Until we begin to understand the significance of a wheel,movement,motion,locomotion and mechanics as a people,we won't be able to place values on our transport system.We will always go for the scraps,junks and leftovers because we don't have the abilities to set things in motion.

We don't have power over machines,we are like aliens in the machine world,even in the 21st century.

manny4life:



I don't think anyone is complaining about about him buying "used" trains, the focus has been on the life of the train. Train cars of that age has been phased due to structural, mechanical issues, etc. Refurbishing them will not add another 5/10years to it's life span, its cycle has been fully exhausted and they decommission them.

Again, is this based on fact? As far as I've found, the trains are being changed by the TTC primarily to increase capacity.

Are you a rail engineering specialist to say that refurbishing them won't add another 5/10 years to its lifespan?

These trains (H5 and H6 models) were all extensively refurbished between 1997 and 2000, so again glibly describing them as '30 year old trains' doesn't paint the full picture.

http://www.cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Toronto_Transit_Commission_5670-5807

Its hard arguing with people here,

They are going for a 15 years old refurbished carriages, we are talking about carriages that would we carry people, its like saying Nigerian airways are buying refurbished planes from Canada, its ironic that the Canadians recently upgraded all their rolling stock, so which part of the project does safety play?

or how would you refurbished a train carriage? would change the shoes, wheels, breaking system, seats, the whole design,


At the end of the day its still a USED train

As the cars aged, they began to experience numerous issues with their control systems, truck and axle problems, and serious frame rusting, particularly at the doorways. Toronto Transit Commission decided to overhaul the H5 subway cars beginning in the summer of 1997. 6 subway cars would be overhauled at one time. This overhaul program was completed in 1999. The most noticable change was the replacement of the padded orange-yellow viny seat inserts to the now standard red synthetic material. The cars originally had darker orange inserts which were replaced earlier with the lighter orange ones in line with what the H6 cars used. Most H5 cars have had the centre standee pole at the B-end (non-cab end) removed. Additionally, some cars have had all their centre standee poles removed (5784-87, 5799 among others).

http://www.cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Toronto_Transit_Commission_5670-5807

The details table on the same site provides information on when each train car was likely purchased(majority between 1976 -1979 I presume), as well as information on what work was done on what car, and when they were last rebuilt, with some details on what work was actually done(1998-2000). Fast forward to 2011, the TCC is getting rid of most all of the cars.

Kobojunkie:

http://www.cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Toronto_Transit_Commission_5670-5807

The details table on the same site provides information on when each train car was likely purchased(majority between 1976 -1979 I presume), as well as information on what work was done on what car.

The refurbishment dealt with the highlighted problems did it not?

Kobojunkie:



Found a nice picture of some of the same TTCs old scrap grade cars from 2008 . http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/b8/c6/0ae32e76485b8f1087e5bf90b0c3.jpeg

In the interests of being factual, this is not true - the cars in the picture are from New York not Toronto.

More than 900 New York subway cars, for example, have been stripped and dumped into the ocean off the Delaware coast, where they have proved to make ideal artificial reefs, offering homes to a robust range of sea life.

The age of the trains shown in the picture is unclear.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/640945

omar22:

Its hard arguing with people here,

They are going for a 15 years old refurbished carriages,  we are talking about carriages that would we carry people, its like saying Nigerian airways are buying refurbished planes from Canada,  its ironic that the Canadians recently upgraded all their rolling stock, so which part of the project does safety play?

or how would you refurbished a train carriage? would change the shoes, wheels, breaking system, seats, the whole design,


At the end of the day its still a USED train

Your rant is absolutely irrelevant simply because you are not a rail engineer, this is nothing but a lay man talk.

debosky:

The refurbishment dealt with the highlighted problems did it not?

In the interests of being factual, this is not true - the cars in the picture are from New York not Toronto.

The age of the trains shown in the picture is unclear.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/640945

I knew it was a lie and that's why I asked for the original story behind the picture


You see how he/she lied and deceptively labeled the picture as TCC train?


