Truthshots:

My proof: ogiso, oduduwa, oranmiyan and co are not backed by any eyewitness written document.
(I come from a scientific background, so I see things rationally. The fact some people believe in a story doesn't translate to the truthfulness of the story. The story being backed by proof, is what makes it true)

If you are to put it this way, would you then suggest that if the Europeans didn't show up on the shores of Benin that equivocally means that the Benin empire never existed in the absence of no written documentation

Fezz:


You need historic backup to such stories though.. for people to believe this you need to provide proof. A lot of people believe in the ogisos, so it will be really good if there is evidence to this point you are making.

I understand that the likes of oduduwa and oranmiyan can be made up for political reasons.. but ogisos is at the heart of Benin Kingdom history. It will be difficult to shove this one off though.

The reason the Yoruba are always desperate to link Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife to Benin is because the documentation of Yoruba history started proper in the 1800s, 400 years late compared to Benin and to bridge this gap they find a way to link Ife to Benin, in modern times, after the lost of Benin empire, the Benin Palace also benefit from this arrangement because it puts the Oba of Benin above all Yoruba Obas.

The story goes like this, Oduduwa to Oranmiyan to first Oba of Benin to first Alaafin of Oyo and the Ooni is their chief priest then others. This is pure politics without historical evidence to back it up.

The Yoruba use Benin to shore up their history earlier than 1800s while the Oba of Benin retains seniority.

Fezz:


If you are to put it this way, would you then suggest that if the Europeans didn't show up on the shores of Benin that equivocally means that the Benin empire never existed in the absence of no written documentation

I never claimed that the first Oba of Benin never existed. Actually, just by mathematical reasoning, you would prove that the first Oba of Benin existed. But that is where logics ends, anything else being told about the first Oba of Benin is just pure fiction.

I am not claiming that things which were not captured by history didn't exist. I am only informing you that the story which you are hearing is a myth !


You can look at past events like a black box in which something is happening but you can't access what is happening unless it is brought to you by a note left by people who were in that box.

I don't know how to make this clearer.
Being smart ain't easy.

Fezz:


If you are to put it this way, would you then suggest that if the Europeans didn't show up on the shores of Benin that equivocally means that the Benin empire never existed in the absence of no written documentation

The point is without written history, events and history that are passed down by words of mouth attracts several distortions over a long time.

People are still disputing the events that lead to the civil war that only happened in 1960s in the age of written words, Imagine trying to go back few hundred years let alone a thousand years without writing.

Fezz:
Hmmm, you are making good points and I agree with you here. It's quite hard to imagine that no account of benin/Ife relationship was penned down by the Europeans for 400 years. That's a long time Bro, especially in the context that Ife was assumed to be a major Kingdom at that time. This raises a lot of questions as regards to the authenticity of benin/Ife connection.

Exactly! Just as there is no eyewitness account confirming that the following supposed oba have anything to do with Benin kingdom.

Eweka I, Uwuakhuahen, Ehenmihen, Ewedo, Oguola, Edoni, Udagbedo, Ohen, Egbeka, Orobiru, Uwaifiokun, Ewuare I, Ezoti, Olua, Ozolua, Esigie, Orhogbua, Ehengbuda, Ohuan, Ohenzae, Akenkpaye, Akengbedo, Ore-Oghene, Ewuakpe, Ozuere, Akenzua I, Eresoyen, Akengbuda, Obanosa, Ogbebo, and Osemwende.

The EuRoPeAnS tHat sTudY BeNiN hIsToRy fOuNd nO hIsToRiCaL connection LiNkInG bEnIN hIsToRy wItH any of the above-listed names iN tHe FiRsT 400 yEaRs (1400s - 1800s) oF EuRoPeAnS eYeWiTnEsS dOcUmEnTaTiOn oF BeNiN hIsToRy.

Are you aware of this? And what do you honestly concluded from this fact? LMAO!

Moreover, there are other evidence (apart from writing) which links the foregoing names to Benin kingdom.

These evidence are called multiple independence verbal corroboration which all say virtually the same thing.

Similarly, there are other evidence (hard evidence in fact) which establishes the subservience of Benin to Ife since the 1300s at least.

