₦airaland Forum

theoriginalgood:
Is it secretly a joke when someone asks whether there’s God? For a random example, which human eyes even know what planet pluto looks like? Is humanity the force behind creation? You know that the wages of sin is death and ALL humans die someday. Evidence that humans are evil sinners. Only God is good, that’s why there’s all this confusion.

https://www.nairaland.com/5057182/reasonable-evidence-gods-existence

Principle of presupposition, what is creation? Calling everything creation is the beginning of your baloneys. What makes everything that exist creations?

TV01:
No I did not. I merely quoted what the Bible - which you continually disparage - says about you.


This is both tired and lame. Your OP was clear - if somewhat clumsily written

It is absolutely the point. The scriptures where written thousands of years ago by a sophisticated and highly intelligent people, who were also deeply spiritual and walked with God. You erected a strawman claiming such adherents were illiterate cavemen. I hope you are suitably humbled - which is the whole point - by the fact that you are yourself at the end of a long line of still semi-literate cavemen.

This I did in my OP. Which was clear to any whose eyes are not blinded by pride, prejudice and a vaulting opinion of his own knowledge & prowess

As above.

As above

As I noted, this is besides the point. Humans are able to conceptualise or interprete concepts and, are able to discover concepts independent of them having previously existed or not.


Yours is a crying shame.


Have a reflective weekend
TV

^{Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:}

Lol, go and sleep sheeple, since you don't have any objective evidence for that which you claim.

GoodMuyis:
What proof are you still waiting for? How many time will one have to re-iterate that the creation of the heaven and the Earth is L1 proof that God exists. Other Level of proof have been debated upon so it will be unwise to start afresh.

You shift the goal post from DOES NOT cum CANNOT. Well made you think or assume so is the question

Sometimes, argument is not meant to be won but to pass your information, but is seems like a mockery if your aim of creating discussion is not tangible

Edit: I see that you Accord yourself a glory of deep thinking, FYI there are millions of folks who think and reason more than you do and are theist. Isaac Newton is more a Theologian than a Scientist. And I can tell you that deep thinking ma me realize how easy it was for God to say $earth = new planet(); and the Earth was created, am sure you understand that.

Lwkmd, what exactly do you mean by the creation of heaven and the earth? Wo told you it was created? How did you get to that conclusion?

But to give you a second chance, are you saying the earth is a proof for superman's existence? What is heaven, any proof of that?

Can't you see that you are just raising dust instead of providing evidence? You are just filling gaps bro, you're not providing evidence.

As far as I am concerned, I created the heavens and the earth, and that should be enough evidence that I did. Don't tell me you don't believe it.

TV01:
How is it ad-hominem? You described people who believe in God as cavemen and illiterates. I asked if your own people - whoever they are - have a written script of their own, and when storey building commenced amongst them. To highlight that 1. Through time, people who believed God have been anything but illiterate and cavemen and 2. that you are in no way positioned to refer to them in a derogatory sense. Unless of course you can show me the script your people invented ? It's not laugh that should be killing you, it's shame .

And to think you just called someone a fool, while the glass of irony shatters on your empty skull

Again let me remind you that holding an idea is different from writing down an idea. I won't have to keep repeating it to a supposed wise one like you, would I? Lol.

Whether my people or family have written anything is out of the argument, it's not even what we are talking about. Stay on point and stop threading the path of mentioning my family or my people. I know you might be tempted judging by your level of IQ to hug ad hominem and straw man, but stay focused. We are interested in those who started the concept of God , they were cavemen.

TV01:
And God has presented clear evidence to His existence - as I clearly noted in my initial offer of assistance . That you reject it on the basis of your own "intellectual prowess" and desire to believe "alternatives" is your choice. No problem for God and no problem for me .

What is the evidence that God has presented? List them please

TV01:
No one asked you to believe without evidence. I pointed some out to you and invited you to investigate.

