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The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) - Religion - Nairaland

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The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Wilgrea7(m): 8:14am On Oct 29, 2016
Yes.. i called it a false doctrine.. the doctrine of eternal torment is a stupid one and i don't regret saying that. its a worthless doctrine that people used to paint God as a sadist.. people have justified hell by saying we choose to go there or other stuffs like that... I've been viewing too many threads here that people use the eternal torment as a means to portay a sadistic God. I'm going to settle it once and for all..

eternal torment preachers are welcomed to bring their ponts..

atheists which also use eternal torment as an insult to God are welcome to learn.

bigots please keep off

let the games begin

seun, lalasticlala, hardmirror, otemanuduno , shadeyinka, etc

theists and atheists alike are welcome
Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Wilgrea7(m): 8:17am On Oct 29, 2016
firstly I'll be talking about judgement immediately after death... where do we really go immediately after death? if i post a link here no one will visit it.. so I'd rather post the article itself


What awaits us after death? Many Christian denominations teach a “heaven or hell ” afterlife. What does the Bible really teach about this subject?
Nestled in a passage that discusses the role Jesus Christ played in willingly offering Himself as a sacrifice for our sins, this statement is made: “And as it is appointed for men to die once …” (Hebrews 9:27). Since death awaits us all, what happens after death is certainly worth considering!
Find out what the Bible says really happens after death. Download the free booklet.
Death is like sleep
In several locations the Bible likens death to sleep. Notice the apostle Paul’s comforting instruction to the believers in Thessalonica : “But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep [those who had died], lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus” (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14).
Before continuing with this passage, we need to address two matters: How is death similar to sleep? And second, if God is bringing these people “with Him,” from where is He bringing them?
Death is similar to sleep in that no conscious thought occurs when one has died. Two statements in the book of Ecclesiastes tell us of this reality:
“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
“Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (verse 10).
Psalm 146:4 adds: “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish” (King James Version). Once death occurs, human consciousness ends. Nothing’s going on in the mind.
After his children had died suddenly, his possessions were taken away, and he was afflicted with “painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head” (Job 1:7), Job accurately summed up the nature of death while longing for it: “Why did I not die at birth? Why did I not perish when I came from the womb? … For now I would have lain still and been quiet, I would have been asleep” (Job 3:11-13).
Returning with Jesus?
We have established that death is like a sleep in that a person is not actively engaged in any activity—no conscious thoughts, no labor, no
anything . Now, let’s return to our second question regarding 1 Thessalonians 4:14: From where does God bring these people who “sleep in Jesus” (i.e., people who are dead)? Some would say He brings them from heaven. Is this what the Bible teaches?
Jesus Christ said in John 3:13: “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.” That seems clear! Why is it so hard for so many to believe?
People who have died are not awake in heaven! They are “sleeping” or resting in their graves. The remaining verses of 1 Thessalonians 4 confirm this. Notice:
“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep [are dead]. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).
When Jesus Christ returns , the dead will “rise.” For one to “rise,” one would have to come up from somewhere. If one had died and gone to heaven already, then the individual wouldn’t be rising from the grave when Christ returns. He or she would be descending from heaven, yet this is not what Paul taught the Thessalonians.
This teaching of our being raised from the grave at Jesus Christ’s return is reiterated in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52: “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
Jesus Christ Himself also taught the principle of being raised up in John 6:39-40: “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
It is appointed for all of us to die, but when Jesus Christ returns to the earth at the last day, the followers of Jesus Christ who have died will be raised from their graves and given eternal life.
While it may be comforting to those struggling to cope with the death of loved ones to think of them as looking down from heaven, this belief is unbiblical and false. Instead, God’s Word comforts us with the fact that there is no suffering in the grave. And since there is no thought for those in the grave (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10), there can be no awareness on their part of the passage of time. When they are resurrected, it will be as though they have awakened from sleep.
We can take great comfort in knowing that when they awaken, they will rise in a much different world, a world that Jesus Christ and the resurrected saints will be ruling (read more about this by searching our section on the Kingdom of God ).
Why isn’t this taught?
Why do many churches not understand this basic teaching? In part, they try to explain away these clear verses by bringing up other passages that seem to contradict scriptural teaching on the subject.
One is the story of Lazarus and the rich man—a story often misinterpreted. To read more on this subject, see our article on “Lazarus and the Rich Man .”
Secondly, they refer to Jesus Christ’s statements to the “thief on the cross” who was crucified alongside Him: “And Jesus said to him, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise’” (Luke 23:43). From this statement, people say, “See, Christ tells the man that he will be with Christ in Paradise that day!”
There are two reasons why we should not draw this conclusion when reading this passage:
1. Jesus Christ very clearly stated He would be in the grave three days and three nights upon His death (Matthew 12:39-40). The grave is not paradise.
2. In the original manuscripts of the
New Testament, punctuation was not used. Punctuation has been added by translators to try to provide clarity. The passage could also be translated, “Assuredly, I say to you today [comma], you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
To put it in the vernacular, Christ could have been saying, “I’m telling you today that one day you’re going to be with Me in Paradise.” Translated this way, with the comma after the word “today” instead of before it, the passage fits with the other teachings of the resurrection found in Scripture.

