@Papido

I am still waiting for your response.

Hey, Earswide, I was surprised to see your last thread that you were awaiting my response. That's flattering. Really, i find it very difficult to sustain this arguments simply because it took me years to arrive at what i have accepted as my beliefs and it will be difficult to expalin them in details in a few threads.However, i will attempt o answer a few of your questions BECAUSE YOU ASKED. 

EarsWide:

@Papido

Thanks for your response.
If we both agree that holiness is not synonymous with wealth - then why does Oyedepo talk about 'covenant seed sowing'. I have listened to him say that prayers and fasting wont bring prosperity but that tithing/giving can.

I am happy you said tithing/giving 'can' not 'will'. If he promised and it failed, then we can call him a fraud. However, every promise in scripture commits man to carry out other responsibilities before the promise can be actualized. Even Jesus always said be it unto you according to your faith. Many lazy people expect the pastor to complete the miracle for them but there is a part that the seeker of miracle must perform. It is true that any smart person can be rich but there are different kinds of wealth. The divine type (God given, not self achieved) brings along with it a few fringe benefits like (peace of mind, security and long life). I cannot speak for others but i can speak for myself. In 2009 December during shiloh, i felt it impressed on my spirit to sow a seed of N50k (meant for my PhD field work) to church despite the fact that i needed that money badly. I did. In just one month, I won a research grant of over $3,000 (about N450k) from Sweden. I could decide to do my PhD in my own strength but i followed my heart and i got the work finished sweatlessly. I didnt sow that money because he told me to. I did because he called for an offering and my spirit agreed that i do so. However, about 4years prior to this, i heard him preach and i sowed my entire month's salary because i got carried away and nothing happened. It was the same thing he said in 2004 that he said in 2009. The difference is in hearing God by yourself. God has sent him to say something but God will also touch the heart of those HE means to hear such a message.

EarsWide:

@Papido


I do not believe I am quoting him out of context - the sermon was titled 'Covenant Day of Vengeance'.It was very shocking to see 50,000 people praying for the destruction of enemies. You come across as a reasonable person - I think someone like you would have been a bit hesitant about praying for the death of a fellow human being. Lets imagine my enemy is Mr T - do I then say 'God please kill Mr T!' - there is something profoundly unchristian about that. I could just have prayed 'God please dont let Mr T succeed in his attempts to get me' or better yet pray 'God plese change Mr T to a better person'. God can do anything - it does not take less effort on Gods part to destroy Mr T than to change him to a better person.

In anycase this 'Covenant Day of Vengeance' is playing to the idea that all our misfortunes are down to 'enemies' - which is one of the reasons why Africa remains backward. Good people will be sick, poor, die young etc. It does not mean anyone is after them or God is not protecting them. Some people are born disabled - do we really think it is down to enemies ? This 'enemy' thing is just one weapon in the arsenal of the prosperity guys.

Just like the above discussion, God would have laid it upon his heart to dedicate just this one sunday service out of 52 sundays in a year to Vengeance. This does not mean that this is a permanent stand. Besides, the bible says ''suffer not a witch to live.'' There is what you refer to as spiritual wickedness in high places. those who hate you without reason. I used the analogy of Pharoah the other time. Some enemies will not let you go unless they die. Some bilogical parents are even responsible for the misfortune of their kids. Quite alright there are human problems that arise out of natural cause but, Earswide, can you honestly, honestly,  honestly say there is no spiritual forces anywhere, especially the wicked ones? I sincerely pray you don't have difficulties. I grew up seeing my father fight spiritual battles. Hospitals turned him down and he was delivered only by prayers. He enemy was his own aunt-in-law, the very woman who raised my mom up. This is a story for another day. Needless to say, my dad had peace only after the woman died (at the age of 90yrs of course). there is room for repentance in God's kingdom for those who are interested but some people don't care about repentance. They will care only about judgement.

