₦airaland Forum

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najib632:
How won't you say this, if you want to claim that Allah does not exist then prove it in all aspects not only one.

Point out one lie I said here? With all your knowledge you're still arrogant, you're only saying it's non-sense but you didn't prove it, If threatening to curse(that you don't believe in) is militancy then have it your way.

You want me to prove that Allah does not exist? Lol, and you claim you're intelligent bro. You cannot prove a negative. The burden of proof that Allah exists is on you, and which you have woefully failed to prove. You're the one claiming Allah exists, I have not claimed anything here, I have only rejected your claims.

So, in this case (where your claims are rejected), you have to practically prove that thw favorite God of yours exist. And that's how science has been able to solve problems until date. We have hypothesis, then we do experiments or practicalize to get proofs.
But here you are, you want me to have faith that Allah exist without proof.

What warranted threats to curse me? That's online militancy bro. If it were to be one on one, you would have gone violent. Which is one of the features of Muslims. So, I wasn't surprised.

tintingz:
Lol, it seem God have no "choice" than to give freewill. What an irony.

God wants us to worship him(this is what he want), then again he gave us freewill to choose to worship him or not to worship him(this is what he want), then again he threaten us to worship him or burn in hell forever(now I'm coming confused).

That is some sadist confused freeky God.

These people who believe in God are the guilty ones. They just let us ridicule their empty concept.

sino:
My work is done here!

And so is mine.

sino:
As usual, always prevaricating and bringing up unrelated issue(s), it so much shows your inadequacies. By the way, you brought the issue of ego and that is what my quoted post was addressing, and taking your gaffe into consideration with regards to a scientific journal which was further broken down by a science magazine, your supposed study of biochemistry and grasp of science à la the scientific method is suspect!

All I need to establish here is that you are indeed responsible for your own choices/decisions/actions, whatever rants you may imagine and spew online doesn't change this fact, so when the consequences do eventually come, don't look for who to blame, because that is just very silly!

Lol, you're still lost in the world of your ignorance. What did your statement of me studying biochemistry had to do with you not being able to see that your god cannot be omniscient because there are some things it doesn't know. All happening in your imaginations. And the issue of your God's ego and pride, despite not being able to lead by example after telling his followers to be humble is alarming at its peak. It is not my business that the myth is valid to you, and me studying biochemistry and also disagreeing with your bogus scientific journal based on hypothesis and not experimental procedures does have nothing to do with it either. Grow up and tender your points like a man.

I know I am responsible for my actions, I don't need you to establish that, however I can correct your mythical mentality that a presupposed entity that cannot be proved to exist gave me the ability to make my choices. Leave the consequences of my actions for me to deal with, I am not a sissy like you that runs to your imaginary friend for help when you encounter problems. Just prove that your mythical supreme being exist, and we won't be doing this at all.

sino:
Lol, God has all the right to brag and be proud! Have you tried to imagine the vastness and complexity of the universe?! What about man and the amazing features embedded in him? You that have only studied bch for few years did not let us hear word, you never discovered anything o, you just dey read other people work ni o...

You chose not to worship God, because God had given you the freedom of will. God gave you the will to choose either to worship him or to deny him, it is not surprising to God that you chose the latter, because there are only two possibilities here...God had willed it so!

Since you believe God doesn't exist, and no one is forcing you to believe, then know that you are indeed responsible for your actions, and that is what is most important, cos at the end of the day, you have yourself to blame for any eventualities!

I have studied biochemistry for few years and groomed in the scientific methods. So if someone else applied the scientific methods to any work they did and provide evidence, I can read their works and be sure they did a good job. I don't need to discover anything for scientific theories to be valid. I thought you knew this but as usual, your ignorance wins again

And it is very honest to follow scientific works which are not based on personal experience or personal delusions than to follow a personal, deranged person who claims he can hear or see spirits. Or have you also heard from God? You need to think before shooting yourself in the foot.

God gave me the freewill to be able to choose not to worship him? Lmao, do you think before you type at all? If God wants me to worship him, why give me freewill to be able to choose not to worship him? Seems to me like a very confused God.If God willed it so, why get angry or punish me that his will came to pass? Confusion is the order of the day. And if it makes you feel like you're intelligent, a fish must also be intelligent then.

najib632:
Brother, Allah is the all knowing and as only He can guide... I ask for forgiveness and mercy from Allah, by all indications this apostate has taken his seat in hell because of his insincerity, arrogance and ignorance.
There's a seal upon his heart, I stopped arguing with them on the other thread because I realised him and Akin1212 were insincere, I asked them about Fibonacci numbers, tintinz dodged it tactically, while Akin1212 didn't even comment at all, I asked them about the existence of human giants (which goes against evolution ), tintinz and Akin1212 did as if they did not see it the question, I asked them about Nuclear transmutation and the lack of the ability of scientists to create organic materials from pure elements) tintinz said I shouldn't go off topic(because he focused only evolution and some other nonsense and he thinks that's enough to deny the existence of Allah) he talked about Santa Claus that everyone knows is a myth and he's comparing him to Allah the people that even made it up believe in Allah, I realised his insincerity the more and more we argued. The best Akin1212 could do was when he told me about scientific method and some questions I asked he didn't say anything tangible other talking arrogantly.

Big time red herring.

You became emotional and extremely pained. And you wanted to start online militancy, or have you forgotten? You made empty threats to curse me because your tolerance level as expected was not large enough. And me being me, I don't exchange words with ignorants talk more of ignorant e-extremists. So I had to preserve my time by not responding to any of the nonsense you had to say. Why are you now lying here?

usermane:
To me, Atheism is not foolishness. In fact, it has attractive merits like deeper appreciation and focus for current life which may motivate human creativity or productivity. But it has strange drawbacks that lead many to just conclude it is foolish. I'll list a couple of them.

