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Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) - Religion - Nairaland

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Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by wirinet(m): 8:41pm On Apr 15, 2012
The core argument of theists for the existence of a God (intelligent designer) is that nature is to complex to come about as a result of mere chance. They point to the complexity of the DNA and the human body as a whole as evidence of design. The seemingly perfect and complex patterns in nature is evidence of an intelligent designer. They ascribe impossible probability to these patterns occurring by chance. Now I want to examine 4 natural phenomena and see if they could happen by chance or it must be designed by an intelligent designer.

1. A sand dune
A sand dune is sand heaped together as a result of the action of wind. It exhibits various complex patterns lines and shapes, in fact it could be considered the works of a very creative artist.

2. A galaxy
There are over a hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe, and although there a few basic shapes, each galaxy has its own unique pattern. Stars are arranged in a complex array of patterns. Does it require a designer or the patterns happened by chance.

3. The rings of Saturn.
There are few objects in space that is more beautiful than Saturn and this is due to its alluring rings. The rings of Saturn is made up of millions of small chunks of dry ice. It is situated in a very narrow belt around the equator. It has very beautiful precise patterns and colours in concentric rings at precise distances from the centre. Does this pattern need a designer or it can happen by pure chance after billions of years.

4. Ice crystals.

Ice crystals as represented by snow flakes as innocuous as they look presents one of the most varied and beautiful patterns in nature. They come in various beautiful patterns and shaped and is such that no two patterns are identical. The only theme running in the patterns is that they are all hexagonal in shape. Now does the shape of each ice crystal require a designer?

These are just 4 examples of the millions of seemingly designed patterns in the universe. Everything in the universe manifests as patterns, the atom is a pattern of neucleons and electrons, the difference between atoms is in the arrangements and patterns. Same for elements and compounds. Life is just a pattern of molecules that allows self duplication. So does the pattern of molecules that permits self duplication (life) require an Intelligent designer or it could happen by chance after trillions and trillions of trials.

Let's hear the arguments of both sides of the divide.

Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by wirinet(m): 7:44am On Apr 16, 2012
A sand dune

The lines are drawn to perfection

Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by wirinet(m): 7:58am On Apr 16, 2012
The DNA molecule

The DNA is the most important molecule in the universe. Its beautiful double helix spiral pattern make life possible and is in fact life itself.

Now the key question is can this pattern be formed from chance after trillions and trillions of trial and error or it must require a thoroughly thought out process by an intelligent designer to arrange the molecular pattern in very precise order.

Waiting for comments from atheists and theists.

Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by Kay17: 9:00am On Apr 16, 2012
Good effort wirinet, read my mind.
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by Kay17: 9:08am On Apr 16, 2012
Complexity directed towards a specifi purpose could be owed to an intelligent designer
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by wirinet(m): 12:06pm On Apr 16, 2012
Kay 17: Complexity directed towards a specifi purpose could be owed to an intelligent designer

How does one know the ultimate purpose to which the complexity is directed? What is the purpose of the intelligent designer?
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by Kay17: 3:29pm On Apr 16, 2012
If the purpose is objectively discernible from its design, like a watch, a mere glance betrays its purpose. But the purpose of life
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by wirinet(m): 12:33pm On Apr 17, 2012
The purpose of life is the creation and preservation of more life (self duplication).

1 Like

Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by Jenwitemi(m): 1:45pm On Apr 17, 2012
Wirinet, why are you still pursuing this old and tired debate? Even modern scientists have long abandon the ridiculous claim that the universe and everything in it was created by chance.

Scientists have long accepted that the universe was (is being) created and moved on to finding out how it was (is being) constructed and the momentary conclusion is that the universe we live in is a 3D holographic reality since the atoms it is made out of is 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999...% EMPTY, meaning there is no solidity to the universe. It is a phantom as the ancients used to call it. A dream.

Move with the times, dude. Science has left all this kind of debates behind long time ago.
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by wirinet(m): 2:46pm On Apr 17, 2012
Jenwitemi: Wirinet, why are you still pursuing this old and tired debate? Even modern scientists have long abandon the ridiculous claim that the universe and everything in it was created by chance.

Scientists have long accepted that the universe was (is being) created and moved on to finding out how it was (is being) constructed and the momentary conclusion is that the universe we live in is a 3D holographic reality since the atoms it is made out of is 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999...% EMPTY, meaning there is no solidity to the universe. It is a phantom as the ancients used to call it. A dream.

Move with the times, dude. Science has left all this kind of debates behind long time ago.

The debate might be old, but it is no where tired. The creation vs chance debate has been going on for centuries and will continue for centuries more.

When did scientists agree that the universe was (is being) created and is finding out how it was ( is being) created. Where did you get that?

According to science the universe burst into being about 12 - 15 billion years ago and has been evolving since then.

You are way behind with the present theories of fundamental physics, fundamental particles is no longer look upon as billiard ball like electrons revolving around a central nucleon, with lots of empty space between. Modern quantum physics says the atom is made up of interactions of different types of vibrations at extremely high frequencies.
You need to update your physics.

