lahwizah:
can fire burn that which has become spirit,,,what Bout those without knowledge of God, christianity ?

everyone will be resurrected.. and also... Jesus will render to every man according to his works. those who lived by the law will be judged by the law.. the judgement is just..

The first was as early as 42-47AD in Alexandria before the church in Rome was founded but they were all one holy Catholic apostolic church before a schism in 1054 AD resulted in the church in Rome as the roman catholic church. The church in Rome is Roman Catholic. Catholic means universal so it is inappropriate to use that for the church in Rome as it is known today but there is an older church.
Pope was/is a title for a bishop. While St Peter was a bishop of the church in Rome, there were also other bishops that didn't have the title as pope. The church in Alexandria had St Mark the evangelist (the author of the gospel of Mark and disciple of Peter) as the bishop. The church was founded by Peter and Paul before they founded the church in Rome. There was also another church in Antioch also with a bishop and another in Constantinople I think with a bishop. The bishops are all named in the bible as apostles.
Successors of bishops are bishops, Pope is a title used by the Bishop of Rome so just as the Popes were mentioned in the Bible other bishops were mentioned or are mentioned in early church documents.

raphieMontella:

i dont even think there was a first church..as early as c.50 AD,there was already more than one church(form of christianity)..
But as early as 110 AD,the catholic church existed..thats what i know..The first three popes(according to catholic tradition) are even mentioned in the bible

the lord works in mysterious ways hey?

Splinz:


Says one who doesn't know the true history of the Church.

Scholar8200:
sir, explain this succinctly and also state how the once highlighted will be judged:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

So devil and his angels will have everlasting life too ?

Your knowledge of the history is shoddy and is bias to conspiracy theories. The Bible you mention are a collection of books, in fact the original Greek word for Bible is plural. There were several books or letters at the time and many didn't make the final Bible. Bible you have today is Martin Luther's collection in his wisdom. So Bible means different to different Christians. There were other apocalyptic books at the time but only Revelation was included. But there was a church and Christians worshipping God through Jesus Christ for years before the Bible was compiled. The different letters of Paul were to churches and they didn't have the other letters but there were churches and worshippers and Christians and Christianity.
William Tyndale was strangulated and his body burnt as he was declared a heretic by King Henry VII

Wilgrea7:

Christianity was preached by the apostles...
Constantine stopped persecution of Christians and merged the pure Christianity with pagan doctrines to gain population. even then, the bible wasn't distributed... only the pope had it... it was martin Luther who broke out from the roman Catholics. he pushed for individual bibles.. the Roman Catholic has always been hiding secrets.. thats why they burnt the first man who translated the bible to English

Wilgrea7:


Christianity was preached by the apostles...
Constantine stopped persecution of Christians and merged the pure Christianity with pagan doctrines to gain population. even then, the bible wasn't distributed... only the pope had it... it was martin Luther who broke out from the roman Catholics. he pushed for individual bibles.. the Roman Catholic has always been hiding secrets.. thats why they burnt the first man who translated the bible to English

Where did Martin Luther break out from? The Muslims, no. The Catholic, YES! CATHOLICISM IS THE FOUNDATION OF CHRISTIANITY.

Scholar8200:

Now ,sir, compare your explanation with what Jesus said here:

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:


48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched
Mark 9:47,48

Do you notice any correlation or contradiction?

Many folks tell me this verse is not to be taken at face value , that is why Christians are not plucking out their eyes from their sockets . but their smelling. hypocrisy will allow them take hellfire in that verse at face value .

my point is , according to this verse the human eyes go to hellfire ( see the underlined) , how many human eyes have you seen disappeared from the dead into hell ?

2. Are you telling us that the so called soul that go to hell actually have human eyes ? pls explain

Ever heard of the Septuagint and the Masoretic Texts of the OT? King James was translated from the MT and it is incorrect when you say all other versions were translated from King James but I think King James was the first English translation.

