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Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith - Religion (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by aadoiza: 8:42pm On Feb 12
The OP kept banging the word 'scholars' in my big ears, now my simple questions: 1. who are these scholars(names)? What faith(s) do they profess?
Your answers will determine my approach to your epistle.
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by Inteltower: 8:49pm On Feb 12
FOLYKAZE:
The christian faith is centred on gospel of Jesus and Jewish history as narrated in the bible. The account of Jesus's life and all his theological teachings stem directly from the Genesis creation narrative, Noah flood, Israelite exodus, and Babylonia exile down to the birth of the so called messiah. But since it is found that many of the accounts have no basis in history, how come Christians still hold onto their faith? In the face of reality, vividly exposing that the accounts and narratives from Genesis till the end is fiction, and the characters captured in the entire bible are legends, on what exactly are Christians rooting their faith? Are Christians really trusting on folktales to bring them heaven/paradise they hope for?

The bible accounts, as interesting as it sound have no single basis in history. The creation story, many churches have accepted that it is metaphoric or philosophical which shouldn't be taken as happening at a historic time or place. The catholic and many Christian denominations admitted that the story of Adam and Eve is more allegorical, specially designed for theological purposes, without any basis in history. The Noah and the global flooding account too have no basis in history. Up till this moment, not a single shred of evidence have been found to buttress there was any global flooding on this planet. The global flooding and ark narration have so many parallels which further exposes the mythical nature of the account, having no basis in history. Up till date, no single shred of evidence have been presented that Noah or his Ark existed.

One of the story I loved back then as a child is the Exodus. The account detail Israelis enslavement in Egypt, emancipation by Moses, sojourn through the wilderness and the military campaign that rounded up Canaan. Findings have shown that the whole Exodus is pure work of fiction, not having any fact. There is no Moses, Israelite were never in or enslaved in Egypt, Pharaoh and his people were not plagued by any Yahweh, the Red sea was not parted, the wildernesses sojourn have no basis in history, and Canaan was not overran by Israel military forces. Archaeological evidence revealed that all the accounts about Israel in the bible is myth.

The monarchy reign of David and Solomon in the United kingdom of Israel is all false. Archaeological findings expose that Israel is a small clan in Canaan, having no king. There is no evidence or traces of the Solomon temple. The captivity by Babylon is more reconstructions of facts though. However, the bible rather provides half truth laced with propaganda which makes the whole account unacceptable as historical fact.

The Jesus account is majorly work of fiction. While many would argue that there is a historical personality known as Jesus as recorded by Apostle Paul, Gospels, and non Christian sources like Josephus and Tacitus, the fact remains that these are not eye witness account which can easily be dismissed. The earliest manuscript that recorded the person of Jesus is written somewhere around 60yrs after Jesus crucifixion. The gospel of Matthew, Luke and John all copied from accounts in the book of Mark. The authorship of the gospel of Mark is a subject if debate. However, the general consensus among the scholars is that whoever wrote the gospel of Mark is not providing an eye witness account but simply relaying heavily distorted traditions.

The Zombies invasion and the wingless ascension of Jesus is a popular incidence which would supposedly be witnessed by many people, but no one expect in the gospels wrote about it. Josephus and Tacitus mentioned that a person called Jesus or Christ but left out the major events recorded in the gospel. Josephus original writings has not been found, and scholars argued that the word 'Jesus' found in the Testimonium Flavianum is Christian interpolation. Tacitus was born 25yrs after the death of Jesus. None of this writings provided an eye witness account. They are majorly tradition with no factual basis.

The gospels have loads of inconsistency and contradictions. Apostle Paul admitted he learned the creed. As a matter of fact, Paul's sister and nephew were converted Christians before he converted. He also confessed he met with James and Peter for days, many years after his conversion. So it is nothing new, Paul converted base on tradition he was told to.

At a point, Paul questioned the basis of his faith, exactly what I wanted Christians to do. Apostle Paul, who didn't met Jesus or witnessed his death queried if Jesus truly died and resurrected. He questioned the historicity of Jesus crucifixion, noting with doubt that his faith and missionary job is in vain if peradventure there is no Jesus that died and resurrected. The inquiry furthermore buttressed that Paul only knew the traditional story of Jesus, and not the historical fact. Reason he added that one should find and stick to truth only.

My questions to my brothers who are Christians, how do you keep onto faith knowing that all the narration recorded in the bible have no basis in history? Where exactly is the confidence of hope drawn from knowing that the Bible stories are fables having no substances in history? How can you strongly trust that a Jesus who never exist as accounted would take you to heaven/paradise? What is the basis of your faith; historical fairies or historical facts?

Cc shadeyinka, EMILO2STAY, Maximus69, MuttleyLaff

"sometimes ignorance is a fools paradise & and assumption a dark room" - Daniel Mcgie

"there are 3 types of knowledge ranked from the least to the best namely; 1) Assumption 2) Fact 3) Revelation, Revelation is truth & superior" - Rose Andrew

all I ask from you since rejecting Christ; thus rejecting God existence is that you please "save my mankind"

I guess your resolution from the trash you wrote was "mankind can't be saved"

food for thought (two of the many weaknesses in ur write up)

if Christ was imaginary why would Peter who loved his business of fishing abandon it the second time to go do instructions of preaching the Gospel ?
(was peter one of the disciples of Christ also imaginary ?)

So in jewish history there was never Pontus Pilate, Pharisees, john the Baptist, Nicodemus, mary etc ?
(because if you removing Christ out of the picture u will remove other personalities, places & prophecies in play during his time)

ur point is we shouldn't believe the Bible but ignorantly believe history & arechological findings generated by men.

wow I don't know ur mission here but be careful
ur ignorance reeks

1 Like

Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by budaatum: 8:52pm On Feb 12
BeLookingIDIOT:

That something is popular doesn't make it the truth.Do we still have to argue that undecided
No one said popularity means it's true. And I don't argue, I discuss. But only with those capable of comprehension, and definitely not with those who can't read and comprehend.

So, could you start by explaining to me what you consider untrue about the subject at hand, with specific reference to what you responded to in my statements if you may.

1 Like

Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by Inteltower: 8:54pm On Feb 12
aadoiza:
The OP kept banging the word 'scholars' in my big ears, now my simple questions: 1. who are these scholars(names)? What faith(s) do they profess?
Your answers will determine my approach to your epistle.


thank u for this

self deceit is the worst kind of deceit

he is implying the Bible is made up by men but referring us to men that generated those contrary findings.
his ignorance is appalling

1 Like

Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by aadoiza: 9:05pm On Feb 12
Inteltower:


thank u for this

self deceit is the worst kind of deceit

he is implying the Bible is made up by men but referring us to men that generated those contrary findings.
his ignorance is appalling
You're hinting him already, mate.
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by FOLYKAZE(m): 11:23pm On Feb 12
aadoiza:
The OP kept banging the word 'scholars' in my big ears, now my simple questions: 1. who are these scholars(names)? What faith(s) do they profess?
Your answers will determine my approach to your epistle.


You are either too lazy by not taking your time to make a simple Google search on 'historicity of Exodus' or you are dumb from not seeing that the OP is focusing on more than one account, not relying on one academian submission, and may not list out the names of the scholars as they are too many.

