TAO11:

If Lagos or Eko can be found in Benin history as early as 1603, why should we be unable to find Ife considering the significant relationship Ife was supposed to have with Benin in the same period.

It is purely logical question to ask.

Truthshots:


According to the records which I read, Oba Eweka 2 (the son of Oba Ovonramwen) was already trying to live the western region, he couldn't archive that in his life time but his son Oba Akenzua 2 took over from him and archived it.

The thing with the Yoruba is that they saw themselves as being the step children of britain, and they saw Nigeria as being a British product so they felt entitled to it and everybody else had no rights in their eyes.
Anyways, this thread is not about the Yoruba. This derailment has gone long enough.

You are right, the yorubas felt they were favoured and they made the best use of it. Benin suffered the brunt by the brits. Such is life

samuk:


The Yorubas couldn't keep to the gentle man agreement. If the Benin throne was actually related to Ife, there wouldn't have been the need to pull out of the Western region.

There was obviously no strong connection between the two, and that's why it was easy to get separated. I belive the Oba made the best choice for his people because of marginalisation

Fezz:
The same way there's no written document to prove the Ekaledehan story is the same as you not being able to prove where oduduwa truly came from.

Lol. No, I didn’t say Ekaladerhan didn’t exist.

Rather, Ekaladerhan is not Oduduwa is what I said. Big difference!

Is that my personal conclusion? No! That’s historians of precolonial Benin history talking.

Did they come to the conclusion because “there is no written document”? No!

In fact, their conclusion is based on the received Benin classical traditions which disallows the Izoduwa narrative.

If I may ask, from your own studies, where did oduduwa come from and is there any written document (no revionists) to back your claims up?

When the Benin man is debunked he asks about Oduduwa. Lol.

I don’t do historically studies, historians do. I don’t pretend to have expertise in what I don’t.

The consensus of historical scholarship in the word today is that Oduduwa is a Yoruba man from Ife.

Fezz:
There was obviously no strong connection between the two, and that's why it was easy to get separated. I belive the Oba made the best choice for his people because of marginalisation

Yorubas marginalized Benins. Wonderful!

It’s becoming clearer where the bitterness, bigotry, hate, and distortions are coming from.

TAO11:
Lol. No, I didn’t say Ekaladerhan didn’t exist.

Rather, Ekaladerhan is not Oduduwa is what I had said. Big difference!

Is that my personal conclusion? No! That’s historians of precolonial Benin history talking.

Did they come to the conclusion because “there is no written document”? No!

In fact, their conclusion is based on the received Benin classical traditions which disallows the Izoduwa narrative.

When the Benin man is debunked he asks about Oduduwa. Lol.

I don’t do historically studies, historians do. I don’t pretend to have expertise in what I don’t.

The consensus of historical scholarship in the word today is that Oduduwa is a Yoruba man from Ife.

In other words, there is no proof of where oduduwa originated from. Which means that if he came from mecca it simply means all Yoruba royal stools are from mecca as well and not from Yoruba land. Case closed

Are you afraid to leave my comment undeleted?

samuk:
If Lagos or Eko can be found in Benin history as early as 1603, why should we be unable to find Ife considering the significant relationship Ife was supposed to have with Benin in the same period.

It is purely logical question to ask.

First of all, the name Èkó was not found in any Benin history as early as 1603. Don’t be a fraud!

Secondly, in case you’re wondering, Lagos is located on the Atlantic Coast of West Africa, Ife isn’t.

The early Europeans visited by waterways, they didn’t land at airports. Lol.

Also, there are evidences which are more concrete than writings which dates the Ife-Benin relationship to at least c. 1300.


Having said that:

iF LaGoS cAn bE fOund iN BeNiN hIsTorY aS EaRlY aS 1603, wHy sHoUlD wE bE uNAbLe tO fInD Onitsha cOnSiDeRinG tHeSiGnIfIcAnT rELaTiOnShIp Onitsha wAs SuPpOsEd tO hAvE wItH bEnIn iN tHe SaMe PeRiod.

iT iS pUrElY LOgIcAL qUeStIoN tO aSk.