(1) https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/9#96323798

(2) https://www.nairaland.com/6087424/benin-ife-myth-shouldnt-circulated#93803726

An other way to look at this is this: the non eyewitness recorded past is inaccessible to mankind. There is an infinite number of possibilities of what actually took place. Therefor the probability of the story of oduduwa, ogiso, oranmiyan is nil.

In other words the story is impossible.

Truthshots:
[s]An other way to look at this is this: the non eyewitness recorded past is inaccessible to mankind. There is an infinite number of possibilities of what actually took place. Therefor the probability of the story of oduduwa, ogiso, oranmiyan is nil.

In other words the story is impossible.[/s]

In other words, a certain generation of Benin citizens (numbering several tens or hundreds of thousand) all decided to pass on a different name of their king (and different events) to the following generation — and so on. Wonderful!

This confirms my long time suspicion that Binis have been terrible fraudsters from a very long time ago.

Jude, come I want to slap you.

Or you could also look at time like a straight line.
You are in the present and the past is hundreds of kilometres away from you, there is no vehicle which takes you to the past, but there are few vehicles which come from the past, they are called eyewitness records. The only way to catch a glimpse at the past is to question the content of those eye witness records.

Truthshots:
[s]Or you could also look at time like a straight line.
You are in the present and the past is hundreds of kilometres away from you, there is no vehicle which takes you to the past, but there are few vehicles which come from the past, they are called eyewitness records. The only way to catch a glimpse at the past is to question the content of those eye witness records[/s]

Trying hard to sound intelligent? LMAO.

Anyways, the past was passed down to us from successive generations who were eyewitness to it.

TAO11:
Let me summarize your brothers’ brainwashing baptism (which you’re about to experience) to you:

(1) You must reject Ogiso — because if you don’t, the Yorubas would convince you with the truth along the lines that if obaship was always a Benin thing why then the need for a change of title.

(2) You must reject the name Igodomigido — because if you don’t, the Yorubas would convince with truth along the lines that if Benin wasn’t a foreign name later imposed by the Yorubas why the change of name.

(3) You must reject Oduduwa and Oranmiyan — because if you don’t, the Yorubas would make you realize that historians have debunked the idea that Ekalderhan is Oduduwa; and you will be left with the only truth that Oduduwa is not related to the Edos.

(4) You must reject anything that has to do with Ife — because if you don’t, you would forced to accept the fact and truth that Benin kingdom is a descendant kingdom from Ife (which is the classical received account originally collected from the royal court of Benin kingdom).

(5) You must reject the names of all Benin kings from Eweka I to Osemwende because people didn’t write them down; and as such the Benin royalty and citizens must all have agreed recently to forge these names because the original true names of the kings (which were passed on to them from successive generations) didn’t sound cute enough.

—————————-
In other words, you become stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.

In respect to your post, I have some observations

1) It's only logical for the Benin royal house to change title from ogiso to another title (such as oba) because the ogisos came from a uniquestion lineage known as "kings of the sky". The ogiso bloodline was revered and special. Now, a benin prince came back to ruse his people known as oranmiyan, but the Benin chiefs could not give him the revered title of ogiso because they figured his blood was tainted with a foreign blood because they feared his mother wasn't from igodomigodo despite them knowing his father was Ekaledehan (oduduwa). So it's only normal for them to name him with a different title as "oba".. which practically almost means the same thing as ogiso in Benin language.

2)when your supposed oduduwa came from the sky and landed in ile-Ife, he didn't change the name. He met it as ile-Ife and it remained as ile-Ife... so it makes no sense to think that oranmiyan had to change the name of igodomigodo to Ubini later changed to Benin by the portuguese. Besides Ubinui has always been the name ascribed to igodomigodo by the itsekiris since before oranmiyan stepped a foot in igodomigodo. Ile- ibinu was given by oranmiyan but it's completely different from Ubini. It was the itsekiris that told the Portuguese about Ubini and the Portuguese later corrupted it to Benin. So you can't ascribe the name "Benin" to oranmiyan because he's not the originator

3) I truly believe that Ekaledehan is the same person as oduduwa because it's only logical for the Benin chiefs to bring back their son of the soil to rule over them. It's impossible for a proud Benin tribe to bring a complete stranger to rule over them. I don't think you know how proud Benin people are when it comes to their royal stool. I know you won't agree with me but this is just common logic and facts.