The OP covers creation story, Noah global flood, exodus, babylon captivity and exile. Even on the Exodus alone, I can list tons of scholar who deducted the narrative is fable.

1. Israel Finkelstein : He is an Israeli archaeologist. A Professor of the Archaeology of Israel in the Bronze and Iron Ages at Tel Aviv University . He is active in the archaeology of the Levant and an applicant of archaeological data in reconstructing biblical history. He told The Jerusalem Post that Jewish archaeologists have found no historical or archaeological evidence to back the biblical narrative of the Exodus, the Jews' wandering in Sinai or Joshua's conquest of Canaan . On the alleged Temple of Solomon , Prof Israel said that there is no archaeological evidence to prove it really existed.

2. Zahi Hawass is an Egyptian archaeologist , Egyptologist , and former Minister of State for Antiquities Affairs. He worked at archaeological sites in the Nile Delta, the Western Desert , and the Upper Nile Valley. He wrote on his findings regarding Exodus of Israelite from Egypt: Really, it's a myth [...] This is my career as an archaeologist. I should tell them the truth. If the people are upset, that is not my problem.


3. Prof. Ze'ev Herzog He is an Israeli archeologist, professor of archaeology at The Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University. Base on the summary of his work, he wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:
"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai."

I have provided at names of at least three scholars, their field of expertise and summary of their works. You don't like their job and findings, that is your headache.

Can we now deal with the issue at hand?

2 Likes

Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by FOLYKAZE(m): 11:58pm On Feb 12
Inteltower:


"sometimes ignorance is a fools paradise & and assumption a dark room" - Daniel Mcgie

Really pathetic. Do you understand the quotation above? If there is a ignoramus on this thread, it is probably you.

It isn't in the nature of good Christians to fire insults when their faith is been questioned.

The bible, explicitly dictates that "And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient, correcting opponents with gentleness..." (2 Timothy 24-25).

If you have been reading your bible and follow it to the last letter, you should have seen 1 peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Look at the emboldened clearly. It says "every man that ask you a reason of the the hope in you". The OP is simply asking for the basis, reason for your faith, confidence and hope.

It added, answer with meek and fear/respect... You are answering with insult, more like a rascal.


Now look at the people I mentioned in the OP. MuttleyLaff, EMILO2STAY, shadeyinka and maximus69. Check their posts on this thread and other threads....even when they don't agree with other views, they address the person with ultimate respect. Did you notice we call ourselves Brother, friend, darling and all sort of kindly addresses. These are the crop of christians I associate with... Not scallywags like you.

If you are a representation of Christianity, you would have lost follower today with your bad manners.

Inteltower:

"there are 3 types of knowledge ranked from the least to the best namely; 1) Assumption 2) Fact 3) Revelation, Revelation is truth & superior" - Rose Andrew

How does this nonsense address the OP?

Inteltower:

all I ask from you since rejecting Christ; thus rejecting God existence is that you please "save my mankind"

I guess your resolution from the trash you wrote was "mankind can't be saved"

Your reasoning is poor. Your Christ and religion have not save mankind. But that isn't the topic now. We are discussing about the Bible account, the reliability of the account, and justification of your faith.

Inteltower:

food for thought (two of the many weaknesses in ur write up)

if Christ was imaginary why would Peter who loved his business of fishing abandon it the second time to go do instructions of preaching the Gospel ?
(was peter one of the disciples of Christ also imaginary ?)

You are taking it as a job, to prove me wrong that Jesus exist but hey, you are yearning opata. Just prove he existed. Peter too does not exist. The zombies that resurrected are fictions. If you have contrary views, present it.

Inteltower:

So in jewish history there was never Pontus Pilate, Pharisees, john the Baptist, Nicodemus, mary etc ?
(because if you removing Christ out of the picture u will remove other personalities, places & prophecies in play during his time)

Excuse me. That Mount Everest exist in reality doesn't mean Yeti is real or that he lives on top of the mount.

Just prove that Jesus existed and let deal with your submission.

Inteltower:

ur point is we shouldn't believe the Bible but ignorantly believe history & arechological findings generated by men.

wow I don't know ur mission here but be careful
ur ignorance reeks

I will respond with these two bible verses

“The naive or inexperienced person[is easily misled and believes every word he hears, but the prudent man is discreet and astute.” (Proverbs 14:15)
The Christian apostle Paul wrote: "Test everything that is said to be sure it is true, and if it is, then accept it." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)


All in all, you've said nothing. I hope your next response will be better, matured and reasonable.

2 Likes

Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by FOLYKAZE(m): 12:00am On Feb 13
shadeyinka:

No one is stopping you from Living your life the way you want with your evidence!

Is it really my evidence? Nope it isn't. It is just a fact and acceptable.

"Test everything that is said to be sure it is true, and if it is, then accept it." (1 Thessalonians 5:21, Living Bible)
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by MuttleyLaff: 4:58am On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:
Olodumare does not interfere in human activities and realities.
Thats your widely held but false belief that Olodumare does not "interfere" in human activities and realities. It is a myth to think that Olodumare is a retired or absentee Landlord, lol, who doesn't "interfere" in His tenants', human activities and realities.

Let's use your home as a case study. Yes, the house you built from the sweats of your brow, hard labour and money, since after giving out from this house rooms to your sons/daughters, do you totally not "interfere" in the activities and realities going on in the house and rooms? Just because you've given out the rooms to your sons/daughters are you incurious, distant, disinterested, separate and/or disconnected to the activities and realities going on in the rooms, hmm?

FOLYKAZE:
Can you quite red herring pls?
I am not red herring my dear friend, I am showing you the relatedness between Olodumare and Jesus Christ. Sebi, you said you want to know more, lol, about God ni? Have you yet figured that, Jesus Christ is the mask of Olodumare, hmm, lol?

FOLYKAZE:
Let us focus on Jesus and the bible.
Are you sure I havent focused on Jesus and the bible, hmm, lol? Is Jesus not the manifestation of Olodumare, also known as Ọlọrun, ni, lol?

FOLYKAZE:
I visited the church, I told you. And the pastor subtly sent me out. Asked me to stop asking questions in his church and directed me to have encounter with God in my house. I have been going to church since 4 months now.....but hey, it blows my head, can't swallow the dogmatism been reeled out there.
Dogmatism comes with the territory, lol. Welcome to the real world

FOLYKAZE:
I am doing what the pastor asked me. 1Thessalonians 5:21 says one should dig deep and find the truth. I dug and found the account myth.
FOLYKAZE, two verses before 1 Thessalonians 5:21, advises not to stifle the Holy Spirit. There is no way, anyone without the Holy Spirit, to throw, cast or shed light on state of affairs, will be able correctly handle the word of truth or be able to rightly divide the word of truth. You will struggle against the forces of evil and succumb to it, if/when the Holy Spirit is stifled. When short of the Holy Spirit, you will fumble in getting right understanding, as you dig, searching and looking to find objective truth, lol.
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by MuttleyLaff: 4:58am On Feb 13
shadeyinka:
You set up a grub of lies based upon the truth and you expect me to correct a pathological liar's script!?
God forbid. You can choose whatever you want to believe. Some people even believe that the earth is flat. My argument changes nothing.

