DeepSight:



http://bibleanswerstand.org/before.htm
.

Here's the conclusion on this site :

Therefore, John 8:58 is more accurately translated as, “Truly, truly I say to you, I exist as superior in rank to Abraham’s existence.” The UBS Greek text reads, “prín Abraám genésthai egoó eimí” In other words, Jesus is telling these Jews that his rank in the kingdom of God is greater than that of their father Abraham. Once he said this, the Jews took up stones to stone him to death.

But you assented to Xenophanes' concept of Theology where he posits that no divine hierarchy exists . So if that text means that Christ has a rank in Heaven , that means you see Christ as God's subordinate . True ?

DeepSight:


I think you should stop posting this very dangerous image, which poses potentially serious threats to world peace especially on this board.

Oh ... I think I get what you mean

KingEbukasBlog:

Here's the conclusion on this site :
Therefore, John 8:58 is more accurately translated as, “Truly, truly I say to you, I exist as superior in rank to Abraham’s existence.” The UBS Greek text reads, “prín Abraám genésthai egoó eimí” In other words, Jesus is telling these Jews that his rank in the kingdom of God is greater than that of their father Abraham. Once he said this, the Jews took up stones to stone him to death.
But you assented to Xenophanes' concept of Theology where he posits that no divine hierarchy exists . So if that text means that Christ has a rank in Heaven , that means you see Christ as God's subordinate . True ?

^^^ Most definitely, Jesus the Nazarene is subject and subordinate to God by far - by a great incomprehensible gap: just same as with every mortal.

As to hierarchy, in case you mistook me, I meant I see no hierarchy within the Godhead as it is ONE.

KingEbukasBlog:


Oh ... I think I get what you mean

Allahu Akbar.

DeepSight:


No it is not. And you know that.

The poster was either trying to be sarcastic with the question, or was trying to bait and box me into one of two very very narrow definitions of my worldview.

plaetton:


The poster was either trying to be sarcastic with the question, or was trying to bait and boxbme into one of two very very narrow definitions of my worldview.

Biko, nna, ke bu 'boxbme'?

plaetton:


The poster was either trying to be sarcastic with the question, or was trying to bait and boxbme into one of two very very narrow definitions of my worldview.

You can be religious and still be be goddless and you can be irreligious and still be godly

Read more : https://www.nairaland.com/3500235/must-read-god-without-religion

Ishilove:

Biko, nna, ke bu 'boxbme'?

box me ... I think

KingEbukasBlog:


box me ... I think

oh...I fear

Ishilove:

oh...I fear

See your face

plaetton:

See your face

When you sef are typing Igbo

DeepSight:



^^^ Most definitely, Jesus the Nazarene is subject and subordinate to God by far - by a great incomprehensible gap: just same as with every mortal.

As to hierarchy, in case you mistook me, I meant I see no hierarchy within the Godhead as it is ONE.

Let's look at the temptation of Christ by the devil

Why do you think the devil was interested in Christ submitting to him ?

And the story ended with this verse

11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.

The devil came and left then the angels also came to minister to Him .

DeepSight:



^^^ Most definitely, Jesus the Nazarene is subject and subordinate to God by far - by a great incomprehensible gap: just same as with every mortal.

As to hierarchy, in case you mistook me, I meant I see no hierarchy within the Godhead as it is ONE.

No electron is more electron than all other electrons.
All electrons = electron.

The only thing that differentiates one electron or a set of electrons from the other is the rate of vibrations or frequency.

Ye are gods, all of you.

Raise your frequency, and you become the godhead.

plaetton:

Neither.

I am a natural, free, mentally SOVEREIGN human being.

Both Religion and god are artificial, man-made constructs.

I refuse to define myself within those shallow, superficial boundaries.

For example, to define myself as GODLESS , I would first have to acknowledge that there is such a thing as god,..and I don't.

I cannot have less of what doesn't exist,..at least in my universe.

Likewise, to say that I am IRRELIGIOUS is to presume that being religious is a natural default state,.. which it is not.

The summary of your person, with your own mouth. You are irreligious and godless.

Religion exists, denial of presence is not absence, there is nothing you can do about it.

God is. Again, denial of presence is not absence, there is nothing you can do about it too.

You are irreligious and godless

MrPresident1:


The summary of your person, with your own mouth. You are irreligious and godless.

Religion exists, denial of presence is not absence, there is nothing you can do about it.