4 Likes

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by otemanuduno: 8:21am On Oct 29, 2016
Wilgrea7:
Yes.. i called it a false doctrine.. the doctrine of eternal torment is a stupid one and i don't regret saying that. its a worthless doctrine that people used to paint God as a sadist.. people have justified hell by saying we choose to go there or other stuffs like that... I've been viewing too many threads here that people use the eternal torment as a means to portay a sadistic God. I'm going to settle it once and for all..

eternal torment preachers are welcomed to bring their ponts..

atheists which also use eternal torment as an insult to God are welcome to learn.

bigots please keep off

let the games begin

seun, lalasticlala, hardmirror, otemanuduno , shadeyinka, etc

theists and atheists alike are welcome
You are only advocating for a modification of the Bible, that's all. But we can't buy into that. Knoliud has said that Yahweh will continue to modify his words to fit the time. You don't know that you are being used to try propagate a kind of modification for the bible. Anyway, the whole Bible is false and no matter how you guys try to reinterprete its content, it can never work.

Jasheb 10: 16-28

:
16. And at the thirty-sixth generation shall Nymphidis think to modify his first words. Then shall he send Faulkin into the world to make the modifications through peace and swords. For it shall begin with peace and end with swords. And these are they that shall by all means try to suppress knowledge by killing the children of Eartum who shall be blessed with the true knowledge of the universe.

17. And the words of Faulkin shall prevail for five hundred and seventy-one year, which to some is five hundred and seventy-five years. Then shall another word come.

18. This shall be the words of Murhamid, a reincarnate of Faulkin and a prophet of Nymphidis that shall conquer the earth with the use of swords during his own time.

19. And this shall not be ashamed like the first Faulkin who had sex secretly. But this shall do it in the open.

20. Then shall he use his violence to establish his words, according to the sayings of the divine knowledge of Knoliud.

19. And both the words of Faulkin and the words of Murhamid shall shape the world into a planet of perfect fear and trembling till a time when a prophet shall arise from the continent of Murmoh.

20. This prophet shall be unknown in the earth, for those who knew him in person shall not know him as the prophet. But those who knew him through the satellites shall be amazed.

21. And he shall begin the establishment of the doctrine of the real truth from the first day of the first month of the two thousand and sixteenth year of the death of Faulkin which others thought to be the two thousand and tenth year after the death of Faulkin.

26. And his doctrine shall not take root firmly until the two thousand, six hundred and twenty-fifth year after the death of Faulkin, which is to others the two thousand, six hundred and nineteenth year.

27. This is the beginning of the abomination of desolation that shall replace the daily sacrifice which Nymphidis has commanded his followers to do to him, both in this world and in the world to come.

28. Now this truth shall be revealed in this world and in the world to come by an homo called Otem by those who knew him through the satellites.

