₦airaland Forum

ApostleT:
What's the source for this claims?
C

The doctrines of both groups. Remember i was of the Pentecostals variant for over two decades.

ApostleT:
As an evangelical Christian I am not familiar with the protestant part of your claims.
C

Which part precisely?
* original sin?
* rejection of infant baptism?
* infant going to hell, because they are guilty of original sin?

ApostleT:
. The idea that man will stop sinning at any point is not an evangelical doctrine. Does it mean he will never commit a sin? NO. C

Your Bible says otherwise;


1 John 3:9 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: AND HE CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God.

please note the capital letter phrase.

ApostleT:
There are times he will commit sin but each time he/she will be remorseful and more importantly repent. The Christian no longer rejoice in sin. His mind is now changed to the point that he wants to only please God....TBC

Of what use then?, If you still commit sin after all the rituals and claims of some uprooting/death/ of the adamic nature via regeneration (new creation).

Every normal human knows when he offends another person, he should feel bad about it (especially when his attention has been drawn to it), apologize and strive not to repeat such offense.

How is this normal behavioral pattern, different from the unnecessary and burdensome claims of Christian religion?

Of what use or benefit is this duplication of behavior?

soulpeppersoup:
The bible

OK, and i want to assume you are mainstream Christian (as against some very obscure deviant groups who still use the bible as their reference book).

* Now, how then did human beings transgressed god (Yahweh in this instance)?

soulpeppersoup:
Theology is a product of the letters of the scriptures. Understanding unveils the spirit behind the letters.

The theology of original sin came from the text that Adam begot sons and daughter after his image but they stop at that without seeking for spiritual understanding.

When you answer my first question - what is your reference?

I shall respond to you.

hopefulLandlord:
2 possibilities here

1. Sciencewatch has gotten hold of Kingebukasblog phone and he used his monicker to post this rant

2. The spirit of Sciencewatch has descended on Kingebukasblog like the day of pentecost


its just filled with so much gibber with nothing to back it up that its better mocked and poo pooed which are the only sensible things its for

"Let me explain : Our emotions have a mind of their own . In fact , man had two minds : the rational and the emotional mind . The rational mind is of the neocortex , or the thinking brain - this brain helps us make sense of whatever we experience . The emotional brain which is a repository of our emotional reactions can function independent of the neocortex or rational mind . We can hold emotional memories without any sort of active cognitive participation or involvement . We can also hold opinions about lots of things without any conscious awareness ".

One major idiotic behavior that Christian religion confers on the adherents, especially those that have progressed to " consciously acquired religious idiocy - CARI", like the author of the above quote, is the believe that being a Christian, they know everything, and that every other knowledge (including specialized knowledge) can be understood by the "anointing/holey gut.

How the ignorance induced stuff below,

" The emotional brain which is a repository of our emotional reactions can function independent of the neocortex or rational mind"

is possible, can only come from christard.

CatfishBilly:
When I posted a thread here about how prayers failed my patients and it was pushed to FP, a colleague who recognised my NL moniker posted the thread on a WhatsApp group of my colleagues of which I am a member and called me out as an atheist. I really feared the worst because, I wasn't yet ready to declare my beliefs (I've only come out to one person and she totally understood me), surprisingly, nothing happened. That piece of information was ignored and people continued talking about whatever it was that they were talking about. Maybe, Nigerians are really open minded, you never know.

Your observation is correct. I have on my Facebook friend list, the who is who in the organization that i work with. In fact my CEO, once screamed blasphemy in response to one of my posts.

But not ONCE has my being atheist come up for discussion when i meet these folks physically.

I followed up on official matters to the highest level in the organization, not once has my correspondence been treated out of the formal route of processing.

My conclusion is that most of these professing religious folks are mere NOMINAL folks, who are mostly comfortable with being religious in the public, but indifferent/atheistic/agnostic/skeptic etc in their private lives.

And once you an atheist, can INTELLIGENTLY dismantle/demystify religious beliefs and god idea, these folks are no threat. They just get used to you, ignore you, promise to pray for you etc.

soulpeppersoup:
Study those verses again you will see that it never said sin entered into man but into the world.

By reason of sin entering into the world all were made sinners or have sinned but are not sinners for no one is born a sinner.

There is a difference between being born a sinner and being made a sinner.
There is a difference between being born a sinner and having sinned.

No one is born a sinner.

All are sinners by practicing sin not by birth.

* May i know the theological reference for this your exegesis.

* As at today, the theological conclusion of all the major Christian groups, is that original sin is an imputed transgression in ALL human beings, through Adam and Eve, just as the vicarious death of Jesus is the atonement (imputed righteousness).

bennyann:
In the "unknown" now. What if the "unknown" is the where and when it matters most? .