Secondly, Ife was just an upcoming name at that time, why would the mighty igodomigodo go to Ife of all places to find a king to lead them instead of other nearby kingdoms. It doesn't just add up.

samuk:


The point is without written history, events and history that are passed down by words of mouth attracts several distortions over a long time.

People are still disputing the events that lead to the civil war that only happened in 1960s in the age of written words, Imagine trying to go back few hundred years let alone a thousand years without writing.

People dispute granular details such as why did so-and-so happen.

We don’t dispute details such as was there a civil war or not.

Fezz:


Hmmm, you are making good points and I agree with you here. It's quite hard to imagine that no account of benin/Ife relationship was penned down by the Europeans for 400 years. That's a long time Bro, especially in the context that Ife was assumed to be a major Kingdom at that time. This raises a lot of questions as regards to the authenticity of benin/Ife connection.

Ife, the supposed father of Benin wasn't mentioned at all for 400 years of Benin eyewitness documented history. Every other places far and near were mentioned, from Warri to Lagos but Ife the supposed ancestral home land is missing.

Just Imagine the lies and nonsense.

samuk:


The reason the Yoruba are always desperate to link Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife to Benin is because the documentation of Yoruba history started proper in the 1800s, 400 years late compared to Benin and to bridge this gap they find a way to link Ife to Benin, in modern times, after the lost of Benin empire, the Benin Palace also benefit from this arrangement because it puts the Oba of Benin above all Yoruba Obas.

The story goes like this, Oduduwa to Oranmiyan to first Oba of Benin to first Alaafin of Oyo and the Ooni is their chief priest then others. This is pure politics without historical evidence to back it up.

The Yoruba use Benin to shore up their history earlier than 1800s while the Oba of Benin retains seniority.

But I guess awolowo spoilt this plan when he elevated the ooni status to number one on the list.. Lol

TAO11:
People dispute granular details such as why did so-and-so happen.

We don’t dispute details such as was there a civil war or not.

We are disputing if there was Benin/Ife relationship prior to 1800s because Ife is not mentioned in Benin history prior to 1800s. It's safe to say there is no written eyewitness evidence to backup Benin/Ife relationship before 1800s. If you have such written evidence, we are waiting.

Truthshots:


I never claimed that the first Oba of Benin never existed. Actually, just by mathematical reasoning, you would prove that the first Oba of Benin existed. But that is where logics ends, anything else being told about the first Oba of Benin is just pure fiction.

I am not claiming that things which were not captured by history didn't exist. I am only informing you that the story which you are hearing is a myth !


You can look at past events like a black box in which something is happening but you can't access what is happening unless it is brought to you by a note left by people who were in that box.

I don't know how to make this clearer.
Being smart ain't easy.

I understand you perfectly

Fezz:


But I guess awolowo spoilt this plan when he elevated the ooni status to number one on the list.. Lol

Tribalism got the better of then Yoruba elites , the reason the Oba of Benin lead mid west out of the western region in 1963.

,

TAO11:
Exactly! Just as there is no account that the following supposed oba have anything to do with Benin kingdom.

Eweka I, Uwuakhuahen, Ehenmihen, Ewedo, Oguola, Edoni, Udagbedo, Ohen, Egbeka, Orobiru, Uwaifiokun, Ewuare I, Ezoti, Olua, Ozolua, Esigie, Orhogbua, Ehengbuda, Ohuan, Ohenzae, Akenkpaye, Akengbedo, Ore-Oghene, Ewuakpe, Ozuere, Akenzua I, Eresoyen, Akengbuda, Obanosa, Ogbebo, and Osemwende.

The EuRoPeAnS tHat sTudY BeNiN hIsToRy fOuNd nO hIsToRiCaL connection LiNkInG bEnIN hIsToRy wItH any of the above-listed names iN tHe FiRsT 400 yEaRs (1400s - 1800s) oF EuRoPeAnS eYeWiTnEsS dOcUmEnTaTiOn oF BeNiN hIsToRy.

Are you aware of this? And what do you honestly concluded from this fact? LMAO!