Also, iF LaGoS cAn bE fOund iN BeNiN hIsTorY aS EaRlY aS 1603, wHy sHoUlD wE bE uNAbLe tO fInD the some of the following names cOnSiDeRinG tHe SiGnIfIcAnT rELaTiOnShIp these names are SuPpOsEd tO hAvE wItH bEnIn iN tHe SaMe PeRiod:

Eweka I, Uwuakhuahen, Ehenmihen, Ewedo, Oguola, Edoni, Udagbedo, Ohen, Egbeka, Orobiru, Uwaifiokun, Ewuare I, Ezoti, Olua, Ozolua, Esigie, Orhogbua, Ehengbuda, Ohuan, Ohenzae, Akenkpaye, Akengbedo, Ore-Oghene, Ewuakpe, Ozuere, Akenzua I, Eresoyen, Akengbuda, Obanosa, Ogbebo, and Osemwende.

Fezz:
In other words, there is no proof of where oduduwa originated from.

Where did I tell you that?

You’re super eager to have you dreams come true.

Which means that if he came from mecca it simply means all Yoruba royal stools are from mecca as well and not from Yoruba land. Case closed

You were probably replying someone else’s comment.

Here is my comment again.

“The consensus of historical scholarship in the word today is that Oduduwa is a Yoruba man from Ife.”

Now you see where you’re so off? So, try again!

TAO11:
Yorubas marginalized Benin’s. Wonderful!

It’s becoming clearer where the distortions, hate, and bigotry is coming from.

Oh.. was this meant to be a secret. It's littered every where on the cyber space.

TAO11:
Where did I tell you that?

You’re super eager to have you dreams come true.

You were probably replying someone else’s comment.

Here is my comment again. Now see where you’re so off.

“The consensus of historical scholarship in the word today is that Oduduwa is a Yoruba man from Ife.”

If you have proof of oduduwa coming from ife, kindly share it with us.

Fezz:


Oh.. was this meant to be a secret. It's littered every where on the cyber space.

Okay, thanks for reinforcing my knowledge of where the modern revisionism your people is coming from.

Thanks also to historians who dealt you all a huge blow.

Fezz:
If you have proof of oduduwa coming from ife, kindly share it with us.

I am hoping that what you mean by “proof“ is NOT (1) a video documentary of his birth-moment/infancy at Ife, or (2) a picture of his birth-moment/infancy at Ife, or (3) his original birth certificate (or any document from his time, bearing his name and place of birth).

If none of this is what you mean by “proof,” then I am happy to inform you that there is historical proof of his Ife roots — the same type of proof which satisfies your curiosity for the existence of the following persons:

Eweka I, Uwuakhuahen, Ehenmihen, Ewedo, Oguola, Edoni, Udagbedo, Ohen, Egbeka, Orobiru, Uwaifiokun, Ewuare I, Ezoti, Olua, Ozolua, Esigie, Orhogbua, Ehengbuda, Ohuan, Ohenzae, Akenkpaye, Akengbedo, Ore-Oghene, Ewuakpe, Ozuere, Akenzua I, Eresoyen, Akengbuda, Obanosa, Ogbebo, and Osemwende.

Should I now proceed to cite you the scholarly historical consensus of Oduduwa’s Ife roots as received from the Yoruba’s own traditional narrative?

TAO11:
I am hoping that what you mean by “proof“ is NOT (1) a video documentary of his infancy at Ife, or (2) a picture of his birth moment at Ife, or (3) his original birth certificate (or any document from his time, bearing his name and place of birth).