You have not pointed any evidence.
Enumerate or list them and also show how they are evidence for God?

TV01:
That we know little does not mean that we don't know enough to arrive at the right conclusion from the evidence presented. And consequently take the next logical step.

What little do we know that is just enough?

TV01:
Even if so?

It means it's all human concepts.

TV01:
Old enough to have camped at your current position for years. To have demonstrated umpteen times more hubris, and mercifully, been shown the error of my ways.

It's good you are here. If you truly knew there was no God, you wouldn't waste your limited time arguing about him. CogDiss or what .

Lol, your ignorance is fun to behold.

You're just as old to still hung up to childhood stories. That's a real shame.

[s]The choice his yours. I pray mercy speeds it on and leads you aright.


^{Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:}[/s][/quote]

MuttleyLaff:
I know what I bring to the table, so trust me when/if I say, I am not afraid to eat alone
Now, if you know, you know how God who walked the earth for 33 years came on earth. If not then, who no know, somebody like you, no go know these things

I can understand people being aversed of the dark, but the pitiful tragedy is about those like you, who are aversed of the light

How hard could it be to tell me how the god who walked the earth came to the earth? Could it be that you are deliberately stalling because you don't know how to put down your next lies? All the things your blabbing about have nothing to do with my questions.

Was it a grand opening with chariots of fire or what?

TV01:
Not in plainly seeing the evidence for God, acknowledging my own frailty - and on the basis of that seeking Him.


By it is held and written by those who are not illiterate or "cavemen" to this very day. Your people, your tribe if you will, do they have a script of their own? One for recording their own language? When was the first "storey" building in your village . Yet here you are at once condemning some as illiterate and "cavemen", when those words are in fact emblematic of your whole lineage

Lwkmd, ad hominem again. It's always this and not evidence. This has nothing to do with the evidence we ask. Prove that your favourite imaginary sky daddy is real. Simple enough!

TV01:
Maybe it's not about thinking deeply, rather thinking honestly. Not prating in our knowledge, but realising how little we truly know. But at once thinking and knowing enough to appreciate the evidence as presented.

God does not need me to defend Him, any more than your pathetic attempts to make demands of Him merit His attention.

Having said that. I have pointed you to the evidence. The choice as to whether to critically examine it, or, fall back on to fables that allow you to sneer at those whose intellectual - let alone spiritual - spit would have drowned you without trace, is yours.

Honestly thinking, I have told you that there is no God. There can't be one. Your acceptance that he isn't bothered about my quest is enough proof, your inability to give objective evidence is enough proof that there is no God. If we truly know little then it's no ones fault that we don't believe. If we truly know little then it's the responsibility of the God to let us know more. But because he is imainary and not real, he can't do anything about it. Why are you so daft?

Because we know little, therefore we must believe without evidence? Knowing little is a prompt to know more by investigting, not believing.

You have a condition called cognitive dissonance. You just said we know little, now you're saying you have shown me the evidence for the existence of God. Do you have a wrong understanding of what an evidence means?

TV01:
^{Psalm 14 - The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.}

Only a fool believes in magical beings without proofs or evidence to substantiate their claims. Only a fool believes that there is a spiritual kingdom where a spiritual daddy is sitted on the throne

Throne, kingdom, and army, all these things are human inventions.

Come, how old are you?

UyiIredia:
Since you are tackling the Christian understanding of God I strongly disagree with I cannot complain. But then God isn't material same for the mind which is one evidence for God existing.

How can a non material being which by the way has no proof of existence bring forth material things? Do you have any hypothetical and plausible mechanism? Even if you don't, at least show a proof for the existence of this being.

You cannot make a comparison wth the mind. Firstly, the mind is not a spiritual concept. Secondly, the mind is not a being. Thirdly, the mind does not have an army of angels, a kingdom and a rival. You have simple introduced a straw man and it is not welcomed. There is no correlation between the mind and God that warrants comparison of any sort.