What do you mean by there is no solidity in the universe? Are you talking philosophically, spiritually or physically?
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by jagunlabi(m): 4:06pm On Apr 17, 2012
I am talking, most importantly, scientifically. The universe has no solidity. The seeming solidity is an illusion. It is our brains that decode our physical reality as solid.
wirinet:

What do you mean by there is no solidity in the universe? Are you talking philosophically, spiritually or physically?
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by LogicMind: 4:08pm On Apr 17, 2012
Jenwitemi: Wirinet, why are you still pursuing this old and tired debate? Even modern scientists have long abandon the ridiculous claim that the universe and everything in it was created by chance.

Scientists have long accepted that the universe was (is being) created and moved on to finding out how it was (is being) constructed and the momentary conclusion is that the universe we live in is a 3D holographic reality since the atoms it is made out of is 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999...% EMPTY, meaning there is no solidity to the universe. It is a phantom as the ancients used to call it. A dream.

Move with the times, dude. Science has left all this kind of debates behind long time ago.

wtf?
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by jagunlabi(m): 4:14pm On Apr 17, 2012
I hear you, bro.
wirinet:

The debate might be old, but it is no where tired. The creation vs chance debate has been going on for centuries and will continue for centuries more.
quote]

Science journals, mate.[quote author=wirinet]

When did scientists agree that the universe was (is being) created and is finding out how it was ( is being) created. Where did you get that?

According to astronomers, they are discovering star clusters older than the 12-15 million year old universe. Can you explain that? The astronomers are finding out that the universe is much much older than the scientists have computed it to be.
wirinet:
According to science the universe burst into being about 12 - 15 billion years ago and has been evolving since then.

If you say so. You are not on the ball yourself, you know. Or else you wouldn't have started this thread to begin with.
wirinet:
You are way behind with the present theories of fundamental physics, fundamental particles is no longer look upon as billiard ball like electrons revolving around a central nucleon, with lots of empty space between. Modern quantum physics says the atom is made up of interactions of different types of vibrations at extremely high frequencies.
You need to update your physics.
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by jagunlabi(m): 4:15pm On Apr 17, 2012
What? You've never heard this before? You are even further behind than wirinet. School up, bro. Science has left you guys far far behind.
Logic Mind:

wtf?
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by LogicMind: 4:18pm On Apr 17, 2012
jagunlabi: What? You've never heard this before? You are even further behind than wirinet. School up, bro. Science has left you guys far far behind.

i have heard all types of crazy shite in my life but this one beats me. maybe we are in the matrix afterall.
where's my blue pill?!
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by jagunlabi(m): 4:20pm On Apr 17, 2012
Just as long as you don't show your ignorance by saying that out loud in the presence of learned science folks. They'll laugh you out of the place. That the universe has no solidity is already a mainstream scientific truth. School up, dude.
Logic Mind:

i have heard all types of crazy shite in my life but this one beats me. maybe we are in the matrix afterall.
where's my blue pill?!
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by LogicMind: 4:32pm On Apr 17, 2012
jagunlabi: Just as long as you don't show your ignorance by saying that out loud in the presence of learned science folks. They'll laugh you out of the place. That the universe has no solidity is already a mainstream scientific truth. School up, dude.

please oh most learned one, forgive thy servant and enlighten me.
we learn something new everyday and i never claimed to know everything but when i see bullshite, i recognise bullshite.

I don't even know where to begin with you but just a few questions if you woulf kindly indulge my "ignorance".
1- Are you a scientist or do you happen to believe anything a white man in a white coat tells you?
2- Would you believe me if after years of study i tell you that the moon is actually 99.99999% liquid?
3- Are you religious? Which denomination?
4- Which scientists told you we are all gas?
5- How exactly do you describe "solidity"?
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by dekung(m): 4:43pm On Apr 17, 2012
Jenwitemi: Wirinet, why are you still pursuing this old and tired debate? Even modern scientists have long abandon the ridiculous claim that the universe and everything in it was created by chance.

Scientists have long accepted that the universe was (is being) created and moved on to finding out how it was (is being) constructed and the momentary conclusion is that the universe we live in is a 3D holographic reality since the atoms it is made out of is 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999...% EMPTY, meaning there is no solidity to the universe. It is a phantom as the ancients used to call it. A dream.

Move with the times, dude. Science has left all this kind of debates behind long time ago.
citation pleaase!
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by wirinet(m): 8:09am On Jan 18, 2013
If the above phenomena could be created by chance, why not the universe as a whole?
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by Nobody: 2:16pm On Jan 18, 2013
wirinet: The purpose of life is the creation and preservation of more life (self duplication).

This statement is the epitome of idiocy. Read this 2-3 times... does it make sense?

The purpose of life is the creation and preservation of more life? What does that mean? The purpose of rain is to create and maintain rain? Senseless
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by Nobody: 2:18pm On Jan 18, 2013
wirinet: If the above phenomena could be created by chance, why not the universe as a whole?

Ice crystals are not created by chance, it is the fine-tuning of precise physical laws. Is temperature by chance?
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by Kay17: 7:50pm On Jan 18, 2013
davidylan:

Ice crystals are not created by chance, it is the fine-tuning of precise physical laws. Is temperature by chance?