Wilgrea7:


yes sir.. i agree with you. God indeed is not partial.. he is just. King james was the first translation and other english translations are from king James. the first translation however was burnt and the translator was lynched.. pretty unfair . maybe they were trying to hide something.. only God knows

thanks again.. God bless

shadeyinka:


I believe that the response to the so called parables of Jesus and the meaning of His statements about hell is presented below


Please, let's focus on the message and instructions of Christ. The truth could be unacceptably bitter, but feelings do not change the truth

yes focusing on that Mark 9:47,48 . You will notice that Jesus is describing the human body not some imaginary ghost as going to hell


e.g he says TWO EYES in hell, the eyes he is talking about belongs to the human body , now does that not contradict the popular teaching that a soulish entity go to hell Whereas the founder of Christianity give a vivid human description ?

Peacefullove:


Many folks tell me this verse is not to be taken at face value , that is why Christians are not plucking out their eyes from their sockets . but their smelling. hypocrisy will allow them take hellfire in that verse at face value .

This can be understood when you read
Other parallel passages. On the act viz mortiication of erring body parts and a final hell. For example, Colossians 3:5 and Romans 8:13 explains Christ's intent in Matthew 5:29. Didnt Jesus tell us that defilement starts from the heart? Wont it then be a contradiction if we say there must be forced amputations to avoid sin?
On hell fire mentioned, go through the Scripture and see that it means exactly that. Else, what would be the final end of the devil?

Matthew 25:41

my point is , according to this verse the human eyes go to hellfire ( see the underlined) , how many human eyes have you seen disappeared from the dead into hell ?

2. Are you telling us that the so called soul that go to hell actually have human eyes ? pls explain

Just consider Matthew 25:41 and realise that the people there had not only eyes but mouths to talk.

otemanuduno:
Where did Martin Luther break out from? The Muslims, no. The Catholic, YES! CATHOLICISM IS THE FOUNDATION OF CHRISTIANITY.

Luther is not the author of the Christian faith. Before him there were many others that knew what Luther championed in his nation.

Peacefullove:


So devil and his angels will have everlasting life too ?

Where do you find that here? What I see is everlasting fire agreed to by Revelations 20:10

Scholar8200:
This can be understood when you read
Other parallel passages. On the act viz mortiication of erring body parts and a final hell. For example, Colossians 3:5 and Romans 8:13 explains Christ's intent in Matthew 5:29. Didnt Jesus tell us that defilement starts from the heart? Wont it then be a contradiction if we say there must be forced amputations to avoid sin?
On hell fire mentioned, go through the Scripture and see that it means exactly that.

he talked about Two human eyes in hell , have u seen an human whose eyes disappeared from their socket to hell ?


or Jesus is just a liar ? Clear this part please

Else, what would be the final end of the devil?

Matthew 25:41


Just consider Matthew 25:41 and realise that the people there had not only eyes but mouths to talk.

So devil and his angels will have everlasting life ?

TheSixthSense:
Your knowledge of the history is shoddy and is bias to conspiracy theories. The Bible you mention are a collection of books, in fact the original Greek word for Bible is plural. There were several books or letters at the time and many didn't make the final Bible. Bible you have today is Martin Luther's collection in his wisdom. So Bible means different to different Christians. There were other apocalyptic books at the time but only Revelation was included. But there was a church and Christians worshipping God through Jesus Christ for years before the Bible was compiled. The different letters of Paul were to churches and they didn't have the other letters but there were churches and worshippers and Christians and Christianity.
Yes, William Tyndale was strangulated and his body burnt as he was declared a heretic by the Roman Catholic church

wow... i never actually knew that.. thanks for the info.. do u have any knowledge of other bibles different from martin Luther's own? i would like to read a few.. thanks

Scholar8200:
Where do you find that here? What I see is everlasting fire agreed to by Revelations 20:10

*smiles*

popular tactic of evading logical points. it won't work here bro


for Satan and his angels to be preserved forever to be burning continuously, they must be ALIVE forever which necessitate having an everlasting LIFE
.

its. evident that someone whom will be alive forever must have everlasting life ,

everlasting life means never ending life , you mean Satan and his angels will have this too ?