Assumptions, abstractions and perplexity, which in the first place, created the god idea in the minds of the cave men.

It's not surprising that 21st century folks still romance this basic level of thinking. It evidenced the power of religious beliefs, as it inhibits human minds from advancing into critical and realistic thought mode.

bennyann:
The Your intelligence can't help you always because you are not omniscient,.

Who's omniscient?
What's omniscient?
What practical use is omniscience?

bennyann:
infact all of the intelligence put together is not even to the beginning level of the omniscient. .

You're still doing infantile abstract thinking.

Why will you say "in fact"?

When you even can't tell me just ONE instance, that my intelligence can't help me.

bennyann:
And don't think of branching akintom, I won't follow you there. I still still have a whole lot to read on this thread.

Thank you.

You shouldn't be putting in the public place, that which you can't intelligently discuss then.

I expect no less from a mind prodded, by primitive pattern of thinking. That's the summary of religious beliefs.

shurinz:
A foolish man thinket in his heart that there's no God.

OP,

This is the case in instance of religious idiocy, that attract proper thrashing of religitards and christards.

So what now?

How does all these your incoherent and badly referenced quotes, present me the requested verifiable proof, of existence of your god?

bennyann:
But don't you all forget you need Jesus. Your intelligence won't help you where and when it matters most.

Pls state the exact WHERE and WHEN that matters, that my intelligence won't help me!

Harvard13:
Jesus saw what was before him and the flesh felt it and he called out. Remember he said, let ur will be done in the end.

which makes Jesus just an ordinary flesh and blood then.

Again, this act of Jesus further reaffirm how needless and time wasting, prayer is.

Why fooling around with prayers, when you are sure of the desired results?

giles14:
so is ur question that of salvation or to mock Christianity

you obviously don't have useful contribution to make. Pls bow out!

soulpeppersoup:
There is nothing like original sin, it is not in the bible. Any day you see it show me.

Nothing like adamic nature.

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Romans 5:12 Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Romans 5:15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded to many.
Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came on all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came on all men to justification of life.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

G

giles14:
I don't chat/argue matters concerning Christianity with a Muslim or Muslims.

Are the Muslims not part of the lost sinners, deserving of the messages of salvation?

giles14:
wot do u as a Muslim hope to achieve with this venomous question/enquire.

Are you of the Pentecostals or Catholic?
And what's "venomous" about my curiosity?

According to the Bible, the concept of the original sin says, ALL humans became sinner, through the disobedience of Adam and Eve to god, in the garden of eden.

The bible also says that the death and resurrection of Jesus atoned for this original sin.

To access this atonement, the Catholic and Pentecostals have the following process:

The Catholic

* An infant baptism, will atone for the original sin. Therefore, if the infant dies before the age of personal accountability, the infant will be admitted to paradise.

* At the age of accountability, any sin committed by commission will receive forgiveness, once confessed to the Rev. Father.

The Pentecostals

* The original sin will only be atoned for, when an individual (at the age of accountability) admit to being original sinner, confess same and ask god for forgiveness.

* If an infant dies, the infant will go to hell, because the infant is guilty of original sin.

* After removal of the nature of original sin (at the point of being born again), the repentant folk CAN'T commit sin again (how realistic this claim is, is another topic for another day).


Hmmmmm,

Could the Catholic and the Pentecostals be relating with the same god, Jesus and Bible?

DoctorAlien:
Save Moses, Elijah and Enoch, nobody is in Heaven now. We all, starting from Adam, through Abraham, to David and to Mary, and then to the righteous people who died today, will resurrect to immortal life when Christ comes back in the clouds of glory to end this wicked system of things. (See 1 Thess. 4:16-17)
)

Nothing can be more nonsensical, than this one brought forth by one of the most morbidly fanatical fellows here.

God and all his Heavenly hosts, are spirits (immortals), according to the Bible.

Now that the trio of Moses, Elijah and Enoch (in their mortal bodies) were ferried to heaven that's not material, but "ghostly".

How shall they explain this;

* the very Bible says no mortal man can see god.

The question,

By what means are the trio (Moses, Elijah and Enoch) now dwelling with god, in the immaterial heaven?

Harvard13:
wrong notion there. Remember, everything happens for a reason. Jesus' prayers weren't answered then because his death was needed to save mankind.

This is one of the obvious absurdities in the whole concoction called bible.

Why will Jesus have to pray to escape the death that, he (Jesus) claimed he was destined to died. Even before the foundation of the world.

It takes just only "intelligence" sustained by by anachronistic ideas, to find sense in these bunch of craps, called bible.

