Empire, the guy said: “My major problem with the bible is the many many MAJOR REVISIONS of the original "BOOK"”
Revision means amendments, modifications, changes, etc.
The question is ‘How has he proved this?’. He just listed great grandfather, grandfather, etc write up and you immediately bought into this? If his great grandfather wrote a book and the subsequent generations revised it how EXACTLY did this same apply to the Bible? Who first wrote what and who revised what? Where is the logic in his argument? Are you so shallow as to just accept ANYTHING just because it is against your opponent?
Is the Genesis of the Catholics different from that of the Protestants? How does additional number of books by one party amount to changing the rest of the collections?
IF there were anything wrong in the Bible how does that make Islam right? How does that make the CONTRADICTIONS, SCIENTIFIC ABSURDITIES, HISTORICAL ERRORS and GENERAL LACK OF ORDER of the Koran justified? A book Allah had in heaven before Mohamed was born which could not be arranged in any logical order; and that is a god? A book where a god PRAYS for his subject? A book where a god makes supplications to himself? A book that takes other books to be understood and yet claims to be CLEAR?
EMPIREE, it is not a matter of copy and paste. Christians are NOT afraid of scrutiny of their book or attack on their position. Shadeyinka has pulled out what you think is a MAJOR BLOW against Christianity by that man. Already the loopholes are showing up. So, just because a man says something against Christianity does not make it correct. It has to stand up scrutiny. Just believing it means you are not thorough in looking at things. Maybe that is why you are in Islam.
That is exactly what contemporary Islam is preaching as if the bible is "English".
Anyone including you can decide to translate the bible from the original languages into any language you are comfortable with. No one will stop you: even as a Muslim, if you want your own translation, you have access to the original manuscript to use.
Unfortunately, as Muslims, it takes a Christian to reveal to you that over 120 English translations of the Qur'an exist AND some of them has done a few editions ( the same offence you ascribe to the bible, if you need Evidence, I'll gladly provide).
There is no tribe under the sun that doesn't have the bible in their own language. That is beautiful because everyone can interpret the plain words according to how their conscience move them from the position of KNOWLEDGE and not IGNORANCE!
Do Muslims have the Arabic Quran translated into other languages including English? YES! Do some of these English translations have several Editions? YES!
So, what's your point?
Cc: Empiree
Sorry, I'm not a frequent Nairalander.......... My point is not about translation of the bible, I am talking about "REVISIONS" and making "SIGNIFICANT ALTERATIONS"
Take a look at 1st John 5:7 In the Kings James version it reads: ..."For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one"....but in the Revised Standard Version the same 1st John 5:7 simply reads..."And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth"
Mark 16.........Verses 9 to 20 which talk about 1. how Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene 2. How Jesus also Appears to Two Disciples 3. How Jesus Commissions the Disciples 4. And the Ascension of Jesus All these are vital component of Christianity, but they were removed from the 1952 version of the RSV only to be brought in again 20 years later in the 1971 version
Even the most important word in the very popular John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life".....in the RSV, the word "begotten" was removed from the verse
There are just so so so many alterations to the bible that I can't call it my great great grand father's book anymore..........That is exactly my point, not about translation at all
You needn't escape from this: could it be that you couldn't find someone to help you through the scriptures I posted? Since you seem to be intimidated by the scriptures, let me move at your pace on your "parable of Lazarus and the rich man"!
For your sake, I am going to treat it purely as a parable and we'll look at the conclusion. A parable is an analogy in story form which teaches a doctrinal lesson.
So, let's start: What was Jesus teaching with the parable? 1. Everyone should live his life to please God because everyone would be judged according to how they have pleased God with their lives 2. Don't waste the privilege God has given you on this earth 3. The amount of material blessings you have isn't an indication of how truly blessed of God you are 4. There is reconning of your deeds after death. Physical Death isn't the end of consciousness 5. There are two possible places a person can be after death: a place of bliss and a place of suffering. 6. From the place of the dead, you can't send help to the living. Therefore those who are alive should not expect a supernatural validation of judgement after death.