I'm still waiting... is there no eternal torment preacher in the house to back up their doctrine

Wilgrea7:



ok.. now we're moving on to the book of revelation... this is where it gets interesting... but first let me address what you said above..

the rev 19:21 u quoted talks about them being eaten by fowls... Isaiah talks about them being eradicated through burning and being eaten by WORMS NOT FOWL.

That is nowhere in the Scriptures! Else why does it say they will be seen? Stop adding pls, let's be faithful to the text.

so they are saying two different things..

also... u said carcass and dead are used to refer to the same set of people... that means its only the carcass that will be thrown into the lake of fire and sinners alive won't be thrown there.

NO! You appear to be reading your own meanings to sth so clear! The dead=carcasses=sinners. Why did Jesus say,''let the dead bury their dead''?

u asked how will a lifeless carcass be tormented?? show me where Jesus said they will be tormented or when Isaiah said they will be tormented.. the only verse that speaks of tormenting for ever and ever is revelation.. so lets talk about it..

sir, the Bible is one. Prophecies on an issue can be found in various parts hence let's be faithful to this too.

In the case of Revelation 14:9-11, this passage is solely referring to those who have chosen to worship the beast and receive his mark during the 7-year tribulation period. This is apparently a heinous sin to God and therefore these people will be punished very severely.

The second reason we can’t take Revelation 14:9-11 as a reference to never-ending conscious torment is because this passage has a “sister text” which uses the very same terminology where the meaning can’t possibly be mistaken.

So Matthew 25:41 does not show that the Revelation 14 reference and all sinners have the same destiny?

This sister text is from the Old Testament and is therefore the foundation upon which Revelation 14:9-11 rests. Let’s go ahead and observe this passage:

Isaiah 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Observe how Isaiah 34:9-10 and Revelation 14:10-11 use the same terminology:

her dust [will be turned] into burning sulfur
He will be tormented with burning sulfur

its smoke will rise forever
 the smoke of their torment rises forever

It will not be quenched night and day
There is no rest day or night

Reading this passage we get the strong impression that the kingdom of Edom will burn forever and ever without end but the entire rest of the chapter renders this interpretation impossible. The rest of the chapter shows that Edom will become a desolate desert inhabited by owls, jackals and hyenas. Verses 5 & 6 state that the people of Edom will be “totally destroyed” and slaughtered, and Obadiah 10 & 18 back this up, stating that Edom will “be destroyed forever” — consumed by the fire of God’s judgment and wrath


Isaiah 34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. 34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but NONE SHALL BE THERE, and all her princes shall be nothing. 34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.

as you can see above edom was turned into a wasteland..... none shall be there... also like revelation

the word forever and ever has been used 56 times in the bible in connection with things that have already ended

NOTE: The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. * It is like the word "tall," which means something different in describing men, trees, or mountains. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights."
" I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." Jonah 2:6. (See also Jonah 1:17.)
In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22,28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.)

now when we lay this explanation of yours side by side with Daniel 12:2
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

Would you say that everlasting does not mean what it says for both groups?

Besides, NONE of those passages you quoted had anything to do with man but the land.

So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out

this ruling is found nowhere in Scriptures
And Jesus emphasized that the fire will never go out! Do you know better?

Peacefullove:


*smiles*

popular tactic of evading logical points. it won't work here bro


for Satan and his angels to be preserved forever to be burning continuously, they must be ALIVE forever which necessitate having an everlasting LIFE
.

its. evident that someone whom will be alive forever must have everlasting life ,

So that the devil has been there from Genesis till now means he has Everlasting Life that Jesus died to provide

everlasting life means never ending life , you mean Satan and his angels will have this too ?

bros, go study the meaning of Everlasting/Eternal Life.

