MrBible:
My advice is that a serious company should employ a CS grad and allow them to learn on the job or train them if they do not have enough experience. Most self taught are just noise makers as getteing a programming job is through connection rather than what you know.

Saying a CS grad cannot code is because self taught are not professionals so they don't understand that a professional can look up reference materials as their knowlegde is very wide unlike a self taught that only know the little bit of programming they do all the time.

You will hear self-taught saying a language is out dated when a new language or tool is out, not knowing that every languague and tool has what they are best for and that the major existing languages and tools are kept up to date and can even perform better then the new ones.

Many complex projects are being scrapped because self taught do not have the knowledge to implement them and they will not give a CS grad the oppotunity to come in and implement those projects.

Gerrard59 see this one o . I bet my life he studied computer science but doesn't know a single programming language but wants to get a job.

At the bolded. Why do Nigerians have an innate belief that one can't get a job without connections even in high skilled professions like software development.

tensazangetsu20:


Gerrard59 see this one o . I bet my life he studied computer science but doesn't know a single programming language but wants to get a job.

At the bolded. Why do Nigerians have an innate belief that one can't get a job without connections even in high skilled professions like software development.

If you reel out the number of self taught programmers in the world, he will start finding excuses. From my observations, we've more self taught programmers making waves than those who actually studied Computer Science. Although, most of these persons have quantitative backgrounds.

Additionally, it's entirely wrong to believe that the vast majority of tech jobs are gotten through man-know-man. That's a defeatist mentality to possess as no reputable company who plans to make profits will employ someone solely on the basis of I sabi you unto so so and so. This is not MS Excel or administrative duties but writing series of codes that will result in a product or service which will affect the company's bottomline. However, the good thing about such mentality is that it reduces potential competitors for jobs as they are already defeated before they think of applying which equals less applicants. It's something I like. The last I checked, it's only someone who is not determined and persistent that will believe every job especially in a technically oriented industry is based on man-know-man.

Have you considered learning C# which is a top and highly demanded technology of the Microsoft .Net framework?

Subscribe to my channel and learn everything for free from the scratch till you become a pro. Follow me on a journey to create fullstack software engineers.
On top of that, I would also be making vlogs about life as a software engineer and things to expect in the software industry.

I’m a software industry veteran with years of experience and derive joy in teaching students and aspiring engineers how to go about their craft.

Subscribe to my YouTube channel and watch my videos. You can thank me later by subscribing

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwNrlP_X_VV4vg00P2QmDnw

You can as well join our Facebook community where we answer questions, discuss and share ideas about technologies
https://www./738709033333419/?ref=share

Here is one of these noise maker below.

tensazangetsu20:


Gerrard59 see this one o . I bet my life he studied computer science but doesn't know a single programming language but wants to get a job.

At the bolded. Why do Nigerians have an innate belief that one can't get a job without connections even in high skilled professions like software development.

What is this one saying below. If some pilots are getting a job as a pilot with fake licence through connections how much more getting a programming job which is not regulated.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-53182750

tensazangetsu20:


Gerrard59 see this one o . I bet my life he studied computer science but doesn't know a single programming language but wants to get a job.

At the bolded. Why do Nigerians have an innate belief that one can't get a job without connections even in high skilled professions like software development.

MrBible:
What is this one saying below. If some pilots are getting a job as a pilot with fake licence through connections how much more getting a programming job which is not regulated.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-53182750

You can wing it as a pilot. You can't as a programmer. If you no Sabi, you no Sabi. Even the field I came from marine engineering a lot of people can work as one without any certificate. They can buy certificate from nimasa and work but you can't as a programmer. Companies will test you. How would you even scale the code tests and data structures and algorithms interviews.

Nigeria is the cause of all this argument
As a CsC student you understand what makes things happen, you're able to differentiate and explain the relationship between other aspects of CS.
You may not be a pro in a particular field learning from school.
And those self taught have no idea on other things.
But as a CS student you are at an advantage when you also self develope yourself in specific fields while also holding the CS degree.