Now, I have treated it as a parable and it still contradict JW doctrines.
I challenge you to show me that the dead are unconscious from this passage.
If you claim that it's just a parable, let's see the lessons therein? You may wish to explain the symbols, I want to understand your interpretation of the parable.
You've said it all! True Christians aren't out for challenging others for any reason, we only make simple presentations and whoever finds delight0 in our message will ask for more. I only explain one symbol 'FATHER ABRAHAM'{God} but for the sake of WISDOM{Luke 7:35} i'll explain just one more symbol! LAZARUS! ¤Lazarus means the common Jews of Jesus' days, they are like spiritual BEGGARS in the sense that they often go for spirituals food in the hands of their spiritual leaders{Pharisees} who just feed them with whatever they quote/unquote for their own personal benefits. John 9:22,34 compared to Matthew 23:23-24 The SORES in his legs represents several bondage the people have experienced in the hands of pagan nations as God often abandon them to be punished by those pagans when they err. The DOGS{Matthew 15:21-28} represents those pagan nations like Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Rome e.t.c using the opportunity to claim taxes and other dues from God's own people. Lasarus's death means a change in condition,which happened at the presence of the Messiah{Jesus} as himself and his forerunner John the baptists condemned all those religious leaders and favoured the common people{Lazarus}. Matthew 3:7-10 compared to Luke 22 :30 Abraham's bosom connotes divine favour!
Sorry, I'm not a frequent Nairalander.......... My point is not about translation of the bible, I am talking about "REVISIONS" and making "SIGNIFICANT ALTERATIONS"
Take a look at 1st John 5:7 In the Kings James version it reads: ..."For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one"....but in the Revised Standard Version the same 1st John 5:7 simply reads..."And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth"
Mark 16.........Verses 9 to 20 which talk about 1. how Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene 2. How Jesus also Appears to Two Disciples 3. How Jesus Commissions the Disciples 4. And the Ascension of Jesus All these are vital component of Christianity, but they were removed from the 1952 version of the RSV only to be brought in again 20 years later in the 1971 version
Even the most important word in the very popular John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life".....in the RSV, the word "begotten" was removed from the verse
There are just so so so many alterations to the bible that I can't call it my great great grand father's book anymore..........That is exactly my point, not about translation at all
You need to understand this: The Bible in its original languages has remained the same. So, the analogy or whatever he was trying to make is IRRELEVANT. NO ONE has changed the original Hebrew manuscripts. NO ONE has changed the original Greek manuscripts.
Translations may be made by different bodies at different times in history. But the originals REMAIN the same!
Sometimes it appears that one needs to repeat and repeat and repeat before you guys get a simple issue because you have bought into a propaganda that has STUCK into your heads no matter what.
Empiree, do you now get it?
Another scenario is the books of the old testaments which we heard were written by Moses
In Deuteronomy 34
verse 7 reads...... Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. verse 8 reads.......The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over. verse 10 reads.....Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face verse 12 reads..... For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.
How could Moses have written all these about himself? Obviously, someone else (anonymous) must have written these books and called them the book of Moses
Crucifixion is entirely a Christian Configuration and Life. It's a bewilderment to others than Christians that The LordGod, Creator of Heaven and Earth, was captured, like a common rat, crucified, dead and buried. That is The Real Stuff called Christianity. Islam's inability and or withdrawal to freguently and frivolously indulge in explaining The Crucifixion of Anobi Isa is born out of Respect for The Son of The Holy Spirit and of Righteousness.
Another scenario is the books of the old testaments which we heard were written by Moses
In Deuteronomy 34
verse 7 reads...... Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. verse 8 reads.......The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over. verse 10 reads.....Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face verse 12 reads..... For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.
How could Moses have written all these about himself? Obviously, someone else (anonymous) must have written these books and called them the book of Moses
Book of Moses doesn't mean Moses wrote everything in it. Moses had scribes who helped him to write.