Do you also infer that the second category here also have everlasting life?


2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
Daniel 12:2

Peacefullove:


he talked about Two human eyes in hell , have u seen an human whose eyes disappeared from their socket to hell ?


or Jesus is just a liar ? Clear this part please



So devil and his angels will have everlasting life ?

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:47
Now i am wondering where He said that eyes go to hell by themselves?

Here Christ speaks of the final judgment (hell being a precursor thereto) mentioned in Revelations 20. Note the phrase, ''cast into'':

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelations 20:15

Scholar8200:
That is nowhere in the Scriptures! Else why does it say they will be seen? Stop adding pls, let's be faithful to the text.


NO! You appear to be reading your own meanings to sth so clear! The dead=carcasses=sinners. Why did Jesus say,''let the dead bury their dead''?

sir, the Bible is one. Prophecies on an issue can be found in various parts hence let's be faithful to this too.


So Matthew 25:41 does not show that the Revelation 14 reference and all sinners have the same destiny?

now when we lay this explanation of yours side by side with Daniel 12:2
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

Would you say that everlasting does not mean what it says for both groups?

Besides, NONE of those passages you quoted had anything to do with man but the land.

this ruling is found nowhere in Scriptures
And Jesus emphasized that the fire will never go out! Do you know better?

how does dead=carcass= sinners
my great grandfather is dead... let's assume he was a righteous Christian. so automatically he becomes a sinner because he's dead?? sir your claim has no ground


yes all sinners have the same destiny. death... destruction

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

God's fire is unquenchable.. no amount of water can quench it... it will destroy!!

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Sodom and Gomorrah is the example... ash.
totally destroyed

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

neither root nor branch.
yes.. i agree that Jesus never said the fire will not go out.. don't forget I've given u Edom as an example of your forever and ever

Jesus also never said anyone will burn and burn and not be destroyed.. in fact, Jesus listed destruction many times

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell.

you said the edom passages have nothing to do with man right?

“They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but NONE SHALL BE THERE, and all her princes shall be nothing."


John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I've showed u the verses u say talk of everlasting torment.. I've shown u what they really mean.. ok.. then explain these verses above and in the picture below in the light of everlasting torment

Wilgrea7:



how does dead=carcass= sinners
my great grandfather is dead... let's assume he was a righteous Christian. so automatically he becomes a sinner because he's dead?? sir your claim has no ground

We are referring to some passages here and we should respect that context. Else,how do you understand Jesus saying, "let the dead bury their dead"?

yes all sinners have the same destiny. death... destruction

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

God's fire is unquenchable.. no amount of water can quench it... it will destroy!!

destroy with torments that lasts Eternally given no rest.

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Sodom and Gomorrah is the example... ash.
totally destroyed

But Isaiah spoke of carcass not ashes meaning the case here is different.

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

neither root nor branch.

That's on Earth see Revelations 20:9 but in that same chapter we find another fire that does not burn up vs 15!

yes.. i agree that Jesus never said the fire will not go out.. don't forget I've given u Edom as an example of your forever and ever

Jesus also never said anyone will burn and burn and not be destroyed.. in fact, Jesus listed destruction many times

And He said:
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark9:47,48.

Just in case anyone will argue, we have the story of Lazarus and the Rich man.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell.

If soul and body in hell has to do with annihilation then you indirectly accuse Jesus of misleading us with the story of Lazarus. Besides, on what criteria will one be literal and the other figurative here:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to[b] everlasting life[/b], and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2
This agrees with Isaiah saying they will be visibly seen.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I've showed u the verses u say talk of everlasting torment.. I've shown u what they really mean.. ok.. then explain these verses above and in the picture below in the light of everlasting torment

Why will they be resurrected? Revelations 20 shows us the reason and there they are still called the dead. And it further tells us of their destination- Lake of fire. And of that place the uniform testimony of scripture is that those who go there will be tormented for ever (no grading of sins and determining duration therein is remotely alluded to).