1 Like

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Wilgrea7(m): 8:28am On Oct 29, 2016
otemanuduno:
You are only advocating for a modification of the Bible, that's all. But we can't buy into that. Knoliud has said that Yahweh will continue to modify his words to fit the time. You don't know that you are being used to try propagate a kind of modification for the bible. Anyway, the whole Bible is false and no matter how you guys try to reinterprete its content, it can never work.

i didn't modify any word... if u claim Yahweh is trying to modify the bible then why are there still many of his followers who believe in this doctrine? the false doctrine was introduced by the roman Catholic church. their biggest mistake was letting us have our own bible

1 Like

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by zico530(m): 8:35am On Oct 29, 2016
You call it false? You will soon realize it to be true, then it will be to late. Repent now and avoid regretting eternally.

1 Like

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by hopefulLandlord: 8:43am On Oct 29, 2016
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Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Wilgrea7(m): 8:53am On Oct 29, 2016
zico530:
You call it false? You will soon realize it to be true, then it will be to late. Repent now and avoid regretting eternally.


yeah i called it false... rather than making an empty threat with your false doctrine why don't u try to disprove me.. if u can't then accept your defeat and sail away

4 Likes

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Scholar8200(m): 9:01am On Oct 29, 2016
Wilgrea7:



yeah i called it false... rather than making an empty threat with your false doctrine why don't u try to disprove me.. if u can't then accept your defeat and sail away
sir, explain this succinctly and also state how the once highlighted will be judged:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

3 Likes

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by ministeriallist: 9:16am On Oct 29, 2016
"Hell fire" doctrine is the the greatest scam in history used in coercing gullible people.

If "hell fire" were real, then the god who does that must be the worst sadist-worse than the devil.
Romans 6:7 says he that has died has been pardoned (acquitted) of his sin.

The wages of sin is death and not some imaginary "fire".

Hellfire is a senseless ideology to coerce people.

8 Likes

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Wilgrea7(m): 9:18am On Oct 29, 2016
Scholar8200:
sir, explain this succinctly and also state how the once highlighted will be judged:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

thank you..

if you also read down you will see the part where the righteous are received unto everlasting LIFE

everlasting fire, as well as eternal fire means fire which its effects are everlasting.. the outcome is everlasting. the destruction is everlasting

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire.

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

as u can see above.. the eternal fire turned Sodom and Gomorrah to ash... they aren't running around burning today

everlasting fire isn't the fire that burns you forever without end... its the fire which its destruction lasts forever.

3 Likes

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Scholar8200(m): 9:26am On Oct 29, 2016
Wilgrea7:


thank you..

if you also read down you will see the part where the righteous are received unto everlasting LIFE

everlasting fire, as well as eternal fire means fire which its effects are everlasting.. the outcome is everlasting. the destruction is everlasting

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire.

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

as u can see above.. the eternal fire turned Sodom and Gomorrah to ash... they aren't running around burning today

everlasting fire isn't the fire that burns you forever without end... its the fire which its destruction lasts forever.

Now ,sir, compare your explanation with what Jesus said here:

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched
Mark 9:47,48

Do you notice any correlation or contradiction?

4 Likes

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Nobody: 10:05am On Oct 29, 2016
OP while your explanation is plausible and makes a lot of sense. I would suggest you leave it as a mystery rather than outrightly calling it false. The JWs who don't believe in Jesus Christ also use the same adjusted comma to give it the meaning consistent with your teaching thus: 'Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise'
Many people have died and come back to life, they are quite many that it would be really obstinate to discredit all of their experiences. Plus, I'm sure there are scriptural references, which I don't know about, for those of us that believe it is immediate like the early Christians did.
About eternal torment, it is a perspective thing on how one views God in light of their scriptural interpretation. The Bible describes our Lord Jesus Christ as a consuming fire and those who reject Him would experience Him as exactly that. I have come learn that threatening unbelievers with hell is not only ignorant but very arrogant and this is also the foundation of atheism in the church. There is no love in that and it is contradictory to our God that is Love. God is Good, Just, and Not partial and in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him (Acts 10:35) God loves workers of righteousness no matter what they currently believe and He finds them.
I only pity those that curse God because they have become atheists not even the indifferent atheists that disbelieved because of perhaps plausible reasons.
Wilgrea7:

yeah i called it false... rather than making an empty threat with your false doctrine why don't u try to disprove me.. if u can't then accept your defeat and sail away

