₦airaland Forum

ThickSharon123:
Ekealterego, Slayforever, 9pluto, Please respond to nwatakiri (Glorious Igbo word for a child)

LOL, see how you got me laughing out loud.

I do not know why it seems so difficult to understand.
There is a debate about identity, then your opponent goes to excavate centuries old records he did not author. You have not brought out your own counter record, yet you claim his account is a lie. Please, make it make sense.

JANK23H:
You have all pretended not to see Captain Pereira's account of the fifteenth century.Nobody countered... �

You'd rather stay in the comfort zone of the 19th century.

Why not post it here, so that even if your opponents do not agree with you other people reading this write ups will find out the truth for themselves.

Mind you everything cannot be said here, that is why we are asking both parties to go and do their research then come to a live debate. Unfortunately, nobody has been able to pick up the challenge including Professor Allagoa's student.

Ekealterego:
They are trying to eliminate any trace of Igbo in Bonny people. IYC keeps intruding their threads, threatening them to abandon Igbo language.
You can see that the Ibani people are not having any of that.

Wow...this is impressive. At least most of them agree they do not need to discard the igbo identity. The main task now is to let them understand, why and how come they are speaking igbo. Their ancestors were not slaves in bonny as claimed, neither was the igbo language the language for trading. they are bona fide pro genies of proud igbo Bonny and Opobo progenitors.

The acclaimed Ebane too is actually the igbo dialect of Bonny as proven by recorded history.

The name bonny is because they referred to themselves as Ebane, other igbos called them obani/ubani while kalabari called them Ibani.

Vintagepipes:
........Herein, I reckon comes the connection. The Bonny Igbo ancestors and the Brassmen had a covenant with Brass gods at some point in history.
.......................... See, this is how the Igbani dialect came around.

This your post tallies 100% with the post on the first page(I hope you checked it out). Just go and read that thread. Igbanni is an igbo dialect, unfortunately ijaws are claiming igbos were mere slaves and not the natives. However, I noticed that the book was more like an academic material making references as it was littered with many modern words like Nigeria.

Let me post this for the benefit of ijaws claiming the coast up to ibeno.

Vintagepipes:
The Lower Niger and its tribes
Author: Arthur Glyn Leonard
Publisher: London ; New York : Macmillan, 1906.

I believe the book clarified so many things but raised a few more debates, from the little snippets I can see.

It is about 600 pages.

This book is about 100 years later than the first major historical documentation of Bonny from way back 1798, yet we are still looking for the ijaw connection to Bonny.

At least, we have ascertained that igbos were in Bonny as Kings, Natives and Slaves.

One of them should be bold enough and come to a live debate possibly on BBC.

Vintagepipes:
Yes, see that Kamalu especially drew my attention. The name is common among Ndoki and Old Bende.
Some old Bende people now shorten it to Kalu and Kanu these days.

Oh, I just checked, even Ngwa still bear the name. See this guy contesting elections-

....That caught my attention first, even before the rest.

I am sure you won't see that Kamalu in all their fabricated records of Bonny Kings. The other ones are now being misspelt.

Vintagepipes:
Those lists are like the later list.
This list I will upload were generations before Peppel/Peprell. These were the fathers of Peppel--
.................I remember very very well, I saw this list by a certain Major Glynn Leonard around 1899-6, the edition was published ín mcmilian books,
Bkayy
Igboid
Ekealterego
SlayerForever
and our Ejor friends, you are invited to view this
Perekule and Foubra happened much later.

Please, what is the title of this book.

It is amusing that all historical artefacts points at an obvious ijaw revisionism. I still ask, where were Ijaws when this story of Bonny and Opobo was been documented from way back 1800? Were they so invisible to be documented.

Someone is now so bold to claim Perekule ancestry and trying to supplant the indigenous language.

Alabo7978:
[b][/b]

"now guys do you know that from available records, slaves can't be king in Bonny"

did you see YOUR OWN statement up there?
yet you open your lieng mouth, all of you to claim Bonny Kings were igbos.

bit by bit the web that you weave will tangle y'all.