1. Origin of Life - Life can only originate from pre-existing life. Atheism still can't account for origin of life.

Abiogenesis

usermane:
2. Divine justice - No difference between the fate of evil doers and good doers after death. Atheism tend to let people get away with evil.

Why can't the fate be decided before death? Because God isthe God of the dead? People get away with evil fine fine and nothing happens. God will rather allow a 2 year old girl to be raped and punish the rapist when he is dead? That's nonsense.

usermane:
.

Divine protection - People feel protected by their God/god(s), atheism is abandoning this 'protection', leaving people vulnerable to all harms.

Hundreds of people of God died in Congo last year during the ebola outbreak. Thousands have died in Yemen due to hunger. Thousands are living with cancer and other diseases. Where is the divine protection?

usermane:
Just my two cents. I hope tintingz, Akin1212 & other atheists now better understand why some theists speak so condescendingly about atheism.

You haven't said anything reasonable.

It's like this prophecy business is really nice oo. Dude just sit somewhere and he is predicting nonsense for these fools. Nigeria is gone.

Saintsammurai:
what an old man sees while sitteth down, a child cannot see even if he climbs an iroko tree.

Shut the Bleep up nigga. Thunder slap that your stupid life there.

najib632:
Musa A.S. is the prophet of the Jews how can it be Fairy tales?
Ooo... I see now you're very lost, you better change:

وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَسْتَمِعُ إِلَيْكَ ۖ وَجَعَلْنَا عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ أَكِنَّةً أَنْ يَفْقَهُوهُ وَفِي آذَانِهِمْ وَقْرًا ۚ وَإِنْ يَرَوْا كُلَّ آيَةٍ لَا يُؤْمِنُوا بِهَا ۚ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا جَاءُوكَ يُجَادِلُونَكَ يَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِنْ هَٰذَا إِلَّا أَسَاطِيرُ الْأَوَّلِينَ


(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
There are those among them who (apparently) listen to you, but We have put coverings on their hearts, so that they do not understand, and heaviness in their ears. If they were to see all the signs, they would still not believe in them, so much so that, when they come to quarrel with you, the disbelievers say (of the Qur’ān), “It is nothing but tales of the ancients.”


-Sura Al-An'am, Ayah 25

وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ إِحْسَانًا ۖ حَمَلَتْهُ أُمُّهُ كُرْهًا وَوَضَعَتْهُ كُرْهًا ۖ وَحَمْلُهُ وَفِصَالُهُ ثَلَاثُونَ شَهْرًا ۚ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ وَبَلَغَ أَرْبَعِينَ سَنَةً قَالَ رَبِّ أَوْزِعْنِي أَنْ أَشْكُرَ نِعْمَتَكَ الَّتِي أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيَّ وَعَلَىٰ وَالِدَيَّ وَأَنْ أَعْمَلَ صَالِحًا تَرْضَاهُ وَأَصْلِحْ لِي فِي ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ إِنِّي تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ وَإِنِّي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
And We have enjoined upon man to do good to his parents. His mother carried him with difficulty and delivered him with difficulty. And his carrying and his weaning is (in) thirty months, until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says, “My Lord, grant me that I offer gratitude for the favour You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and that I do righteous deeds that You like. And set righteousness, for my sake, in my progeny. Of course, I repent to you, and truly I am one of those who submit to You.”

-Sura Al-Ahqaf, Ayah 15

أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ نَتَقَبَّلُ عَنْهُمْ أَحْسَنَ مَا عَمِلُوا وَنَتَجَاوَزُ عَنْ سَيِّئَاتِهِمْ فِي أَصْحَابِ الْجَنَّةِ ۖ وَعْدَ الصِّدْقِ الَّذِي كَانُوا يُوعَدُونَ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
Such are the people from whom We accept the best of what they did, and overlook their evil deeds, (so as they will be) among the people of Paradise according to the true promise that was made to them.

-Sura Al-Ahqaf, Ayah 16

وَالَّذِي قَالَ لِوَالِدَيْهِ أُفٍّ لَكُمَا أَتَعِدَانِنِي أَنْ أُخْرَجَ وَقَدْ خَلَتِ الْقُرُونُ مِنْ قَبْلِي وَهُمَا يَسْتَغِيثَانِ اللَّهَ وَيْلَكَ آمِنْ إِنَّ وَعْدَ اللَّهِ حَقٌّ فَيَقُولُ مَا هَٰذَا إِلَّا أَسَاطِيرُ الْأَوَّلِينَ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
And (Contrary to this is the case of) the one who said to his parents, “Fie upon you both! Do you promise to me that I shall be brought out (from the grave), while generations have passed before me?” And they (the parents) were crying for Allah’s help, (and saying to their son,) “Woe to you. Accept the true faith. Allah’s promise is certainly true.” Then he says, “This is nothing but the tales of the ancients.”

-Sura Al-Ahqaf, Ayah 17

أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ حَقَّ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقَوْلُ فِي أُمَمٍ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ مِنَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنْسِ ۖ إِنَّهُمْ كَانُوا خَاسِرِينَ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
Such are the people on whom the word (of punishment) has come true along with the communities of the Jinn and the humans that have passed before them. Surely they were losers.