This is why I don't trust these people, they are all liars, you just can not take them seriously.

debosky:

The refurbishment dealt with the highlighted problems did it not?

In the interests of being factual, this is not true - the cars in the picture are from New York not Toronto.
The age of the trains shown in the picture is unclear.

A Refurbished car is NOT a BRAND new car. And refurbished items are NOT GUARANTEED to have the same life span as NEW ITEMS, and this largely depends on the work actually done during the rebuilding process. Majority of the times, since rebuilding is not done by the actual manufacturer or the item, refurbished are sometimes only expected to have about half the span of the brand new item.

Given  that some of the train cars in the picture are detailed as H5's which the TCC cites were purchased back in between 1976-1979, it is safe to assume that some of those train cars in the picture are from the same stock. So we are looking likely looking at some of the 30 year old stock.

Also the article attached to the picture informs you that not just H5's but also H6's were decommissioned in similar manner. And you are also told that the H6 fleet was purchased between 1986-1990.

The H5s were rolled out between 1977 and 1980 and the H6s between 1986 and 1990, from Urban Transportation Development Corp., a Thunder Bay company that later became part of Bombardier.

TCC H6 link for those who care http://www.cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Toronto_Transit_Commission_5810-5935

Kobojunkie:

A Refurbished car is NOT a BRAND new car. And refurbished items are NOT GUARANTEED to have the same life span as NEW ITEMS, and this largely depends on the work actually done during the rebuilding process.

I never claimed they were the same - the problems you highlighted were addressed by the refurbishment. I agree the ultimate lifespan is dependent on the quality of the refurbishment, as well as how they are maintained.

On the guarantee issue, the issue isn't really having the same life span as new items - the real question is whether they will deliver to the required performance standard over the duration required by the concessionaire Eko Rail.

[b]Given  that the train cars in the picture are detailed as H5's [/b]which the TCC cites were purchased back in between 1976-1979, it is safe to assume that some of those train cars in the picture are those purchased during said period. So we are looking likely looking at some of the 30 year old stock.

Where were they detailed as H5's? They were simply described as 'worn out New York subway cars' in the picture caption so I'd be interested in knowing where you got this information from.

It is obvious that most people on this thread do not understand how long trains can be in service. Even though these trains are 30 years old, some of them may still be fully functional for another 15 - 20 years. The oldest trains in the London underground system were built in the 1960s, Metropolitan lines for sure have some of the oldest trains. Same for Bakerloo line and these lines are fully functional. Same goes for the New York subway, the C line trains are 47 years old, go and check.

The point is these trains can still work for another 15 - 20 years. Remember that these trains are currently fully functional and do carry Canadians so they cannot be fully scrap. Scrap is often more an accounting term rather than anything else. So before we criticise the Governor, let us see the trains and confirm whether or not they are functional before we begin to complain. Buying new one can be too expensive and please using analogies with Cars, clothes are extremely stupid, they do not have the same lifespan!

Lets wait and see.

debosky:

Where were they detailed as H5's? They were simply described as 'worn out New York subway cars' in the picture caption.

Are you link lazy or what? there is a whole article attached to that picture you know.  CLICK THE LINK!

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/640945


Also, if you bothered to read the comment below the picture at least, it should at least be clear that I in no way suggested they are in the same exact condition that Lagos purchased it's own stock. But could be closely compared to what TCC would consider scrap stock.

Kobojunkie:

A Refurbished car is NOT a BRAND new car. And refurbished items are NOT GUARANTEED to have the same life span as NEW ITEMS, and this largely depends on the work actually done during the rebuilding process. Majority of the times, since rebuilding is not done by the actual manufacturer or the item, refurbished are sometimes only expected to have about half the span of the brand new item.

Given  that some of the train cars in the picture are detailed as H5's which the TCC cites were purchased back in between 1976-1979, it is safe to assume that some of those train cars in the picture are from the same stock. So we are looking likely looking at some of the 30 year old stock.