Not surprised that you know that it is easy to get a job as a pilot, just goes to show how self taught can get themselves into programming too.

Those coding test are just a lottery and are of no use for developing an end to end secure application.

To a self taught, programming is just like magic just because they have memorised a few code syntax, a self taught will say tell me what software you want and here is it for you in no time like magic but will not tell you it is full of bugs and will not do what the users expect.

A CS grad knows that programming is not magic and is not about rushing to code like a self taught does. Software development requires planning, design, security and documentation before coding with the right language and tools just like building a house. But a self taught does not know all these to a self taught everything to him is just coding with the little code syntax he has memorised.

tensazangetsu20:

You can wing it as a pilot. You can't as a programmer. If you no Sabi, you no Sabi. Even the field I came from marine engineering a lot of people can work as one without any certificate. They can buy certificate from nimasa and work but you can't as a programmer. Companies will test you. How would you even scale the code tests and data structures and algorithms interviews.

MrBible:
Not surprised that you know that it is easy to get a job as a pilot, just goes to show how self taught can get themselves into programming too.

Those coding test are just a lottery and are of no use for developing an end to end secure application.

To a self taught, programming is just like magic just because they have memorised a few code syntax, a self taught will say tell me what software you want and here is it for you in no time like magic but will not tell you it is full of bugs and will not do what the users expect.

A CS grad knows that programming is not magic and is not about rushing to code like a self taught does. Software development requires planning, design, security and documentation before coding with the right language and tools just like building a house. But a self taught does not know all these to a self taught everything to him is just coding with the little code syntax he has memorised.

Data structures and algorithms are extremely important in writing programs and not just for interviews. That's why big tech companies test for them. Your code has to be efficient and that knowledge helps. Especially for building a product that is going to have millions to billions of users. It's not a lottery as you think. Someone who didn't study computer science will have to study data structures and algorithms deeply to be able to get a job at a big tech company.

MrBible:
Not surprised that you know that it is easy to get a job as a pilot, just goes to show how self taught can get themselves into programming too.

Those coding test are just a lottery and are of no use for developing an end to end secure application.

To a self taught, programming is just like magic just because they have memorised a few code syntax, a self taught will say tell me what software you want and here is it for you in no time like magic but will not tell you it is full of bugs and will not do what the users expect.

A CS grad knows that programming is not magic and is not about rushing to code like a self taught does. Software development requires planning, design, security and documentation before coding with the right language and tools just like building a house. But a self taught does not know all these to a self taught everything to him is just coding with the little code syntax he has memorised.

Are you saying we don't have CS graduates that write codes full of bugs? Or is it not in this same Nigeria students cram to pass?

You just being dishonest with your argument against self taught developers.

Memorizing few lines of codes?

To call yourself a programmer really means you are open for business and good at what you do, self taught or not.

If you don't know your onion, you'll lose client, lose job... The end product is to be able to solve real life problems, start a project and complete it efficiently that's what clients pay for. Not your degree, CS or not.

I wonder why you guys keep lamenting about this. You should thank your stars that computer science is hard for an average person.

What would you want educationalists to say for example?

We have so many people with little or no knowledge of what education is, cashing out big time in the various schools they own, some are not even literate.

What about Civil, Mechanical and Electrical Engineers?

Illiterates have taken over their works. It is like this because these so called Illiterates provides real solutions to real problems.

What do we say about those who studied music or political science?

There are different types of data structures. For a self taught they just use one they have memorised not knowing whether it the right one or not. But a CS grad understands and knows the right data structure, algorithm and language to use for a complec task and these are not the kind of stuff that can be tested in an interview as you need to plan, design and come up with a specification before choosing a data structure and the right algorithms for a task. But to a self taught all these just happens by magic.