-Sura Al-Ahqaf, Ayah 18

Trash. Thrown into the wastebin. How hard is it for you to use simple logic?

najib632:
Very well, I see why the devil has been successful in misguiding you, I thought you were a proud person but it more than that, you're very arrogant too, this will cause you doom and this is what caused the devil his great status, becareful... I don't know of what language Allah spoke, I only know of what he has told me and He is the only One Who has the attribute of knowing all things, I have not seen Allah so I don't know if He does, but one day I will by His mercy... if you want to know too then you will have to submit to Allah, but I guess not, May Allah guide you if you're worth it.

Nonsense. Na today?
Allah told you something and he didn'tgive you the full version? Keep deceiving yourself there. I pity this your level of ignorance. Lol. You that you have submitted to Allah and you still reek of ignorance this much, you want me to be as ignorant as you are? Never! Go away with your Allah.

najib632:
I never said it happened because Allah spoke, if He wanted He wouldn't have spoken and it would still have happen, Allah wanted what was required of building a universe and that what happened, you were the one saying trash to me the other time, that I am mediocre, but you can't even Imagine things properly and you that doesn't even believe in magic is thinking that Allah needs to do incantations when He is the Boss.

Of course I am ordinary but I am better than those who disbelieve in Allah:
بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ وَالتِّينِ وَالزَّيْتُونِ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
I swear by the Fig and the Olive,
-Sura At-Tin, Ayah 1
وَطُورِ سِينِينَ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
and by Tūr, the mount of Sinai,
-Sura At-Tin, Ayah 2

وَهَٰذَا الْبَلَدِ الْأَمِينِ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
and by this peaceful city,

-Sura At-Tin, Ayah 3

لَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ فِي أَحْسَنِ تَقْوِيمٍ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
We have created man in the best composition,

-Sura At-Tin, Ayah 4

ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَاهُ أَسْفَلَ سَافِلِينَ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
then We turned him into the lowest of the low,

-Sura At-Tin, Ayah 5

إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ فَلَهُمْ أَجْرٌ غَيْرُ مَمْنُونٍ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
except those who believed and did righteous deeds, because for them there is a reward never ending.

-Sura At-Tin, Ayah 6

فَمَا يُكَذِّبُكَ بَعْدُ بِالدِّينِ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
So, what can make you, after all this, to deny the Requital?

-Sura At-Tin, Ayah 7

أَلَيْسَ اللَّهُ بِأَحْكَمِ الْحَاكِمِينَ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
Is Allah not the Greatest Ruler of all the rulers?

-Sura At-Tin, Ayah 8

I would have cursed you for insulting the prophets of Allah, but I don't want to add to your pettyness.
No you haven't explained to me why a book revealed to a Man from the Arabian desert knows most of this factors before you? How could the most uncivlised nation and region on the earth at that time defeat two world powers in just 7 years? How come some of the many things that atheists brag about now are works of some of his followers and some are in depth translation of his book? Even the year a man landed on the moon is the Qur'an to let you know...
If you like keep on being arrogant don't become open minded, Allah is not in need of any human being, we were created to do what a creation before us failed to do and you're just a number from those the devil has misguided...

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ
اقْرَأْ بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
Read with the name of your Lord who created (every thing),

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 1

خَلَقَ الْإِنْسَانَ مِنْ عَلَقٍ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
He created man from a clot of blood.

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 2

اقْرَأْ وَرَبُّكَ الْأَكْرَمُ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
Read, and your Lord is the most gracious,

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 3

الَّذِي عَلَّمَ بِالْقَلَمِ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
who imparted knowledge by means of the pen.

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 4

عَلَّمَ الْإِنْسَانَ مَا لَمْ يَعْلَمْ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
He taught man what he did not know.

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 5

كَلَّا إِنَّ الْإِنْسَانَ لَيَطْغَىٰ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
In fact, man crosses the limits,

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 6

أَنْ رَآهُ اسْتَغْنَىٰ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
because he deems himself to be free of need.

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 7

إِنَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكَ الرُّجْعَىٰ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
Surely to your Lord is the return.

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 8

أَرَأَيْتَ الَّذِي يَنْهَىٰ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
Have you seen him who forbids

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 9

أَرَأَيْتَ الَّذِي يَنْهَىٰ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
Have you seen him who forbids

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 9

عَبْدًا إِذَا صَلَّىٰ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
a servant of Allah when he prays?

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 10

أَرَأَيْتَ إِنْ كَانَ عَلَى الْهُدَىٰ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
Tell me, if he is on the right path,

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 11

أَوْ أَمَرَ بِالتَّقْوَىٰ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
or bids piety, (would the former still forbid him?)

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 12

أَرَأَيْتَ إِنْ كَذَّبَ وَتَوَلَّىٰ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
Tell me, if he rejects (the true faith) and turns away,

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 13

أَلَمْ يَعْلَمْ بِأَنَّ اللَّهَ يَرَىٰ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
does he not know that Allah is watching (him)?

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 14

كَلَّا لَئِنْ لَمْ يَنْتَهِ لَنَسْفَعًا بِالنَّاصِيَةِ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
No! If he does not desist, We will certainly drag (him) by forelock,

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 15

نَاصِيَةٍ كَاذِبَةٍ خَاطِئَةٍ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
a lying, sinful forelock.

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 16

فَلْيَدْعُ نَادِيَهُ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
So let him call the men of his council,

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 17

سَنَدْعُ الزَّبَانِيَةَ

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
We will call the soldiers of the Hell.

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 18

كَلَّا لَا تُطِعْهُ وَاسْجُدْ وَاقْتَرِبْ ۩

(Mufti Taqi Usmani)
No! Never obey him, and bow down in sajdah, and come close to Me.