1 Like

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by shadeyinka(m): 10:18am On Oct 29, 2016
Wilgrea7:
Yes.. i called it a false doctrine.. the doctrine of eternal torment is a stupid one and i don't regret saying that. its a worthless doctrine that people used to paint God as a sadist.. people have justified hell by saying we choose to go there or other stuffs like that... I've been viewing too many threads here that people use the eternal torment as a means to portay a sadistic God. I'm going to settle it once and for all..

eternal torment preachers are welcomed to bring their ponts..

atheists which also use eternal torment as an insult to God are welcome to learn.

bigots please keep off

let the games begin

seun, lalasticlala, hardmirror, otemanuduno , shadeyinka, etc

theists and atheists alike are welcome

I believe that the response to the so called parables of Jesus and the meaning of His statements about hell is presented below
Scholar8200:

Now ,sir, compare your explanation with what Jesus said here:

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched
Mark 9:47,48

Do you notice any correlation or contradiction?

Please, let's focus on the message and instructions of Christ. The truth could be unacceptably bitter, but feelings do not change the truth

1 Like

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Wilgrea7(m): 10:18am On Oct 29, 2016
Scholar8200:

Now ,sir, compare your explanation with what Jesus said here:

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched
Mark 9:47,48

Do you notice any correlation or contradiction?


thank you again

firstly notice that the righteous enter into LIFE

secondly Jesus used Gehenna (translated as hell) when making that statement.

Gehenna was the local
trash dump & incinerator located right outside the city walls of Jerusalem to the south . Trash , garbage and the carcasses of animals, despised criminals & vanquished enemies were thrown into Gehenna for the express purpose of disposal and eradication. if you doubt what I'm saying about the translation of Gehenna as hell you can check the different translations of hell in our English bible

also... Isaiah talked about the same thing... let's see what he said

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the CARCASES of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

carcase meaning something dead.. dead animal/thing.. without life.. NOT CONSCIOUS... it means they will die. they will burn and the worms will eat them up till they are no more

Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

this verse seems to agree with them

now I'll throw your question back at you...

do you notice any correlation or contradiction ? smiley

2 Likes 3 Shares

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Wilgrea7(m): 10:28am On Oct 29, 2016
TheSixthSense:
OP while your explanation is plausible and makes a lot of sense. I would suggest you leave it as a mystery rather than outrightly calling it false. The JWs who don't believe in Jesus Christ also use the same adjusted comma to give it the meaning consistent with your teaching thus: 'Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise'
Many people have died and come back to life, they are quite many that it would be really obstinate to discredit all of their experiences. Plus, I'm sure there are scriptural references, which I don't know about, for those of us that believe it is immediate like the early Christians did.
About eternal torment, it is a perspective thing on how one views God in light of their scriptural interpretation. The Bible describes our Lord Jesus Christ as a consuming fire and those who reject Him would experience Him as exactly that. I have come learn that threatening unbelievers with hell is not only ignorant but very arrogant and this is also the foundation of atheism in the church. There is no love in that and it is contradictory to our God that is Love. God is Good, Just, and Not partial and in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him (Acts 10:35) God loves workers of righteousness no matter what they currently believe and He finds them.
I only pity those that curse God because they have become atheists not even the indifferent atheists that disbelieved because of perhaps plausible reasons.

i see your point.. thanks.. Indeed God is not partial.. i am not a jw.. i was a pentecostal... until i started asking questions then i broke away from denominational and religious chains.. I'm not saying God won't burn someone eternally because he is love.. I'm saying he won't burn someone eternally because he is JUST. many people tend to argue.. i want them to bring their points.. I'll clear their doubts.. I'm sorry if i offended anyone by calling the doctrine false.. i never meant to offend anyone.. thanks again
Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Scholar8200(m): 10:36am On Oct 29, 2016
Wilgrea7:



thank you again

firstly notice that the righteous enter into LIFE

secondly Jesus used Gehenna (translated as hell) when making that statement.