Therefore, my strength is for more productive and sincere discuss.

FOLYKAZE:
Did I say I was right? Nope.
You're playing the devil's advocate, lol.

FOLYKAZE:
I found some substantial evidence that exposes the bible accounts as myth. It is your duty to present evidence that the account in the bible is reality.
Déjà vu. Its just the same way Eve, found some substantial evidence that she thought exposes the bible accounts and/or expressed command, as myth, lol.

No one owes you any duty to present evidence that the account in the bible is reality. You either believe it or you dont. There is no wiggle room, my dear friend
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by shadeyinka(m): 6:29am On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:


Is it really my evidence? Nope it isn't. It is just a fact and acceptable.

"Test everything that is said to be sure it is true, and if it is, then accept it." (1 Thessalonians 5:21, Living Bible)
The scripture quoted is true and cannot be broken. The instruction is to Christians as individuals. It has been tested and proven reliable and dependable by true Christians. Your rants are noise, like some people were arguing that HIV and AIDS is a scam.

To you outside, it's a pity. And like your father, so you are

Mat 4:6:
"And said to him, If you be the Son of God, cast yourself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning you: and in their hands they shall bear you up, lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone."

You seem to have learnt well from him
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by MuttleyLaff: 9:11am On Feb 13
Double post
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by MuttleyLaff: 9:15am On Feb 13
Double post
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by MuttleyLaff: 9:16am On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:
Really pathetic. Do you understand the quotation above? If there is a ignoramus on this thread, it is probably you.

It isn't in the nature of good Christians to fire insults when their faith is been questioned.

The bible, explicitly dictates that "And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient, correcting opponents with gentleness..." (2 Timothy 24-25).

If you have been reading your bible and follow it to the last letter, you should have seen 1 peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Look at the emboldened clearly. It says "every man that ask you a reason of the the hope in you". The OP is simply asking for the basis, reason for your faith, confidence and hope.

It added, answer with meek and fear/respect... You are answering with insult, more like a rascal.


Now look at the people I mentioned in the OP. MuttleyLaff, EMILO2STAY, shadeyinka and maximus69. Check their posts on this thread and other threads....even when they don't agree with other views, they address the person with ultimate respect. Did you notice we call ourselves Brother, friend, darling and all sort of kindly addresses. These are the crop of christians I associate with... Not scallywags like you.

If you are a representation of Christianity, you would have lost follower today with your bad manners.
C'mon now FOLYKAZE, you out of all people should by now, know that when the Bible in Psalms 14:1 or Psalms 53:1 says: "The fool says in his heart “There is no God." or any believer uses ignorance/fool on you, it isnt necessarily used to insult you, rather it simply is just a mere case of a statement of fact. What the Bible, and/or Inteltower are implying is you are making, concluding and taking to wrong decisions based on unsound judgement.

Being called a fool isnt necessarily an insult FOLYKAZE. It actually in many instances, is a statement of fact, when particularly where, it means taking wrong decisions, mean deliberating or contemplating unwise actions.

Take for example, it will be unwise (i.e. foolish) to, without looking left right and left again, cross a busy fast moving dual carriage highway road. It is only an ignoramus person, who out of ignorance will ignore a pedestrian overhead walkway bridge and attempt playing chicken walk cross a multi-lane motorway.

So next time, anyone calls you a fool, say you're an ignoranus, ignoramus or you're ignorant in relation to discussions about faith in God, existence of Jesus Christ, the historicity and/or truthfulness of the Bible etcetera, dont take it to heart too much, and/or be that much affected by it to the extent of getting/feeling offended, because is never the intention, rather it is an observational statement, lol. Of course, you know the popular saying: "sticks and stones may break my bones but words, will never hurt me" so my dear friend, I'll advise, grow a thick skin. I thought you can withstand heat, which is why you stepped into the kitchen, where sizzling uncomfortably hot steamy, saucy and spicy food and meat is being cooked

FOLYKAZE:
How does this nonsense address the OP?
You see you havent the revelation yet, that is why you arrived at typing: "How does this nonsense address the OP?"

FOLYKAZE:
Your reasoning is poor. Your Christ and religion have not save mankind. But that isn't the topic now. We are discussing about the Bible account, the reliability of the account, and justification of your faith.

You are taking it as a job, to prove me wrong that Jesus exist but hey, you are yearning opata. Just prove he existed. Peter too does not exist. The zombies that resurrected are fictions. If you have contrary views, present it.

Excuse me. That Mount Everest exist in reality doesn't mean Yeti is real or that he lives on top of the mount.
FOLYKAZE, smh, I think you're deliberating feigning ignorance here or you actually typed and made that above emboldened remark out of naviety/inexperience.
1/ What does the name Jesus, to your understanding mean?
2/ What about the appellation, Christ, what to your understanding do it mean?

FOLYKAZE:
Just prove that Jesus existed and let deal with your submission.
If you are able to show where in the Bible, Jesus commanded that believers should go out to prove to others that He, Jesus existed, then trust me FOLYKAZE, everyone will fall over each other and come running here to prove to you that Jesus existed. If you are not satisfied with the strength of the words in that book called the Bible, well then my friend, tough, lol. Dbanj, will even say it better than me, with: you're on a long ting, lol.

FOLYKAZE:
I will respond with these two bible verses

“The naive or inexperienced person [is easily misled and believes every word he hears, but the prudent man is discreet and astute.” (Proverbs 14:15)
The Christian apostle Paul wrote: "Test everything that is said to be sure it is true, and if it is, then accept it." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

All in all, you've said nothing. I hope your next response will be better, matured and reasonable.
FOLYKAZE, please give your star and favourite scripture 1 Thessalonians 5:21 a rest. You cant be reading 1 Thessalonians 5:21 in isolation of the next verse after it and even without the two verses preceding it now, lol. I have already previous to now brought your attention to this, so go find another scriptural reference to use for artillery, lol.

That Proverbs 14:15, is actually referring to someone who doesnt know what they are talking about or discussing and so naively sees Bible narratives, content etcetera as myths based on or influenced by their personal feelings, takes, tastes and biased opinions, lol
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by FOLYKAZE(m): 9:34am On Feb 13
shadeyinka:

The scripture quoted is true and cannot be broken. The instruction is to Christians as individuals. It has been tested and proven reliable and dependable by true Christians. Your rants are noise, like some people were arguing that HIV and AIDS is a scam.

You are telling us you have tested and proven reliable and dependable the account of Jesus, Genesis, Noah flood and Moses Exodus. What you haven't tell us, and supposedly what I want you to tell us is HOW you carried out this your findings and the method you used. It is after this I can conclude if what you found is truly the truth. All this rambling and directionless attack isn't important and won't achieve anything.

I or anyone wouldn't argue against HIV/AIDS virus because overwhelming evidence to prove it exist. HIV/AIDS is not the subjective work of one person. Many people made their own different research objectively and found the virus is truly out there. But the case is not with Jesus or any stories in the bible.