-Sura Al-Alaq, Ayah 19

Repent...

Trash, you keep quoting verses from that fairy tale book called quran. When are you going to start using your head?

Lol, did yoi say you would have cursed me? Oh, you want to fight for Allah and his prophets? Extremists like you are not supposed to have graced this world. Your likes are the reason religion is a bad influence. You have taken fairy tales so serious that you can even kill for it. Lol, curse me dude. It's here on Nairaland it will end.

Allah didn't create shit. Can something that doesn't exist even create anything? It's obvious you don't even know a bit of science. I see you're trying to justify science with the quran, lmao. You think the quran justifies science? If that nonsense in the quran was science, why then didn't God create the world with simple electricity as default? All the pseudo science in the quran were copied from Galen and Aristotle who had lived even before your prophet was born. Galen and Aristotle worked and published their books, your prophet copied their works and told his fellow illiterates that it was from Allah. Dude, learn, unlearn and relearn. Drop your fantasies. You are no more a kid.

najib632:
Yes Allah is a being with an infinite amount of energy, the prophet Muhammad S.A.W. said Allah wears a hijab of light if Allah was to take that hijab of the 7 heavens and all that's within it will be destroyed, and also it's from this hijab the angels are created, it is also by far faster than light, when the prophet Musa A.S. asked Allah to reveal Himself to him, Allah told Musa A.S. that you cannot see but if that mountain over there can withstand my reflection then you will see me, so Allah reflected the most infinitely minute amount of his light on the mountain. Behold! The mountain was shattered to pieces and out of fear Musa A.S. fainted then Allah revived Musa A.S. and then he asked Allah for forgiveness and Allah bestowed his mercy on him. May Allah have mercy on Musa A.S. and also after Muhammad S.A.W. visited the heavens during his night journey his companions asked him if he saw Allah, he said how can I see Allah when there was light everywhere, and the prophet told us that he was afraid at first when he was in the presence of Allah, but tgen Allah created an angel with the voice of Abubakar when the prophet S.A.W. heard the voice of Abubakar R.A. he became calm and Allah asked him about what he had heard then he said it was the voice of his friend Abubakar, then Allah informed him of what He did in order to calm him. This method too was used on an earlier prophet, that was Musa A.S. again Allah used this method to calm him down when he invited him into the cave and Musa A.S. was afraid of the presence of Allah while he was in the cave then Allah asked him what was in his hand then he told Allah that it was his staff and he uses it on his flock and various useful things, this made Musa A.S. calm.

Fairy tales. This is just a work of bad fiction.

najib632:
What language did he speak?
I hope you're not trying to mock Allah, because if you do so I shall never quote you again. How can the one who taught speech not know how to speak? All the Qur'an, Torah and Injeel are what?

Of course I am not trying to mock Allah. I have mocked Allah countless times and I'm not trying. I will continue to. But that's not the answer to my question, is it? What language did Allah speak, I only want to know. Quran was written in Arabic, the Torah and Injeel written in Hebrew. And these languages were formed by men, these languages have origin. So what language did Allah speak and does he have mouth?

najib632:
What language did he speak that caused the explosion? Do not bite more than you can chew, you're just an ordinary human being that disbelieves in Allah... even a prophet would not ask this... It seems most of you atheists are arrogant people. How will knowing the language Allah spoke to cause the explosion improve the state of your faith? Most of you disbelievers call his signs strange phenomenons or unexplainable, and even call history myth, you act like the world started when science became advanced.

Yeah. What language? You said he spoke and the big bang happened. The big bang didn't happen because someone spoke. It's more than that. So, I want to know again the language Allah spoke that caused the big bang? There is nothing extraordinary about anyone before, even you who believes in Allah. You are also ordinary. If a prophet was stupid enough not to ask these questions I'm asking, it doesn't stop me from asking, except if you don't have answers s to my question.
I don't have faith, I'm faithless. What do you mean by improving the state of my faith? Which faith?
What are the signs of Allah, how come it's only those who believe in him that sees his signs? We have not seen any. Almost all the phenomena in the world have been explained, the ones that are yet to be explained are being investigated.

When science became advanced was the end of all religions with their claims. Without science, we can't even be exchanging posts on Nairaland. I hope you know that?

live4dgospel:
Free will is not what you can get from your secular dictionary alone. I think I've explained everything you need to know. I gave you a baby instance so you can understand the condition of Adam in the beginning. And I repeat babies have free will even from their mothers' wombs, I have restrained from quoting Scripture for you. You depend on your secular dictionary and logic to judge this case but you restrained me from using my Bible which is my power. How unjust could this be? However, I know that you have heard that God created man and angels with free will, in fact that was why Lucifer chose to stand against God because he had a free will. Now tell me since you have heard that God gave man free will, when does that free will start? Do you start to have the free will only when you are old enough? What age could you be to say that you are enough to have the Free Will? It's a known fact that human beings learn till they are old with grey hair and die. That's, there are things you do now and you think it's right but as grow up you will discover it is actually wrong and you will try to amend it. If freewill is based on knowledge of good and evil, then how old will one be to be able to receive the freewill from God? Can't you still see the darkness in your understanding?

Lol, I can't get freewill from the dictionary but I can get it from you? Lmao .

Do you even realize that freewill is an English word? You are so lost in your head bro. Why can't you just exercise logic for once?
Babies don't have freewill, they don't make decisions and choices. Just throw that away and think like a man.