Let me hope you don't have a comprehension problem.

Ijaws claim igbos in Bonny were slaves or they were selling igbo slaves (a lie that has been tested and proven to be fake).

Now I am pointing out to you that slaves couldn't be kings in Bonny. Meaning, no matter how successful Jaja was in Bonny for example, he couldn't become King. Whereas there have been several Bonny Kings before Jaja was born who were igbo.

Vintagepipes:
There is a Kamalu.
He was a king in Bonny, I will find it.

However, I don't think the names of the king matters, because their kings from a small analysis I did had diverse names. Mostly English, Igbo and some sort of hybrid one cannot really trace.

I didn't see the Kamalu. The ones I found were address in English as Pepple and assert they are of igbo descent.
It is important to address this because revisionists are claiming Pepple was a European attempt at pronouncing Perekule, an odious lie that has been busted since the origin of the name Pepple has been sorted.

One author recently published his lie, 'We are sons of Perekule'. I am waiting for him to launch it so we can burst his lies.

I have been able to identify at least 4 Bonny Igbo kings explicitly stated. 3 Pepple and 1 other one.

Another account recorded 2 igbo head of houses.

Now guys do you know that from available records a slave couldn't be King in Bonny.

This was a problem for Jaja and the Bonny civil war gave him an opportunity to carry out his plans of asserting himself hence he became King of Opobo. This thrashes the aculturization fiction.

I have also heard fictions about Opobo becoming ijaw because Jaja married ijaw women, well while I haven't found out the number of wives he had, one account said to solidify his grasp of Opobo, Jaja entered into both marriage and blood covenant with the hinterland people who he was trading with.

Please, someone should kindly reach out out to the current Amanyanabo of Opobo, we need to tell him something.

Anyone who knows the date he would be visiting Amaigbo should also drop it here.

I chooro I Perekule m?
Meaning: Do you want to deceive me?

cc
Slayerforever
Igboid
Ofoigbo
Eastlink
Ekealterego
Bkayy
Vintagepipes

Vintagepipes:
The Ibo and Ibibio-speaking peoples of south-eastern Nigeria
by Forde, Cyril Daryll, 1902-
Published 1950

Welcome to the party bro. I am so happy guys are now digging and reading. No more conjectures(from beer parlours) or fictions (my papa talk say). Pure historical accounts from neutral authors who walked the land with our ancestors.

Enough of revised Nigerian history.

Anonymous15:
you want to be blind, stupid or daft which?
I said igbinni and you're respelling it.
now I know you don't know anything.
koeller talked about how the igbos were not born there but are slaves gotten from the hinterlands.
and you want koeller to mention to you that bonnys are ijohs when you see the language which also Talley's with ajayi crowther.
e be like say you no read understand very well.
ok, where did the white man wrote that Igbo sprung from Aguleri?
so you're waiting for a foreigner to tell you so abi?
ode.
I am not of the ijo clan itself, and I and every other people here still tell you we sprung from ijo; bro you should be worried.
I am a Nembe man. we all trace our ORIGIN to ijo,
same as the igbos trace there's to Aguleri even though a white man didn't write that to you you dunce.
that same "MOTHER TONGUE" is what is spoken in Calabari but you're still arguing blindly like a bull pig.
I am sure you haven't been to Bonny.
so igbos who you claim hate the waters but chose lands for farming will now migrate to swampy place the same you claimed they hated mosquitoes and the sickness in the swamp.
nigga your lies smell through nairaland and my phone.
even Bahia a town in Brazil where Yoruba slaves were mostly shipped to by the Portuguese and today there's a large black population there, they speak Yoruba, they do IFA divination and rituals but never has the yorubas grabbed Bahia from the people; imagined if it were Igbos, your clowns will cook stories on how they built ships and migrated there before the Brazilians themselves.
I am still waiting for you to explain to me how you beat the Aborigines to an island who have that same island at their backyard, no be juju be that?
explain to me your lieng dunce.
it is clear,
[b]koeller saying the igbos who were there were SLAVES and were brought from the hinterlands, and they adopted the Bonny dialect.
crowther and pepple said Bonny is CHIEFLY PEOPLED by IBO SLAVES though they speak the Bonny dialect WHICH IS ALSO THE LANGUAGE SPOKEN IN NEW CALABAR (CALABARI)
if Bonny is ndoki language, can we now say the language spoken in Calabari is NDOKI[b]

if you don't answer that question up there, don't bother replying me.