The Qur'an is supposed to be the book of Allah, yet there was not even one Aya that was written by Allah himself. Mohammed himself never saw the Qur'an: did he?
orisa37: Crucifixion is entirely a Christian Configuration and Life. It's a bewilderment to others than Christians that The LordGod, Creator of Heaven and Earth, was captured, like a common rat, crucified, dead and buried. That is The Real Stuff called Christianity. Islam's inability and or withdrawal to freguently and frivolously indulge in explaining The Crucifixion of Anobi Isa is born out of Respect for The Son of The Holy Spirit and of Righteousness.
It doesn't surprise me one bit that you can't understand the depth of God's love to do the unthinkable in order to save those who would trust in Him.
1Jn 3:16 : "By this we know the love of God. Because he laid down his life for us, therefore we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."
1John4:16 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
You've said it all! True Christians aren't out for challenging others for any reason, we only make simple presentations and whoever finds delight0 in our message will ask for more. I only explain one symbol 'FATHER ABRAHAM'{God} but for the sake of WISDOM{Luke 7:35} i'll explain just one more symbol! LAZARUS! ¤Lazarus means the common Jews of Jesus' days, they are like spiritual BEGGARS in the sense that they often go for spirituals food in the hands of their spiritual leaders{Pharisees} who just feed them with whatever they quote/unquote for their own personal benefits. John 9:22,34 compared to Matthew 23:23-24 The SORES in his legs represents several bondage the people have experienced in the hands of pagan nations as God often abandon them to be punished by those pagans when they err. The DOGS{Matthew 15:21-28} represents those pagan nations like Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Rome e.t.c using the opportunity to claim taxes and other dues from God's own people. Lasarus's death means a change in condition,which happened at the presence of the Messiah{Jesus} as himself and his forerunner John the baptists condemned all those religious leaders and favoured the common people{Lazarus}. Matthew 3:7-10 compared to Luke 22 :30 Abraham's bosom connotes divine favour!
Notice how much different and complex your interpretation are compared to Jesus kind of interpretation.
It's more simpler than you are making it to be in defending your doctrines twisting the plane word of God.
Jesus gave several parables in the gospels, can you find one parable where He called actors of the parables by name?
Please check out this and explain: Rev 6:9-11: "And when he opened the fifth seal I saw under the altar the souls of them who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they had borne. And they cried with a loud voice, saying , “How long, O sovereign, the holy one and the true, dost thou defer judging and avenging our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” And to every of them were given white robes and they were told that they should rest yet a little while till their fellow servants and their brethren who were about to be slain as well as they were completed."
This is a parable too? Luk 20:36-38: "For they can die no more. For angel-like they are indeed children of God, being children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised up, even Moses hath plainly shewn; as at the bush he stileth the Lord, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaak, and the God of Jacob. For he is not the God of the dead, but of the living. For to him they are all alive."
And Jesus became a trance in this scripture: ABI? Mat 17:1-9: "And after six days, Jesus taketh Peter, and James, and John, his brother, and bringeth them up privately to a high mountain, and was transfigured before them . His face shone like the sun: and his raiment became white as the light. And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias, conversing with him. Whereupon Peter, addressing Jesus, said, Master, it is well that we are here. if thou pleasest let us make here three booths, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he was yet speaking, behold! a bright cloud overshadowed them ; and lo! from the cloud, a voice, saying, This is my Son, the Beloved, in whom I am well pleased. Hear ye him. Upon hearing this the disciples fell on their face and were greatly affrighted. But Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, Be not afraid. And having lifted up their eyes they saw none but Jesus only. And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell no one what you have seen, until the son of man shall have risen from the dead."
If this is just a vision, the baptism not Jesus too must be a vision!
Until you understand that man is a Trinity, you will stay in your ignorance!
I spoke about Deliverance of the two agents of yours you would send to me, so here is a taste of what they are to expect.