Gehenna was the local
trash dump & incinerator located right outside the city walls of Jerusalem to the south . Trash , garbage and the carcasses of animals, despised criminals & vanquished enemies were thrown into Gehenna for the express purpose of disposal and eradication. if you doubt what I'm saying about the translation of Gehenna as hell you can check the different translations of hell in our English bible

also... Isaiah talked about the same thing... let's see what he said
Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the CARCASES of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

carcase meaning something dead.. dead animal/thing.. without life.. NOT CONSCIOUS... it means they will die. they will burn and the worms will eat them up till they are no more

Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

this verse seems to agree with them

now I'll throw your question back at you...

do you notice any correlation or contradiction ? smiley

Remember that it speaks of torment? Can a lifeless being be tormented?

This verse mention carcasses just as Revelations 20:12 talks of the dead standing before God and were judged. Besides, if the fires would eradicate why would it leave the carcasses?

Sir, perhaps if it had said their ashes (like we would find in man's Gehenna) would be an abhorrence I should rest my case.

4 Likes

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by raphieMontella: 10:37am On Oct 29, 2016
Wilgrea7:


i didn't modify any word... if u claim Yahweh is trying to modify the bible then why are there still many of his followers who believe in this doctrine? the false doctrine was introduced by the roman Catholic church. their biggest mistake was letting us have our own bible
they didnt want you to...
They knew it would be disastrous...
As you can see...as you were allowed to have the bible-----over 33,000 christian denominations...
Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by otemanuduno: 11:20am On Oct 29, 2016
Wilgrea7:


i didn't modify any word... if u claim Yahweh is trying to modify the bible then why are there still many of his followers who believe in this doctrine? the false doctrine was introduced by the roman Catholic church. their biggest mistake was letting us have our own bible
Without The Roman Catholic, there can never be Christianity. Judaism is all you would have by now, and the gospel wouldn't have reached someone like you.

4 Likes

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Nobody: 11:40am On Oct 29, 2016
I understand you too, it is one of the reasons that I started searching and have left pentecostalism but I am still part of a Church. At least you know that it is Jesus Christ that is the absolutely inerrant Word of God not necessarily a translated Bible. All Scripture is inspired by God... but they were all written by men and 'all' here also means different things to different christians because there are different Bibles and translations and interpretations.
You are absolutely right, God won't burn someone eternally because He is just. If He did then He would be very wicked and how can that be a loving God? Many christians have no sleepless nights with this kind of perception of God. For me, I just couldn't. I wasn't even that heartless before Jesus found me. Then you look at the world and the billions of people and convince yourself that 90-99% of the people in the world, depending on your tiny pentecostal church doctrine, are going to hell to burn forever. This, I believe, is what gives people frightening apocalyptic visions to start warning people about Hell and rapture (another invention) living in fear so they develop a pseudomission for themselves to save the world by being extremely judgemental towards others but interpreted in their minds as love and in the end annoying many with Jesus Christ and God. Calvinism can also make one believe that a righteous person who fears the almighty God and works righteousness according to what they know with a clear conscience would be condemned forever. I don't think so. The story of Cornelius comes to mind where his alms and prayers went up for a memorial before God only shows that God loves those that fear him and works righteousness. Everyone will be judged according to works and what they have knowledge of as in (Romans 2:11-16)
For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all
And God doesn't burn anybody people choose to be condemned by working iniquity and rejecting Jesus Christ their hope of salvation.
Wilgrea7:

I see your point.. thanks.. Indeed God is not partial.. i am not a jw.. I was a pentecostal... until i started asking questions then i broke away from denominational and religious chains.. I'm not saying God won't burn someone eternally because he is love.. I'm saying he won't burn someone eternally because he is JUST. many people tend to argue.. i want them to bring their points.. I'll clear their doubts.. I'm sorry if i offended anyone by calling the doctrine false.. i never meant to offend anyone.. thanks again
Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Scholar8200(m): 11:42am On Oct 29, 2016
otemanuduno:
Without The Roman Catholic, there can never be Christianity. Judaism is all you would have by now, and the gospel wouldn't have reached someone like you.
This isnt true.
Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Wilgrea7(m): 12:10pm On Oct 29, 2016
Scholar8200:

Remember that it speaks of torment? Can a lifeless being be tormented?