Now in Revelations 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

After this we have a period of 1000years of the Millenial reign. Then:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10

How come after a 1000 years, the beast and the false prophet will still be there?

Pls dont refer to a grading of sin and determine duration based on that except you have sufficient references to support it. (sounds to me like a modified version of purgatory you're trying to invent.)

The reformation was in the 16th century after Martin Luther presented his 95 thesis against the Roman Catholic church, mind you the Roman catholic church is the church in Rome with the bishop with the title Pope. It was from 1054AD that the Roman Catholic church became known as 'roman catholic' prior to that was one Holy Catholic(Universal) Apostolic church which had churches in Rome Antioch Alexandria Constantinople and others like the one mentioned in Revelations. So there is a difference or rather confusion when people say the first church was the catholic church. Yes, Catholic (universal) but not Roman catholic (which is the church in Rome).

The Orthodox church as it is known today is the oldest church as was together with the church in Rome, before the schism in 1054AD, as one catholic church. They still exist today although most of their churches in their original locations were overran by the muslim ottoman jihadists and those places predominantly muslim. The church in Rome remains till this day, and Rome christian, because of the crusades in response to the brutal Jihad Ottoman empire. The Roman catholics would say because Jesus Christ said to 'Peter Simon Cephas, on this rock I would build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it' and yes, beneath the catacombs of the Basillica lies the remains of St Peter. Amazingly, it wasn't done intentionally. This statement/prophecy by Christ has come to mean different things to different christians today.

About Bibles, the Orthodox bible contains books that are not even in the Roman catholic bible and it's old testament is translated from the Septuagint (LXX). Most of the Bibles in circulation and on apps and the internet have old testaments translated from the Masoretic texts (MT). You should check it out. Both editions are largely the same with slight to outright omissions and change of words but for me one key verse made a significant difference for me (Isa 53:10) which reads like God was pleased to crush Jesus on the Cross in MT but in the LXX it reads completely differently and shows compassion of a loving God. The early church fathers used the LXX to describe that verse but the protestants and even the roman catholics use the MT which invariably describes a very angry God who used the crucifixion to quell his wrath.
The Orthodox Bible comprises of, in addition to the NT, 49 OT (LXX) books which includes a rearrangement of the Book of Daniel and some additions, Prayer of Manasseh in 2 Chronicles, Psalm 151 and all the protestant termed 'apocryphal' books. The Catholic Bible comprises of a few less, 46 OT (probably MT but not sure), but includes the epistle of Jeremiah in Baruch, excludes 3 maccabees and has Nehemiah and Ezra joined as 2 Esdras. Then the protestant Bible has 39 OT (MT) books excluding the apocrypha and 'additions to Esther', excluding 'Susanna', 'Bel and the Serpent', and 'Hymn of the three young men' as in the book of Daniel in the Catholic and Orthodox versions and also no Psalm 151.

The Orthodox and Roman catholics would say that Martin Luther rejected the apocryphal books because it did not fit his 'faith alone' doctrine that he even wanted to exclude James because James was explicit in saying faith alone cannot save and faith without works is dead. The apocryphal books and even the prayer of Manasseh contradicts the 'faith alone' doctrine but the protestants have their own version of the story that is always anti-roman catholic. But Martin Luther decided a lot of things all by himself and this had never been the practice since the history of the church.
The protestants eventually came up with the five Solas (Scripture alone, faith alone, grace alone, christ alone, Glory to God alone) by the 20th century and everyone was left to define a church using scripture but even that is flawed because the church is then defined by various interpretations thus the 33,000 denominations in christianity (including JWs and Mormons) , of which 99.999999% can more or less be traced back to the 16th century reformation, that all use the reformed Bible (66 books) even to define the Catholics and destine them to Hell Fire Pentecostalism began early in the 20th century btw and have come to have new definitions and description of the Holy Spirit and His gifts and salvation and rapture and tithing and seeds depends on who you are listening to.