On the issue of credit cards, i will say nothing because as far as i know, i don't know anyone who uses it here in Nigeria or abroad. I am not saying there are no people doing that but personally, i don't know any.

As for the issue of Adeboye and Oyedepo buying choppers, it struck me that you are really an insider because you have so much facts yourself. Sincerely,i think they need choppers more than they need an airplane. would you rather they blow siren in hold ups? The primary assignment of these men is to heal the sick through spiritual means and this they have spent precious energy doing. inspite of the multitudes of unhealed folks all around, i can tell you there are very many folks who got healed through these men too. If they invest so much in hospitals, then they defeat their own preaching. Oyedepo is about to set up a medical school at covenant university with a state of the art facility but you honestly don't expect it to be free of charge? Some serious health cases require up to N5m on one individual. If he decides to take up every case free of charge tell me, will the hospital survive? you want him to pay the doctors, nurses and then foot the medical bills of people he doent know? haba. As for the universities, i keep saying to all that care to listen that Covenant University is one of the cheapest private universities in Nigeria when compared with the facilities they offer. At N380k with constant light and water and full boarding and IT services, i think it is cheaper than Obasanjo's N500k school fees which has less facilities; cheaper than Atiku's N1m, and even cheaper than Babcocks N300k (because the last time i checked, their roads were not even tarred). He personally pays scholarship for 23 students who doesnt know from Adam. this scholarship is different from the one the church covers. You honestly cant run such a school free of charge. One professor earns at least N450k per month. we have over 30 professors apart from other support staff. How long do you think such an expense can be sustained without students paying school fees?

This is a very, very interesting topic, especially because it's really mind-boggling how this particular church earns so much. Recently, I've had the chance to meet up with a pastor of Winners Chapel and he is developing the church in my country. Before this, I had never heard of it at all.

I'm not a religious person, but honestly I think that what David Oyedepo is doing is really awesome. If he's earning money from his followers and spending it like any other wealthy man, it should be noted that he is very generous and is also spending the money for good. All the pastors of his church is earning a lot of money too. Isn't that what the church money is for; for the pastors who devote their entire life and lifestyle spreading the word of the Lord? Isn't that what the church money is for; for the pastors to pay for the expenses of the church (e.g. meeting halls, events, printing, websites, etc.)?

Nobody is forced to give money to the church, and anyone who wants to give money can give any amount they want. If David Oyedepo is earning $100 a month from contributions which is barely enough, everyone would be happy to know that he is surviving on basic essentials. But just because he has earned millions, all of a sudden so many people are calling his work fraudulent.

I think this should be a pride of Nigeria, it has expanded and is still expanding all around the world. The works of the pastors of this church is simply amazing. Many of the pastors in my country can't compete.

But that said, it's really sad to see how money is really THAT useful and powerful because without the money this church would be very limited indeed.

Pray and tell the mantle of God TO move with the cutlass of heavenand slaughter every evil pastor having hands in your life and decieving you,let the mantle expose and disgrace them and put them on chain from heaven for you to be free
pray and tell the mantle of GOD TO move with the cutlass of heaven and all the weapons of heaven and invade every evil church that you must have entered knowingly and unknowingly and God should blow their evil altars open and behold In the kingdom of Jesuschrist that has come every body is a suspect until the world of justice clears you,no mater how you pretend to know JESUSCHRIST?oh God of justice In the name of Jesuschrist every evil pastors &prophets blow open their altars&put them on chain from heaven and turn their honours to disgrace
He that made the spiritual laws,In the kingdom of Jesuschrist that has come every body is a suspect until the world of justice clears you,no matter how you pretend to know JESUSCHRIST?we tell you truly,the descendants of teachers of law of bible era are all over,without JESUSCHRIST UNBELEVABLE POWER preaching bible they cant really explain to followers.Mantle of God,In JesusChrist name.every evil pastor AND prophets blow open their altars and put them on CHAIN from heaven and turn their honour to disgrace in Jesuschrist mighty name we pray amen