesus was God? Obviously not. Toward the end of his Gospel, John summarized matters, saying: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, [not God, but] the Son of God.”—John 20:31, RS.

Does Thomas’ exclamation at John 20:28 prove that Jesus is truly God?

John 20:28 (RS) reads: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”

There is no objection to referring to Jesus as “God,” if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Jesus’ own quotation from the Psalms in which powerful men, judges, were addressed as “gods.” (John 10:34, 35, RS; Ps. 82:1-6) Of course, Christ occupies a position far higher than such men. Because of the uniqueness of his position in relation to Jehovah, at John 1:18 (NW) Jesus is referred to as “the only-begotten god.” (See also Ro, By.) Isaiah 9:6 (RS) also prophetically describes Jesus as “Mighty God,” but not as the Almighty God. All of this is in harmony with Jesus’ being described as “a god,” or “divine,” at John 1:1 (NW, AT).

The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from this. Shortly before Jesus’ death, Thomas had heard Jesus’ prayer in which he addressed his Father as “the only true God.” (John 17:3, RS) After Jesus’ resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: “I am ascending . . . to my God and your God.” (John 20:17, RS) After recording what Thomas said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, RS) So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas’ exclamation that Jesus is himself “the only true God” or that Jesus is a Trinitarian “God the Son,” he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31).

Does Matthew 1:23 indicate that Jesus when on earth was God?

Matt. 1:23, RS: “‘Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emman′u-el’ (which means, God with us [“God is with us,” NE]).”

In announcing Jesus’ coming birth, did Jehovah’s angel say that the child would be God himself? No, the announcement was: “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High.” (Luke 1:32, 35, RS; italics added.) And Jesus himself never claimed to be God but, rather, “the Son of God.” (John 10:36, RS; italics added.) Jesus was sent into the world by God; so by means of this only-begotten Son, God was with mankind.—John 3:17; 17:8.

It was not unusual for Hebrew names to include within them the word for God or even an abbreviated form of God’s personal name. For example, Eli′athah means “God Has Come”; Jehu means “Jehovah Is He”; Elijah means “My God Is Jehovah.” But none of these names implied that the possessor was himself God.

What is the meaning of John 5:18?

John 5:18, RS: “This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.”

It was the unbelieving Jews who reasoned that Jesus was attempting to make himself equal with God by claiming God as his Father. While properly referring to God as his Father, Jesus never claimed equality with God. He straightforwardly answered the Jews: “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.” (John 5:19, RS; see also John 14:28; John 10:36.) It was those unbelieving Jews, too, who claimed that Jesus broke the Sabbath, but they were wrong also about that. Jesus kept the Law perfectly, and he declared: “It is lawful to do good on the sabbath.”—Matt. 12:10-12, RS.

Does the fact that worship is given to Jesus prove that he is God?

At Hebrews 1:6, the angels are instructed to “worship” Jesus, according to the rendering of RS, TEV, KJ, JB, and NAB. NW says “do obeisance to.” At Matthew 14:33, Jesus’ disciples are said to have “worshiped” him, according to RS, TEV, KJ; other translations say that they “showed him reverence” (NAB), “bowed down before him” (JB), “fell at his feet” (NE), “did obeisance to him” (NW).

The Greek word rendered “worship” is pro·sky·ne′o, which A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature says was also “used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground.” (Chicago, 1979, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker; second English edition; p. 716) This is the term used at Matthew 14:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus; at Hebrews 1:6 to indicate what the angels are to do toward Jesus; at Genesis 22:5 in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did toward Jehovah and at Genesis 23:7 to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward people with whom he was doing business; at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching King David.

At Matthew 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from pro·sky·ne′o] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.” (At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.) In harmony with that, we must understand that it is pro·sky·ne′o with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God.

Do the miracles performed by Jesus prove that he is God?

Acts 10:34, 38, RS: “Peter opened his mouth and said: ‘ . . . God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; . . . he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.’” (So Peter did not conclude from the miracles that he observed that Jesus was God but, rather, that God was with Jesus. Compare Matthew 16:16, 17.)

John 20:30, 31, RS: “Now Jesus did many other signs [“miracles,” TEV, Kx] in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (So the conclusion we should properly draw from the miracles is that Jesus is “the Christ,” the Messiah, “the Son of God.” The expression “Son of God” is very different from “God the Son.”)

Pre-Christian prophets such as Elijah and Elisha performed miracles similar to those of Jesus. Yet that certainly is no proof that they were God.

Is Jesus the same as Jehovah in the “Old Testament”?

opia,
it's a good thing u are trying to enlighten people who see one thing and interpret it as they like. but i'm afraid it's a wasted effort because rather than see the light, they would only scrutinize ur post for holes that they can use to argue with u. the Bible screams with evidence that we are talking about two different people, a Father and His Son. and i don't know how people mix it all up with conclusions that don't hold water.

what i want to ask is, if from all the posts i am to accept that Jesus and God are equal, where does that leave the Holy Spirit? all those times Jesus said "i and my Father are one", why didnt he include the Holy Spirit in the equation?i.e I, my Father, and the Holy Spirit are one?

omot208:

what i want to ask is, if from all the posts i am to accept that Jesus and God are equal, where does that leave the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit has always been there, but you didn't take the time to read the relevant Bible texts.

omot208:

all those times Jesus said "i and my Father are one", why didnt he include the Holy Spirit in the equation?i.e I, my Father, and the Holy Spirit are one?

I submit that in the first place, you would be trying to put words in Jesus' mouth. But to guarantee you, if I may acquiesce to your pun of "the equation", may I ask if you forgot what He said in matt. 28:19 - "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"?? Could He have recommended that "equation" if the Holy Ghost was not in the divine Trinity?

To rest your heart, I don't count as one to pick holes; but if I'm persuaded that someone has made uninformed inputs, there's nothing stopping anyone from underlining those presuppositions and airing their views or counter claims, abi?