History and archaeological findings oppose your submission on Jesus's account. History isn't on your side. Archaeological findings are not on your side. We are having limited support, writings from people who lived in the days of Christ. That tells Jesus didnt exist or just maybe, he exist but the Bible account was exaggerated.

But here we are, claiming you and other Christians have found the truth, facts and evidences that Jesus existed in historic time and place. By telling us this, you are putting on a duty, to prove that your findings is truth, reality and fact as you proclaim.

shadeyinka:

To you outside, it's a pity. And like your father, so you are

Mat 4:6:
"And said to him, If you be the Son of God, cast yourself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning you: and in their hands they shall bear you up, lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone."

You seem to have learnt well from him

You always quote the bible out of context. Attacking me serve only one purpose, it reveals your fear, that the whole years, trusting and having strong confidence on a figure which turned out to be fable can become painful. I know it hurts and understand the fear/pain. But see hey, it isn't about me.

It is more about Apostle Paul fear. It is more about your own fear. And the fear of many Christians out there. 1 Corinthian 15:14 professes that if Jesus didn't die, and if Jesus didn't resurrect, that faith of Paul, you and all the Christians are in VAIN. There your fear laid.

I also understand that faith as defined by is simply a hope without evidence. That is how Heb 11:1 put it. I understand you and MuttleyLaff and other Christians seek not the evidence if Jesus truly existed, but blindly hope that the person that didn't exist in time and space would appear in the future and take you away. That is the pain, that is the lane of illusion of hope, hopelessness. Do I want to remove the illusion of hope, Nah!

1 Like

Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by MuttleyLaff: 9:53am On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:
You always quote the bible out of context. Attacking me serve only one purpose, it reveals your fear, that the whole years, trusting and having strong confidence on a figure which turned out to be fable can become painful. I know it hurts and understand the fear/pain. But see hey, it isn't about me.
I would rather think, its actually you who has a strong and/or habitual liking for quoting the bible out of context, misunderstand whats in the Bible and then after go screaming that everything is fraud and a myth

FOLYKAZE:
It is more about Apostle Paul fear. It is more about your own fear. And the fear of many Christians out there. 1 Corinthian 15:14 professes that if Jesus didn't die, and if Jesus didn't redirect, that faith of Paul, you and all the Christians are in VAIN. There your fear laid.
"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
(i.e. but one of power and of love and of sound judgement and/or of wise discretion)
"
- 2 Timothy 1:7

FOLYKAZE, it seems you arent conversant with 2 Timothy 1:7 above, lol. No fear anywhere, no fear here.

FOLYKAZE:
I also understand that faith as defined by is simply a hope without evidence. That is how Heb 11:1 put it.
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not being seen."
- Hebrews 11:1

What did I just say about you, a few stops above, erhn? I spoke too soon, didnt I, as you just confirmed your strong and/or habitual liking for quoting the bible out of context and misunderstanding whats in the Bible, lol. Can you see how you turned Hebrews 11:1 upside down and laid it on its head, hmm?

FOLYKAZE:
I understand you and MuttleyLaff and other Christians seek not the evidence if Jesus truly existed, but blindly hope that the person that didn't exist in time and space would appear in the future and take you away. That is the pain, that is the lane of illusion of hope, hopelessness. Do I want to remove the illusion of hope, Nah!
You understand nada. You havent a clue what the meaning of the word understand is. You are a pretender to the throne. The evidences are out there, there is no blind faith thing going on that you deludingly make yourself believe in. Wait, have you heard of "calculated risk"? Bwahahaha, lol.

Why havent I yet see you end your remark(s) with a laugh nah? Why dont/didnt you laugh, and then lets wait to see who will have the last laugh, lol.
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by FOLYKAZE(m): 10:19am On Feb 13
MuttleyLaff:
Thats your widely held but false belief that Olodumare does not "interfere" in human activities and realities. It is a myth to think that Olodumare is a retired or absentee Landlord, lol, who doesn't "interfere" in His tenants', human activities and realities.

This is diversionary. Let me just deal with Olodumare and Isese topic for the last time. The thread isn't about Olodumare but Historicity of the bible and justification of christian faith.

The landlord and tenant relationship is wrong. Landlord and tenant are both human, person. Eledumare is impersonal. And there can never be interpersonal relationship between a person and impersonal being.

L
MuttleyLaff:
et's use your home as a case study. Yes, the house you built from the sweats of your brow, hard labour and money, since after giving out from this house rooms to your sons/daughters, do you totally not "interfere" in the activities and realities going on in the house and rooms? Just because you've given out the rooms to your sons/daughters are you incurious, distant, disinterested, separate and/or disconnected to the activities and realities going on in the rooms, hmm?

I would say, this shouldn't be the best analogy you can come up with. It doesn't capture the whole picture.

Think about my mansion. With many rooms designated for different functions. Dinning, living, guest, sitting, bar, toilet, bathroom, wifey room, kiddie rooms, playground, pool, garden, lawn court and library. Also keep in mind that a burrow hole in the corner, there are ants living their own world there. What they do, how they do it, when they do it and by whom it is done is not my business. I don't interfere in who take the role of their leadership. I don't see them praying to me or ask me to look beyond. We view the world different.

Same applies to Eledumare. A being who created the gigantic universe, and a possible multiverse, wouldn't care about what happen in the minute earth, which is like a dirt in the beach sand.

MuttleyLaff:
I am not red herring my dear friend, I am showing you the relatedness between Olodumare and Jesus Christ. Sebi, you said you want to know more, lol, about God ni? Have you yet figured that, Jesus Christ is the mask of Olodumare, hmm, lol?

Are you sure I havent focused on Jesus and the bible, hmm, lol? Is Jesus not the manifestation of Olodumare, also known as Ọlọrun, ni, lol?

Jesus is the son of Yahweh, the God of Israel. Yahweh is God of hills, not universe.

MuttleyLaff:
Dogmatism comes with the territory, lol. Welcome to the real world

It is bizarre. The world proclaim their is a figure, profess a hope of his return but cannot prove the figure exist. It is a drunk world I don't want to be part of.

MuttleyLaff:
FOLY, two verses before 1 Thessalonians 5:21, advises not to stifle the Holy Spirit. There is no way, anyone without the Holy Spirit, to throw, cast or shed light on state of affairs, will be able correctly handle the word of truth or be able to rightly divide the word of truth. You will struggle against the forces of evil and succumb to it, if/when the Holy Spirit is stifled. When short of the Holy Spirit, you will fumble in getting right understanding, as you dig, searching and looking to find objective truth, lol.

It is one step at a time.

No one queries an already proven fact.

Can we get on proving bible claim and ascertaining it is fact first?
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by shadeyinka(m): 10:20am On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:


You are telling us you have tested and proven reliable and dependable the account of Jesus, Genesis, Noah flood and Moses Exodus. What you haven't tell us, and supposedly what I want you to tell us is HOW you carried out this your findings and the method you used. It is after this I can conclude if what you found is truly the truth. All this rambling and directionless attack isn't important and won't achieve anything.

I or anyone wouldn't argue against HIV/AIDS virus because overwhelming evidence to prove it exist. HIV/AIDS is not the subjective work of one person. Many people made their own different research objectively and found the virus is truly out there. But the case is not with Jesus or any stories in the bible.