Unless you want to be mischievous, several authors made it known that Kalabari and Bonny are not the same (Kingship, language etc). So Kalabari can't be Ndoki.

I will only answer you again if you are more civil.

SlayerForever:
Ohhhhhh Ani as in earth!

So what of Anna Pepple

Anna Pepple is a fiction.

I just saw another article spell it as Anne Pepple, so it is beginning to make sense.

Igboid:
Where in the write up did Koller say that Bonny was peopled by Ijaws?
Just show me one place he said so?

All you have done is bit around the bush.

Your Koller noted also that Bonny people called Igbos "Igbinni"(Igbanni?)

What do you think about this

There is no lie in our argument.
We have presented all receipts, and you have none but to beat around the bush.

Yes! The slaves in Bonny were mainly Igbos, but they were not of Ndoki origin, they were of Isu origin.
The Igbo spoken in Bonny is not Isu, it's Ndoki. Because Bonny always had Indigenous Igbo speaking people of Ndoki extraction who had taken a distinct ethnicity of just "Bonny".

I keep wondering why most of them keep making empty threats at the expense of engaging in an intelligent conversation.

Can he bold come to a live debate with that book he just referenced.
Baike properly defined the Ijos and there territory in including the fact that they were sometimes referred to as Oru.

NO author, not even one has mention ijaw and Bonny on the same page not to talk of sentence.

The implications of confirming that Bonny called igbos igbinni is also lost on him.

Hello Guys, please does anyone have access to Google docs? I need to find out something.

cc
Slayerforever
Bkayy
Ekealterego
Igboid
Ofoigbo
Eastlink

From what I am seeing someone may need to write a book about, 'The Pepples, a succession of successful igbo kings'.


@Ofoigbo in that literature you quoted Baike as telling us who Bonny people were, you were not magnanimous enough to tell us that he mentioned the ijo and thoroughly defined their territory.

Lots if fictions in ijaw Wikipedia accounts.

Annie Pepple is actually Ani pepple

bomb24:
Igbo is civilization, civilization is Igbo! you're welcome Nwanne.

At the rate you are going, you guys would soon unearth the first igbo man to get to Lagos.

I thought I was an informed Nigerian, but with what I have discovered this past weeks including this information I think the Nigerian government owes it as a duty to teach it citizens of their proud history. Despite the unfortunate blight of the civil war, there's a lot to be proud of.

I have always thought that claims of igbo people as great blacksmiths was a ruse. But this confirms it. Contrary to claims and assumptions, igbo indeed have a proud history.

Thank you OP @bomb24 for this piece of history, the term Oka made now begins to make sense.

Igboid:
I don't have the full document from Koelle.
Just this snippet.

https://www.historians.org/teaching-and-learning/teaching-resources-for-historians/teaching-and-learning-in-the-digital-age/through-the-lens-of-history-biafra-nigeria-the-west-and-the-world/the-colonial-and-pre-colonial-eras-in-nigeria/an-outsiders-view-of-the-igbo-people-(1840)

Okay, I have gone through parts of it. It is actually a translation someone made in English in 1978.
It also suggests Bonny referred to igbo as igbanni (so it gets confusing maybe due to translations). We have seen other articles say igbos refer to Bonny as Ubani/Obani

What still marvels me however is that there hasn't been a single article linking Bonny with Ijaw in all of this.

Igboid:
I don't have the full document from Koelle.
Just this snippet.

https://www.historians.org/teaching-and-learning/teaching-resources-for-historians/teaching-and-learning-in-the-digital-age/through-the-lens-of-history-biafra-nigeria-the-west-and-the-world/the-colonial-and-pre-colonial-eras-in-nigeria/an-outsiders-view-of-the-igbo-people-(1840)

Men, you deserve an honorary degree in history.