If you are interested in church history, read it as a christian, with your faith locked in on Jesus Christ with no prejudice. I enjoyed reading this: 'The Catholic Church has no fear of science or scientific discovery' from the catholic's view on evolution http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution

I am not a roman catholic but I see that the catholic church has learned from past mistakes like locking up Galileo when he found that the earth revolves round the sun and with the pope apologising to gay people on how the church has treated them all along really shows what Christ and love is about not insensitively branding people for eternal torture in hell because they are gay, typical of protestants especially end-time pentecostals, and at the same time proclaiming love. Unlike the anglican/episcopal churches who have started ordaining gay priests, it is highly unlikely that they would start acting contrary to Scripture. They believe reason and science gives more meaning to religion and God and it is not a threat.

The Catholics and Orthodox document every doctrine and decision on dogma and even sermons(catechisms) even from the early centuries and their teachings are based on interpretations of early Saints and apostles, the people that knew the first apostles that Christ chose. Sorry for the long post I just had to share.

Wilgrea7:

wow... i never actually knew that.. thanks for the info.. do u have any knowledge of other bibles different from martin Luther's own? i would like to read a few.. thanks

Scholar8200:
We are referring to some passages here and we should respect that context. Else,how do you understand Jesus saying, "let the dead bury their dead"?

destroy with torments that lasts Eternally given no rest.





But Isaiah spoke of carcass not ashes meaning the case here is different.


That's on Earth see Revelations 20:9 but in that same chapter we find another fire that does not burn up vs 15!

And He said:
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark9:47,48.

Just in case anyone will argue, we have the story of Lazarus and the Rich man.



If soul and body in hell has to do with annihilation then you indirectly accuse Jesus of misleading us with the story of Lazarus. Besides, on what criteria will one be literal and the other figurative here:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to[b] everlasting life[/b], and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2
This agrees with Isaiah saying they will be visibly seen.


Why will they be resurrected? Revelations 20 shows us the reason and there they are still called the dead. And it further tells us of their destination- Lake of fire. And of that place the uniform testimony of scripture is that those who go there will be tormented for ever (no grading of sins and determining duration therein is remotely alluded to).

Now in Revelations 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

After this we have a period of 1000years of the Millenial reign. Then:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10

How come after a 1000 years, the beast and the false prophet will still be there?

Pls dont refer to a grading of sin and determine duration based on that except you have sufficient references to support it. (sounds to me like a modified version of purgatory you're trying to invent.)

i don't understand your "dead bury their dead" please wats d scripture.

Isaisah spoke of carcass meaning dead thing.. he spoke of fire and worms meaning they are dead and being destroyed.. carcass and the dead as used in revelation is entirely different.. if carcass means the dead in revelations then what of the living sinners? the carcass sinner logic is greatly flawed.

also.. how can you destroy something with torment forever? i mean... its just like saying I'll burn you with water..

your case of the worm dieth not and fire not quenched has been explained by Isaiah..
firstly u said the slain is part of the Armageddon fight and now the carcass is a different story of the dead waking up to everlasting contempt. you're contradicting yourself... Isaiah was talking about the same event and not two different events as you're trying to imply..


Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.


as you can see... the fire and the sword are used to destroy the same set of people.. no fowls here eating any flesh.. it seems you are the one quoting out of context.. also the last verse talks about them being CONSUMED together..

I've cleared u on that.. I'm still waiting for u to explain all the verses in the picture i sent in the light of eternal torment

Any protestant particularly pentecostal who reads the Bible is bound to argue and complain because, unless one doesn't read the Bible for personal gains, there is no way on earth you wouldn't accuse or try to point out what the next christian or church even your church is doing that is contrary to what is written in the Bible according to your interpretation. Reading early protestant authors you find exactly the same complaints about other christians and churches, of course the catholic church as the anti-christ as you have today, isn't it funny? but how about leaving the interpretation for people in authority in the church? because even the bible says that the judgement of teachers would be more stringent. (James 3:1)

Revelations 22:18-19 gives a serious warning which so many people ignore 'I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.' The Holy Bible is sacred and filled with parables, and misinterpretations particularly of the book of revelations have given rise to so many false doctrines over the centuries. I know the Orthodox never read the Book of Revelations in their liturgies for this reason but their beliefs which the early Saints and Orthodox holds is elaborately described to the letter based on Scripture.