1. We know refurbished doesn't man new so get off that crack.

2. You are not a rail engineer and so far, all you've been peddling in this thread is your clownish pictures and lies.

Kobojunkie:

Are you link lazy or what? there is a whole article attached to that picture you know. 


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/640945

Over 20,000 posts and no intellectually stimulating post. I pity people who engage you in conversations.

Nashville:

It is obvious that most people on this thread do not understand how long trains can be in service. Even though these trains are 30 years old, some of them may still be fully functional for another 15 - 20 years. The oldest trains in the London underground system were built in the 1960s, Metropolitan lines for sure have some of the oldest trains. Same for Bakerloo line and these lines are fully functional. Same goes for the New York subway, the C line trains are 47 years old, go and check.

Nah!!! It is highly likely that the same trains have undergone some serious rebuilding work in that time as well. We have a train yard here where old trains are rebuilt and polished to appears as new.

The train museum here educates you on the value placed on some of these trains and why we continue to spend money doing that. That does not however mean those same trains are in use as commuter trains. So let's not throw around more frivolous claims.  

Kobojunkie:

Are you link lazy or what? there is a whole article attached to that picture you know. 

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/640945


Also, if you bothered to read the comment below the picture at least, it should at least be clear that I in no way suggested they are in the same exact condition that Lagos purchased it's own stock. But could be closely compared to what TCC would consider scrap stock.

1. The article did not attache H5 to that picture.

2. New York never used the H5, they used the R160 cars.



You are a lair,

Kobojunkie:

Are you link lazy or what? there is a whole article attached to that picture you know.  CLICK THE LINK!

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/640945

Nowhere in that article are those trains IN THE PICTURE are H5's - there was simply a reference to old subway trains without any reference to their origin.

The entire article is reproduced below for others to assess:

In with the new. Out with the old.

Even before the new subway cars begin operating next year, the TTC has a potential buyer for its retiring H5 and H6 cars, according to a report before the transit commission tomorrow. An undisclosed company has approached the TTC to buy 135 H5 and 126 H6 cars to be used on a potential transit system in another jurisdiction, says the report. But the buyer won't know until later this year whether it has the contract to build and operate the other system.

Selling the cars instead of scrapping them would mean more cash for the TTC, says the report.

The transit commission has ordered 39 new train sets from Bombardier to be delivered in 2010 and 2011 and plans to order additional trains next year, said TTC spokesman Brad Ross.

The H5s were rolled out between 1977 and 1980 and the H6s between 1986 and 1990, from Urban Transportation Development Corp., a Thunder Bay company that later became part of Bombardier.

[b]Some interesting uses for old subway cars have been found.

More than 900 New York subway cars, for example, have been stripped and dumped into the ocean off the Delaware coast, where they have proved to make ideal artificial reefs, offering homes to a robust range of sea life. [/b]The Seoul Metro system, which assumes a subway car lifespan of 25 years, is selling its old ones to Vietnam's railroad.

Old Beijing subway cars got shipped off to Sichuan Province, where they served as shelters to people left homeless by last year's devastating earthquake. A London entrepreneur perched several old cars atop a roof and turned them into creative office space.

And subways aren't found just in the wealthiest countries anymore, providing a potential market for refurbished models. Among the cities that have opened rapid transit systems in the past few years are New Delhi, Lima and Tehran, as well as many cities in China.

Also, if you bothered to read the comment below the picture at least, it should at least be clear that I in no way suggested they are in the same exact condition that Lagos purchased it's own stock. But could be closely compared to what TCC would consider scrap stock.

You comment was that they were 'the same TTC old scrap grade cars' and that is false.  You did not say they could be 'closely compared'. The use of the term 'the same' implies simply that - the same and not 'closely compared'.  

debosky:

Nowhere in that article are those trains IN THE PICTURE are H5's - there was simply a reference to old subway trains without any reference to their origin.