This verse mention carcasses just as Revelations 20:12 talks of the dead standing before God and were judged. Besides, if the fires would eradicate why would it leave the carcasses?

Sir, perhaps if it had said their ashes (like we would find in man's Gehenna) would be an abhorrence I should rest my case.


saying that carcasses refers to the dead raised up on judgement day has an error to it

because if carcasses means the dead raised up on judgement day that means the dead raised up that day will be thrown into the lake of fire... irrespective of their stand... also.. if u say that its the dead sinners that will be thrown you're not only contradicting Isaiah, but also implying the sinners which are alive will not be thrown there... if u read the Isaiah chapter u will see that before they became CARCASSES they were SLAIN by the lord

Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

so they will be slain.. that's what makes them carcasses...

also revelation refers to the dead as those who are SLEEPING not CARCASSES.

“all those who SLEEP in the earth". ..

so sir as you can see, implying that carcasses means the dead raised up is going against the scripture

Gehenna was what Jesus used to symbolise the destruction of the last day... also explained by Isaiah

thanks
Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by raphieMontella: 12:11pm On Oct 29, 2016
Scholar8200:
This isnt true.
it is true to a very remarkable extent... Because without the catholics..you mave been a muslim today.

1 Like

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Nobody: 12:19pm On Oct 29, 2016
The Roman Catholic church isn't the first church but you are very correct Islam would have killed us all grin or most would be muslims. if not for the roman catholics
raphieMontella:

it is true to a very remarkable extent...
Because without the catholics..you mave been a muslim today.
Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Wilgrea7(m): 12:22pm On Oct 29, 2016
otemanuduno:
Without The Roman Catholic, there can never be Christianity. Judaism is all you would have by now, and the gospel wouldn't have reached someone like you.

Christianity was preached by the apostles...
Constantine stopped persecution of Christians and merged the pure Christianity with pagan doctrines to gain population. even then, the bible wasn't distributed... only the pope had it... it was martin Luther who broke out from the roman Catholics. he pushed for individual bibles.. the Roman Catholic has always been hiding secrets.. thats why they burnt the first man who translated the bible to English
Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Wilgrea7(m): 12:24pm On Oct 29, 2016
raphieMontella:

they didnt want you to...
They knew it would be disastrous...
As you can see...as you were allowed to have the bible-----over 33,000 christian denominations...


those are people who confine themselves... Christ knows no denomination and neither do i.. i don't associate myself with a particular denomination.. denomination is of no use... people fail to study the bible for themselves.. rather they listen to denominations.. it shouldn't be so
Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Scholar8200(m): 12:29pm On Oct 29, 2016
Wilgrea7:


saying that carcasses refers to the dead raised up on judgement day has an error to it


because if carcasses means the dead raised up on judgement day that means the dead raised up that day will be thrown into the lake of fire... irrespective of their stand... also.. if u say that its the dead sinners that will be thrown you're not only contradicting Isaiah, but also implying the sinners which are alive will not be thrown there... if u read the Isaiah chapter u will see that before they became CARCASSES they were SLAIN by the lord

And how come the fire will fail to eradicate the carcasses? And how would a[u] lifeless carcass be tormented in the fire[/u]?





Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

so they will be slain.. that's what makes them carcasses...
This is a prophecy about the battle of Armageddon seen in Revelations 19. Note in particular what was said about these:

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelations 19:21

Since their flesh was to be consumed by the fowls whence these carcasses that will be burning?


also revelation refers to the dead as those who are SLEEPING not CARCASSES.

“all those who SLEEP in the earth". ..
Who are the dead that will stand before God in Revelations 20:12,13



so sir as you can see, implying that carcasses means the dead raised up is going against the scripture

Gehenna was what Jesus used to symbolise the destruction of the last day... also explained by Isaiah

thanks
I wonder where I said carcass is the dead raised up! Can you kindly highlight it? What I said was that the terms carcass and the dead was used to refer to the same set of people.