History and archaeological findings oppose your submission on Jesus's account. History isn't on your side. Archaeological findings are not on your side. We are having limited support, writings from people who lived in the days of Christ. That tells Jesus didnt exist or just maybe, he exist but the Bible account was exaggerated.

But here we are, claiming you and other Christians have found the truth, facts and evidences that Jesus existed in historic time and place. By telling us this, you are putting on a duty, to prove that your findings is truth, reality and fact as you proclaim.



You always quote the bible out of context. Attacking me serve only one purpose, it reveals your fear, that the whole years, trusting and having strong confidence on a figure which turned out to be fable can become painful. I know it hurts and understand the fear/pain. But see hey, it isn't about me.

It is more about Apostle Paul fear. It is more about your own fear. And the fear of many Christians out there. 1 Corinthian 15:14 professes that if Jesus didn't die, and if Jesus didn't resurrect, that faith of Paul, you and all the Christians are in VAIN. There your fear laid.

I also understand that faith as defined by is simply a hope without evidence. That is how Heb 11:1 put it. I understand you and MuttleyLaff and other Christians seek not the evidence if Jesus truly existed, but blindly hope that the person that didn't exist in time and space would appear in the future and take you away. That is the pain, that is the lane of illusion of hope, hopelessness. Do I want to remove the illusion of hope, Nah!

You overrate yourself!
Who are you that I have to waste my time doing the work of convincing!!??

I even refuse to correct you several errors within this latest post which to me is a reflection of your (spiritual) father's occupation.
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by MuttleyLaff: 11:08am On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:
This is diversionary. Let me just deal with Olodumare and Isese topic for the last time. The thread isn't about Olodumare but Historicity of the bible and justification of christian faith.
FOLYKAZE, you better grab a chair to sit on because you're going to get shocked by what I am about to type.
OK fyi, Olodumare is Jesus Christ. Jesus is the manifestation of Olodumare. That fact seems to have gone over your head when I first advanced you this info, lol.

FOLYKAZE:
The landlord and tenant relationship is wrong. Landlord and tenant are both human, person. Eledumare is impersonal. And there can never be interpersonal relationship between a person and impersonal being.
The Landlord tenant was carefully chosen and well thought out selected. I am not talking of interpersonal relationship of Landlord with the tenants, but rather was talking of the lovingingly relationship between Landlord and his sons/daughters who are given rooms in his house/mansion

FOLYKAZE:
I would say, this shouldn't be the best analogy you can come up with. It doesn't capture the whole picture.

Think about my mansion. With many rooms designated for different functions. Dinning, living, guest, sitting, bar, toilet, bathroom, wifey room, kiddie rooms, playground, pool, garden, lawn court and library. Also keep in mind that a burrow hole in the corner, there are ants living their own world there. What they do, how they do it, when they do it and by whom it is done is not my business. I don't interfere in who take the role of their leadership. I don't see them praying to me or ask me to look beyond. We view the world different.

Same applies to Eledumare. A being who created the gigantic universe, and a possible multiverse, wouldn't care about what happen in the minute earth, which is like a dirt in the beach sand
By the grace and kindness of God, we have being blessed with houses we call our homes. Our kids have being allotted and given their own rooms in the houses. We don't care that much of invading spiders, occasional sights of insects, say mosquitoes, flies, ants, slugs, bugs, cockroahes, rats, birds, bees, wasps etcetera, but our kids, right from day one up to present, my missus and I often stick our necks round into their rooms, if just only to check and see the state of it. We don't interfere in the daily maintenance or use of the room, but if necessary will and voice out when things looks out of place, abused or misused. Sometimes, it's the kids who invite us into their rooms in order to sort things out for them, like to change a bulb or something. So my dear friend, the analogy is best suited to counter your assertion of no interference, lol

FOLYKAZE:
Jesus is the son of Yahweh, the God of Israel. Yahweh is God of hills, not universe.
Its a pity that's what and all you know.

FOLYKAZE:
It is bizarre. The world proclaim their is a figure, profess a hope of his return but cannot prove the figure exist. It is a drunk world I don't want to be part of.
No one is forcing you to.

FOLYKAZE:
It is one step at a time.
No one queries an already proven fact.
Unfortunately for you, it's too big a step for you to at the moment and with your frame of mind to take

FOLYKAZE:
Can we get on proving bible claim and ascertaining it is fact first?
The beauty of this discourse and one which gives me such pleasuring delight, is that no matter how this discourse swings, you will never ever, and thank God for that, ever have the last word, lol. What a relief.
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by FOLYKAZE(m): 2:11pm On Feb 13
shadeyinka:

You overrate yourself!
Who are you that I have to waste my time doing the work of convincing!!??

I even refuse to correct you several errors within this latest post which to me is a reflection of your (spiritual) father's occupation.

Shade is dancing all around like water lily. Enjoy your opium darling

1 Like

Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by dragunov: 2:18pm On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:
The christian faith is centred on gospel of Jesus and Jewish history as narrated in the bible. The account of Jesus's life and all his theological teachings stem directly from the Genesis creation narrative, Noah flood, Israelite exodus, and Babylonia exile down to the birth of the so called messiah. But since it is found that many of the accounts have no basis in history, how come Christians still hold onto their faith? In the face of reality, vividly exposing that the accounts and narratives from Genesis till the end is fiction, and the characters captured in the entire bible are legends, on what exactly are Christians rooting their faith? Are Christians really trusting on folktales to bring them heaven/paradise they hope for?

The bible accounts, as interesting as it sound have no single basis in history. The creation story, many churches have accepted that it is metaphoric or philosophical which shouldn't be taken as happening at a historic time or place. The catholic and many Christian denominations admitted that the story of Adam and Eve is more allegorical, specially designed for theological purposes, without any basis in history. The Noah and the global flooding account too have no basis in history. Up till this moment, not a single shred of evidence have been found to buttress there was any global flooding on this planet. The global flooding and ark narration have so many parallels which further exposes the mythical nature of the account, having no basis in history. Up till date, no single shred of evidence have been presented that Noah or his Ark existed.

One of the story I loved back then as a child is the Exodus. The account detail Israelis enslavement in Egypt, emancipation by Moses, sojourn through the wilderness and the military campaign that rounded up Canaan. Findings have shown that the whole Exodus is pure work of fiction, not having any fact. There is no Moses, Israelite were never in or enslaved in Egypt, Pharaoh and his people were not plagued by any Yahweh, the Red sea was not parted, the wildernesses sojourn have no basis in history, and Canaan was not overran by Israel military forces. Archaeological evidence revealed that all the accounts about Israel in the bible is myth.

The monarchy reign of David and Solomon in the United kingdom of Israel is all false. Archaeological findings expose that Israel is a small clan in Canaan, having no king. There is no evidence or traces of the Solomon temple. The captivity by Babylon is more reconstructions of facts though. However, the bible rather provides half truth laced with propaganda which makes the whole account unacceptable as historical fact.