A lot of self taught hates SQL queries but they are quick to use ORMs not knowing what types of applications ORMs are good for, to a self taught they are only concerned about the easiest and quickest way which are the hallmark of a quack.

tensazangetsu20:

Data structures and algorithms are extremely important in writing programs and not just for interviews. That's why big tech companies test for them. Your code has to be efficient and that knowledge helps. Especially for building a product that is going to have millions to billions of users. It's not a lottery as you think. Someone who didn't study computer science will have to study data structures and algorithms deeply to be able to get a job at a big tech company.

Karlebolu:
I wonder why you guys keep lamenting about this. You should thank your stars that computer science is hard for an average person.

What would you want educationalists to say for example?

We have so many people with little or no knowledge of what education is, cashing out big time in the various schools they own, some are not even literate.

What about Civil, Mechanical and Electrical Engineers?

Illiterates have taken over their works. It is like this because these so called Illiterates provides real solutions to real problems.

What do we say about those who studied music or political science?

that's not the problem , the problem is that they over exaggerate their abilities and how much they know . Just think of an electrician's apprentice saying he knows more than an engineer and that an engineering degree is a waste of time .
Most people think CS is all about writing code , by the way I'm an electrical engineering student.

lala biko take this to the front page for more views

MrBible:
There are different types of data structures. For a self taught they just use one they have memorised not knowing whether it the right one or not. But a CS grad understands and knows the right data structure, algorithm and language to use for a complec task and these are not the kind of stuff that can be tested in an interview as you need to plan, design and come up with a specification before choosing a data structure and the right algorithms for a task. But to a self taught all these just happens by magic.

A lot of self taught hates SQL queries but they are quick to use ORMs not knowing what types of applications ORMs are good for, to a self taught they are only concerned about the easiest and quickest way which are the hallmark of a quack.

Quit being dishonest bro.

If programming can be learnt, what is Data structures? Infant, to grasp data structures, you need to know your programming very well.

You say this as if being a CS graduate makes you know all the languages, what if you know about a language, you know it's strength and weaknesses but you can't write anything other than 'Hello World' with it?

People generally hate what they don't know.
People who hate SQL, CS graduates or not, simply don't know the language. Bro, everybody loves ORM!

ARCHEMEDESME:

that's not the problem , the problem is that they over exaggerate their abilities and how much they know . Just think of an electrician's apprentice saying he knows more than an engineer and that an engineering degree is a waste of time .
Most people think CS is all about writing code , by the way I'm an electrical engineering student.

That's the issue with people.

Don't blame the apprentice who claims to know more than an engineer, he doesn't know what he's doing, blame the engineer that can't shut him up by showing him projects he's done.

The issue with this thread is that the CS graduates here are just arguing theoretically.

Whom would you employ, a person who just talk, writes codes that won't run on chalk board or someone that gets the job done irrespective of the type of degree?

...and of course, only a clueless person will say Computer Science is all about programming.

ARCHEMEDESME:

that's not the problem , the problem is that they over exaggerate their abilities and how much they know . Just think of an electrician's apprentice saying he knows more than an engineer and that an engineering degree is a waste of time .
Most people think CS is all about writing code , by the way I'm an electrical engineering student.

Well I think that shit only happens in Nigeria because truth be told you might know more than a Nigerian CS graduate if you really have the affinity for computers and you read books. Many of CS students that I know back then are confused. Their lectures just teach them crap. Tell them to write assembly or port a driver for another architecture and you get funny answers. I have a friend who studied CS abroad, this guy is not that serious with the course(he is an insurance guy now) but damn he writes low level assembly code easily and he can easily blow some Nigerian CS graduates that I know out of the water.

A CS grad can learn any language on their own as they have acquired the knowledge to learn a new language on thier own. It is very important that a CS course covers SQL.

Being CS a grad is not about loving ORM, a language or a tool, it's about using the best language or tool for a complex task unlike self taught that uses a language or tool because that's what he loves.

Karlebolu:


Quit being dishonest bro.

If programming can be learnt, what is Data structures? Infant, to grasp data structures, you need to know your programming very well.