The mind is an abstract term for the connection of thoughts.

Are you saying God cannot be proved to exist?

MuttleyLaff:
#IfYouKnowYouKnow things.
If you know, you know. Who no know, no go know.

Shut up on this if you know you know. Only that you don't know zilch about what you talk about.

How did God who walked the earth for 33 years came on earth, did he just appeared or he came with a chariot of fire?

MuttleyLaff:
You are either wet behind the ears or just plain oblivious that God walked on earth for 33 years and was beheld by many people on earth

Now, I am quite sure you are familiar with the phrase:
"When did we do all these things, but He replied that, as much as you did it for any one of these, you've done it to Me"

Wow, God walked on earth for 33 years? That can't be true, tell me something bro. How did he come down from heaven? Did he fly or he came down on of the numerous chariots of fire in heaven?

But again, why 33 years? What happened, did he got tired of the world?

OpenYourEyes1:
What kind of evidence do you need? Do you want to see the pictures of GOD too?

It will be a good place to start.

GoodMuyis:
there can't be God?
According to which Scientific research or study that came out to glaring fact or evidence. Pls don't bring cosmologic nonsense which is more or less a theory without proof

According to which scientific research or study that came out to glaring fact or evidence was there God? You people will not cease to amuse me. I swear.

Did you just ask for proof? Lmao, the burden of proof still dangles on your neck. Show a proof for the existence of God that you claim, else, your inability to show a proof all these years is a solid proof that there can't be God. Now, suck it up.

MuttleyLaff:
Check mark , I said

Check mark, I said too.

Check mark, yes, God can, on both counts and already has on those two counts too.

#IfYouKnowYouKnow thing. If you know, you know. Who no know, no go know

Lol, on what occasions or counts has God made humans see him? And how did you know? Did you see him and what does it look like?

finalboss:
you know, i think you should read his signature. Before replying

Lol, I really should have.

TV01:
...l did not direct you to the bible did l? Can illiterate "cavemen" write? Have you per chance considered your own ignorance?

I stand corrected, perhaps humility should be your starting point .


Best
TV

And in all this you cannot really sense that you are the ignorant and blind one here?

I said the idea was held by illiterate cavemen, not written by illiterate cavemen. Sometimes, in fact, all the time, you don't disappoint in showing how much ignorance is in you, just like peak milk. It's in you

Ideas can be held, passed or taught to others who will write them down. Of course, I had to tell you that. I have realized that most of you theists believe in this sky daddy because you don't think deeply.

You now want to lie for God and introduce a straw man? Give solid proof and evidence for the God you worship or suck it up.

TV01:
...it's there...in a huge and glaring cosmological sense

Psalm 19 - The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

...it's there...in the beautiful design and intricate complexity of the tiniest living cell

Psalm 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

...it's there...if you truly seek Him, seek truth, and not in your pride seek be led by, or a leader of these;

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of[b] men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,[/b]

...it's there if...you don't fall for this;

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:


Praying that the scales of everything out of nothing, men from monkey like creatures and, a spherical, moving earth, drop from your eyes, would be a good start. Then throw some humility into the mix and...

...the choice is yours.


All the best

TV

First of all, the bible is not valid evidence. So all these baloneys don't count. Show tangible and objective evidence. The heavens and the firmaments are not the handywork of any spirit. That idea was held by illiterate cavemen who never investigated anything but reached a conclusion from ignorance. This is a new age. Wake up

Holumhidey:
the same thing.
you're saying there can't be a God.
i am saying; is it a statement or a question cos if it's a statement, then i'm asking u what the world originated from......
but,
if it's a question then you must be really dumb.
footnote

Lol, I guess I'll leave you to keep asking what I overtly wrote. A sensible person will not ask me if it is a statement or a question. The way the syntax are written, even a teenager will know what it is. But what do I know, isn't it obvious that we actually are not mates?