The Jesus account is majorly work of fiction. While many would argue that there is a historical personality known as Jesus as recorded by Apostle Paul, Gospels, and non Christian sources like Josephus and Tacitus, the fact remains that these are not eye witness account which can easily be dismissed. The earliest manuscript that recorded the person of Jesus is written somewhere around 60yrs after Jesus crucifixion. The gospel of Matthew, Luke and John all copied from accounts in the book of Mark. The authorship of the gospel of Mark is a subject if debate. However, the general consensus among the scholars is that whoever wrote the gospel of Mark is not providing an eye witness account but simply relaying heavily distorted traditions.

The Zombies invasion and the wingless ascension of Jesus is a popular incidence which would supposedly be witnessed by many people, but no one expect in the gospels wrote about it. Josephus and Tacitus mentioned that a person called Jesus or Christ but left out the major events recorded in the gospel. Josephus original writings has not been found, and scholars argued that the word 'Jesus' found in the Testimonium Flavianum is Christian interpolation. Tacitus was born 25yrs after the death of Jesus. None of this writings provided an eye witness account. They are majorly tradition with no factual basis.

The gospels have loads of inconsistency and contradictions. Apostle Paul admitted he learned the creed. As a matter of fact, Paul's sister and nephew were converted Christians before he converted. He also confessed he met with James and Peter for days, many years after his conversion. So it is nothing new, Paul converted base on tradition he was told to.

At a point, Paul questioned the basis of his faith, exactly what I wanted Christians to do. Apostle Paul, who didn't met Jesus or witnessed his death queried if Jesus truly died and resurrected. He questioned the historicity of Jesus crucifixion, noting with doubt that his faith and missionary job is in vain if peradventure there is no Jesus that died and resurrected. The inquiry furthermore buttressed that Paul only knew the traditional story of Jesus, and not the historical fact. Reason he added that one should find and stick to truth only.

My questions to my brothers who are Christians, how do you keep onto faith knowing that all the narration recorded in the bible have no basis in history? Where exactly is the confidence of hope drawn from knowing that the Bible stories are fables having no substances in history? How can you strongly trust that a Jesus who never exist as accounted would take you to heaven/paradise? What is the basis of your faith; historical fairies or historical facts?

Cc shadeyinka, EMILO2STAY, Maximus69, MuttleyLaff

Oga folake, stop meddling in things you don't understand. All this your pseudo intellectualism amounts to nothing.
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by FOLYKAZE(m): 2:20pm On Feb 13
MuttleyLaff:

The Landlord tenant was carefully chosen and well thought out selected. I am not talking of interpersonal relationship of Landlord with the tenants, but rather was talking of the lovingingly relationship between Landlord and his sons/daughters who are given rooms in his house/mansion

By the grace and kindness of God, we have being blessed with houses we call our homes. Our kids have being allotted and given their own rooms in the houses. We don't care that much of invading spiders, occasional sights of insects, say mosquitoes, flies, ants, slugs, bugs, cockroahes, rats, birds, bees, wasps etcetera, but our kids, right from day one up to present, my missus and I often stick our necks round into their rooms, if just only to check and see the state of it. We don't interfere in the daily maintenance or use of the room, but if necessary will and voice out when things looks out of place, abused or misused. Sometimes, it's the kids who invite us into their rooms in order to sort things out for them, like to change a bulb or something. So my dear friend, the analogy is best suited to counter your assertion of no interference, lol

Possibly, if I were not wrong, you are painting a picture of God as Man. Well, we saw him wrestling with human and dragging meat with men. Amen!

MuttleyLaff:
Its a pity that's what and all you know.

No one is forcing you to.

Let us leave that for that.

MuttleyLaff:
Unfortunately for you, it's too big a step for you to at the moment and with your frame of mind to take

The beauty of this discourse and one which gives me such pleasuring delight, is that no matter how this discourse swings, you will never ever, and thank God for that, ever have the last word, lol. What a relief.

Can you for once tell us the basis of your faith? Is it shaken like Paul's who queried the existence, death and resurrection of Christ? Does your faith measure up after knowing that the sweet Jesus you long believe in did not exist?
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by FOLYKAZE(m): 2:21pm On Feb 13
dragunov:


Oga folake, stop meddling in things you don't understand. All this your pseudo intellectualism amounts to nothing.

Tell us what you know Darasimi
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by FOLYKAZE(m): 2:31pm On Feb 13
budaatum:

So, you admit that despite "the messenger [maybe] a hoax", the philosophical thoughts shake the whole world.

Do you realise you are saying that even though the stories about the messenger may be a hoax, the message itself is plausible?

Widely held belief is what it is, belief, not truth
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by MuttleyLaff: 2:43pm On Feb 13
Double post
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by MuttleyLaff: 2:44pm On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:
Possibly, if I were not wrong, you are painting a picture of God as Man. Well, we saw him wrestling with human and dragging meat with men. Amen!
You conveniently seem to have forgotten that it is the other way round, that man is a picture of God, that man is an image of God. So what, if God manifest to physically wrestle with human or drag meat with men., huh? Do you think, God has a chip on His shoulder ni? Though He has every right to, I guess you suppose that God thinks too much of Himself, for me doing any of those such thing. You are one of those guys who thinks, why would Almighty God come to earth and come in via the birth canal of a woman. You're the type often that will say, what kind of God is that who gets himself haung up on a cross and ends up crying out on the cross

FOLYKAZE:
Let us leave that for that.
No skin off my nose

FOLYKAZE:
Can you for once tell us the basis of your faith?
I already more than once have, but obviously its not an answer you are used to getting, so you frustratingly are not satisfied with it

FOLYKAZE:
Is it shaken like Paul's who queried the existence, death and resurrection of Christ?
Knowing its you, you've probably misunderstood the verses, so I request you provide the verses you attribute your comment to

FOLYKAZE:
Does your faith measure up after knowing that the sweet Jesus you long believe in did not exist?
How do you know Jesus did not exist? Is it not documented in the Bible and other historical/passing comments that Jesus existed ni?
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by EMILO2STAY(m): 2:47pm On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:


That the name of a town, cities, person or animal is mentioned in a tale doesn't make it truth.
but it goes a long way to lend credence and also makes the claim plausible. As a matter of fact it makes it true.




FOLYKAZE:
Many cultures use tales and myth to convey messages, and not treating myth as historical fact. The bible as retorted by Christians is that the whole account is factual base on historic happenings. The myth is actually what it is, fiction and folktales with no substance in reality. Equating both account is fallacy, making your own case implausible. Myth cannot authenticate reality.
What you do not realize is that some of what we call myth and legends are actually historical facts which have been passed down from generation to generation and as such becomes corrupted with time. The whole accounts of the bible I believe to be factual, but experts scoff at it only to be humbled when facts supporting the scriptures are found.

FOLYKAZE:
The Noah account is dated to be around 5000yrs ago, and the fossil found dates back to millions of yrs. How does the two correlate?
your right. The Noah account is dated to be around 5 to 6000yrs old same as human civilization on earth. How ever there is no factual evidence of the millions of yrs purported by scientist. Except carbon dating which is never a reliable system of dating at all.





