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The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by JackBizzle: 12:37pm On Feb 23
During my many years of diving into philosophy as an atheist/humanist, I came to a conclusion which many of my fellow atheists have also arrived at- life has no meaning or purpose.

The basic tenet of nihilism is that life has no purpose or meaning. There are many forms of nihilism;
Moral Nihilism- all moral values are subjective and meaningless
Cosmic Nihilism- the universe does not provide any meaning or purpose to human life.
Epistemological Nihilism- knowledge does not exist or it is impossible for humans to attain.
Existential Nihilism- life has no inherent meaning whatsoever, and that humanity in an individual and collective sense has no purpose

The problem with nihilism is a paradox and I thank Joshthefirst, jamesid29 and many christians who pointed this out to me,

The paradox can be simply put as- Nihilism says that life has no meaning, if that is true, then there is no objective truth and therefore, nihilism itself has no meaning.

Furthermore, a musician once remarked that "that the absence of meaning seems to be some sort of meaning".


Many atheists end up being nihilists. When it comes to morality, the christians usually pulverize atheists when it comes to moral nihilism- "if you dont believe in any moral values and say that all morals are subjective, how then can you criticize the bible's morality?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The solution for atheists and humanists

The solution starts with knowing what kind of Nihilist you are. An epistomological nihilist would have a harder time with the paradox. In denying knowledge, he or she is contradicting his or her own knowlegde. A cosmic nihilist, can separate a universal/cosmic meaninglessness from the indvidual human's existence.

I believe that I am a cosmic nihilist and I subscribe to the relatively new idea of "optimistic nihilism"

My solution to this paradox is to separate the meaninglessness on a universal level from the logic that exists in the reasoning of the individual human life. What I mean is that, life has no intrinsic meaning and we are a spec of dust in terms of the whole universe but that does not stop us from creating our own purpose.

To further explain this, I will use the quantum world to explain. In real life, when you put your finger on something, you are touching it and you can feel it. However, in the quantum world (when view things to a very microscopic level), you are not actually touching anything, there is a space between your finger and what you are touching. In the quantum world, everything thing you are doing becomes meaningless. Does the quantum world change the fact that you are touching something with your fingers? No!

What the quantum world analogy explains is that the meaninglessness of a particular thing does not change the reality of another. We are but a speck of dust in the cosmos. That does not stop us from existing and functioning in the very speck of dust that we call our planet.

Life might have no grand purpose but that does not change the fact that we exist with reasoning capabilities in a physical world.

The fact is that I am not a moral nihilist. I am a cosmic nihilist. Morality is a useful tool when it comes to shaping society. Life might be meaningless in that there is no cosmic purpose but that does not change the fact that our survival and well being depends on our actions- actions towards our
fellow human beings and environment.



Now, I'm a moral universalist, which is opposed to moral nihilism. I believe in some form of utilitarianism in the sense that the outcomes of our actions are a strong factor in shaping morality for the society. Moral universalism takes the view that some system of ethics can be applied to everyone, irrespective of sex, religion, culture.

Moral universalism is another topic for another day.



cc joshthefirst, jamesid29, frank317, xmuslim, Iamplato, muttleylaff
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by IamPlato(m): 2:54pm On Feb 23
I Will Go With Cosmic Nihilism.
That Epistlmological nihilism doesnt make sense to me


every man is born empty with no purpose or meaning and you can choose to stay that way till you become dust again.


only the man himself can give his life a meaning or purpose in this reality.

And Yes The Result We Get Today Are all A Construct Of Our Own Actions

1 Like 1 Share

Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by budaatum: 3:12pm On Feb 23
JackBizzle:
During my many years of diving into philosophy as an atheist/humanist, I came to a conclusion which many of my fellow atheists have also arrived at- life has no meaning or purpose.

I am very sorry that I stopped right there. I was an atheist from birth and my life had meaning so I can't say I shared your opinion that atheists arrive at the conclussion you arrived at!

As a humanist alone, your life ought to have plenty of meaning unless you have not got a clue what humanism is about. I mean, do you not know humanism means "Love humans", and what greater purpose can a human being have than the expression of love for their fellow human being so you get up daily with the sole purpose of diminishing the sufferings of your fellow humans?