You say this as if being a CS graduate makes you know all the languages, what if you know about a language, you know it's strength and weaknesses but you can't write anything other than 'Hello World' with it?

People generally hate what they don't know.
People who hate SQL, CS graduates or not, simply don't know the language. Bro, everybody loves ORM!

Shepherdd:

Well I think that shit only happens in Nigeria because truth be told you might know more than a Nigerian CS graduate if you really have the affinity for computers and you read books. Many of CS students that I know back then are confused. Their lectures just teach them crap. Tell them to write assembly or port a driver for another architecture and you get funny answers. I have a friend who studied CS abroad, this guy is not that serious with the course(he is an insurance guy now) but damn he writes low level assembly code easily and he can easily blow some Nigerian CS graduates that I know out of the water.

Bro can I ask you a question

ARCHEMEDESME:

that's not the problem , the problem is that they over exaggerate their abilities and how much they know . Just think of an electrician's apprentice saying he knows more than an engineer and that an engineering degree is a waste of time .
Most people think CS is all about writing code , by the way I'm an electrical engineering student.

All these una quarrel na sand. It depends on the individual, back in GOUNI I met a lot of so called CS students that don't even know their left from their right so, all this una talk no make sense at all. But the modern day developers and so called CS students also disgust me, the so called developers use others tools and boast on top of it (how ironic). While the CS student gloats and boasts more than ever, just because they sat in class for long periods of time their egos become overbloated.

ARCHEMEDESME:

Bro can I ask you a question

Sure, why not?

MrBible:
A CS grad can learn any language on their own as they have acquired the knowledge to learn a new language on thier own. It is very important that a CS course covers SQL.

Being CS a grad is not about loving ORM, a language or a tool, it's about using the best language or tool for a complex task unlike self taught that uses a language or tool because that's what he loves.

What do you the think self taught programmers do? If you claim a CS graduate can learn any language, bro, self taught programmers are learning any language everyday!

CS graduate or not, you can only use the tools you are conversant with. It's not a matter of liking a set of tools.

Karlebolu:

CS graduate or not, you can only use the tools you are conversant with. It's not a matter of liking a set of tools.

I have a question for you. If I give you a task to write a program that will allow me from the program you write to execute another program on a remote computer and when the program has completed on the remote computer the program you write should be able to accept a return code from the program on the remote computer. Which language and tool will you use for this?

MrBible:


I have a question for you. If I give you a task to write a program that will allow me from the program you write to execute another program on a remote computer and when the program has completed on the remote computer the program you write should be able to accept a return code from the program on the remote computer. Which language and tool will you use for this?

Next time, make your request/question explanatory. A lot of tautologies.

Theoretically, the language/tool that'll do the job.

Practically, the language/tool I'm most convenient with or I simply say, I can't.


Answer your own question!

SegFault:

There is nothing wrong in being self taught, I am tutoring myself in multiple cs courses like OS development, Internet architecture, linear algebra, physics (for the sake of gameplay programming) and System Architecture (this is very good for programmers and CS students in order to spit out code that makes optimising compilers look like dumbos). I want to also continue on Calculus (edx tutors make this stuff seem like cake, shame on Nigerian lecturers and teachers) and some others. It just depends on how you see yourself, some see it as some stupid achievement that makes them smart like Tesla while I see it as a necessity. Even college students should do it.

man,i love your comment.You had part of what i wanted to say in mind! I have key things to say on this subject but no time to type. I am both side of the equation,self taught and Mathematics/CS. Our country and educational system is a major problem. I just went the way of self learning but the knowledge of CS theories is important if your looking beyond application development.Things like OS development,hardware,robotics,etc.
Like you,am also self studying on subjects like robotics,advance mathematics,etc. There are oppotunities i see beyond app. development in africa and the world at large,but i am a die hard software engineer. i program in JAVA,PHP,JS(stacks include: MERN,MEVN),PYTHON,SQL,NOSQL,neo4J,etc. I also do lots of software analysis and UX/UI design using Agile methodology.This field is wide don't limit your self!