The entire article is reproduced below for others to assess:

You comment was that they were 'the same TTC old scrap grade cars' and that is false.  You did not say they could be 'closely compared'. Apologies if we can't read your mind to know what you were 'suggesting'. The use of the term 'the same' implies simply that - the same and not 'closely compared'.  

Hm . . . my mistake.

I assumed that the subway carts belonged also to TCC since the article speaks of TCC fleet being gotten rid of . The article does make claims on H5's and H6's being gotten rid of and since we know from the TCC site when the fleet was likely acquired, it still is safe to assume that the scrap stock likely looks like what is represented in the picture, since we have no other references from TCC on exactly what all the cars looked like at time of purchase.

I will however research the New York subway picture to find out the age of the cars that were buried in the river.

Kobojunkie:

Nah!!! It is highly likely that the same trains have undergone some serious rebuilding work in that time as well. We have a train yard here where old trains are rebuilt and polished to appears as new.

The train museum here educates you on the value placed on some of these trains and why we continue to spend money doing that. That does not however mean those same trains are in use as commuter trains. So let's not throw around more frivolous claims.  

I am not throwing around frivolous claims, I am stating facts that you can check on Wikipedia so they are completely true. You can check for yourself. These trains are well maintained and regularly checked. I see you think trains work like cars but trust me, I used to live in New York and now London and I can tell you the Underground and Subway aint nothing like what you have in Ohio. Trains are not just taken out of service without careful planning and they are announced way in advance. Please stop comparing trains to cars as trains can go without major refurblishment for 10 years. Just get on the C line or 1 line in New York and you can tell how old these trains are.

We hope Fashola's trains will be refurblished before they come into service. If Fashola does the right thing in refurblishing those trains then they can be used for another 15 years. The Canadians will not guarantee anything because they are not the ones to refurblish anything, they are selling the trains "as-is", but it does not mean the trains are not functional.

Kobo, I suggest you do some research on how long trains can last before you make your next post.

Merry Christmas by the way

Nashville:



I am not throwing around frivolous claims, I am stating facts that you can check on Wikipedia so they are completely true. You can check for yourself. These trains are well maintained and regularly checked. I see you think trains work like cars but trust me, I used to live in New York and now London and I can tell you the Underground and Subway aint nothing like what you have in Ohio. Trains are not just taken out of service without careful planning and they are announced way in advance. Please stop comparing trains to cars as trains can go without major refurblishment for 10 years. Just get on the C line or 1 line in New York and you can tell how old these trains are.

We hope Fashola's trains will be refurblished before they come into service. If Fashola does the right thing in refurblishing those trains then they can be used for another 15 years. The Canadians will not guarantee anything because they are not the ones to refurblish anything, they are selling the trains "as-is", but it does not mean the trains are not functional.

Kobo, I suggest you do some research on how long trains can last before you make your next post.

Merry Christmas by the way

Again, no TRAINS are being sold here. These are train cars. How long those last? Well, the average on most sites I have searched is between 30-40 years.

I have lived in the same New york and yes, there is quite a lot of information online about the train system there by the way. And tyhat information does not attempt what you are suggesting that they gave some near unlimited lifespan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway_rolling_stock
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/05/17/us-subway-reef-idUSN1643767620080517

The cars, dating from 1964, were among 1,662 that have been retired by New York's Metropolitan Transportation Authority and will be used by a number of states on the U.S. East Coast to create the reefs to buoy local fishing industries.

On the trains, yes, they are rebuilt and again, we have a train yard here that rebuilds both trains and train cars. I also know we have a trailer park over in the next state filled with houses made out of some of the scrap cars from illinois. 

Kobojunkie:

Hm . . . my mistake.