Now, let me patiently go and read the rest of what you wrote to find out if you were only an atheist to the Bible, as in one who rightfully disbelieved it, but unfortunately failed to seek understanding of what is written therein.

3 Likes

Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by JackBizzle: 3:18pm On Feb 23
budaatum:


I am very sorry that I stopped right there. I was an atheist from birth and my life had meaning so I can't say I shared your opinion that atheists arrive at the conclussion you arrived at!

As a humanist alone, your life ought to have plenty of meaning unless you have not got a clue what humanism is about. I mean, do you not know humanism means "Love humans", and what greater purpose can a human being have than the expression of love for their fellow human being so you get up daily with the sole purpose of diminishing the sufferings of your fellow humans?

Now, let me patiently go and read the rest of what you wrote to find out if you were only an atheist to the Bible, as in one who rightfully disbelieved it, but unfortunately failed to seek understanding if what is written therein.


Read the whole thing first. wink
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by JackBizzle: 3:20pm On Feb 23
IamPlato:
I Will Go With Cosmic Nihilism.
That Epistlmological nihilism doesnt make sense to me


every man is born empty with no purpose or meaning and you can choose to stay that way till you become dust again.


only the man himself can give his life a meaning or purpose in this reality.

And Yes The Result We Get Today Are all A Construct Of Our Own Actions

Well said. Well said.


But does this not tie into your previous discussion on whether man is evil or good by nature?
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by budaatum: 3:21pm On Feb 23
Okay, I've read it. I think you feel the need to define yourself, as in, find a neat little box you can fit yourself in so you can say you are this or you are that. And I ask, why? Why would you feel the need to define yourself by narrow meaning words? Do you like living in a box, Jackbizzle? Must you imprison yourself?

Perhaps the followings might help you get what I mean:

https://www.nairaland.com/5091184/get-thread-now#76880915

https://www.nairaland.com/5256122/secular-researchers-agree-worldviews-control/1#79571767

https://www.nairaland.com/5231374/godhumans-ai/1#79513534


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM8JhvfoqdA
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by JackBizzle: 3:26pm On Feb 23
budaatum:
Okay, I've read it. I think you feel the need to define yourself, as in, find a neat little box you can fit yourself in so you can say you are this or you are that. And I ask, why? Why would you feel the need to define yourself by narrow meaning words? Do you like living in a box, Jackbizzle? Must you imprison yourself?

Perhaps the followings might help you get what I mean:

https://www.nairaland.com/5091184/get-thread-now#76880915

https://www.nairaland.com/5256122/secular-researchers-agree-worldviews-control/1#79571767

https://www.nairaland.com/5231374/godhumans-ai/1#79513534


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM8JhvfoqdA


I like clarity and a sense of direction. This is why those little boxes help.
Fine-tuning for the soul.

These labels are good in directing the flow of conversation. They encourage a robust discussion on complex subjects like morality.
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by budaatum: 3:35pm On Feb 23
IamPlato:

every man is born empty with no purpose or meaning and you can choose to stay that way till you become dust again.

Born empty, is not the same as "with no purpose" and it is very not true that one is born empty or with no purpose, unless you wish to disregard the umbilical cord!

As soon as one is born, one gasps for air for a purpose, which is to breath so as to live. Would you suggest that is not purpose enough?

Soon after, you yell out, albeit not knowing why, but as soon as a tit is stuck in your mouth, you suck with purpose to fill your belly to nourish yourself. Or is that not purpose enough?

Yes indeed one may "choose to stay that way" and not take breath or tit, IamPlato, but the proper phrase to describe those who "make that choice" - though none ever do but have it fostered on them - are stillborns or those that die soon after birth.

Most of us though, have purposefully chosen to live and give meaning to our existence, which is what Jackbizzle is seeking to do here by defining himself so as to better understand his purpose. And as he grows, so will his box until he breaks the sides down and becomes a free person.

3 Likes

Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by JackBizzle: 3:37pm On Feb 23
budaatum:


Born empty, is not the same as "with no purpose" and it is very not true that one is born empty or with no purpose, unless you wish to disregard the umbilical cord!