Notice how much different and complex your interpretation are compared to Jesus kind of interpretation. It's more simpler than you are making it to be in defending your doctrines twisting the plane word of God. Compare with the scriptures quoted below
You need not bite more than what you can chew! I never presented this parable to you in the first place because our King Jesus wasn't directing the parable to the common Jews in his days {who are not fast in grabbing spiritual things} he was actually directing it to the Pharisees[Luke 16:14] who knew the scriptures inside out but were selfish and only interested in their POSITIONS! John 11:48 Whatever parable Jesus speaks was never difficult for the Pharisees to grasp[ Matthew 21:45] but they were agitating because Jesus and his forerunner John the Baptist condemned all their works! Matthew 3:7-10 compared to Matthew 23:1-8 So it's the common and HUMBLE people like his followers that Jesus often explains his many complex parables to NOT the Pharisees who are vast in knowledge! Matthew 13:10-11,18 Today the holy spirit has opened the seal of all the sacred secrets and parables written both in the Hebrew~Aramaic scriptures{Old Testament} and in the Christian Greek Scriptures{New Testament} to TRUE Christians{Daniel 12:8-10} so it's only to those that humbly ask for the interpretations that we must explain everything! As for those who feels they already knew what the WORD says, we must leave them and go in search for the lost sheep of the house of Israel! Matthew 10:6, 15:24 However there are some of those sheep mixed up in false religions claiming Christians {Act 18:24-26}so we try to hint them with few presentations and if they're able to recognise the voice of the SHEPHERD in our presentations{John 10:27} we must teach them all the things he commanded us! Matthew 28:20
It doesn't surprise me one bit that you can't understand the depth of God's love to do the unthinkable in order to save those who would trust in Him.
1Jn 3:16 : "By this we know the love of God. Because he laid down his life for us, therefore we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."
1John4:16 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
Maximus69: You need not bite more than what you can chew! I never presented this parable to you in the first place because our King Jesus wasn't directing the parable to the common Jews in his days {who are not fast in grabbing spiritual things} he was actually directing it to the Pharisees[Luke 16:14] who knew the scriptures inside out but were selfish and only interested in their POSITIONS! John 11:48 Whatever parable Jesus speaks was never difficult for the Pharisees to grasp[ Matthew 21:45] but they were agitating because Jesus and his forerunner John the Baptist condemned all their works! Matthew 3:7-10 compared to Matthew 23:1-8 So it's the common and HUMBLE people like his followers that Jesus often explains his many complex parables to NOT the Pharisees who are vast in knowledge! Matthew 13:10-11,18 Today the holy spirit has opened the seal of all the sacred secrets and parables written both in the Hebrew~Aramaic scriptures{Old Testament} and in the Christian Greek Scriptures{New Testament} to TRUE Christians{Daniel 12:8-10} so it's only to those that humbly ask for the interpretations that we must explain everything! As for those who feels they already knew what the WORD says, we must leave them and go in search for the lost sheep of the house of Israel! Matthew 10:6, 15:24 However there are some of those sheep mixed up in false religions claiming Christians {Act 18:24-26}so we try to hint them with few presentations and if they're able to recognise the voice of the SHEPHERD in our presentations{John 10:27} we must teach them all the things he commanded us! Matthew 28:20
Check the bolded. I perceive you mean the Watch Tower Organisation. The organisation has built a systematic system of discipleship of which I think you are a product. I wish most Christian organisation have an equivalent systematic discipleship schedule.
Even though I completely disagree with your interpretation because unlike the Sadducees, the Pharisees believed in resurrection of the dead and punishment for evil done on earth by man. Also, even though you didn't respond to the scriptures above,knowing the way JW reason, we would just go about quoting scriptures up and down.
To this end, I will ask a simple question and the rest of what I will say depend on these two Questions
1. Do you think it is impossible for the Watchtower Organisation to make any Doctrinal Error? 2. What would you do, if you found out, that what the Watchtower teaches is not what the bible teaches? Who would you obey? Jehovah God or the Watchtower?