It seems you have difficulties deciphering English. Lol

Holumhidey:
smh
if you were that sensible, you would tell me the origintion of life then, if not God

This again confirms that we are not mates. Lol

Didn't you read where I said I have gone from there is no God to there can't be God? I advise you to gently wait for your lower class mates, son. Don't mention me again.

Holumhidey:
i cant argue with you, you arent my mate.....
let lucifer66 come, then we'll argue........

That's a very stupid comment. It shows that we are not really mates indeed the other way round. Enjoy while you wait for your lower class mates

MuttleyLaff:
My dear friend, God is a spirit. You can't see God with physical and ordinary human being eyes. An evidence of the image of God you can see with ordinary and physical human eyes, is you, just as much as every other human being is too. So I present dalaman, an epitome specimen evidence of an image of the Godhead, to behold

God is a spirit, your claim. You can't see God with physical and ordinary human being eyes, your claim. You also claim that we have spirits. Can God with his power make us see him with our physical eyes? Can God do that?

I'll make this short as possible as I can. It's still the same old story. Where is the evidence for the existence of any god or God?

Theists and largely those who believe in gods or Gods are fond of using a popular philosophical statement which goes thus, 'absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence'. While this statement is true, it is a statement that makes one appear stupid. This is because, the statement only considers the argument of the apologists. As atheists, we accept that the statement holds true, but it doesn't just hold true, it puts the burden of proof on the person making the claim that evidence is asked for. And this is because the statement is just one side of a coin, the other side of the coin is a statement that negates the first, and it goes thus, 'the absence of evidence is the evidence for the probability of absence'.

So, while the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, the absence of evidence is also not the evidence of presence, for evidence to be absent, it is an evidence for the probability of absence.

If a God exists, and it created this material world, and it touches people by anointing them, it speaks to people, it cannot be absent, it cannot even be a spirit. I have soon gone from there is no God to there cannot be a God. It is impossible for there to be a God, and when God goes out the window, so does its whole army of angels, Jinns and its rival, Satan.

If you have evidence or proof for the existence of any God whatsoever, please come forward. Thanks

daveP:
im amazed that you sit from the comfort of your room and call those that use all means within legal standards of proof, evidences and facts, a fool.


I respect all 5 of these guys cos all of them did it within the walls of notable universities around the world.


Those are the men you sit calling fools?
Those are the men you felt were dumb, especially as we know the reason for the task was to discredit the authenticity and substantiability of The Holy Bible?

One may be a mistake, two may be a coincidence, but 3, 4, 5........ And you call all of them a fool?


Later on you will presents scientific facts to we believers of Jesus and want to use it to challenge us and all that, but the same standard of facts you suddenly find as flawed and biased when its presented to you guys? That's very funny.



Now, i would like to ask you one question


why is it that debates btw believers and atheist dont exist in forums, large scale on live tv, or in universities, esp as the challenger is the atheist? why?


See, its because mist of yall dont argue with bavked up facts.


To disprove a fact, you need a much more astounding fact to override the fact and use it to convince those that believe the challenged fact.


Whereas, vs Christians have debated the identity of the gospels, the bible and all therein with all those that came forward. These debates ended without hate or disrespect. But atheist have not had a stand on such grand stage. Are they scared?


The question is begging. And the reason is most of yall cannot prove what you stand by.

its like the opposite side of Faith on the part of believers, but believers can prove faith...

hmmmm



and lastly. What shoyld now be used to convert, if the bible own qualifies the person as a fool?

With all the baloneys you typed here, I have just one question for you. Did you imply that the bible contains facts and evidence?

MuttleyLaff:
I dont need to or have to see, the assurance given, does me just too fine

I dont use another person's time clock for my work, neither do I poke nose into other people's business to know what's been done for me and not for anyone else

Yes you can and are expected to touch Christ

Wait, are you the user I quoted? So you people have started using double accounts to make it look as though you are in numbers. Lol


All I see here are subjectivity and not objectivity. If that's what you want to base it on, then your God is fictional. I believe you of all people have heard that constantly.