FOLYKAZE:
Can you present evidence to the emboldened. Living snail dating back to thousands of years. I will appreciate that sir

this is not just something you can get on google search. You may try to read this book online

https://books.google.com.ng/books?id=vHLU7hJboKoC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=Consider+now+that+shells+from+living+snails+were+dated+using+the+Carbon+14+method.+The+results+stated+that+the+snails+had+died+twenty+seven+thousand+years+ago.+Similarly+living+penguins+have+been+carbon+dated+that+they+had+died+eight+.&source=bl&ots=Trh6fPEgKe&sig=ACfU3U1is7Tnh6Pwqu4wGy6Qy79JcI_wqQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjt8o72r87nAhUhsaQKHV6VACQQ6AEwAHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=Consider%20now%20that%20shells%20from%20living%20snails%20were%20dated%20using%20the%20Carbon%2014%20method.%20The%20results%20stated%20that%20the%20snails%20had%20died%20twenty%20seven%20thousand%20years%20ago.%20Similarly%20living%20penguins%20have%20been%20carbon%20dated%20that%20they%20had%20died%20eight%20.&f=false



FOLYKAZE:
Josephus record is not an eye witness account. The discovery of the Ark have been exposed as hoax and total fraud. You can present your evidence if you have one.
you cannot call this a lie and a fraud because there definitely exist something large of a wooden structure up in the mountains ararat that looks like a large boat.
https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/does-new-evidence-prove-noah-s-ark-buried-turkish-mountain-009404




FOLYKAZE:
1. Lady justice is important to the whole world as she constitute orderliness, law and justice among the people. Lady Justice however doesn't exist.
Lady justice cannot be compared to jesus, the teachings and the legacy of christ cannot be compared to any lady justice as the teachings of christ and the impact ot made disturbed the government of his time. The name of some roman governors and prefects who existed at that time and can be confirmed by historical records and are there for us today. If pilate existed who saw and spoke with christ then it is most likely that the man christ existed.

FOLYKAZE:
2. The gospel of Matthew, Luke and John largely copied from the gospel of Mark. The gospel of mark was written several decades after Jesus was dead. And scholars consensus is that the author of gospel of mark do not have understanding of geography, politics and popular figures of Jesus time. Till date, the author of gospel of Mark is unknown, and definitely not Jesus disciple. The author probably is recounting tradition and popular belief of the Jew, and not an eye witness.
There is no doubt that the scriptures are copies of copies but this does not disrupt the intent of the message. The author of the book of mark is highly in doubt but at the same time one cannot pin point the authentic author it might be mark and it might not be. But to say precisely that he was not a desciple would be making an assumption which is likely an error.

FOLYKAZE:
3. I don't know what you call 1 Cor 15:3, 14 and 17 is an indication of doubt and fear.

4. Apostle Paul according to the scripture didn't see Jesus, he read about him in the scripture and the Creed. Much of the Paul account is recorded 60yrs after Jesus death, there is no way he is an eye witness of Jesus.
you are wrong, the Apostle paul saw christ according to scripture. Paul saw christ in his glorified form which is what made him a christian because he was a persecutor of the Christians himself.



FOLYKAZE:
Buddha wrote many philosophical thoughts which shake the whole Asia. The adherent of buddhism practise the religion till date but we all know that Buddha is fiction, not born with the the help of elephant.

We also know that Mohammed didnt flew up and cut the moon into half even when we have billions of Muslims across the world. That moon cutting story is fiction.

All these ain't different from the account of Jesus and the religion, Christianity.
how do you know that budda didn't exist? What is your proof for that?, who wrote the philosophical thoughts of budda? Budda might not have been born by an elephant but once upon a time there mist have been a figure who started the whole religion of Buddhism.

There are actually historical evidence supporting the existence of christ though minute but they are there. And cannot be disputed
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by budaatum: 3:39pm On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:


Widely held belief is what it is, belief, not truth
Depends what message you are receiving.

Many consider, "Love your neighbors and your enemies moreso" a very valid truth.

But that's not a message many seem to think is meant when told "Accept Jesus into your life", or, "Lift up your cross and follow me". Especially when one isn't keyed into how religious scripture works. Even many religious folks miss the point.
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by aadoiza: 5:54pm On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:


You are either too lazy by not taking your time to make a simple Google search on 'historicity of Exodus' or you are dumb from not seeing that the OP is focusing on more than one account, not relying on one academian submission, and may not list out the names of the scholars as they are too many.

The OP covers creation story, Noah global flood, exodus, babylon captivity and exile. Even on the Exodus alone, I can list tons of scholar who deducted the narrative is fable.

1. Israel Finkelstein : He is an Israeli archaeologist. A Professor of the Archaeology of Israel in the Bronze and Iron Ages at Tel Aviv University . He is active in the archaeology of the Levant and an applicant of archaeological data in reconstructing biblical history. He told The Jerusalem Post that Jewish archaeologists have found no historical or archaeological evidence to back the biblical narrative of the Exodus, the Jews' wandering in Sinai or Joshua's conquest of Canaan . On the alleged Temple of Solomon , Prof Israel said that there is no archaeological evidence to prove it really existed.

2. Zahi Hawass is an Egyptian archaeologist , Egyptologist , and former Minister of State for Antiquities Affairs. He worked at archaeological sites in the Nile Delta, the Western Desert , and the Upper Nile Valley. He wrote on his findings regarding Exodus of Israelite from Egypt: Really, it's a myth [...] This is my career as an archaeologist. I should tell them the truth. If the people are upset, that is not my problem.


3. Prof. Ze'ev Herzog He is an Israeli archeologist, professor of archaeology at The Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University. Base on the summary of his work, he wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:
"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai."

I have provided at names of at least three scholars, their field of expertise and summary of their works. You don't like their job and findings, that is your headache.

Can we now deal with the issue at hand?
How am I not surprised at your wanton insults? You knew I was gonna expose you for what you are, a shameless scientific pagan.
At least, you have done my work for me; you can continue to wankk at your Yiddish scholars' opinions. Wetin consign me grin grin

Gosh! Why all these gay shibboleths full this forum na?
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by dragunov: 6:04pm On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:


Tell us what you know Darasimi

Your oracles told you my name is Darasimi? It is (your oracles) wrong. Oga Folake, I am DRAGUNOV!

That aside. You can't just hop into this forum and start make sweeping generalisations that all events recorded in the bible are fables and have no basis in history.

Historical accounts themselves are recorded by humans. So if for whatever reason, at any given time, there is no individual available, literate or willing to record the events of his time, does that now translate to the event not happening at all?

So if those accounts /events were now recanted 100 yrs later and documented, those that make it false? Hell no!
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by dragunov: 6:16pm On Feb 13
FOLYKAZE:


You are either too lazy by not taking your time to make a simple Google search on 'historicity of Exodus' or you are dumb from not seeing that the OP is focusing on more than one account, not relying on one academian submission, and may not list out the names of the scholars as they are too many.

The OP covers creation story, Noah global flood, exodus, babylon captivity and exile. Even on the Exodus alone, I can list tons of scholar who deducted the narrative is fable.