Moreover, there are other evidence (apart from writing) which links the foregoing names to Benin kingdom.

These evidence are called multiple independence verbal corroboration which all say virtually the same thing.

Similarly, there are other evidence (hard evidence in fact) which establishes the subservience of Benin to Ife since the 1300s at least.

(1) https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/9#96323798

(2) https://www.nairaland.com/6087424/benin-ife-myth-shouldnt-circulated#93803726

LOL Tao.. this is a long list of renowned obas. It's hard to believe they never existed because there are multiple historic sources that talk about the likes of Oba ozolua the great. It's even written under Esan history and they have it detailed.

Fezz:
In respect to your post, I have some observations

I was simply equipping you for the brainwashing from your brothers. You will see my point.

1) It's only logical for the Benin royal house to change title from ogiso to another title (such as oba) because the ogisos came from a uniquestion lineage known as "kings of the sky". The ogiso bloodline was revered and special. Now, a benin prince came back to ruse his people known as oranmiyan, but the Benin chiefs could not give him the revered title of ogiso because they figured his blood was tainted with a foreign blood because they feared his mother wasn't from igodomigodo despite them knowing his father was Ekaledehan (oduduwa). So it's only normal for them to name him with a different title as "oba".. which practically almost means the same thing as ogiso in Benin language.

Why change if it’s still the same blood line? Lol.

2)when your supposed oduduwa came from the sky and landed in ile-Ife, he didn't change the name. He met it as ile-Ife and it remained as ile-Ife... so it makes no sense to think that oranmiyan had to change the name of igodomigodo to Ubini later changed to Benin by the portuguese. Besides Ubinui has always been the name ascribed to igodomigodo by the itsekiris since before oranmiyan stepped a foot in igodomigodo. Ile- ibinu was given by oranmiyan but it's completely different from Ubini. It was the itsekiris that told the Portuguese about Ubini and the Portuguese later corrupted it to Benin. So you can't ascribe the name "Benin" to oranmiyan because he's not the originator

Just as Ogiso Igodo didn’t truly sky-dive from heaven to Benin-City round-about (even though your people insist so); Oduduwa similarly didn’t literally descend from heaven.

These are basic romanticization of the details of great historical personages found everywhere in the world.

Alexander the Great, despite being a historical personage, is stongly held till date to have two horns and given birth to by one of the gods.

Show me the evidence of where Itsekiris call Igodomigido as Ubini prior to Oranmiyan.

Also, the change of name from Igodomigido to Ibini by Oranmiyan is according to your history. I didn’t come up with your history.

3) I truly believe that Ekaledehan is the same person as oduduwa because it's only logical for the Benin chiefs to bring back their son of the soil to rule over them. It's impossible for a proud Benin tribe to bring a complete stranger to rule over them. I don't think you know how proud Benin people are when it comes to their royal stool. I know you won't agree with me but this is just common logic and facts.

It doesn’t matter what you tRuLy BeLiEvE.

This is history not faith, and historians have debunked such equation as nonsense.

Accept the obvious information from the classical received tradition of Benin history. Yorubas won’t bully you if you do. You will only be bullied if you don’t. Lol.

Secondly, Ife was just an upcoming name at that time, why would the mighty igodomigodo go to Ife of all places to find a king to lead them instead of other nearby kingdoms. It doesn't just add up.

Historical evidence please?

Or should I accept this because you only forge what is true. Lol.

TAO11:
Trying hard to sound intelligent? LMAO.

Anyways, the past was passed down to us from successive generations who were eyewitness to it.

But without writing their history down don't you think they would have omitted little details or subconsciously mixed folklore to the history. That's the point he's trying to make and I agree

samuk:


Tribalism got the better of then Yoruba elites , the reason the Oba of Benin lead mid west out of the western region in 1963.

This makes perfect sense. This triggered the oba of Benin to create the Midwest

Fezz:
LOL Tao.. this is a long list of renowned obas. It's hard to believe they never existed because there are multiple historic sources that talk about the likes of Oba ozolua the great. It's even written under Esan history and they have it detailed.