If none of this is what you mean by “proof“, then I am happy to inform you that there is historical proof of his Ife roots, just as the same type of proof that satisfies your curiosity for the existence of the following individuals:

Eweka I, Uwuakhuahen, Ehenmihen, Ewedo, Oguola, Edoni, Udagbedo, Ohen, Egbeka, Orobiru, Uwaifiokun, Ewuare I, Ezoti, Olua, Ozolua, Esigie, Orhogbua, Ehengbuda, Ohuan, Ohenzae, Akenkpaye, Akengbedo, Ore-Oghene, Ewuakpe, Ozuere, Akenzua I, Eresoyen, Akengbuda, Obanosa, Ogbebo, and Osemwende.

Should I now proceed to cite you the scholarly historical consensus of Oduduwa’s Ife roots as received from the Yoruba’s own traditional narrative?

A written document from 1800+ will do, thank you..

Fezz:
A written document from 1800+ will do, thank you..

There is no documentation of the traditional narrative from the 1800+ (that I know of).

And who sets the year 1800+ as the definition of truth?
———————

A Gentle Reminder:
Nnamdi Azikwe’s autobiography with which you all love to connect Benin to Onitsha is from the 1900s.

However, the same Azikwe has an historical essay (also from the 1900s) which contradicts the above.

Fezz:
If I may ask, what status quo did Oranmiyan change. The oba ship title followed the blue print of the ogisos. Nothing in particular changed. Please enlighten me.

Note: Oranmiyan did not change the name Igodomigido to Benin if this is the status quo you are talking about.

Change of name from Igodomigodo to Benin.

Change of title from Ogiso to Oba.

All according to your own history, not according to me.

According to you, he had the authority to make all these changes (and more) because his mother-line was not Igodomigodo.

His mother-line must be really powerful. Otherwise, make it make sense please.

—————-
A Gentle Reminder:
Oduduwa is not your Ekeladerhan. Historians have concluded and debunked your people’s fraud.

Fezz:
But I guess awolowo spoilt this plan when he elevated the ooni status to number one on the list.. Lol

Consider the attachments below, and riddle me how aWoLoWo was doing eLeVaTiOn wonders even before he himself was born. LMAO!

Reference:
The Editor, “Native Crowns,” Journal of the Royal African Society, Vol. 2, No. 7 (Apr., 1903), pp. 312-314.

TAO11:
Change of name from Igodomigodo to Benin.

Change of title from Ogiso to Oba.

All according to your own history, not according to me.

According to you, he had the authority to make all these changes (and more) because his mother-line was not Igodomigodo.

His mother-line must be really powerful. Otherwise, make it make sense please.

—————-
A Gentle Reminder:
Oduduwa is not your Ekeladerhan. Historians have concluded and debunked your people’s fraud.

You are making it sound as if it was easy for him to make such changes on the get go.. don't forget that neither oranminyan nor eweka were allowed to rule from inside Benin because the ogiamiens gave him a tough time. It took decades before the Oba-ship lineage could change status quo... and like I stated earlier, it was not oranmiyan that changed the name of Igodomigodo to Benin. The itsekiris are responsible for this when they told the Portuguese about ubini.

Fezz:
You are making it sound as if it was easy for him to make such changes on the get go.. don't forget that neither oranminyan nor eweka were allowed to rule from inside Benin because the ogiamiens gave him a tough time. It took decades before the Oba-ship lineage could change status quo...

He was able to make changes because his mother was from a different line.

That is the absurd statement of yours which you have to make sense of; or denounce.

Saying he didn’t do it very easily is actually begging the question and entangling yourself even further.

and like I stated earlier, it was not oranmiyan that changed the name of Igodomigodo to Benin. The itsekiris are responsible for this when they told the Portuguese about ubini.

It is not what you say that matters. How many times must I remind you of this?

It is the received Benin tradition that matters, and it agrees with me that Oranmiyan changed the name from Igodomigido to ‘Benin’.

Please convince me to ignore the received tradition and focus on you instead.

Also, provide me the historical reference of how the Itsekiris changed the name from Igodomigodo to ‘Benin’.

Wait, do you even listen to yourself? Didn’t Portuguese visit Benin for the first time in the late 1400s??