1. Israel Finkelstein : He is an Israeli archaeologist. A Professor of the Archaeology of Israel in the Bronze and Iron Ages at Tel Aviv University . He is active in the archaeology of the Levant and an applicant of archaeological data in reconstructing biblical history. He told The Jerusalem Post that Jewish archaeologists have found no historical or archaeological evidence to back the biblical narrative of the Exodus, the Jews' wandering in Sinai or Joshua's conquest of Canaan . On the alleged Temple of Solomon , Prof Israel said that there is no archaeological evidence to prove it really existed.

2. Zahi Hawass is an Egyptian archaeologist , Egyptologist , and former Minister of State for Antiquities Affairs. He worked at archaeological sites in the Nile Delta, the Western Desert , and the Upper Nile Valley. He wrote on his findings regarding Exodus of Israelite from Egypt: Really, it's a myth [...] This is my career as an archaeologist. I should tell them the truth. If the people are upset, that is not my problem.


3. Prof. Ze'ev Herzog He is an Israeli archeologist, professor of archaeology at The Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University. Base on the summary of his work, he wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:
"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai."

I have provided at names of at least three scholars, their field of expertise and summary of their works. You don't like their job and findings, that is your headache.

Can we now deal with the issue at hand?

Folake baba, this your heavy reliance on fake Jews and fake Egyptians will not lead you anywhere. Period.
Re: Historicity Of The Bible And Justification Of Christian Faith by FOLYKAZE(m): 6:32pm On Feb 13
EMILO2STAY:
but it goes a long way to lend credence and also makes the claim plausible. As a matter of fact it makes it true.

Mentioning names of towns, popular figures and animals does not make tales truth. The Yoruba creation myth mentioned Oduduwa descending on a chain from the sky in a city known as Ode Ife. Actually, Ode Ife is a real town in the present Osun state. But it is a known fact that there is no man at any point in time, climb down from the sky. It was wholesale falsity, though mentioning names of historical places but that doesn't make it true.

EMILO2STAY:
What you do not realize is that some of what we call myth and legends are actually historical facts which have been passed down from generation to generation and as such becomes corrupted with time. The whole accounts of the bible I believe to be factual, but experts scoff at it only to be humbled when facts supporting the scriptures are found.

I disagree with you bro. What we call myth are actually a constructive thought on a wrong premises with the aim of explaining a phenomenon or conveying moral message. I remember telling my son reasons why pig grunt around and dig the ground with it nose. True, pig digs around with it nose, but the reason I gave is not factual. I constructed my tale using a real trait of pig, but my story is laced with lies and imaginations.

EMILO2STAY:
your right. The Noah account is dated to be around 5 to 6000yrs old same as human civilization on earth. How ever there is no factual evidence of the millions of yrs purported by scientist. Except carbon dating which is never a reliable system of dating at all.

Who gave the account of Noah in the bible, prolly Moses. A figure that existed many centuries after the incident occurred. The account on the first note is not tenable and acceptable as it is not eye witness account.

On the second note, we can talk about how Moses or the author of the Noah global flood story got his evidence from. Since he/she wasn't writing base on eye witness note, he would have gotten the evidence of the incidence from somewhere.

EMILO2STAY:
this is not just something you can get on google search. You may try to read this book online

https://books.google.com.ng/books?id=vHLU7hJboKoC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=Consider+now+that+shells+from+living+snails+were+dated+using+the+Carbon+14+method.+The+results+stated+that+the+snails+had+died+twenty+seven+thousand+years+ago.+Similarly+living+penguins+have+been+carbon+dated+that+they+had+died+eight+.&source=bl&ots=Trh6fPEgKe&sig=ACfU3U1is7Tnh6Pwqu4wGy6Qy79JcI_wqQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjt8o72r87nAhUhsaQKHV6VACQQ6AEwAHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=Consider%20now%20that%20shells%20from%20living%20snails%20were%20dated%20using%20the%20Carbon%2014%20method.%20The%20results%20stated%20that%20the%20snails%20had%20died%20twenty%20seven%20thousand%20years%20ago.%20Similarly%20living%20penguins%20have%20been%20carbon%20dated%20that%20they%20had%20died%20eight%20.&f=false

Will surely check when I get home.



EMILO2STAY:
you cannot call this a lie and a fraud because there definitely exist something large of a wooden structure up in the mountains ararat that looks like a large boat.
https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/does-new-evidence-prove-noah-s-ark-buried-turkish-mountain-009404

All these have been discovered to be fake.

EMILO2STAY:
Lady justice cannot be compared to jesus, the teachings and the legacy of christ cannot be compared to any lady justice as the teachings of christ and the impact ot made disturbed the government of his time. The name of some roman governors and prefects who existed at that time and can be confirmed by historical records and are there for us today. If pilate existed who saw and spoke with christ then it is most likely that the man christ existed.

Can you present a document written by Pilate where he said he met Jesus? Or just any document written during the time of Jesus where the author states that he saw Jesus?

EMILO2STAY:
There is no doubt that the scriptures are copies of copies but this does not disrupt the intent of the message. The author of the book of mark is highly in doubt but at the same time one cannot pin point the authentic author it might be mark and it might not be. But to say precisely that he was not a desciple would be making an assumption which is likely an error.

Emilio, you agree that copies of copies, that the writers are not writing what they witnessed, but only repleting old traditions which have been on 60yrs after Jesus death. And that the author of these gospels do not have same intent, reason there were too many contradictions in the bible.

A writer, who witnessed an incidence, will give an accurate account of what he saw. The case, as you admitted, is not same with gospel of Mark which is the oldest manuscript. If the author is anyone among the disciple, they have given an accurate description of the geographical area, political figures and happenings of that time.

EMILO2STAY:
you are wrong, the Apostle paul saw christ according to scripture. Paul saw christ in his glorified form which is what made him a christian because he was a persecutor of the Christians himself.

Do you understand what an eye witness account is?

If you read 1cor critically, you will find there where Paul stated he got knowledge of Jesus death and resurrection only in the scripture. He didn't say the incident played out before him.

Whether he saw light or man or Jesus on his way to Damascus is inconsequential. As a matter of fact, the contradictions invalidate the account.



EMILO2STAY:
how do you know that budda didn't exist? What is your proof for that?, who wrote the philosophical thoughts of budda? Budda might not have been born by an elephant but once upon a time there mist have been a figure who started the whole religion of Buddhism.

From the materials and resources gather on Buddhism, I found out that Buddha life which can only be found only in the canonical texts, have only biographies which are both late in origin and replete with legends and myths. And that the oldest canonical texts are products of long process of oral transmission that evidently included some revision and much addition.

The first known canonical text was written during the reign of king Vattagamani Abhaya in the 1st century bce, that is nearly a millennium after the death of Buddha. Source : Abington Dictionary of living Religions.

EMILO2STAY:
Now take a time and read Jakata and Buddha charita. It entails the mythical nature of his birth... The whole account is canon cannot be accepted.

There are actually historical evidence supporting the existence of christ though minute but they are there. And cannot be disputed

Emilo, as much as I really want to see an eye witness account that provide evidence for Jesus existence, I haven't find any course there is none. The minute you talk about are written several decades after his death. This is unusual for a man like Jesus that have significant things happening in his days.

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