And lemme just burst your bubbles, you cannot touch christ, the highest evil done to oneself is to deceive oneself.

bloodofthelamb:
First of all, I do not believe in God because another person believes in Him. I have past that stage long time ago by his grace.

Lies!!!!

bloodofthelamb:
like apostle Paul, I Know who I believe.

Who? To be a who, means it's a person. Because the word who introduces a relative clause.

bloodofthelamb:
He is always with me and will never forsake me.

Always with you, how? Have you ever seen this 'who' who is always with you? And what has he done for you that he has not done for anyone else?

bloodofthelamb:
I boldly and confidently say, "Christ whom I believe in is more real to me than the earth itself." Hallelujah!!

You can touch the earth, can you touch christ? Don't lose touch with reality please.

daveP:
Lol.Sometimes i do wonder...why is it that 5/5 of atheist that sat down with the Holy Bible, trying to disprove all therein, always end up getting converted?

And other atheist end up jumping this real life fact with more baseless talk. lol

Most of yall ranting cant even sit down and try disprove the scientific way, talk less of the basic way.

Anyone who gets converted by reading the bible is a fool. Lol, how can such a fictional book convert a human being. When even for you to convert anyone, you as a Christian must speak for God and the bible.

LordReed:
First off, any person who continues to conflate evolution and cosmology with atheism despite repeated correction has earned the title of dumbass. Even if the god of atheism comes and says "atheism says the universe came from nothing" I will tell it off.

That leads to the second, atheism has no "voice of god" who is a man like me, no bishops or pastors and no messiahs who come to declare the immutable word of atheism. Anyone who is wrong no matter who he is, is wrong. Dawkins was wrong in saying the universe came from nothing. If one wants to be kind one could say he was talking metaphorically, in any other context he is wrong.

And here lies again another glaring difference between those who use their grey matter and those who secede thinking to archaic books steeped in myths and fairytales.

What do you understand by the word nothing when it is used to explain the emergence of the universe?

TheGreenLand:
STARBOY, carry us dey go o.
U r taking over in 2023. igsds

Sense is not that expensive though. Any rebuttal from you will be ignored.

Empiree:
I am sure this is gonna be eternal arguments because you to will not agree with anything he says regardless of what he says. So anyone who doesn't see to truth in anything or in others need to check himself.

Both of you have problems

So what he said, that 'God made his plans at infinity' makes a lot of sense to you and it's the truth?

And you just said we have problems? You need to be checked

budaatum:
You have added a rogue, "only", to suit your own narrative, and you claim "If the tree wasn't there, they were surely not going to die". Where do you get that from? How do you know that if they had not eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge and evil that they might have done something else at a later date that have pissed God off, or God just got bored of them eventually so God killed them?

Anyway,

1, They died.

2, They died and had been dying, even before they knew they died, and eventually became knowledgeable about the death they were dying.

3, Because, death is inevitable.

Your explanation is still suiting my narrative. There's no where you take it to that won't suit what my narrative is. And my narrative is that the whole story was a cooked up story that was poorly written.

If they could do something else that would lead to their death, how does this God of creation becomes perfect in the story? Beside the fact that you bringing up that they could have died by doing something else is a fallacy and straw man, what was written was that they ate from a tree and death came because they did so. Death came does not mean they died instantly, but the disobedience opened them up for death.
So what's your point again?

MuttleyLaff:
Unfortunately you only managed to muck up the water with those inconsequent reasons you advanced because sin entered the world through one man's disobedience, and death actually came to man, through and/or because of this disobedience sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all, by de facto, sinned

You should be responding to Budatuum and not me.

Budatuum said, death comes to anything that has life, disobedience or not.

budaatum:
How can I shoot myself in the foot when I can see my foot, thread carefully on the path, and don't know how to shoot nor have a gun?!