As soon as one is born, one gasps for air for a purpose, which is to breath so as to live. Would you suggest that is not purpose enough?

Soon after, you yell out, albeit not knowing why, but as soon as a tit is stuck in your mouth, you suck with purpose to fill your belly to nourish yourself. Or is that not purpose enough?

Yes indeed one may "choose to stay that way" and not take breath or tit, IamPlato, but the proper phrase to describe those who "make that choice" - though none ever do but have it fostered on them - are stillborns or those that die soon after birth.

Most of us though, have purposefully chosen to live and give meaning to our existence, which is what Jackbizzle is seeking to do here by defining himself so as to better understand his purpose. And as he grows, so will his box until he breaks the sides down and becomes a free person.


Correction, no one is born with a purpose.

It seems you are saying that survival is a purpose- which it is not. It is just a function of being a living thing.
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by budaatum: 3:44pm On Feb 23
JackBizzle:



I like clarity and a sense of direction. This is why those little boxes help.
Fine-tuning for the soul.

These labels are good in directing the flow of conversation. They encourage a robust discussion on complex subjects like morality.

Yes! I agree. See my post below that I posted before seeing this.

The boxes are aids, like a boat used to cross a river, but once across you must abandon the boat instead of carrying it across the land and slowing yourself down.

As for morality. That is one river you must have crossed at age 2, or 4 if you are slow, unless you have failed like most to eat of the fruit of the tree of morality and learnt the difference between good and evil. But then, you did say you were an atheist, so I ask.

Are you an atheist to the Bible, as in one who rightfully disbelieves it, but unfortunately fails to seek understanding of what is written therein?

1 Like

Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by budaatum: 3:57pm On Feb 23
JackBizzle:



Correction, no one is born with a purpose.

It seems you are saying that survival is a purpose- which it is not. It is just a function of being a living thing.

That "just a function of being a living thing" is precisely the purpose of being, Jack, and a human being without purpose will not survive and is dead!

I humbly invite Shadeyinka to come and explain to you how one could even be dead though living a purposeless life. You will need to be patient to see beyond his religionese to understand what he means though. And perhaps kkins25 could engage you with Being and Time that we both struggle with.
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by budaatum: 4:04pm On Feb 23
JackBizzle:

I like clarity and a sense of direction. This is why those little boxes help.
Fine-tuning for the soul.

And you chose atheism, the art of disbelieving and seeking so as to know? You really are confused!

If you "like clarity and a sense of direction" and "Fine-tuning for the soul", then abandon the freedom of atheistically using the immense power of your mind to seek understanding and join a religious box and be directed within it, because you will not get far trying to eat your cake and have it!
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by shadeyinka(m): 4:11pm On Feb 23
JackBizzle:
During my many years of diving into philosophy as an atheist/humanist, I came to a conclusion which many of my fellow atheists have also arrived at- life has no meaning or purpose.

The basic tenet of nihilism is that life has no purpose or meaning. There are many forms of nihilism;
Moral Nihilism- all moral values are subjective and meaningless
Cosmic Nihilism- the universe does not provide any meaning or purpose to human life.
Epistemological Nihilism- knowledge does not exist or it is impossible for humans to attain.
Existential Nihilism- life has no inherent meaning whatsoever, and that humanity in an individual and collective sense has no purpose

The problem with nihilism is a paradox and I thank Joshthefirst, jamesid29 and many christians who pointed this out to me,

The paradox can be simply put as- Nihilism says that life has no meaning, if that is true, then there is no objective truth and therefore, nihilism itself has no meaning.

Furthermore, a musician once remarked that "that the absence of meaning seems to be some sort of meaning".


Many atheists end up being nihilists. When it comes to morality, the christians usually pulverize atheists when it comes to moral nihilism- "if you dont believe in any moral values and say that all morals are subjective, how then can you criticize the bible's morality?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The solution for atheists and humanists

The solution starts with knowing what kind of Nihilist you are. An epistomological nihilist would have a harder time with the paradox. In denying knowledge, he or she is contradicting his or her own knowlegde. A cosmic nihilist, can separate a universal/cosmic meaninglessness from the indvidual human's existence.