God is. Again, denial of presence is not absence, there is nothing you can do about it too.

You are irreligious and godless

Only if you accept, likewise, that you are Santa-less, despite that the belief in good ol Santa IS.

DeepSight:


He is not a dumb lad: he is merely too deeply steeped in his doctrine to even see what is written in scripture.

Yeah.
The lad has potential.
But , I am afraid that his situation is so malignant, we may need to do physical Brain surgery, a lobotomy of sorts , to remove so much crap from his young mind.

DeepSight:


This verse is an indication that he existed in eternity before Abraham's earthly sojourn, no?

You should see here that there are different perceptions of the correct translation of that verse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_eimi

Although attempts have been made to insist that it is a claim that he was God, this is not so. The wording only shows that he says that he exists in eternity before any earthly Abraham, and indeed before any earthly being.

Now let me ask you: how does this make him God? Do you not know that many beings exist in eternity before any earthly Abraham and before any earthly being? Do you not know that you and I count among these as well?

I see a contradiction here sir . If we all exist in eternity then Christ shouldn't have said that he existed before Abraham because Abraham is human . I presumed that you meant existing as spirits before incarnation - this means both Christ and Abraham coexist in eternity .

Instead Christ said :

“Before Abraham Was Born, I Am

You dig ? What I'm saying is that we can't exist in eternity . We as human spirits have a beginning but apparently Christ does not have a beginning - this makes Him God .

And Colossians 1:15-17 shows that Christ was begotten from all eternity - God is the source of existence , the precursor of all that exists .

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together

plaetton:


Yeah.
The lad has potential.
But , I am afraid that his situation is so malignant, we may need to do physical Brain surgery, a lobotomy of sorts , to remove so much crap from his young mind.

Just because I acknowledge the existence of God , I mean the trinity . Haba .

plaetton:


No electron is more electron than all other electrons.
All electrons = electron.

The only thing that differentiates one electron or a set of electrons from the other is the rate of vibrations or frequency.

Ye are gods, all of you.

Raise your frequency, and you become the godhead.

How did this electron begin to exist? I hope you aint talking of the Prime Radiant Theory - replacing the 'Prime Radiant' with electron

KingEbukasBlog:




Just because I acknowledge the existence of God , I mean the trinity . Haba .

You said it, not me.

plaetton:


Only if you accept, likewise, that you are Santa-less, despite that the belief in good ol Santa IS.

But there is Santa , and the denial of Santa' existence is not his absence. He gives gifts to little children at Christmas

plaetton:

Good job Deepsight ?

What he is doing to that poor child is child abuse.
He should be ashamed of himself.

It's more like Real Madrid vs Brighton. I saw this coming when he asked for a debate with Deepsight. He got schooled big time.

ifenes:


It's more like Real Madrid vs Brighton. I saw this coming when he asked for a debate with Deepsight. He got schooled big time.

Don't conclude yet . I'm gona prove my mettle

Its cool the good sire is exposing me to more perspectives , its a good thing . I could use those perspectives aptly .

KingEbukasBlog:

We as human spirits have a beginning but apparently Christ does not have a beginning - this makes Him God .

And Colossians 1:15-17 shows that Christ was begotten from all eternity - God is the source of existence , the precursor of all that exists .

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

I leave you to reconcile the words in bold and especially the words in red bold.
How you can call someone the firstborn of creation and at the same time insist that he had no beginning and is therefore God is frankly beyond me.

I hope you can see how this renders your alleged contradiction a non starter.
The contradiction that is obvious is yours and yours alone.

There is something about this deepsight guy. Can't place it but the guy is deep.

dalaman:
There is something about this deepsight guy. Can't place it but the guy is deep.

His ways of thinking is just amazing.
His moniker is really befitting.

DeepSight:


I leave you to reconcile the words in bold and especially the words in red bold.
How you can call someone the firstborn of creation and at the same time insist that he had no beginning and is therefore God is frankly beyond me.

I hope you can see how this renders your alleged contradiction a non starter.
The contradiction that is obvious is yours and yours alone.

First born shows preexistence not the first to be created . The Greek word for first born is "prototokos" which denotes superiority in rank . That means first born here means the highest of all , the greatest , the most supreme , the eternal precursor of all that exists , all creation . Now let's introduce the true translation of first born into that verse

Verse 15 : He is the image of the invisible God, the first born most supreme of all creation.