Moreover,sir,as per the focus of this thread,

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up [size=18pt]for ever and ever[/size]: and they have no rest day nor night
, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelations 14:9-11

This agrees with the Words of Jesus in Mark and the prophecy of Isaiah but contradicts your claims. Else how would we say a carcass was tormented and had no rest?

2 Likes

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Wilgrea7(m): 12:40pm On Oct 29, 2016
TheSixthSense:
I understand you too, it is one of the reasons that I started searching and have left pentecostalism but I am still part of a Church. At least you know that it is Jesus Christ that is the absolutely inerrant Word of God not necessarily a translated Bible. All Scripture is inspired by God... but they were all written by men and 'all' here also means different things to different christians because there are different Bibles and translations and interpretations.
You are absolutely right, God won't burn someone eternally because He is just. If He did then He would be very wicked and how can that be a loving God? Many christians have no sleepless nights with this kind of perception of God. For me, I just couldn't. I wasn't even that heartless before Jesus found me. Then you look at the world and the billions of people and convince yourself that 90-99% of the people in the world, depending on your tiny pentecostal church doctrine, are going to hell to burn forever. This, I believe, is what gives people frightening apocalyptic visions to start warning people about Hell and rapture (another invention) living in fear so they develop a pseudomission for themselves to save the world by being extremely judgemental towards others but interpreted in their minds as love and in the end annoying many with Jesus Christ and God. Calvinism can also make one believe that a righteous person who fears the almighty God and works righteousness according to what they know with a clear conscience would be condemned forever. I don't think so. The story of Cornelius comes to mind where his alms and prayers went up for a memorial before God only shows that God loves those that fear him and works righteousness. Everyone will be judged according to works and what they have knowledge of as in (Romans 2:11-16)
For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all
And God doesn't burn anybody people choose to be condemned by working iniquity and rejecting Jesus Christ their hope of salvation.

yes sir.. i agree with you. God indeed is not partial.. he is just. King james was the first translation and other english translations are from king James. the first translation however was burnt and the translator was lynched.. pretty unfair . maybe they were trying to hide something.. only God knows

thanks again.. God bless
Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Scholar8200(m): 12:47pm On Oct 29, 2016
TheSixthSense:
I understand you too, it is one of the reasons that I started searching and have left pentecostalism but I am still part of a Church. At least you know that it is Jesus Christ that is the absolutely inerrant Word of God not necessarily a translated Bible. All Scripture is inspired by God... but they were all written by men and 'all' here also means different things to different christians because there are different Bibles and translations and interpretations.
You are absolutely right, God won't burn someone eternally because He is just. If He did then He would be very wicked and how can that be a loving God? Many christians have no sleepless nights with this kind of perception of God. For me, I just couldn't. I wasn't even that heartless before Jesus found me. Then you look at the world and the billions of people and convince yourself that 90-99% of the people in the world, depending on your tiny pentecostal church doctrine, are going to hell to burn forever. This, I believe, is what gives people frightening apocalyptic visions to start warning people about Hell and rapture (another invention) living in fear so they develop a pseudomission for themselves to save the world by being extremely judgemental towards others but interpreted in their minds as love and in the end annoying many with Jesus Christ and God. Calvinism can also make one believe that a righteous person who fears the almighty God and works righteousness according to what they know with a clear conscience would be condemned forever. I don't think so. The story of Cornelius comes to mind where his alms and prayers went up for a memorial before God only shows that God loves those that fear him and works righteousness. Everyone will be judged according to works and what they have knowledge of as in (Romans 2:11-16)
Sir, remember that God so loved the world (not only folks like Cornelius because of good deeds). Besides, the angel only said his good works came up as a memorial(just like the evil of other men too);being a devout man and one that served God to the limit of the light there was. Besides, he was asked to seek for Peter so that:

He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do Acts 10:6 because without that, he was not saved.

Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
ACts 11:14

2 Likes

Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by raphieMontella: 12:51pm On Oct 29, 2016
TheSixthSense:
The Roman Catholic church isn't the first church
i dont even think there was a first church..as early as c.50 AD,there was already more than one church(form of christianity)..
But as early as 110 AD,the catholic church existed..thats what i know..The first three popes(according to catholic tradition) are even mentioned in the bible

but you are very correct Islam would have killed us all grin or most would be muslims. if not for the roman catholics
the lord works in mysterious ways hey?

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Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Splinz(m): 1:01pm On Oct 29, 2016
otemanuduno:
Without The Roman Catholic, there can never be Christianity. Judaism is all you would have by now, and the gospel wouldn't have reached someone like you.

Says one who doesn't know the true history of the Church.
Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by Wilgrea7(m): 1:05pm On Oct 29, 2016
Scholar8200:

And how come the fire will fail to eradicate the carcasses? And how would a[u] lifeless carcass be tormented in the fire[/u]?




This is a prophecy about the battle of Armageddon seen in Revelations 19. Note in particular what was said about these:

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelations 19:21

Since their flesh was to be consumed by the fowls whence these carcasses that will be burning?

Who are the dead that will stand before God in Revelations 20:12,13


I wonder where I said carcass is the dead raised up! Can you kindly highlight it? What I said was that the terms carcass and the dead was used to refer to the same set of people.

Moreover,sir,as per the focus of this thread,

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up [size=18pt]for ever and ever[/size]: and they have no rest day nor night
, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelations 14:9-11

This agrees with the Words of Jesus in Mark and the prophecy of Isaiah but contradicts your claims. Else how would we say a carcass was tormented and had no rest?


ok.. now we're moving on to the book of revelation... this is where it gets interesting... but first let me address what you said above..

the rev 19:21 u quoted talks about them being eaten by fowls... Isaiah talks about them being eradicated through burning and being eaten by WORMS NOT FOWL. so they are saying two different things..

also... u said carcass and dead are used to refer to the same set of people... that means its only the carcass that will be thrown into the lake of fire and sinners alive won't be thrown there.

u asked how will a lifeless carcass be tormented?? show me where Jesus said they will be tormented or when Isaiah said they will be tormented.. the only verse that speaks of tormenting for ever and ever is revelation.. so lets talk about it..

In the case of Revelation 14:9-11, this passage is solely referring to those who have chosen to worship the beast and receive his mark during the 7-year tribulation period. This is apparently a heinous sin to God and therefore these people will be punished very severely.

The second reason we can’t take Revelation 14:9-11 as a reference to never-ending conscious torment is because this passage has a “sister text” which uses the very same terminology where the meaning can’t possibly be mistaken. This sister text is from the Old Testament and is therefore the foundation upon which Revelation 14:9-11 rests. Let’s go ahead and observe this passage:

Isaiah 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Observe how Isaiah 34:9-10 and Revelation 14:10-11 use the same terminology:

her dust [will be turned] into burning sulfur
He will be tormented with burning sulfur

its smoke will rise forever
 the smoke of their torment rises forever

It will not be quenched night and day
There is no rest day or night

Reading this passage we get the strong impression that the kingdom of Edom will burn forever and ever without end but the entire rest of the chapter renders this interpretation impossible. The rest of the chapter shows that Edom will become a desolate desert inhabited by owls, jackals and hyenas. Verses 5 & 6 state that the people of Edom will be “totally destroyed” and slaughtered, and Obadiah 10 & 18 back this up, stating that Edom will “be destroyed forever” — consumed by the fire of God’s judgment and wrath


Isaiah 34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. 34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but NONE SHALL BE THERE, and all her princes shall be nothing. 34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.

as you can see above edom was turned into a wasteland..... none shall be there... also like revelation

the word forever and ever has been used 56 times in the bible in connection with things that have already ended

NOTE: The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. * It is like the word "tall," which means something different in describing men, trees, or mountains. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights."
" I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." Jonah 2:6. (See also Jonah 1:17.)
In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22,28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out


as you can see above... their torment lasts according to their crimes... then they will be destroyed
Re: The False Doctrine Of Eternal Torment And Judgement After Death(sleep) by lahwizah(m): 1:06pm On Oct 29, 2016
can fire burn that which has become spirit,,,what Bout those without knowledge of God, christianity ?

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