I believe that I am a cosmic nihilist and I subscribe to the relatively new idea of "optimistic nihilism"

My solution to this paradox is to separate the meaninglessness on a universal level from the logic that exists in the reasoning of the individual human life. What I mean is that, life has no intrinsic meaning and we are a spec of dust in terms of the whole universe but that does not stop us from creating our own purpose.

To further explain this, I will use the quantum world to explain. In real life, when you put your finger on something, you are touching it and you can feel it. However, in the quantum world (when view things to a very microscopic level), you are not actually touching anything, there is a space between your finger and what you are touching. In the quantum world, everything thing you are doing becomes meaningless. Does the quantum world change the fact that you are touching something with your fingers? No!

What the quantum world analogy explains is that the meaninglessness of a particular thing does not change the reality of another. We are but a speck of dust in the cosmos. That does not stop us from existing and functioning in the very speck of dust that we call our planet.

Life might have no grand purpose but that does not change the fact that we exist with reasoning capabilities in a physical world.

The fact is that I am not a moral nihilist. I am a cosmic nihilist. Morality is a useful tool when it comes to shaping society. Life might be meaningless in that there is no cosmic purpose but that does not change the fact that our survival and well being depends on our actions- actions towards our
fellow human beings and environment.



Now, I'm a moral universalist, which is opposed to moral nihilism. I believe in some form of utilitarianism in the sense that the outcomes of our actions are a strong factor in shaping morality for the society. Moral universalism takes the view that some system of ethics can be applied to everyone, irrespective of sex, religion, culture.

Moral universalism is another topic for another day.



cc joshthefirst, jamesid29, frank317, xmuslim, Iamplato, muttleylaff


You have spoken some big English and came to a conclusion that a paradox results and you said:

The paradox can be simply put as- Nihilism says that life has no meaning, if that is true, then there is no objective truth and therefore, nihilism itself has no meaning.

But I still wonder how you still chose a subset of this Nihilism by saying:

I believe that I am a cosmic nihilist and I subscribe to the relatively new idea of "optimistic nihilism"


I think it's like a clock at work: it looks at itself doing the same thing day in day out and conclude, there is no meaning to personal existence.

Honestly, it looks like the clock is speaking the truth as it has no idea inherent purpose other than gears moving, some slow some fast and some oscillating.

But the truth actually is that outside human beings, the clock has no purposes. The purpose of the clock is only defined within the purpose of the owner!

But what if the clock has concluded with finality that it is self existing and humans don't exist!? It doesn't make it purposeless for a clocks purpose it to show intervals or values of time.
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by budaatum: 4:30pm On Feb 23
shadeyinka:

You have spoken some big English....
I see them as the tool the devil would use to confuse, lol, especially when used with little knowledge. The fact that it is a belief is enough to show its poverty.

Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.



HellVictorinho please come see buda quoting Nietzsche, and Martian disbelieve!
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by Martian(m): 4:32pm On Feb 23
budaatum:
and Martian disbelieve!

1 Like 1 Share

Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by budaatum: 4:41pm On Feb 23
Martian:



Reckoned your advanced refined mind would be a healthy contribution to this topic. I love your Martian perspective.
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by Martian(m): 6:09pm On Feb 23
budaatum:

Reckoned your advanced refined mind would be a healthy contribution to this topic. I love your Martian perspective.
Thanks for the vote of confidence but I know nothing.

In my opinion, the only true nihilist is one who commits suicide. The rest is just mental masturbation and grammar.
e.g.

Moral Nihilism- all moral values are subjective and meaningless

Of course all moral values are subjective, and are dependent on the individual and society that espouse the morals. However, they are meaningful because their purpose is to promote social cohesion. Even thieves have a moral code for their “anti-social” cohesion.

Cosmic Nihilism – the universe does not provide any meaning or purpose to human life.

First, this erroneously anthropomorphizes the cosmos and excludes us. We are the cosmos. We are part of the cosmos. A hypothetical intelligent being in the Proxima solar system could look up and we’ll be part of the cosmos that “owes him a purpose”. Second, there very well could be a purpose to the universe but our knowledge base will forever preclude our comprehension of what that purpose is. However, judging by the scarce presence of life in our solar system, the fact that the Sun represents over 99.8% of the mass of our solar system, the daily struggle for life to survive on this planet, and the narrow band of the planet that can sustain life, I think life is just one of the ubiquitous chemical processes in the universe. Life as we know is a complex chemical event of extremely short duration compared to the chemical event that we call the sun, which has been going on for 4.6 billion years.
Does the sun have a purpose? Does life have a purpose? I don’t know, but we give life purpose and that is good enough.