So you want to use the bible to define and explain the English word freewill but you're ready to ignore the real book meant for understanding the word. Lol
Please keep refraining yourself from clogging here with bible verses.
I trust the dictionary more than your book of lies, the bible. It's a story book for kids and I don't want kids to come here and disturb my peace. If you can't defend your points with logic, have a nice day. Your logic is even weak. I am disappointed you said babies have freewill, I mean what kind of reasoning is that?

The bible is your power, well the dictionary is not my own power. We are both free to use it. So, there's no injustice here. Use logic, use your mind. You have the capacity. Except if you don't.

I have heard the fairy tales of God creating man and angels, but it goes beyond just hearing. Where's the proof? The reason we are here is to reveal that the story is a badly written fiction. Don't you get that?

Freewill in terms of religion is a stupid notion that cannot stand when you use your head to reason it out. Freewill starts when a human being can make decisions on their own without being coerced. It's not necessarily linked with age or anything. I have defined it for you up there. Read it again.

You're not even following the argument, because if you are you won't be asking me silly questions like when do people get freewill from God. Who is God? Is that a real entity or a made up one? Do you have proof that such entity exists? Nobody gets freewill from any God, there was no garden of Eden, there was no Adam and Eve, there was no Lucifer. Those are the lies of the garden of Eden. Or you didn't even read the topic of the thread?

Use your head!

If they had the freewill to reject the judgement of God and go for another option, then they must have weighed their options to see which is GOOD for them or which is BAD for them before making a decision. They can't just act like zombies because they have freewill, remember?
On the other hand, if they accepted something was good or bad from God because God told them so, what would stop them from accepting something as good or bad from Satan too if they can't process who is good or bad between God and Satan? Remember they can't process what's good or bad because they have not eaten from the tree of knowledge yet when Satan was talking to them.

Such are the lies of the garden of Eden. You're just using one lie to cover the other.

live4dgospel:
You are mixing up both free will and standard for judging good and evil, the two concepts are not in any intertwined they are as I said before absolutely different.
Let me analyse your confusion, this is an excerpt from your text:

"You need to make decisions among options using freewill, how do you choose what's good and throw away what's bad without the standard of doing so?"

Let give a scenario to illustrate your point of confusion, consider for instance a baby it has a free will it can choose to pick some sand on the ground or any other objects available to it and swallow them, right? Does it have a standard for judging whether sand is good for its health or not? Absolutely No. When it grows up, it will know by science and law of nature that sand is not beneficial to health. Think of Adam and Eve like a baby, they have free will but no standard for judging between good and evil. Before their fall they did things not because they had their standard but because they depended on that of God. Just the way babies depend on their mothers to feed with their milk. Are your ears still hard to hear? Adam had free will but they didn't have the ability to know whether what they did was good or evil, they just depended on the judgment of God, i.e they accepted that something was good or evil because God told them it was good or evil but they had the free will to reject the judgement of God. What then is confusing here?

On the contrary, you're the one who is confused and you lack understanding. I am glad you used the baby instance to show that you don't understand what freewill is. Let me start by defining what freewill is for you.

Freewill (adj): Done willingly rather than by compulsion.

Free will (noun): The power of independent action and choice, the ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion.

Autonomous (adj): self governing, able to choose, self sufficient.

How is this hard for you? How can you even say a baby has free will? Lmao

A baby does not choose. If you place a baby on the ground where there is sand, the baby will not DECIDE whether to pick sand and swallow or not. If there is something to pick, the baby will pick it. That's why parents are there to monitor babies. I am so disappointed with this your thought process. It is very wack. You have a wrong perception of what freewill is. Do babies make decisions at all? Lol


Freewill is actually exercised when you know the consequences of your actions. When you can weigh your options and decide based on them. Before you can weigh your options, you need to be able to know the difference between good and bad. Freewill is not independent of the knowledge of good and bad, it can never be. Because while exercising freewill you're considering yourself and how the decisions you're making will affect you.

If Adam had freewill but lack the ability to know whether he did good or bad, why did your God now punished him for what he didnt honestly know was bad?? Lol. Are you really thinking of this concept at all? Why would you rain curses on someone who didn't know he had done wrong? According to your baby instance, It's like saying an infant broke a glass of water or tumbler and you slapped the baby hard. Isn't that wickedness? Do you want to tell me that the baby could make a choice not to break the glass or tumbler?

It's simple, Adam could not have had freewill to eat or not from the tree of knowledge without knowing the difference between good and evil. Just like the baby couldn't have had freewill to break the glass or not without knowing which is good or bad.

Freewill is dependent on knowing what's good and what's bad.

I advise you to go and read more on freewill, you have a very lopsided understanding of it. No wonder you live for the gospel. Lol

najib632:
He caused the big bang and then everything formed from it. When Allah wants something he only says be... and it is...

You were not existing before, until Allah willed you will come to life through your father and mother.

So, Allah caused the big bang? How so...

Energy caused the big bang. Is Allah energy? You said he says, so Allah can talk, what language did he speak that caused explosion?

Does it make sense to you or you didn't bother to think about it before you posted it.

live4dgospel:
You're still mistaken. God created man with free will i.e man can choose to do what he wants to do by himself. Either to obey God or disobey Him. This is absolutely different from the concept of knowledge of good and evil.

The Knowledge of good and evil is as I said before a standard for judging what is good and evil. Think about it, are they not different? Free Will and standard for judging good and evil? Of course, they are different.

Man only created another standard for judging good and evil through the free will given to them by God. What then is confusing here? The only reason is that your heart has been darkened.

I will address the bolded above numerically to clear your confusion.

1. A man with freewill that can choose what to do among options must already have the knowledge of good and evil to be able to use his freewill to make decisions. It's not rocket science if you use logic instead of the faith you're using to think of it.