Wasn’t the name already changed centuries before then if your received tradition is anything to go by ??

TAO11:
He was able to make changes because his mother was from a different line.

That is the absurd statement that you have to make sense of; or denounce it.

Saying he didn’t do it very easily is actually begging the question and entangling yourself even further.

It is not what you say that matters. How many times must I remind you of this?

It is the received Benin tradition that matters, and it agrees with me that Oranmiyan changed the name from Igodomigido to Benin.

Please convince me to ignore the received tradition and focus on you instead.

Also, provide me the evidence of when Itsekiri changed the name from Igodomigodo to Benin.

Wait, do you even listen to yourself? Didn’t Portuguese visit Benin for the first time in the late 1400s?

Wasn’t the name already changed by then if your received tradition anything to go by.

Igodomigodo was know as Ubini until the Portuguese arrived in 1400+ and corrupted the name to Benin.

TAO11:
Consider the attachments belo, and riddle aWoLoWo was doing eLeVaTiOn wonders even before he himself was born. LMAO!

Reference:
The Editor, “Native Crowns,” Journal of the Royal African Society, Vol. 2, No. 7 (Apr., 1903), pp. 312-314.

The ooni was a spiritual leader to the yoruba kings. The poltical plot had already began at this time to connect the bini King to the Yorubas. When awolowo came on stage, he solidified the position of the ooni as the leader and displaced the alaafin of oyo.

Fezz:
Igodomigodo was know as Ubini until the Portuguese arrived in 1400+ and corrupted the name to Benin.

You’re still going in circles.

You have to cite the historical reference which says it was the Itsekiris who changed Igodomigodo to Ubini.

Your received traditions says it was Oranmiyan who changed the name from Igodomigido to Ibinu.

Also, it wasn’t the Portuguese who transformed the name to “Benin”. Sorry!

Wait! Why are you kind of suggesting that you must be believed without evidence?

Fezz:
As earlier stated by samuk earlier, the politcal plot to connect the bini Kingdom to the yorubas had already commenced at this point.

Wait! I thought you said aWoLoWo elevated the Ooni to number 1.

Now goalpost shifted when we saw Ooni already as number 1 from time immemorial — at least before aWoLoWo was born. LMAO!

Yes, it’s difficult to defend lies. You must be feeling hot now.

Modified:
No, there is no evidence of any imagined political plot, it was your own people who insisted adamantly to the EUrOpEaNs that Benin kings were descended from Ife.

Moreover, hard evidence (in archaeological artifacts) exist which dates the Ife-Benin connection to at least c.1300.

Fezz:
•••When awolowo came on stage, he solidified the position of the ooni as the leader and displaced the alaafin of oyo.

Ooni was the number 1 before Awolowo was born.

Is there any reason why you’re dead-scared to read the papers I attached and see this for yourself?

Does it make any sense to you that an individual’s position be changed from number 1 to number 1?? Does that make any human sense to you?

Are you so engrossed in your dreams that you’re not capable of perceiving reality?

Modified:
Also, the Alaafin was not displaced, he only maintained his second position.

And even Benin kings agree to such age-long ranking as can be seen in an information availed to the colonial officer, H. L. Ward-Price by Oba Eweka 2 during his visit to the Oba. Ward-Price writes and I quote:

“Following the Oba, I went through a heavy Iroko door, which opened into a long, narrow, corridor-like room, with a tall window at the other end. He showed me a brass crucifix which was attached to a cord around his neck, and waited and waited for the first rays of the day to illumine the window, when he pressed the crucifix to his forehead, and prayed for the Oni of Ife, the Alafin of Oyo and the Oba of Benin (that is himself); after which he prayed for all the other Yoruba kings. This had for long been the custom, he said, whether the Oba was a Christian or not.”

Reference: H. L. Ward-Price, “Dark Subjects,” Jarrolds Ltd, London, 1939, p. 238.

Fezz:
The ooni was a spiritual leader to the yoruba kings. •••

You keep editing in new details into your comment. Lol.