I assumed that the subway carts belonged also to TCC since the article speaks of TCC fleet being gotten rid of . The article does make claims on H5's and H6's being gotten rid of and since we know from the TCC site when the fleet was likely acquired[b], it still is safe to assume that the scrap stock likely looks like what is represented in the picture, since we have no other references from TCC on exactly what all the cars looked like at time of purchase.[/b]

There is no need to assume here - there are pictures available from Fashola's visit to inspect the trains at TTC so they should suffice as examples (see link below). Besides, as someone mentioned, there are trains as old as 47 years old on the New York subway, so the trains being dumped could be much older.

There is also something else to be noted here - those carriages you are seeing have been gutted and scrapped - the ones from TTC will be kept in operational state and transferred to Eko Rail for refurbishment.

http://pmnewsnigeria.com/2011/05/15/in-pictures-fashola-inspects-trains-facilities-for-lagos-light-rail-in-canada/

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/comments/?set=a.217133391639787.62568.146629982023462

The white haired man with Fashola is a renowned rail expert Michael Schabas http://www.firstclasspartnerships.com/michael-schabas.php

Nashville:



I am not throwing around frivolous claims, I am stating facts that you can check on Wikipedia so they are completely true. You can check for yourself. These trains are well maintained and regularly checked. I see you think trains work like cars but trust me, I used to live in New York and now London and I can tell you the Underground and Subway aint nothing like what you have in Ohio. Trains are not just taken out of service without careful planning and they are announced way in advance. Please stop comparing trains to cars as trains can go without major refurblishment for 10 years. Just get on the C line or 1 line in New York and you can tell how old these trains are.

We hope Fashola's trains will be refurblished before they come into service. If Fashola does the right thing in refurblishing those trains then they can be used for another 15 years. The Canadians will not guarantee anything because they are not the ones to refurblish anything, they are selling the trains "as-is", but it does not mean the trains are not functional.

Kobo, I suggest you do some research on how long trains can last before you make your next post.

Merry Christmas by the way

Very well said and I'll rest my argument on this post.


It's already bee established that the trains are getting refurbished by the best folks in the business with modern upgrades and facilities as stated in the quote below.

As the electric-powered cars become surplus and are pulled offline in Toronto, they will be individually trucked to the United States for rebuilding by a team of world-class rail engineers. The cars will also undergo track-width (or “gauge”) conversion and interior refurbishment before being shipped to Lagos.


Each of the TTC cars come equipped with air-conditioning, automatic sliding doors, solid-state traction control, energy saving regenerative braking, and a wide range of modern safety features and amenities. Once equipped with a state-of-the-art, GPS-based train control system made by General Electric, Eko Rail’s trains will provide faster, safer, cheaper and more reliable transportation for Lagosians

http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Home/5743824-146/eko_rails_trains_begin_journey_to.csp

debosky:

There is no need to assume here - there are pictures available from Fashola's visit to inspect the trains so they should suffice as examples (see link below). Besides, as someone mentioned, there are trains as old as 47 years old on the New York subway, so the trains could be much older.

There is also something else to be noted here - those carriages you are seeing have been gutted and scrapped - the ones from TTC will be kept in operational state and transferred to Eko Rail for refurbishment.

http://pmnewsnigeria.com/2011/05/15/in-pictures-fashola-inspects-trains-facilities-for-lagos-light-rail-in-canada/

There is every need to assume. The pictures with Fashola DO NOT tell you that those exact cars are the one's he will be going away with. Nor do they tell you that the all 200 and something of the final cars he will be walking away with, will not look like gutted images you see there. I have read from one source that they will be refurbished and from another that they already come equipped with everything but GPS so, yes,  there is need to assume.


On NY Cars, well it turns outt the same NY got rid of over 1000 of their 30 to 40 year carts back in 2008. I am still searching for detail on particular models and years on each but. Again, we are looking at cars already over 30.

The cars, dating from 1964, were among 1,662 that have been retired by New York's Metropolitan Transportation Authority and will be used by a number of states on the U.S. East Coast to create the reefs to buoy local fishing industries.