2. Freewill is different from knowledge of good and evil, I didn't say they were the same. But they are totally dependent on each other. You can't have freewill if you don't have the standard of choosing what's good and what's bad. You need to make decisions among options using freewill, how do you choose what's good and throw away what's bad without the standard of doing so?

3. Man created what? Why do you people like to describe the bible in ways that suit your narratives? According to the legend in the bible, God warned Adam and Eve to eat from all the trees in the garden except one. That if they do, they will die. There was no record of any good or evil know to Adam and Eve before hand except the instructions from God. Stop changing the bible please.

JMAN05:
Am not sure I understood your question. Are you asking how they will know that eating the fruit was rather good for them, as Satan said?

Or you didn't understand my point?

You listed your points numerically and I understood them perfectly. You said in point 1 that God told them what was good and what was bad. From God's standard of good and bad.


And in point 2 Satan came and told them another thing.

Now, as people who didn't know good or bad on their own standards, how were they supposed to decide correctly who was saying what's good and what's bad between God and Satan?

Were they supposed to adhere to God's instructions as zombies, even though they had freewill as claimed by you? Or were they supposed to use the freewill God gave them in the first place although they didn't know they were doing so? Because in making decisions to eat from the tree of knowledge, they might think they are doing themselves a favor even though they could not discern it due to lack of the knowledge of evil and good. They were only listening to two voices.

JMAN05:
1. I think your comment is like stating that when people get freewill, the default action will be to rebel. God has good reason to expect obedience from all his intelligent creatures because a perfect person has greater possibility to do good than to do bad. Many angels had been obedient to Gods authority for perhaps millions of years before Adam's creation. Yet they have freewill.

Then you have thought wrong. When people get freewill, they have equal propensity to obey as to disobey. Like equal chances, they can CHOOSE to obey or to disobey. You don't expect someone who has freewill to obey and you don't expect them to disobey, whatever they do is their own choice. There is zero compulsion, you cannot instruct them. When you give instruction to people you are not expecting them to use freewill. Instructions are statements of command.

Please don't make bold claims about angels obeying God for millions of years. It's not even logical. Have you seen angel before? Can you even sketch the picture of one. We are discussing reality and you're bringing fictional characters. Although God is also a fictional character, perhaps my discussion with you about God is giving you the freedom of introducing other fairies into the fray? I am only trying to show you that what you believe is fiction. My position is based on hypothesis - that is, If God exists.

JMAN05:
So His purpose for creating free moral agents was not so that He would be challenged. Far from that. His intention was to create persons who will use their freewill to worship Him and be under His authority. He doesn't want to create puppets or robots which He would remote from heaven. He wants to create humans in His image.

I don't know about you, but I love it that God gave each of us intelligence and allows us to individually chose to serve Him. The opposite might live us without variety in thought as we have today. We will be like robots.

What are you even talking about?
If Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree in the garden of Eden, what was God's plan? Did his plan included using freewill to worship him? NO!
Would Adam and Eve ever knew they were naked? NO!
Would Adam and Eve ever be chased out of the garden of Eden? NO!
What was the point of giving people freewill if you want them to be obedient? You haven't answered this question since antiquity.

If God gave humans freewill so that they can use it to worship him, he as well knew that not all people would worship him since they have freewill. Are you saying he knew what the freewill will cause and yet went ahead so he can derive pleasure in punishing the ones who don't worship him?

It's like giving your son money and telling him he can buy whatever he wants, but you want him to buy clothes. But since you already said he can buy whatever he wants, he bought a phone. Will you punish him for buying the phone? You're to blame for giving him the freedom to buy what he wants. You can't blame the son for buying the phone because you already said he can buy what he wants.

And that is exactly what we are saying here. The concept of a God is an illusion and the story of the garden of Eden is the onset of the lies. Think deeply about it.

JMAN05:
2. The opposite of free will would have been predetermination. There may have been many disadvantages to that that we can't now see. First, we wouldn't be in Gods image. We will be Gods puppet without option. God, no doubt won't derive joy of servitude since the individuals serving him are programmed to serve Him. Just like putting an app in your phone that always says "My master, I love you so much, I give my life to you intoto". What's the need if I did program it to do just that. I personally won't derive joy in that. But if my grown child says just that? It makes much difference.

Yes, He knows what's good for us, but it will make much sense to Him if we choose that which is good, thus His counsels.

1[i]. Does God want everyone to serve him, yes or no?[/i]
If yes, why didn't he make them zombies, puppets or robots so that he would achieve that aim?.
If no, then why punish those who don't since he doesn't even want everyone to worship him in the first place?

2. If God wants us to be in his own image, then he probably wants us to have freewill and do whatever we like, whatever feels good to us and not to him.

3. I tell you bro, according to what you believe, God derives more joy in seeing people punished. If not he wouldn't tell them they can do whatever they want by giving them freewill.

It's all mumbo jumbo, I just hope you will see it someday. I wish you can start thinking outside of faith. Logic is priceless yet free. Use it sometimes.

HellVictorinho:
Have you forgotten that their God has no regard for LOGIC ?
So He can act illogically at will.

Lmao

JMAN05:
I gave a reply that i think make sense on the other thread.

1. They knew what is good and what is bad from God's standpoint.

How? God had said a) 'Don't eat the fruit' - what is good.

b) 'If you eat the fruit, you will die' - What is bad.

Therefore they knew God's standard of what is good and what is bad.

2. Satan's point is: 'if you eat the fruit, you will become LIKE God.'

In other words, since they already know Gods own standard of good and bad. Satan is saying become like God by setting your own standard of what is good and what is bad. How?