Now you are making sense.

Let's talk about physical laws.
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by wirinet(m): 9:47pm On Jan 18, 2013
davidylan:

This statement is the epitome of idiocy. Read this 2-3 times... does it make sense?

The purpose of life is the creation and preservation of more life? What does that mean? The purpose of rain is to create and maintain rain? Senseless

My brother, you do not get understand it yet. I will try and explain it to you.

First, let me deal with your rain example. Using rain to compare life is at best nonsensical. We all know what rain is, it is just liquid water falling from the sky. Rain does not have self duplicating ability like life. So rain cannot create more rain or preserve itself.

Life can be defined as a self duplicating and preservating system. All its functions and processes is geared towards these two functions. I am talking about life in general and no just human life. I know you are thinking only of human life and so assume another purpose to human life based on the dogma you subscribe to. But you should stop and think, what is the purpose of viral life, of bacterial life, of plant life, of insect life, of fish life, etc, you will find that it is the creation of more virus, bacteria, plant, etc, and the preservation of self and the newly created life.

So even for a human, the first and most important purpose is self preservation, so over half of mans energy is spent on looking for food, water and physical protection(house and clothes). The other half is spent making sure we produce healthy offspring (preserve our DNA) and ensure preservation of these offsprings.

Even the refusal of theists to accept death by creating the concept of soul surviving physical death capable of living forever in heaven, has its roots in the powerful survival and self preservation instinct hard wired to our genes.

I hope you understand now.

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Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by wirinet(m): 10:03pm On Jan 18, 2013
davidylan:

Ice crystals are not created by chance, it is the fine-tuning of precise physical laws. Is temperature by chance?

i am tired and i do not have time for lengthy explanations now, but water crystals occur by chance.

First the shape of each water crystal cannot be predicted and no two water crystals are identical.

Secondly, for water crystals to form at all the planet must be of the right size, temperature and atmospheric pressure to allow liquid water rise in the atmosphere and allow it to fall again in solid form in the shape of ice crystals.

All these parameters occur by pure chance.
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by tpia5: 2:55am On Jan 19, 2013
nice snowflake picture.
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by ooman(m): 12:47am On Apr 27, 2013
davidylan:

This statement is the epitome of idiocy. Read this 2-3 times... does it make sense?

The purpose of life is the creation and preservation of more life? What does that mean? The purpose of rain is to create and maintain rain? Senseless

This line of thought is very dumb.

Since a clock was designed to tell time, and it does that, then its purpose is to tell time.

If life replicates and if it was designed, then its purpose is to replicate.

if rain fall and if it was designed, then its purpose is to form and fall.
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by ooman(m): 12:50am On Apr 27, 2013
davidylan:

Ice crystals are not created by chance, it is the fine-tuning of precise physical laws. Is temperature by chance?

Perhaps the meaning of chance beats you. chances means spontaneous, without aim. This is exactly what is observable in nature.
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by Nobody: 7:08am On Apr 27, 2013
jagunlabi: According to astronomers, they are discovering star clusters older than the 12-15 million year old universe. Can you explain that? The astronomers are finding out that the universe is much much older than the scientists have computed it to be.

which scientists in ur village discovered star clusters older than the universe? U better some credible evidence (not some religious site) or forever shut ur gob.
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by ooman(m): 7:20am On Apr 27, 2013
^^^the guy's comments were so irritating that I refused to quote him.
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by Nobody: 7:28am On Apr 27, 2013
ooman: ^^^the guy's comments were so irritating that I refused to quote him.


Please, you are needed here;

https://www.nairaland.com/1271368/religion-true-why-it-full

edited
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by Nobody: 7:37am On Apr 27, 2013
The problem with these sorts of arguments is that it is limited by our understanding and observations of the universe. No one can really say for sure. But I like the fact that most scientists and atheists keep an open mind as to the origin of the universe unlike the religious who just makes weird claims based on century old parchments.

If we say there is no God, that leads to classic Argumentum ad ignorantiam, a fallacy. Because we cant prove the existence of something doesnt mean that God does not exist. Because something is unobservable doesnt render the existence of such a thing null. So there is an argument to be made for the existence of God considering the pattern and design that we see.

But if we say there is God, that leads to an infinite regress. Why should there be God? because we couldnt have come by chance (out of nothing). Ok, agreed. Then that leads to the question: who created God? And what created what created God? Hence we run into an infinte regress where one proposition has to be backed up by another propostion. And if we say that God couldnt have been created by anyone, He is all in all, bla bla bla, this gives power to the atheists' argument. Why cant it be that the universe created itself? aawhy cant it be that we are an expression of the universe sprung out of nothingness? Could it be that we are all a part of what we call God? The questions abound

Personally I believe in Intelligent Design since I am a Deist. But one thing I dont believe is that folktale written in the bible about the origin of the world and that the world is 6000-8000 years old.
Re: Chance Or Intelligent Design (creation) by ooman(m): 7:49am On Apr 27, 2013
^^^what is certain is that if there is no god in the observed world, then there is no god in the parts we have not observed.

I love to take this argument with deists than with xtians, even xtians now abandon their bible and take deistic position this days.

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