I’m simply asking you to be consistent — in other words:

If you must demand writings (between 1400 and 1799) that specifically spells the following names in relation to Benin kingdom:

Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife

(2) Then you must also be consistent enough to demand writings (between 1400 and 1850) that specifically spells out the following names in relation to Benin kingdom:

Eweka I, Uwuakhuahen, Ehenmihen, Ewedo, Oguola, Edoni, Udagbedo, Ohen, Egbeka, Orobiru, Uwaifiokun, Ewuare I, Ezoti, Olua, Ozolua, Esigie, Orhogbua, Ehengbuda, Ohuan, Ohenzae, Akenkpaye, Akengbedo, Ore-Oghene, Ewuakpe, Ozuere, Akenzua I, Eresoyen, Akengbuda, Obanosa, Ogbebo, and Osemwende.


While there is no such writing, you proceed to want to accept one and reject the other.

You see my point about inconsistency now?
—————————
Moreover, there are stronger evidence for the existence of the Ife-Benin relationship.

The Ife/Benin relationship has some early-textual, has multiple-source verbal, and above all has archaeological evidence.

The name, Ewuare I & Co./Benin relationship, on the other hand, has only multiple-source verbal evidence — which is sufficient though.

My point is about consistency.

TAO11:
I was simply equipping you for the brainwashing from your brothers. You will see my point.

Why change if it’s still the same blood line? Lol.

Just as Ogiso Igodo didn’t truly sky-dive from heaven to Benin-City round-about (even though your people insist so); Oduduwa similarly didn’t literally descend from heaven.

These are basic romanticization of the details of great historical personages found everywhere in the world.

Alexander the Great, despite being a historical personage, is stongly held till date to have two horns and given birth to by one of the gods.

Show me the evidence of where Itsekiris call Igodomigido as Ubini prior to Oranmiyan.

Also, the change of name from Igodomigido to Ibini by Oranmiyan is according to your history. I didn’t come up with your history.


It doesn’t matter what you tRuLy BeLiEvE.

This is history not faith, and historians have debunked such equation as nonsense.

Accept the obvious information from the classical received tradition of Benin history. Yorubas won’t bully you if you do. You will only be bullied if you don’t. Lol.

Historical evidence please?

Or should I accept this because you only forge what is true. Lol.

Well.. the bloodline was a bit tainted because oranmiyans mother was probably an outcast. He didn't have an igodomigo mother despite his father coming from igodomigo. Both parents had to be from igodomigo and that is why they where known as kings of the sky

Ogiso igodo was never known to fall from the sky. He is called the king of the sky because he was perceived as a king blessed by the gods with godly attributes.

Fezz:

But without writing their history down don't you think they would have omitted little details or subconsciously mixed folklore to the history. That's the point he's trying to make and I agree

Absolutely!

Little details, not wholesale overhaul like your brothers are deceptively trying hard to push.

An entire generation of Benin citizens could not have been collectively dumb or collectively fraudulent, or could they?

Would you jump on your brothers’ fraud to reject the names from Eweka I to Osemwende as having nothing to do with Benin history — just because there is no record of any such person from their times?

Maintain a consistent energy.

Fezz:
Well.. the bloodline was a bit tainted because oranmiyans mother was probably an outcast. He didn't have an igodomigo mother despite his father coming from igodomigo. Both parents had to be from igodomigo and that is why they where known as kings of the sky

Because Oranmiyan’s mother-line was not Igodomigido, hence the same Oranmiyan was allowed to change status-quo — please make this make sense.

Anyways, historians have already debunked this as nonsense. Oduduwa is not your Ekealederhan historians concluded.

Ogiso igodo was never known to fall from the sky. He is called the king of the sky because he was perceived as a king blessed by the gods with godly attributes.

Well, he was according to your own traditional account.

But that’s obviously not historically accurate. It is a romanticization of the life of a great person, just as Oduduwa and Alexander the Great.

samuk:


Tribalism got the better of then Yoruba elites , the reason the Oba of Benin lead mid west out of the western region in 1963.

According to the records which I read, Oba Eweka 2 (the son of Oba Ovonramwen) was already trying to leave the western region, he couldn't archive that in his life time but his son Oba Akenzua 2 took over from him and archived it.