Maryland plans four more subway-car reefs and since 2001 others have been created in Delaware and New Jersey waters from an earlier batch of about 1,200 cars released by the MTA.

Now back to the topic . . . .

@Eko Ile,

I have successfully ignored you all this while and I WILL CONTINUE TO IGNORE YOU.

debosky:

Again, is this based on fact? As far as I've found, the trains are being changed by the TTC primarily to increase capacity.

Are you a rail engineering specialist to say that refurbishing them won't add another 5/10 years to its lifespan?  

These trains (H5 and H6 models) were all extensively refurbished between 1997 and 2000, so again glibly describing them as '30 year old trains' doesn't paint the full picture.

http://www.cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Toronto_Transit_Commission_5670-5807

You're looking for facts? WMATA is number two largest metropolitan transporter, talk to their engineers, they will give you facts and figures. Talk to NY subway engineers who phased their older model trains, they will tell you their mechanical issues. In addition to that, I ride the train every morning, so when I say older model train have "serious" mechanical issue from AC issues, operational issues to the worse that leads to train derailment, as a stakeholder and consumer, you sure don't need facts. Better yet, while you search for fact, don't forget to seek expert opinions.


Am I a rail engineer? No I'm not actually but why would NY transit or WMATA or other transit subways phase out their trains when they can continue to refurbish it and keep adding extra life span on it? If you watch National Geographic, NY Subway system documentary, you will see the need why they couldn't keep it and it was finally decommissioned and phased out.

Kobojunkie:

There is every need to assume. The pictures with Fashola DO NOT tell you that those exact cars are the one's he will be going away with. Nor do they tell you that the all 200 and something of the final cars he will be walking away with, will not look like gutted images you see there. I have read from one source that they will be refurbished and from another that they already come equipped with everything but GPS so, yes,  there is need to assume.

So what do we assume then? Do we just pick any random picture and use that to justify/criticize the project? In any case, the trains inspected by Fashola were captioned as 'those that will be used by Eko Rail' - that works better than just any image off the internet.

Kobojunkie:

Again, no TRAINS are being sold here. These are train cars. How long those last? Well, the average on most sites I have searched is between 30-40 years.

I have lived in the same New york and yes, there is quite a lot of information online about the train system there by the way. And tyhat information does not attempt what you are suggesting that they gave some near unlimited lifespan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway_rolling_stock
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/05/17/us-subway-reef-idUSN1643767620080517

On the trains, yes, they are rebuilt and again, we have a train yard here that rebuilds both trains and train cars. I also know we have a trailer park over in the next state filled with houses made out of some of the scrap cars from illinois. 

So if you agree that train cars can last that long what problem do you have with Fashola buying these "old" trains. And if you look at my post, at no time did I say the trains have unlimited lifespan. I said the trains can last another 15 - 20 years.

Fashola has said he will refurblish the trains, lets hope he does that so that the trains can serve as an alternative to commuters. Every time I call my folks back home in Lagos the first complaint is traffic. Lagos is being projected to be the 6th largest city in the world by 2015 and it will be the only one amongst the top 10 without a functional rail system.

Let us give Fashola a chance.

debosky:

So what do we assume then? Do we just pick any random picture and use that to justify/criticize the project? In any case, the trains inspected by Fashola were captioned as 'those that will be used by Eko Rail' - that works better than just any image off the internet.

So in your mind, I picked a random picture, that had attached to it an article about TCC(the very company this whole has been all about) selling off it's H5's and H6's to some buyer, so I could criticize a project, which I have yet to really comment on?? REALLY??

That is what you came up with?

It should be obvious from common sense that projects such as this require brand new trains. I'm of the opinion that those of you attempting to justify the aquisition of these second hand trains should hide your faces in shame.

Lagosian deserve brad new trains period!!

Nashville:

So if you agree that train cars can last that long what problem do you have with Fashola buying these "old" trains. And if you look at my post, at no time did I say the trains have unlimited lifespan. I said the trains can last another 15 - 20 years.