Remember Christ was described as the image of an invisible God. Now check this out

John 14:9
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Now see how verse 16 logically follows verse 15 with the new translation and interpretation

Verse 16: For by him the Supreme being who is Christ , all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Isn't God called the Supreme Being , the eternal creator of all things , the eternal source of all that exists ?



In case you are not convinced , we can also see more verses where firstborn shows superiority and not first created

Psalm 89:20
20 I have found David, my servant;
with my holy oil I have anointed him,

Then in verse 27

Psalm 89:27
27 And I will make him the firstborn,
the highest of the kings of the earth.

Of course , we know that David isn't the eldest in his family but he was referred to as the first born - the highest of all kings on earth .

DeepSight:


I leave you to reconcile the words in bold and especially the words in red bold.
How you can call someone the firstborn of creation and at the same time insist that he had no beginning and is therefore God is frankly beyond me.

I hope you can see how this renders your alleged contradiction a non starter.
The contradiction that is obvious is yours and yours alone.

ended.

MrMontella:

ended.

Dude scroll up and see the rebuttal . Ended where ? We just gettin' started bro

KingEbukaNaija:


Dude scroll up and see the rebuttal . Ended where ? We just gettin' started bro

your rebuttal doesnt cut...
If i may say...your davidic input adds more substance to deepsight's stance..

We all can be said to be the image of the invisible God...Gen 1:26..


And you'd agree that angels too can be inferred from the bible as being in God's image too..and they were in existence before the universe..
If you grip..

Well that would be all from me...lest i be an interferer..

MrMontella:

your rebuttal doesnt cut...
If i may say...your davidic input adds more substance to deepsight's stance..

We all can be said to be the image of the invisible God...Gen 1:26..


And you'd agree that angels too can be inferred from the bible as being in God's image too..and they were in existence before the universe..
If you grip..

Well that would be all from me...lest i be an interferer..

You didn't properly address the rebuttal . Because it went on to address Christ as the creator of all things - God The Father created all things through Christ . It does not say that Christ is God's creation . It actually means that Christ and The Father coexist eternally as One . They are One . Christ told Philip that he does not need to see the Father because He is here , He is God .

The Trinity is beautiful

Not surprising, my friend.

KingEbukaNaija:


First born shows preexistence not the first to be created

Whooooops! Really, kind sir?

Let me ask you, is a being that always existed "born" at all?

Why would you say that

~ God always existed,

~ Christ is God - and yet:

~ Christ was the first born of creation?

Verse 15 : He is the image of the invisible God, the first born most supreme of all creation.

How does it escape you that you have just identified him as the most supreme of all creation?

Does that not mean that he is a created being - part of creation - only, according to you: the most supreme of it?

If a person is the most supreme of creation, how is that same person the creator?

Does the creator not stand outside of all creation: indeed transcend all creation?

When will you reflect on your words carefully and stop the patent absurdities?

Take a deep breath and pause: its not compulsory to defend and retain obvious absurdities as your conviction you know?

Remember Christ was described as the image of an invisible God.

Just as surely as the same scripture says you and I are made in the Image of God.

So what conclusion does that draw?

Now check this out

John 14:9
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

I have told you before that every interaction with another human being is an interaction with God - more so when one is interacting with his envoy. Jesus was a messenger of God. Thus this statement of his is apt.

Note however, that the very same scripture carefully advises that no man has seen God - John 1:18 - and that the son has however made God known. This explains it all.

Now see how verse 16 logically follows verse 15 with the new translation and interpretation

Verse 16: For by him the Supreme being who is Christ , all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

How can you even use the words "through him" and "for him" without recognizing that if something is done then it is "for" that person.

These words serve in direct contradiction to what you espouse and show God acting over and above Christ - "through him, and for him" - in the words that you quoted.

I am getting tired of you quoting things that manifestly show the opposite of what you insist they say.

Isn't God called the Supreme Being , the creator of all things , the source of all that exists ?



In case you are not convinced , we can also see more verses where firstborn shows superiority and not first created

Psalm 89:20
20 I have found David, my servant;
with my holy oil I have anointed him,

Then in verse 27

Psalm 89:27
27 And I will make him the firstborn,
the highest of the kings of the earth.

Of course , we know that David isn't the eldest in his family but he was referred to as the first born- the highest of all kings on earth

What is all this please?