Epistemological Nihilism- knowledge does not exist or it is impossible for humans to attain.
Knowledge exists; however, complete knowledge of nature(universe) might be impossible due to our physiology. E.g. The earth does not “hang on nothing” like some believe due to our inability to perceive “fields”. However, the knowledge base we call Astrophysics teaches and has shown that the earth moves upon the “surface” of the gravitational field and other fields. But the nature of “gravity” itself or the nature of “fields” are not well known and may never be fully known due to the limits of our physiology. Biologists say that a Mantis Shrimp can see parts of the electromagnetic spectrum that is invisible to us. Imagine if they could talk to us, maybe they know the nature of “fields”.

Existential Nihilism- life has no inherent meaning whatsoever, and that humanity in an individual and collective sense has no purpose

If you reject all values, then make your own within the confines of society (while working to improve it) or go live in the woods. Is life inherently meaningless? I don’t know but life gives meaning to itself because consciousness and volition are two of the emergent properties of the chemical process we call life.

2 Likes 1 Share

Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by JackBizzle: 6:25pm On Feb 23
shadeyinka:

You have spoken some big English and came to a conclusion that a paradox results and you said:

The paradox can be simply put as- Nihilism says that life has no meaning, if that is true, then there is no objective truth and therefore, nihilism itself has no meaning.

But I still wonder how you still chose a subset of this Nihilism by saying:




I think it's like a clock at work: it looks at itself doing the same thing day in day out and conclude, there is no meaning to personal existence.

Honestly, it looks like the clock is speaking the truth as it has no idea inherent purpose other than gears moving, some slow some fast and some oscillating.

But the truth actually is that outside human beings, the clock has no purposes. The purpose of the clock is only defined within the purpose of the owner!

But what if the clock has concluded with finality that it is self existing and humans don't exist!? It doesn't make it purposeless for a clocks purpose it to show intervals or values of time.


Let's start with cosmic nihilism.

If a large meteor falls on the earth and destroys us and everything we have built, everything we have done will be meaningless. There will be no more humans, no more records, nothing. No future. The universe does not care. In fact, the universe is a cold inhospitable place. We are insignificant to the universe.

However, in the individual level, we have logic, pleasure and pain. In our individual lives we can create meaning to things and we have. We are only one chromosome away from having a different perception of the world- if everyone was born blind, we would have different meanings of what it means to exist.



Your clock contemplating its existence still runs into the same problem. What is the point of telling the time if the clock itself has no use for it? And does time even exist? Why do we count in hours? Why not in 1,000 seconds? A kilosecond? Why only tell the hours but not the day or month? All these questions will lead to clock to existential crisis, depression and then nihilism.

2 Likes

Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by IamPlato(m): 6:30pm On Feb 23
JackBizzle:


Well said. Well said.


But does this not tie into your previous discussion on whether man is evil or good by nature?
hmmm... you mean a purpose to be evil? i dont get
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by JackBizzle: 6:33pm On Feb 23
Martian:

Thanks for the vote of confidence but I know nothing.

In my opinion, the only true nihilist is one who commits suicide. The rest is just mental masturbation and grammar.
e.g.

Moral Nihilism- all moral values are subjective and meaningless

Of course all moral values are subjective, and are dependent on the individual and society that espouse the morals. However, they are meaningful because their purpose is to promote social cohesion. Even thieves have a moral code for their “anti-social” cohesion.

Cosmic Nihilism – the universe does not provide any meaning or purpose to human life.