Thank you.

Please, I beg you guys to stop responding to that guy.

Someone that posted that map he posted in a debate about Benin and Anioma cannot be a normal human being. Unless he is high on some cheap crystal meth. Just go look at the map he posted and you will see why you should not answer him.

I guess he just finished impacting ignorance in students in school and he is back to find a soothing relief from his frustrations. Please, don't indulge him.

cc
Slayerforever
Ofoigbo
Eastlink
Ekealterego
Igboid
Bkayy

Please, who is Koelle? Can someone identify him and mention his book?

Igboid:
http://www.opensourceguinea.org/2014/05/peppel-ex-king-of-bonny-in-clarence.html?m=1

Check out page 422, I took a screenshot.

Thank you bro for this material as it seems valuable. Let us all look at it and revert here.

This is what I have been challenge our ijaw friends to come up with but they have not been forthcoming.

Igboid:
It's Baike work.
I have checked it out myself.
Let me provide you with it.
I'm coming.

Yes the one he posted was an Ijaw distorted work which dubiously quoted Baike number system, but smartly avoided where Baike unequivocally stated that the people of Bonny told him that they originate from Igboland.

Just give me a minute let me provide you a link to the original Baike document.

Please, do so we all can take a look.
Thanks.

Igboid:
How do we explain how Baike ended up with those Kalabari number systems as Bonny numbers when we know that Bonny use Ndoki Igbo number system today and that the number system provided by captain Crow earlier matches what is obtainable in Bonny today.

The data and info we have before us would somehow have to be interpreted.

1. At some point in Bonny, the number system and language switched from Igbo to Kalabari and then back to Igbo we have today. Crow met it when it was Igbo, Baike met it when it was Kalabari and we are now in an era where it is back to being Igbo?

2. There were non Igbo speaking parts of Bonny Kingdom and it was this part that Baike collected the Ijoid number system from?

3. Dismiss Baike report totally for being contradictory?

My point is that data and inform not only has to be collected and presented, they have to be rationally examined and interpreted.

If you are talking about the posted book.

That is not Baike's work as he was obviously quoted in the upper section of that page.

The person who wrote that book was referring to Baike while writing his own book.

If you are talking about the posted book.

That is not Baike's work as he was obviously quoted in the upper section of that page.

The person who wrote that book was referring to Baike while writing his own book.

bomb24:
That is not baikies work. it was written by one fumbo around 1980's. they should provide his main excerpt from his work and the exact page.

I'm going to attach an image, so i want you too carefully look below the page you will see the year and the reference.

I wanted to wanted to ask you to provide references until I saw the attached pages myself.

That is not Baike's work as he was obviously quoted the the upper section of that page.

The person who wrote that book was referring to Baike while writing his own book.

Igboid:
Nope.
I have checked it.
It was actually Baike work.

I believe its either a mistake on part of Baike.
Or it could be that there were other non Bonny Igbo speaking villages that was part of Ancient Bonny kingdom and the number system Baike collected belonged to those villages.
For example, the old Opobo included Ikot Abasi which is Ibibio speaking and other few Ijaw speaking villages like Finima and co.
So when one speak of Opobo, one has to be deliberate in specifying that one is talking about the Igbo speaking Opobo main town, and not Kalabari speaking Villages like Finima and co who are still considered as part of Opobo Kingdom.

I made another example with Ozanogogo and Agbor.

The basis of this debate is that the ijaws insists there are no indigenous igbos in both places.

If there is a contradiction in Baike's work let us know what this contradictions are, the literatures that published them, dates etc

Igboid:
There is something I noted too in course of my research here.

It would appear there is a Bonny main town which they call Grand Bonny. Then there are other smaller villages which surrounds it and are part of Bonny kingdom.
For example, in the past, Opobo Kingdom included Ikot Abasi, who are actually Ibibiod speakers and Opobo town itself.