Fashola has said he will refurblish the trains, lets hope he does that so that the trains can serve as an alternative to commuters. Every time I call my folks back home in Lagos the first complaint is traffic. Lagos is being projected to be the 6th largest city in the world by 2015 and it will be the only one amongst the top 10 without a functional rail system.

Let us give Fashola a chance.

This is where I tell you to go back to Page one and start there reading how far this discussion has come to gain a better understanding of what people, here are saying or suggesting to begin with.

@Nashville,

You honestly think per the statistics, Lagos to be amongst the top 10 in the world, so you think with an estimated ridership of 1.8million (per the Eko Rail website), you think a 30+ year aged train will survive the grunt? Well, it's only a matter of time, like they say, time will tell.

manny4life:

@Eko Ile,

I have successfully ignored you all this while and I WILL CONTINUE TO IGNORE YOU.



You're looking for facts? WMATA is number two largest metropolitan transporter, talk to their engineers, they will give you facts and figures. Talk to NY subway engineers who phased their older model trains, they will tell you their mechanical issues. In addition to that, I ride the train every morning, so when I say older model train have mechanical issue from AC issues to the worse that leads to train derailment, you sure don't need facts. Better yet, while you search for fact, don't forget to seek expert opinions.


Am I a rail engineer? No I'm not actually but why would NY transit or WMATA or other transit subways phase out their trains when they can continue to refurbish it and keep adding extra life span on it? If you watch National Geographic, NY Subway system documentary, you will see the need why they couldn't keep it and it was finally decommissioned and phased out.

Like I really care what you ignore or don't ignore. This is nothing but another online discussion so get over yourself already.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but your opinion means nothing regarding this issue simply because you are not involved in this project, you don't know anything about this project beyond what you read on NL.


I'll listen to the world class experts working on this project and never in my life listen to you and your lay man claims so you might want to just ignore me completely because your opinion means nothing to me and it's never anyways.

manny4life:

You're looking for facts? WMATA is number two largest metropolitan transporter, talk to their engineers, they will give you facts and figures. Talk to NY subway engineers who phased their older model trains, they will tell you their mechanical issues. In addition to that, I ride the train every morning, so when I say older model train have "serious" mechanical issue from AC issues, operational issues to the worse that leads to train derailment, as a stakeholder and consumer, you sure don't need facts. Better yet, while you search for fact, don't forget to seek expert opinions.

Again, all this consumer experience you have does not give us the reasons why TTC decommissioned the trains. Yes they have had mechanical issues, but as others have stated, old 1960 trains are still in use today even in London - they continue to function and deliver acceptable service. As far as we've seen, the trains are being replaced to increase capacity.

Am I a rail engineer? No I'm not actually but why would NY transit or WMATA or other transit subways phase out their trains when they can continue to refurbish it and keep adding extra life span on it? If you watch National Geographic, NY Subway system documentary, you will see the need why they couldn't keep it and it was finally decommissioned and phased out.

The NY subway trains that were phased out in your documentary - are they the same make/model/age as the TTC ones (some as recent as 1990 build)? We need to be sure we are comparing like for like.

The trains in Toronto are currently still in use, and some will be in use till 2013 at least while new trains are being ordered. They have hardly reached the stage where  'they couldn't keep it'.

There will clearly be justification for phasing out of trains by WAMATA - for example, the assets may no longer have any 'book value' and due for scrappage - that does not imply they cannot provide decent service after refurbishment.

My point is simple - you and I cannot make definitive judgements on the performance levels and lifespan of the refurbished trains.

ndu_chucks:

It should be obvious from common sense that projects such as this require brand new trains. I'm of the opinion that those of you attempting to justify the aquisition of these second hand trains should hide your faces in shame.

Lagosian deserve brad new trains period!!

Can you please tell us why and what engineering rational you based this on?

Are you a rail engineer?