"So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, 'Do you understand what you are reading?' He replied, 'How can I, unless someone guides me?'..." (Acts 8:30-31)

TheSixthSense:
OP while your explanation is plausible and makes a lot of sense. I would suggest you leave it as a mystery rather than outrightly calling it false. The JWs who don't believe in Jesus Christ also use the same adjusted comma to give it the meaning consistent with your teaching thus: 'Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise'
Many people have died and come back to life, they are quite many that it would be really obstinate to discredit all of their experiences. Plus, I'm sure there are scriptural references, which I don't know about, for those of us that believe it is immediate like the early Christians did.
About eternal torment, it is a perspective thing on how one views God in light of their scriptural interpretation. The Bible describes our Lord Jesus Christ as a consuming fire and those who reject Him would experience Him as exactly that. I have come learn that threatening unbelievers with hell is not only ignorant but very arrogant and this is also the foundation of atheism in the church. There is no love in that and it is contradictory to our God that is Love. God is Good, Just, and Not partial and in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him (Acts 10:35) God loves workers of righteousness no matter what they currently believe and He finds them.
I only pity those that curse God because they have become atheists not even the indifferent atheists that disbelieved because of perhaps plausible reasons.

[color=#000099][/color]

The JWs believe in Jesus and that is why they actively follow his footsteps by preaching the good news about God's Kingdom. Again, no one has died and come back to life. Any who said he was dead and back to life was only in a Coma or dat person is lying. The resurrection is still future (John 5:28, 29). The hell fire belief is not a mystery and d Bible clearly explains d condition of the dead. Nothing survives d body after death (Ezekiel 18:4, 20) If God were to punish d wicked eternally, Adam would have been d first. But there's no scripture indicating that Adam is somewhere lamenting or paying for his rebellion. Rather, God told Adam that in the very day he eats from the tree, he (Adam) will die. For dust he is and to dust he will return. Of all the 8 resurrection acounts in the Bible, none of those resurrected told us what happened d few days or hours they died because they seized to exist d moment they died and were unconcious of their surrounding. (Eccle 9:5, 10) If God did not torment Adam eternally who committed d worst of crime dat led to our getting sick, growing old and dying, why will He an epitome of love choose to torment us forever; even beyond d number of years we lived and committed sins? That will mean injustice and God is never unjust.

Scholar8200:
Luther is not the author of the Christian faith. Before him there were many others that knew what Luther championed in his nation.

Who said Luther was the author of Christianity? The authors were the writers of Matthew to John. Eusebius was the modifier and finisher of the Christian faith thru the platform of Catholicism. Luther only changed the face of xtianity. And today we have more than 4,000 versions of Xtianity, antagonizing one another.

Scholar8200:

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:47
Now i am wondering where He said that eyes go to hell by themselves?



Here Christ speaks of the final judgment

divided Christianity, so according to you Jesus use of hell means speaking of final judgement, are you saying people or NOBODy will go to that hell until the final judgement ?

(hell being a precursor thereto) mentioned in Revelations 20. Note the phrase, ''cast into'':

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelations 20:15

Yes , I note the phrase " cast into" so because of that phrase hell in Mark 9:47 is now the same as lake of fire mentioned in Revelation ? remember Revelation 20:14 which differentiate hell from lake of fire in your bible before u spew rubbish.

Scholar8200:

So that the devil has been there from Genesis till now means he has Everlasting Life that Jesus died to provide



bros, go study the meaning of Everlasting/Eternal Life.


Do you also infer that the second category here also have everlasting life?