First, this erroneously anthropomorphizes the cosmos and excludes us. We are the cosmos. We are part of the cosmos. A hypothetical intelligent being in the Proxima solar system could look up and we’ll be part of the cosmos that “owes him a purpose”. Second, there very well could be a purpose to the universe but our knowledge base will forever preclude our comprehension of what that purpose is. However, judging by the scarce presence of life in our solar system, the fact that the Sun represents over 99.8% of the mass of our solar system, the daily struggle for life to survive on this planet, and the narrow band of the planet that life can exist, I think life is just one of the ubiquitous chemical processes in the universe. Life as we know is a complex chemical event of extremely short duration compared to the chemical event that we call the sun, which has been going on for 4.6 billion years.
Does the sun have a purpose? Does life have a purpose? I don’t know, but we give life purpose and that is good enough.

Epistemological Nihilism- knowledge does not exist or it is impossible for humans to attain.
Knowledge exists; however, complete knowledge of nature(universe) might be impossible due to our physiology. E.g. The earth does not “hang on nothing” like some believe due to our inability to perceive “fields”. However, the knowledge base we call Astrophysics teaches and has shown that the earth moves upon the “surface” of the gravitational field and other fields. But “gravity” itself or the nature of “fields” are not well known and may never be fully known due to the limits of our physiology. Biologists say that a Mantis Shrimp can see parts of the electromagnetic spectrum that is invisible to us. Imagine if they could talk to us, maybe they know the nature of “fields”.

Existential Nihilism- life has no inherent meaning whatsoever, and that humanity in an individual and collective sense has no purpose

If you reject all values, then make your own within the confines of society (while working to improve it) or go live in the woods. Is life inherently meaningless? I don’t know but life gives meaning to itself because consciousness and volition are two of the emergent properties of the chemical process we call life.



I disagree. Cosmic nihilism is the only nihilism that makes sense.

Your claim that cosmic nihilism anthropomorphizes the universe and excludes humans in ironically wrong. The problem here is that the truth is actually the opposite of what you said- it is actually religions and irrational faith that anthropomorphizes the universe and then includes us as the centre of the universe.

The actual fact is that life is meaningless on the universal/cosmic level. We as humans are insignificant and will not matter when the sun blows our planet to smithereens.

As a cosmic nihilist, I still have the option of accepting that there is meaning in the individual level. Humans create meaning with their logic and reasoning
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by IamPlato(m): 6:33pm On Feb 23
budaatum:
Okay, I've read it. I think you feel the need to define yourself, as in, find a neat little box you can fit yourself in so you can say you are this or you are that. And I ask, why? Why would you feel the need to define yourself by narrow meaning words? Do you like living in a box, Jackbizzle? Must you imprison yourself?

Perhaps the followings might help you get what I mean:

https://www.nairaland.com/5091184/get-thread-now#76880915

https://www.nairaland.com/5256122/secular-researchers-agree-worldviews-control/1#79571767

https://www.nairaland.com/5231374/godhumans-ai/1#79513534


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM8JhvfoqdA
define Purpose
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by JackBizzle: 6:35pm On Feb 23
budaatum:


And you chose atheism, the art of disbelieving and seeking so as to know? You really are confused!

If you "like clarity and a sense of direction" and "Fine-tuning for the soul", then abandon the freedom of atheistically using the immense power of your mind to seek understanding and join a religious box and be directed within it, because you will not get far trying to eat your cake and have it!


I am trying to balance my beliefs.

I am an atheist, humanist and a philosopher.

I might seem confused to you but I am actually streamlining my beliefs and trying to see how others critique it.
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by shadeyinka(m): 6:37pm On Feb 23
budaatum:

I see them as the tool the devil would use to confuse, lol, especially when used with little knowledge. The fact that it is a belief is enough to show its poverty.

Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.



HellVictorinho please come see buda quoting Nietzsche, and Martian disbelieve!
The OP actually described it well and he also showed the weaknesses inherent in such a disposition. Unfortunately, I feel he still wish there is something positive that can be brought out of it by trying to choose a lesser evil as a
cosmic nihilist.

I think the interdependence of so many things working to produce some kind predictability.

Do plants for instance have purpose(s)?
Do herbivores have their purpose(s)?
Do atoms have their purpose(s)?
Does the rotation and evolution of the earth have a purpose?

When you isolate each from their effect on the global system, one is tempted to believe in nihilism!