So when an explorer arrives in Ikot Abasi and start interviewing the occupants, they would say they were Opobo people, which is true, afterall King JAJA was there king and they were part of Opobo Kingdom.
But you would find out that if you collect the language of Ikot Abasi and present it as Opobo language, you would be right and also wrong. You would be wrong since the language would be Ibibiod and not Igboid as obtained in Opobo main town, and you would be right since Ikot Abasi are Opobo people and by right, their language also qualify as Opobo language.

I believe there are some Kalabari speaking (the so called Ibani language is basically Kalabari language) people that were part of Bonny kingdom.
These people lived in their own villages, considered themselves part of Bonny and paid royalty to Bonny kings.
So when an explorer land in this part of Bonny kingdom, the words he would gather would definitely be Kalabari words( modern day called Ibani) and not the Ndoki words used in Grand Bonny.

I think this could be the reason for the discrepancy in Baike reports.

No conjectures please. All proposition should have a literature referenced. Besides we understand the relationship between Ikot Abasi and Opobo. You also seems to be jumping into conclusions. Do you know which language is ibani language?

Crazybeard:
No it wasn't a map of the book.The map is to confirm the names of the Rivers and situate them properly with modern day NigerDelta.The English/present names of those rivers are in the footnote of the excerpt,so with the map one can identify properly.

Okay. Now I understand because I would have been shocked if it was from him.

[quote author=Crazybeard post=108180490][/quote]I just read this pages you posted and I can't find anything there. Maybe you can help. What do you want me to take note of here.

Crazybeard:
A Commentary on Duarte Pacheco Pereira's Account of the Lower Guinea Coastlands in His "Esmeraldo de Situ Orbis," and on Some Other Early Accounts
J. D. Fage
History in Africa
Vol. 7 (1980), pp. 47-80 (34 pages)
Published By: Cambridge University Press



Esmeraldo De Situ Orbis
by Pereira, Duarte Pacheco
Translated to English from Portuguese

Those are the two reference materials used.

VALENTIM FERNANDES' FIVE MAPS AND THE EARLY HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY OF SÃO TOMÉ is another good read.

From my brief observation, it seems J.D. Fages History of Africa was published in 1978 and your reference clearly stated 1980.

Is none of you passionate enough about this subject to come to a live debate?

JANK23H:
You started out as a neutral OP,over time you've showed your hands as being biased.Anyhow,I would have responded to most comments here but some overzealous Mod put me on freeze

Back to the discuss of Captain Pereira's account on the true indigenous tribes of Bonny.On page 132 in the Chapter titled the "Life and Habit of the Jos",He stated the Jos occupied the areas around the river Cabo Fermosa to the river Rio Real(Rivers Cabo Fermosa,Rio de Sam Bento,San Ilefenso,Rio de Santa Barbara,Rio Pequeno to Rio Real).

The Rio Real is the combined estuary of New Calabar and Bonny Rivers.You may recall from one of the screenshots I uploaded,he said the Jos traded mainly on Slaves and Ivory.

From the attached excerpt,he alluded to the Bonny village (corroborated by Dr. Fage's commentary) as a population of about 2000 inhabitants where much salts and bigger canoes are made.

From the footnotes one can tell the English names of those rivers.
Rio Pequeno-Sambrero River
Rio de Sam Bento-Brass River
Ilefenso-St Nicholas River.

I am happy to say you are the FIRST person to have posted a reasonable counter argument.
I have tried to be as neutral as possible. As you would have noticed most of my claims have been properly referenced. The updates I made on the original post have been based on brought up evidences of NEUTRAL authors. Not Igbo not ijaw authors for obvious reasons.
I went as far as volunteering for a life debate and up till now, NOBODY has been bold enough to challenge me about, "you own history".

I wish most of you would be more objective (unless you know the truth and want to be intentionally dishonest).

Kindly properly reference your article. The name, the author's name and date of publication.

Meanwhile, I hope that map you uploaded wasn't from the book you referenced because I see maps of Rivers, Bayelsa and Imo State there.