If I give the same task to a CS grad who truly have worked hard for their degree, the CS grad will research and come up with a solution and will not give a common excuse like the one you have given which is comon with all the selft taught I have come accross.

"I have a question for you. If I give you a task to write a program that will allow me from the program you write to execute another program on a remote computer and when the program has completed on the remote computer the program you write should be able to accept a return code from the program on the remote computer. Which language and tool will you use for this?"

Karlebolu:


Next time, make your request/question explanatory. A lot of tautologies.

Theoretically, the language/tool that'll do the job.

Practically, the language/tool I'm most convenient with or I simply say, I can't.


Answer your own question!

MrBible:
If I give the same task to a CS grad who truly have worked hard for their degree, the CS grad will research and come up with a solution and will not give a common excuse like the one you have given which is comon with all the selft taught I have come accross.

"I have a question for you. If I give you a task to write a program that will allow me from the program you write to execute another program on a remote computer and when the program has completed on the remote computer the program you write should be able to accept a return code from the program on the remote computer. Which language and tool will you use for this?"

You ended up not answering your own question.

Ever wondered why many professors don't do well outside academics? It's because real life problems require real life solutions not theoretical ones.

Your question is even full of tautologies.

At this point, I'll give up. This argument is pointless and recursive.

Anonime1105:
You already said it,
CS degree += Programming

I guess the reason might not be far fetched from the fact that you can learn everything you learnt while studying for a CS degree outside a University, it might take more time but you can definitely learn everything outside a university settings.

So you don't necessarily need a CS degree to become a "Software Engineer"

It will not take much time actually. The problem is that self taught developers usually learn things that are solutions to their current issues. When they learn they learn fast but also skip things

Because Nigerian CS degree is BS!

I’ve never met any CS graduate from US/EU/Aussie or any developed country that doesn’t know how to code... because you’ll be involved in several projects throughout your university time to validate your skills.

University only try to let you learn the basic concepts of coding/software development, and I think this is valid and fair enough because you have a lot of other stuffs to learn. With that, you’re expected that with ease, you’ll pick up any technology necessary to get any particular job done.

I'm not surprised you ran away from the complex task I gave you and this is normal for self-taught, as this is a common experience I've had with all the self taught I have worked with.
The task I gave you was an example of the one I did some time back at work. The self taught I meet at the place of work who has been there for decades will always give an excuse to run away to do something else when we are about to start a new complex task, then he comes back after I have completed the complex task and then he starts to mess around with the complex task I have completed to make it look like he was the one that did it. Without proper goverment regulation sofware development is one of the worst industries to work in for someone with a programming degree.

Just swallow your pride and admit that a self taught lacks a lot of the skills and knowledge that a CS grad has.

Karlebolu:


You ended up not answering your own question.

Ever wondered why many professors don't do well outside academics? It's because real life problems require real life solutions not theoretical ones.

Your question is even full of tautologies.

At this point, I'll give up. This argument is pointless and recursive.

MrBible:
I'm not surprised you ran away from the complex task I gave you and this is normal for self-taught, as this is a common experience I've had with all the self taught I have worked with.
The task I gave you was an example of the one I did some time back at work. The self taught I meet at the place of work who has been there for decades will always give an excuse to run away to do something else when we are about to start a new complex task, then he comes back after I have completed the complex task and then he starts to mess around with the complex task I have completed to make it look like he was the one that did it. Without proper goverment regulation sofware development is one of the worst industries to work in for someone with a programming degree.

Just swallow your pride and admit that a self taught lacks a lot of the skills and knowledge that a CS grad has.

You are just generalising man. This thing you said is completely false and dumb. It depends on how much the individual loves learning, I have seen many computer science students that don't know anything.

Almost all self taught talk trash like you do. Go an get a CS degree first and stop making up what you don't know about.

SegFault:

[s]You are just generalising man. This thing you said is completely false and dumb. It depends on how much the individual loves learning, I have seen many computer science students that don't know anything. [/s]