The Purpose of a System and Beneficiary of such System cannot be dissociated? If there is no beneficiary of a system, such system will be purposeless!
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by budaatum: 6:37pm On Feb 23
Martian:

Thanks for the vote of confidence but I know nothing.

It is precisely for this reason that I hold you in high regard, Martian, even when we disagree.

Unlike earthlings who believe they know, you are willing to remain open minded like a child who is willing to continously learn instead of becoming a believer who 'knows' all.

Just see how you continously add to our knowledge and you would understand how highly buda regards your Martian mind.
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by JackBizzle: 6:39pm On Feb 23
IamPlato:
hmmm... you mean a purpose to be evil? i dont get

No. What I am saying is that moral nihilism dismisses any notion of good and evil!
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by budaatum: 6:46pm On Feb 23
JackBizzle:



I am trying to balance my beliefs.

I am an atheist, humanist and a philosopher.

I might seem confused to you but I am actually streamlining my beliefs and trying to see how others critique it.
Yes you are confused. And its not some disease or illness, but the normal state of human development while they find a purpose. Introduce yourself to Maslow and perhaps you'd get what I mean.

I am asking you to abandon your beliefs and become as a child with an open mind and wonder, instead of allowing beliefs to blind you. It is the ignorant and unwilling to learn, who believe the crap in their own heads.
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by IamPlato(m): 6:46pm On Feb 23
JackBizzle:


No. What I am saying is that moral nihilism dismisses any notion of good and evil!
moral Values Are Indeed Subjective But Not Meaningless.

I Disagree With Moral Nihilism


Good And Evil are Born From Mental decisiveness, man Is Always Presented Between Two Choices.
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by budaatum: 6:52pm On Feb 23
shadeyinka:

If there is no beneficiary of a system, such system will be purposeless!
Correct.

You can not have a system, which is "a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network complex whole" without beneficiary.

The statement alone is obviously oxymoronic.
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by IamPlato(m): 6:52pm On Feb 23
budaatum:


That "just a function of being a living thing" is precisely the purpose of being, Jack, and a human being without purpose will not survive and is dead!

I humbly invite Shadeyinka to come and explain to you how one could even be dead though living a purposeless life. You will need to be patient to see beyond his religionese to understand what he means though. And perhaps kkins25 could engage you with Being and Time that we both struggle with.
so You Are Saying The Purpose Of Man Is To survive.
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by shadeyinka(m): 6:52pm On Feb 23
JackBizzle:



Correction, no one is born with a purpose.

It seems you are saying that survival is a purpose- which it is not. It is just a function of being a living thing.
Let's look at things from biological point of view.
Are plants existing for a purpose?

Plants replenish the earth with oxygen!
Plants convert solar radiation to food for all other living beings!
Plants mop up the CO2 in the environment?

Looking at this, would you consider plants as having a purpose?

Of course, this question is easy to have an answer from you because you are outside the plant system!

But to the plant, can it understand by any means that it has a purpose apart from growing, swaying in the wind and dying? A plant doesn't even have the brainpower to understand their respiration, feeding , solar energy conversion etc

For the plant, can we say they are "born" with no purpose?
Unfortunately, isolating if the plants are isolated, they will come to your conclusion: that everything is meaningless!

Cc: budaatum:


L
Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by JackBizzle: 6:54pm On Feb 23
budaatum:

Yes you are confused. And its not some disease or illness, but the normal state of human development while they find a purpose. Introduce yourself to Maslow and perhaps you'd get what I mean.

I am asking you to abandon your beliefs and become as a child with an open mind and wonder, instead of allowing beliefs to blind you. It is the ignorant and unwilling to learn, who believe the crap in their own heads.


.....and that's how you became a jedi master. Yodatuum.

Sorry, what you are asking me is to become some pluralistic spiritualist hippie?

I am open to learn but seeing as I am not a child with a tabula rasa brain, I have to put my beliefs (foundations) forward and see how they cope...

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Re: The Paradox Of Nihilism- A Problem For Atheists And Humanists by shadeyinka(m): 6:56pm On Feb 23
budaatum:

Correct.

You can not have a system, which is "a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network complex whole" without beneficiary.

The statement alone is obviously oxymoronic.
I agree perfectly!

A foundermental question then should be who/what is benefiting from this system?

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