3. Eating the fruit from Gods own standard was bad, but if they eat the fruit, they are stating that there own standard in these matter is: "eating the fruit is good", not bad. These is a challenge to Gods authority to set standard of what is good and what is bad.

For the sake of argument and counter arguments, let me agree with 1 and 2. Now the question is this, since they themselves didn't know what was good and what was bad, how would they decide on the good and the bad between 1 and 2? This is very straightforward and should not require an epistle to answer.

Now, on number 3, if God didn't want his authority to be disregarded, why did he make Adam and Eve free moral agents in the first place? Why did he give them freewill to make their own decisions, what's good for them? God was angry when he found out they had disregarded his authority, wasn't he?

Why give humans freewill to decide what's good for them when you assume you know what's good for them? Isn't that confusion? Was God confused?

OpenYourEyes1:
God has planned this all along to teach humans the importance of obedience and loyalty.
In the end he will reward & choose millions of humans who will be totally loyal to him.



Adam and Eve failed a very simple test

So God has planned everything that happened? That means he knew Adam and Eve would fail even before he created them? Why subject them to such horror and curse them? This God seems to be a malevolent God.

Why would he test them when he already knew the result? This is thoughtless.

HellVictorinho:
The story wasn't even meant to make sense.
Most Christians know that they can't make anything out of it but they won't discard it because their God(s) is/are unquestionably insane.
And,yes,Christians probably don't worship the same God.
We have the Trinitarian God,Jehovah, White Garment God,etc.

Lmao, let's not throw it at them wholly. Let's give it to them bit by bit.

JMAN05:
He created free moral agents. If your conception of a God is one who creates robots whose scripts are already written, that is not for our heavenly Father. He didn't purpose them for doom, but He is pained that humans have chosen a wrong course and are still inclined to do more harm. That is the reason for the regret. He is not regretting because He created a faulty humans. He did create perfect ones, who has a greater possibility for good. But since they are free moral agents, they chose bad.

Of course if God had wanted to predestine them, these won't happen, problems won't come up, but that would be funny because they would only be acting out a role. It won't be their choice. In fact, that was never Gods goal, to create people ruled by fate. Nope.

We are made in His image. He isn't ruled by fate.



God would have to predestine things if he wanted to peer through the future of uncreated humans.

It is true we can't measure up to His higher qualities. But we are still made in His image. Such analogy is thus fitting.

Secondly, God himself uses humans as a picture of who He is, His love, care and etc. Eg Ezek 34:12




Lol. It appears you do have a wrong view of perfection. When I grew up in the churches, I did have such distorted view too. Perfection is perfection. In other words, such person can never make a mistake. Well, the scriptures leaves us with a different definition of perfection.

The bible does not portray a perfect person as one who cannot sin. Such person is perfect in that he doesn't have a sin by creation. No bad inclination. But he is still a free moral agent, who might in his personal choices want to try a route contrary to that of God. That would become sin, and its wages is death. Any who said that a perfect person cannot sin will have to contend with the scripture since its record shows the opposite. Adam was perfect, but he sinned. Satan was perfect, but he sinned. They are all free moral agents. God didn't predestine them. This may be new to you. It was formerly new to me too.

Secondly, Adam knew Gods own standard of what was bad and what was good. God had told them, be caretaker and dominate all I have created, fill the earth with your offsprings, do not eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Doing this, is what is good, and not doing it, is what is bad. They knew.

Thirdly, not peering to the future isn't a mistake. He was creating perfect free moral agents. Why peer, when he simply can create predestined humans? If you want to create people who will choose whatever they want to do with there life, then you go ahead and create them. And these creation have more possibility to do good than for bad. So why would He worry Himself. Another point is, He had made angels in heaven to be perfect too, and these angels have lived in heaven under Gods rulership for perhaps millions of years. So why be paranoid when creating humans?

Again, will he kill Adam after creating him if he knows he won't choose to obey him and recreate another? Or peer through before creating? That would be predestination since the plan is still in His head.

The thing is, perfect humans with there ability to chose is what God wanted to create, and which He did.




Visit wikipedia on omniscience.



Like I did say before, individuals can have a concept of God that appeals to them. You seem to have a different view of what a god should be. That's OK.

What I have learned is, even if God chose to be total omniscient, it won't stop some from attacking Him. Most likely, that won't make you change from disbelief in a God. Or hate Him. In fact, you will RIGHTLY do so, since he had made you so that you will become an atheist. Since you will be acting out a script.

That does not define my God. And I love Him for that. At least, someone who commits immorality won't say God predestined him that way. Nope, he would be responsible for his own fate. That's sweet if you ask me!

We don't need to stress this further by typing epistles. If God created free moral agents as you have claimed, why then would he want free moral agents to behave in a particular way? Does that make sense to you?

eneojoedu:
they were told, so they know.

They were told what's bad and what's good, yet they didn't have the knowledge of what's bad and what's good? Lmao. It still doesn't make sense.

eneojoedu:
its Been a while I went through my Bible but if I can remember it said after eve ate and gave to Adam, their eyes became open, and they knew they were naked. before that there was an instruction given to them by God(they had options).. if anything, what you should ask maybe is why was the � planted there and not somewhere far away, or why was it even planted at all... or why was it not uprooted. but that's none of my business though.