The thing with the Yoruba is that they saw themselves as being the step children of britain, and they saw Nigeria as being a British product so they felt entitled to it and everybody else had no rights in their eyes.
Anyways, this thread is not about the Yoruba. This derailment has gone long enough.

samuk:

We are disputing if there was Benin/Ife relationship prior to 1800s because Ife is not mentioned in Benin history prior to 1800s. It's safe to say there is no written eyewitness evidence to backup Benin/Ife relationship before 1800s. If you have such written evidence, we are waiting.

TAO11:

I’m simply asking you to be consistent — in other words:

If you must demand writings (between 1400 and 1799) that specifically spells the following names in relation to Benin kingdom:

Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife

(2) Then you must also be consistent enough to demand writings (between 1400 and 1850) that specifically spells out the following names in relation to Benin kingdom:

Eweka I, Uwuakhuahen, Ehenmihen, Ewedo, Oguola, Edoni, Udagbedo, Ohen, Egbeka, Orobiru, Uwaifiokun, Ewuare I, Ezoti, Olua, Ozolua, Esigie, Orhogbua, Ehengbuda, Ohuan, Ohenzae, Akenkpaye, Akengbedo, Ore-Oghene, Ewuakpe, Ozuere, Akenzua I, Eresoyen, Akengbuda, Obanosa, Ogbebo, and Osemwende.


While there is no such writing, you proceed to want to accept one and reject the other.

You see my point about inconsistency now?
—————————
Moreover, there are stronger evidence for the existence of the Ife-Benin relationship.

The Ife/Benin relationship has some early-textual, has multiple-source verbal, and above all has archaeological evidence.

The name, Ewuare I & Co./Benin relationship, on the other hand, has only multiple-source verbal evidence — which is sufficient though.

My point is about consistency.

Fezz:


This makes perfect sense. This triggered the oba of Benin to create the Midwest

The Yorubas couldn't keep to the gentle man agreement. If the Benin throne was actually related to Ife, there wouldn't have been the need to pull out of the Western region.

Truthshots:
[s]According to the records which I read, Oba Eweka 2 (the son of Oba Ovonramwen) was already trying to live the western region, he couldn't archive that in his life time but his son Oba Akenzua 2 took over from him and archived it.

The thing with the Yoruba s is that they saw themselves as being the step children of britain, and they saw Nigeria as being a British product so they felt entitled to it and everybody else had no rights in their eyes[/s]

Actually, there was no Western Region yet when Oba Eweka 2 was alive. LMAO!

Jude, what’s happening to you today?

TAO11:
Because Oranmiyan’s mother-line was not Igodomigido, hence the same Oranmiyan was allowed to change status-quo — please make this make sense.

Anyways, historians have already debunked this as nonsense. Oduduwa is not your Ekealederhan historians concluded.

Well, he was according to your own traditional account.

But that’s obviously not historically accurate. It is a romanticization of the life of a great person, just as Oduduwa and Alexander the Great.

The same way there's no written document to prove the Ekaledehan story is the same as you not being able to prove where oduduwa truly came from. If I may ask, from your own studies, where did oduduwa come from and is there any written document (no revionists) to back your claims up?

To every Edo person, I would kindly advise you to not entertain the trolls. By merely talking to them, you are boosting their ego.
They are beneath you and they know it. That is why they want to rub shoulders with you.
You don't need to talk to a Yoruba obsessed with Benin, the obese and obsessed Yoruba need to seek medical and psychiatric help, you don't need to engage the crazies.

You don't need to talk to delusional stalkers.
Let the crazies engage the air or the walls or whatever, you don't need to degrade yourself by becoming an interlocutor to a mad obese person who would otherwise be talking to thin air.

TAO11:
Because Oranmiyan’s mother-line was not Igodomigido, hence the same Oranmiyan was allowed to change status-quo — please make this make sense.

Anyways, historians have already debunked this as nonsense. Oduduwa is not your Ekealederhan historians concluded.

Well, he was according to your own traditional account.

But that’s obviously not historically accurate. It is a romanticization of the life of a great person, just as Oduduwa and Alexander the Great.

If I may ask, what status quo did Oranmiyan change. The oba ship title followed the blue print of the ogisos. Nothing in particular changed. Please enlighten me.

Note: Oranmiyan did not change the name Igodomigido to Benin if this is the status quo you are talking about.