I understand that the Qur'an said so AND it directly contradicts what the Bible says. Hence for someone whose first knowledge is the Bible, shouldn't he ask relevant questions from Muslims?
One of the simplest question is Can you explain How Jesus was taken to heaven: Was it secretly or in the presence of some of the disciples?
Christians have details of how Christ was taken to heaven: it shouldn't be difficult finding out what the Islamic version says.
Check the bolded. I perceive you mean the Watch Tower Organisation. The organisation has built a systematic system of discipleship of which I think you are a product. I wish most Christian organisation have an equivalent systematic discipleship schedule.
Even though I completely disagree with your interpretation because unlike the Sadducees, the Pharisees believed in resurrection of the dead and punishment for evil done on earth by man. Also, even though you didn't respond to the scriptures above,knowing the way JW reason, we would just go about quoting scriptures up and down.
To this end, I will ask a simple question and the rest of what I will say depend on these two Questions
1. Do you think it is impossible for the Watchtower Organisation to make any Doctrinal Error? 2. What would you do, if you found out, that what the Watchtower teaches is not what the bible teaches? Who would you obey? Jehovah God or the Watchtower?
Simple direct answers will do. Thanks!
Hmmm, you perceived! Well if you haven't PERCEIVED any uniqueness in our discussion, please let's save ourselves the stress! Farewell!
Maximus69: Hmmm, you perceived! Well if you haven't PERCEIVED any uniqueness in our discussion, please let's save ourselves the stress! Farewell!
I guess you know a noose is coming all the way from me to you.
1. Do you think it is impossible for the Watchtower Organisation to make any Doctrinal Error? 2. What would you do, if you found out, that what the Watchtower teaches is not what the bible teaches? Who would you obey? Jehovah God or the Watchtower?
Any Christian can answer the questions if there is nothing they are hiding feom
I guess you know a noose is coming all the way from me to you.
1. Do you think it is impossible for the Watchtower Organisation to make any Doctrinal Error? 2. What would you do, if you found out, that what the Watchtower teaches is not what the bible teaches? Who would you obey? Jehovah God or the Watchtower?
Any Christian can answer the questions if there is nothing they are hiding feom
Let me just remind you what i said earlier! True Christians aren't ready for arguments [1Timothy 6:4, Phlippians 2:14 Colossians 2:4 Titus 3:9] if you haven't heard what is appealing in a few presentation, Jesus' command is for us to take our leave! Matthew 10:11-15 So you need not worry Sir, if you've known CHRISTIANS that can answer your question, just ask them and suit yourself with their response Sir! God bless you!
Maximus69: Let me just remind you what i said earlier! True Christians aren't ready for arguments [1Timothy 6:4, Phlippians 2:14 Colossians 2:4 Titus 3:9] if you haven't heard what is appealing in a few presentation, Jesus' command is for us to take our leave! Matthew 10:11-15 So you need not worry Sir, if you've known CHRISTIANS that can answer your question, just ask them and suit yourself with their response Sir! God bless you!
It doesn't change anything.
I believe you have read this before: .. having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof..
You go throughout the world looking for a proselyte whom you make several times a candidate of hell...
My problem with you is your delusion so strong that the demon takes lots of prayers and fasting to pull out. I forgot, the Watchtower Organisation doesn't believe demons exist nowadays.
Reconcile your theory of scriptures with practical and your eyes will open. Do you know why you took off with my post?
Because I mentioned the name of your real god! How dare a mortal man Question the Watchtower Organisation. They can't fall into errors unlike other Christian organizations
I believe you have read this before: .. having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof..
You go throughout the world looking for a proselyte whom you make several times a candidate of hell...
My problem with you is your delusion so strong that the demon takes lots of prayers and fasting to pull out. I forgot, the Watchtower Organisation doesn't believe demons exist nowadays.