They had options to do what? To do what's good (obey) or what's bad (disobey)? They didn't even know what's good or bad yet, how could they have options? They didn't even know what death was. They were only told.

live4dgospel:
I don't know whether you really want to find out the truth or want to further strengthen your atheist views. However the case, I will help you if you are willing to listen.
What the Scripture means by knowledge of good and evil is absolutely different from what you think. A knowledge of good and evil actually means a standard for judging what is good and evil Before the fall of man in the garden of Eden, Adam and Evil had only depended on the judgement of God on good and evil i.e they accepted what God declared as good as good and what God declared as evil as evil. That was the only standard of good and evil at that time. After man disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit, man created another standard for judging good and evil different from God's. Hence, Cane killed Abel, he actually thought it was a good thing to offer God the fruit of his labour (i.e his human effort) whereas God needs our offering of faith. And again the People commanded to multiply and fill the earth decided to build the tower of Babel to be united( they jugded they could be united and do exploits if they remain in the same place), this is a judgement that's absolutely different from God's. Hence, God later declared in a scripture which I don't want to quote the verse, that His thoughts and ways are different from ours in an immeasurable dimension. Today what God says is bad, man will say it is good and vice versa. For that reason God has given us His Law and Word so we can understand what is actually good and evil.

It seems you have translated the story of Adam and Eve in a way to suit and promote your narrative. Well, let's analyze this issue in your narrative. The loop hole is still glaring for all to see. My atheistic views already stand on a firm ground, they don't need strengthening, this thread was created for theists like you to reason logically. And thanks for not clogging here with bible verses.

Now, if the knowledge of good and evil they were warned about was knowing the standard of judging good and evil, it means they actually didn't know how to decide what's good and what's bad prior to eating from the tree. Then, how can they make choices?

If they were conditioned to follow God's standard of good and evil, they cannot make choices and they cannot have freewill.

A perfect God cannot give freewill to people he wants to follow his instructions, because he would know perfectly what freewill is. Perhaps this God is not even perfect to begin with. All of it just doesn't add up.

Did God tell Adam and Eve what was good and what was bad? I don't see that written anywhere in the bible. Or what do you mean by God declared what's good and declared what's bad?

To obey instructions fully, they wouldn't be able to make decisions to disobey. God knew, didn't he? To decide to disobey, they needed to know the difference between what's good (obey) and what's bad (disobey). And you just said they could not judge that. How come they now disobeyed? Did they do what they couldn't do? The lies are too glaring.

On the story of Cain, he was jealous that was why he killed his brother.

HellVictorinho:
The "garden of eden" is a movie that has a terrible scriptwriter/producer.

Lol, no doubts!

Only children would believe that story. And I mean adults who still believe it too are still kids when it comes to reasoning. It is very glaring that it is a poorly written fiction. So many contradictions.

Adam and Eve couldn't have done evil or bad (disobeying God) before even having the knowledge of good and evil. If they did, then they did innocently without knowing and shouldn't have been punished or cursed. Except if God, the imaginary being is malevolent. I'm open to that acceptance from theists.

obinna58:
God doesn't want them to eat the fruit but knows they'll eat anyway then acted like it was surprise to him.

God allowed Satan into the garden, planted same tree inside the garden and probably was asleep when the whole convincing happened, in fact even Adam went to work

The all merciful God have to punish them, the whole world for what he made them to do and blamed it on them.

Fear God

Ancient story

Lol

PhenomenalMorgan:
There is a diff btw knowledge and Intuition
They(by their Godly nature) were created to intuitively do good but they had no knowledge of Good or evil!!!

Lol, how does this answer the questions?

You have assumed they had the intuition to do good,
Did they also have the intuition not to do evil?

How then could they ever do bad? Besides, they didn't even have the intuition at all. Intuition is instinctive knowledge, I hope you know that. And there's nowhere it was written that they intuitively know to do good. They were to obey instructions, obeying instructions is not good nor bad for people who don't know good and evil. Neither is disobedience.

How did God expect them not to disobey or sin before knowing good and evil?

eneojoedu:
what are you saying in essence??

I am asking if Adam and Eve could commit sin even though they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil, they didn't know right from wrong.

For you to commit a sin, you must be aware or be able to think if what you're doing is good or bad.

Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.


Before Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't know anything called evil, we can as well say they didn't know good too. They were just zombies.

The instruction given to them by God was that, if they eat from the tree, they will acquire the knowledge of good and evil, in other words, they will know what is bad and also know what is good and that they will die. They didn't even know that death is bad neither did they know that disobedience is bad, since they had not eaten from the tree.

Now, how were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?
If you bring up the excuse that Satan deceived them, then how were they supposed to know that Satan was deceiving them, were they warned to beware of Satan?

If you have freewill, you must have knowledge of good and evil before you can process deceit, do good or do evil. You cannot commit sin if you don't have the knowledge of good and evil. So where did the concept of the original sin come from? Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil? It does not add up.

Theists, think deeply for once in your lives.

tintingz:
Lol, bro.. they haven't demonstrated how atheism is foolishness, in fact we can see from the argument theism is the foolishness and most foolishness.

They are hypocrites, they want to argue with logic and when it comes to their God they suddenly suspend logic and delve into fantasies.

The argument is still on tho. Let's wait for more response.

They run away from logic when it comes to their imaginary friend. That character can never work with with logic. We are living in the real world and we all know how it is. There is no space for fantasy in this world.

How can logic be from the quran? That guy does not even know what he wrote up there, does he?

If people call on God in the time of trouble and they somehow get out of their troubles, they'll say God helped them. However if they call the same God and they didn't get out of the problems, then it's the fault of the people. Lmao

Well, I could as well call my spoon in the time of trouble and get out of the trouble. We that don't believe in God get into problems too and we get out. Who are we to attribute the help to?

Theists are too daft for my liking.