All Yoruba kings (and Benin kings) are spiritual entities or demi-deities — Ikeji Õsa as we call them.

In other words, they wield both political as well as spiritual authority over their subjects.

In fact, the aspect of the Ooni’s authority which was specifically detailed in that paper is his political authority.

That is, his authority to confer political right (i.e. right to kingship) on other Yoruba kings. He is the head-king hands down.

I ask again, is there any reason why you’re dead-scared to read the papers I attached and see this for yourself?

Or are you so engrossed in your dreams that you’re not capable of perceiving reality?

TAO11:
Consider the attachments below, and riddle me how aWoLoWo was doing eLeVaTiOn wonders even before he himself was born. LMAO!

Reference:
The Editor, “Native Crowns,” Journal of the Royal African Society, Vol. 2, No. 7 (Apr., 1903), pp. 312-314.

I'm sorry to say, but this doesn't add up. For over 400 years that the Europeans wrote down the history of the benins, the word "ife" never came up once in connection with the Benin Kingdom. Why did this document come up in 1903 after the colonial system was already taking shape. This document was probably fabricated for political reason during the colonial era.

Fezz:


I'm sorry to say, but this doesn't add up. For over 400 years that the Europeans wrote down the history of the benins, the word "ife" never came up once in connection with the Benin Kingdom. Why did this document come up in 1903 after the colonial system was already taking shape. This document was probably fabricated for political reason during the colonial era.

You are solidly on point. Any further debate is a waste of time. The European did Benin a great favour by leaving us 400 years written eyewitness historical accounts which aid us in disproving any modern day forgery, fallacies and fabrications that are based on politics and not history. Benin are probably the only people that can detect these frauds due to these earlier documents, others are not so lucky.

When Ooni and other traditional rulers visited London in the 1950s to discuss the matter of independence, he was reported by British press as the spiritual head of some 3 million Yoruba people, he wasn't reported as the king. There is great difference between a king of a people and the chief priest or spiritual head of the people.

You are right, it was when Awolowo became the premier of western region he consolidated both the position of the spiritual head and most senior western Nigeria king into one and the Ooni was the beneficiary. That was not the only confusion or abuse of power Awolowo did, he also created problems in Warri by elevating the Olu of Itsekiri to Olu of the entire Warri amongst several others of abuse of his power.

The Oba of Benin and his other Delta people saw the handwriting on the wall and pulled all strings to get out of the western region as soon it was possible, only three years after independence. Mid Western people remains the only people in Nigeria that were able to archive this fit.

Now that it appears that some sort of restructuring of Nigeria is inevitable, we must be wearing and on our guard against those our neighbours that are drawing their future Oduduwa or Biafra maps to include Edo and Delta communities.

Edo and Delta have no relationship with either the west or the east, everyone must stay in their region.

Does anybody know one thing or two about set theory ?
I am writing a book on set theory, it is quite incredible to say the least.

Introduction of function symbols to LST and transfinite recursion are a wonderful thing.

Fezz:
I'm sorry to say, but this doesn't add up. For over 400 years that the Europeans wrote down the history of the benins, the word "ife" never came up once in connection with the Benin Kingdom. Why did this document come up in 1903 after the colonial system was already taking shape. This document was probably fabricated for political reason during the colonial era.

First of all written connections of Benin with Ife (by the EUrOpEaNs) exists prior to 1903 in case you were implying the contrary.

That said, now to the actual refutation:

Your reliance on the word “probably” to make your point makes you sound like: ‘I have zero proof of what I’m talking about, but I am pressed to write something.’ Lol.

In essence, you seek to refute certainty with ‘probably’. Return back here whenever you have certainty (backed with proof) over what you wish to defend.

In other words, anyone could come up with any claim whatsoever and then hide under the word “probably,” and yet insist to gullible like-minds that he has a valid claim.

For example, one could claim Benin probably never had a king until Ovaranmwen’s time because all the writings which seem to imply otherwise are “probably” all made-up by Europeans since they have always had an agenda to take over Africa.