Reconcile your theory of scriptures with practical and your eyes will open. Do you know why you took off with my post?
Because I mentioned the name of your real god! How dare a mortal man Question the Watchtower Organisation. They can fall into errors.
Thanks Sir, may you have the peace of God abundantly,God bless you!
The Knowledge of God is Eternal Life, John 17 vs 3 said so.
How come some group gather and seems to know God more than you while you can equally find God for yourself. It's the Beauty of the Kingdom
The Disciples came to report to Jesus of some set of Beleivers that did not stay under Jesus but still uses the name of Jesus. He said to them, Leave them. They are part of us.
The Watch Tower is standing to dictate the Knowledge of God which is suppose to be a personal thing for everybody, thereby breeding Robots.
Paul was not part of the 12 and yet received more depth beacause John 17 vs 3 was a reality.
Clowning Believers Spiritually is a Great Sin. A ministry devoid of the Resurrection power of Jesus and pretending on Doctrinal base.
Seek Jesus yourself and verify every content of edification till you are sure you are on the right path.
Maximus69: Let me just remind you what i said earlier! True Christians aren't ready for arguments [1Timothy 6:4, Phlippians 2:14 Colossians 2:4 Titus 3:9] if you haven't heard what is appealing in a few presentation, Jesus' command is for us to take our leave! Matthew 10:11-15 So you need not worry Sir, if you've known CHRISTIANS that can answer your question, just ask them and suit yourself with their response Sir! God bless you!
Stop running away when boxed in a corner. You truly know that engaging Shadeyinka would expose the Watchtower organization which you hold in high-esteem as perfect, so you decided to run away.
@bold, Christians don't run away from questions and arguments. Paul was always engaging the in debates in the synagogue and everywhere he went. But to JW, the moment GB is questioned, they blocked their ears and eyes from seeing the multitude of their lies and how they have usurped the Holy Spirit.
Stop running away when boxed in a corner. You truly know that engaging Shadeyinka would expose the Watchtower organization which you hold in high-esteem as perfect, so you decided to run away.
@bold, Christians don't run away from questions and arguments. Paul was always engaging the in debates in the synagogue and everywhere he went. But to JW, the moment GB is questioned, they blocked their ears and eyes from seeing the multitude of their lies and how they have usurped the Holy Spirit.
It's like you're talking from both side of the mouth, but let me remind you why i won't engage you in any further discuss. It is you and not someone else who asked me to 'carry my STUPID JW doctrine comot' So what else do you now want from the so called STUPID doctrines?
Maximus69: It's like you're talking from both side of the mouth, but let me remind you why i won't engage you in any further discuss. It is you and not someone else who asked me to 'carry my STUPID JW doctrine comot' So what else do you now want from the so called STUPID doctrines?
I don't need your doctrines, I simply want you to engage Shadeyinka. Or was he the one that said you should COMOT?
You mean you escaped from the scrutiny of the Watch Tower Organisation. I was just about showing that they fail miserably in the light of the scriptures and to make you see that your eternity should not be on Watch Towers interpretation but on what you can see in the harmony of the scriptures.
You mean you escaped from the scrutiny of the Watch Tower Organisation. I was just about showing that they fail miserably in the light of the scriptures and to make you see that your eternity should not be on Watch Towers interpretation but on what you can see in the harmony of the scriptures.
Every time someone tries to show him, he runs away.
You mean you escaped from the scrutiny of the Watch Tower Organisation. I was just about showing that they fail miserably in the light of the scriptures and to make you see that your eternity should not be on Watch Towers interpretation but on what you can see in the harmony of the scriptures.
Thanks Sir, God bless you abundantly! Your thread is about MUSLIMS and CRUCIFIXION but i came in with something not pertaining to the topic of discuss and if you can't notice anything unique in what i've presented, it better we save ourselves the stress so that you can continue on the TOPIC of discuss with your Muslim friends!