2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
Daniel 12:2

kindly tell me in simple English, the meaning of Everlasting life ?

JetReuel:

The JWs believe in Jesus and that is why they actively follow his footsteps by preaching the good news about God's Kingdom. Again, no one has died and come back to life. Any who said he was dead and back to life was only in a Coma or dat person is lying. The resurrection is still future (John 5:28, 29).

You believe in Jesus Christ and don't believe He is God, believe He was created ... there are just too many falsehoods (not to be disrespectful) the JWs teach and I interpret that as disbelief in Jesus Christ. I read the Gospels and always find Jesus Christ as God who always welcomed worship.
There are so many verses which show that He is God and I won't try because you guys never listen or even research for yourselves.
Some questions for you to ponder upon
1. What do you have to lose to acknowledge the Son of God and worship Him as God especially when Jesus Christ said the 'Father is glorified in me and I in the Father'?Would Jehovah who glorifies His Son and set Him above angels send you to hell/destroy your soul/spirit (however JWs believe) for doing so?

2. When did your religion start and what did other people believe prior to the advent of your Kingdom Halls and Bibles? If yours is true then are all the other people who had faith, believed and worshipped Jesus Christ as God destined for condemnation?

3. Why hasn't the world ended despite the numerous predictions JWs predict over the centuries?

Obviously, you haven't read about the history of your religion or how the protestant Bible from which JWs modified to suit their interpretation came to be and the works of early christians and apostles if not you would not be here arguing for JWs. Better start reading to set yourself free by searching for answers yourself. I hope you are not as primitive to think that the NWT Bible dropped from the sky written by God.
Also, you saying no one has died and come back to life, do you know that for certain or you just refute because of what? There are many verifiable experiences all around if you care to look.

And just because it is uncomfortable even terrifying to imagine God's form of punishment, it doesn't justify misinterpretation and wrong teaching. If that is God's form of justice then so it is. He is God. But one shouldn't try to explain away what Scripture and Jesus Christ taught to make themselves feel good.

TheSixthSense:

1. What do you have to lose to acknowledge the Son of God and worship Him as God especially when Jesus Christ said the 'Father is glorified in me and I in the Father'?Would Jehovah who glorifies His Son and set Him above angels send you to hell/destroy your soul/spirit (however JWs believe) for doing so?

Please Where is This Sixthsense?

TheSixthSense:
Any protestant particularly pentecostal who reads the Bible is bound to argue and complain because, unless one doesn't read the Bible for personal gains, there is no way on earth you wouldn't accuse or try to point out what the next christian or church even your church is doing that is contrary to what is written in the Bible according to your interpretation. Reading early protestant authors you find exactly the same complaints about other christians and churches, of course the catholic church as the anti-christ as you have today, isn't it funny? but how about leaving the interpretation for people in authority in the church? because even the bible says that the judgement of teachers would be more stringent. (James 3:1)

Revelations 22:18-19 gives a serious warning which so many people ignore 'I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.' The Holy Bible is sacred and filled with parables, and misinterpretations particularly of the book of revelations have given rise to so many false doctrines over the centuries. I know the Orthodox never read the Book of Revelations in their liturgies for this reason but their beliefs which the early Saints and Orthodox holds is elaborately described to the letter based on Scripture.

"So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, 'Do you understand what you are reading?' He replied, 'How can I, unless someone guides me?'..." (Acts 8:30-31)

this is very nice... what u said about protestants is very true.. too much bigotry.. everyone pointing fingers... that's d main reason I'm not fused with denominations....

so the Catholic isn't the Antichrist??
its still a question on my mind that I've not clarified..

I've read some books like the book of Enoch sha.. I'll continue reading others at my spare time

i consider myself a lost sheep
but i sincerely do not think today's church is my home

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear[b]: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; [/b]yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

The fire of hell does not quench neither does its worm dies
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The torments never ends!

The shame and regrets never ends!

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


You are warned Hell is real!



Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.