Notice how anything is fair if common sense is thrown out of a discussion. Consistency is key, lad. Binis must urgently appreciate the concept of consistency.

Having said that, the Ooni of Ife was invited to Lagos to adjudicate if a certain self-imposed king was rightfully entitled to such high office.

And that paper published in 1903 (before aWoLoWo’s birth) by the Oxford University Press clearly informs every sane and consistent mind of the Ooni’s capacity as the ever-leading monarch of the Yoruba and Benin kings.

Having said that, consider the two important points below:

(1) For over 400 years that the Europeans wrote down the history of the Benins, these names (i.e. Eweka I, Uwuakhuahen, Ehenmihen, Ewedo, Oguola, Edoni, Udagbedo, Ohen, Egbeka, Orobiru, Uwaifiokun, Ewuare I, Ezoti, Olua, Ozolua, Esigie, Orhogbua, Ehengbuda, Ohuan, Ohenzae, Akenkpaye, Akengbedo, Ore-Oghene, Ewuakpe, Ozuere, Akenzua I, Eresoyen, Akengbuda, Obanosa, Ogbebo, and Osemwende) never came up once in connection with Benin Kingdom.

(2) For over 400 years that the Europeans wrote down the history of the Benins, the word "Onitsha" never came up once in connection with Benin Kingdom.

(3) Unlike these two points above, there are other more concrete evidence than writings and verbal accounts (i.e. evidence from archaeology) which connects Benin kingdom back to Ife since at least 700 years ago. See links below:

(I) https://www.nairaland.com/6087424/benin-ife-myth-shouldnt-circulated#93803726

(II) https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/9#96323798

Truthshots:
Does anybody know one thing or two about set theory ?
I am writing a book on set theory, it is quite incredible to say the least.

Truthshots:
Introduction of function symbols to LST and transfinite recursion are a wonderful thing.

In other words you’re saying:

‘People! Please believe my dumb Nairaland comments because I can hopefully write a book, and I can Google Math terms and type them here.’ LMAO!

How old are you, Jude?

TAO11:
You keep editing in new details into your comment. Lol.

All Yoruba kings (and Benin kings) are spiritual entities or demi-deities — Ikeji Õsa as we call them.

In other words, they wield both political as well as spiritual authority over their subjects.

In fact, the aspect of the Ooni’s authority which was specifically detailed in that paper is his political authority.

That is, his authority to confer political right (i.e. right to kingship) on other Yoruba kings. He is the head-king hands down.

I ask again, is there any reason why you’re dead-scared to read the papers I attached and see this for yourself?

Or are you so engrossed in your dreams that you’re not capable of perceiving reality?

TAO.. the ooni was summoned to lagos as regards to coronation and kingship matters. He's a spiritual leader and he was in the best position to testify on which kings should wear beaded crowns. That is more of a spiritual leader and not a political leader. If he was summoned in respect to identifying which king has so and so plots of land, then I would say he is a political leader.

On the other hand, Awolowo was the person that elevated the Ooni status from being the spiritual head of Yoruba kings to also becoming the political overall head. Only Awolowo knows why he made that decision.

Fezz:


TAO.. the ooni was summoned to lagos as regards to coronation and kingship matters. He's a spiritual leader and he was in the best position to testify on which kings should wear beaded crowns. That is more of a spiritual leader and not a political leader. If he was summoned in respect to identifying which king has so and so plots of land, then I would say he is a political leader.

On the other hand, Awolowo was the person that elevated the Ooni status from being the spiritual head of Yoruba kings to also becoming the political overall head. Only Awolowo knows why he made that decision.

The Oni of IFA was summoned because he was a British puppet who would play whatever tune the British wrote down. And if you just take a look at that Oni of IFA who got summoned you will see that the guy was a common native doctor.
I read what that foolish Oni said and it was full with ignorance and aberrations and stupidity.
The guy was an illiterate and a dumb delusional fool.