Adam and Eve were not specifically told that they will die only if they eat from the tree! "Surely, and certainly" die, are the sort of words used, a specific threat not to be read as "I, God, will kill you instantly!" Adam and Eve must have understood what was meant or they would have asked God what God meant at the time.

You already shot yourself in the foot Buda.

Surely and certainly were the words used by God, so God specifically used those English words? Even with those English words, we can still say it means only. According to the fairy, they were not told about death until when instructed not to eat from a tree planted by the protagonist. If the tree wasn't there, they were surely not going to die. Any additional explanation is your own contribution to suit the narrative, which at this point is unnecessary. They would surely die, when they become knowledgeable, but you said ignorance leads to death. That's where you shot yourself in the foot. You honestly did a cognitive dissonance. You should stick with one path, I cannot be going round circles with you. You also said death is inevitable, so it means whether you're ignorant or not you'll die.

Choose one reason why they died.

1. Because they were ignorant.
2. Because they became knowledgeable.
3. Because death was inevitable.


Assuming the story was true.

tintingz:
The universe is also said to be infinite with no outside.

The thing is we don't even know if the universe is infinite or finite, there's no evidence of any entity existing outside the universe.

Lol, God already know Ibrahim choice yet he test him to know if he will do it or not? Are you not confusing and contradicting yourself?

Allah knowing Ibrahim choices beforehand had been destined, his fate is already known. No matter his choices Allah has already know, testing him is meaningless.

You test someone to study them.

I've read the Quran and the stories in it, it's available everywhere.

They are ancient myths and fairytales.

I can mention a myth just like Nuh story, I can mention several myths just like Adam clay creation story.

I was talking about Muhammad, is there anything hidden about him?

Save that your ridiculous belief for another day.

No he's not perfect, for example Allah test people, that's a characteristics of an imperfect entity.

No, I've only seen people with mental illness. Magic is trick, ritual is doing unreasonable things that yield to nothing.

Allah is a Santa for adult Muslims.

Santa is a belief system, I believe in Santa, don't be fallacious by saying everybody knows Santa doesn't exist, if he's known today he revealed himself today it doesn't negate his existence just like Allah revealed himself to Muhammad in a desert cave in an era.

I've seen Santa, you can't tell me I've not, it's my personal experience. Do you believe me? You disbelieve in Santa just like how the Jews and Christians disbelieve in your Allah.

This is nonsensical. You believe in all this nonsense conspiracy theories.

What question? You admit you don't know and i replied good, what am I dodging?

A thought has a beginning, are you saying there's a beginning for Allah?

Thought has measurement, your God is limited to that thought.

My goodness. Big Bang is not an hoax, it's a theory, there are some evidences that supports the theory.

The timeline between the big bang and today is over billion of years, how do you expect humans to just know what happened in the early stage of the universe?

You're dwelling in assumptions and being delusional.

- The universe can be infinite.
- There's no evidence there's outside of universe
- There's no evidence of any entity outside the universe
- Time can be infinite because we don't know when time actually started, we just assume our time according to our observations.


How did you know there is outside of the universe?

If we can measure Allah's time with infinite is that not time? You are simply establishing time as infinite which he's still subjected to, it does not make him beyond time.

Infinite is not beyond time, you're just stretching time to infinite.

If Allah can be in a dimension moving, planning and thinking then he's in a dimension where there's time and space.

Now if Allah before creation can be in a state alone not doing anything(like in a frozen state) for infinite period of time and suddenly he started moving, thinking, planning, then we should ask what moved or wake Allah?

He created time from prior time.

There must be time where Allah is either our time or a higher time, so who created that higher time?

LMAO!! Best joke today.

How can a plan and choice be infinite? Can you plan without a beginning?

You're killing this guy. Small small abeg

Lwkmd, the dude said Allah did his plans and choices at infinity. That's the stupidest thing I've heard this year