Much as the Christian apologists on NL are gasping, to refute the glaring absurdities and contradictions embedded in the bible, their defenses are as absurd as the false claims that they're striving hard to defend.

From,

John 3:13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

It was obvious that Nicodemus and folks who heard Jesus's claims of being god, from god and sent from god, want to know how Jesus could rationally make such claims, when no human has ever seen god (ascend to heaven and see god, and returned to earth to tell (descend) ).

This same curiosity was expressed by the Israelites, towards Moses, according to the verses below:

Deuteronomy 30:10 If you shall listen to the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul.

Deuteronomy 30:11 For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not hidden from you, neither is it far off.

Deuteronomy 30:12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Deuteronomy 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Deuteronomy 30:14 But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it.

Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil;


It's the above verses that Jesus had in mind when he said;

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, How can these things be?

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, Are you a master of Israel, and know not these things?


* what Jesus meant by this reference is that, when it comes to the authentication and verification of the claims about Yahweh and its commandments, by anyone, there's no need for BODILY ASCENSION OR DESCENSION FROM GOD, as a PROVE of contact with god.

* since Jesus himself neither ascended or descended from god, Jesus is COMPLETELY in the same class of other prophets who spoke as voice of god.


Therefore,

* Jesus LIED when he claimed to have the ONLY TRUE message from Yahweh, by saying he descended FROM from god (not bodily, but because of the fictitiously ascribed "supernatural" events of his life).

* every other messengers that came before him and after him also claimed ONLY TRUE messages, and had fictitiously ascribed "supernatural" events around their lives.

Junia:
The guy is lost
Jesus was teaching Nichodemus what it means to be born again and not the law. And being born again only happens on earth here. We dont become born again in Heaven.
Please read the Bible before you come to argue

this is irrelevant to the thread. And you're not flowing with the argument.

Who's talking about being born many times? Jesus said what was false, period!

DoctorAlien:
You are one of the most unintelligent "freethinkers" I've met on this forum. The magnitude of the stupidity of the questions you ask is staggering. I mean, to think that you claim that you once had anything to do with Christians is currently impossible for me.

Please, go and work on your comprehension before you quote me. Unintelligent questions are not meant to be answered.

hohoh..... Kikikikikikiki...... This follower of nazarene is hurt in the most delicate place.

CriticMaestro:
unverifiable you say yet u are on this thread because of a quote in the book u claim to be unverifiable, which side are u on? its not right to believe some and leave some, u gotta choose

am on this thread because the crap compiled in the bible, is inherently harmful to the gullible and mentally weak folks.

Besides, it's the obvious contradictions in the fictitious story book called Bible, that's the focus here.

The crap you put forward as the explanation for the contradiction, further revealed the deeper incoherence embedded in the buy-bull.

Junia:
God

and god is in heaven?

Why will Jesus now be calling the law given to the Jews, through his prophets and taught by Nicodemus, AN EARTHLY THINGS?

CriticMaestro:
question: how was he conceived?
answer: of the holyghost
answer: born of the virgin Mary
did he come to fulfill a prophesy?? are u following or should keep going?

all these are mere and unverifiable claims. Didn't Jeremiah claimed the god made him prophet before he was conceived?

Did Jesus descend bodily from heaven?

Junia:
Funny
Jesus was actually talking about the teachers of the law in that passage.
Nichodemus being a teacher of the law couldn't understand the earthly things Jesus was teaching him.
Therefore Jesus was actually saying that, if you being a teacher does not understand earthly things, how would you understand Heavenly things when none of you (teachers) have been to Heaven before.

where was the law been taught by Nicodemus received from?

DoctorAlien:
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Jn. 3:12-13 KJV

.

Elijah and Enoch were given birth to, they claimed to have met and received messages from Yahweh. At the end, they both were ferried to heaven.

Jesus was given birth to and claimed all that Elijah and Enoch claimed. He was ferried to heaven too.

* what is the difference between the three of them?

* did Jesus descend from heaven? Noooo

Another name for crap is contradiction.

CriticMaestro:
Answer: In John 3:13 Jesus says to Nicodemus, “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man.” This verse is somewhat difficult to interpret and is often misunderstood. It is also frequently used by those who want to find contradictions in the Bible.

We must keep the verse in context. In verses 10-12, especially, we see that Jesus is talking about His authority and the validity of His teaching. Jesus tells Nicodemus that He has been teaching what He knew firsthand: “We speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen” (verse 11). Then, in verse 13 Jesus explains why He is uniquely qualified to teach of the kingdom of God—namely, because He alone came down from heaven and possesses the knowledge to teach people about heaven. Jesus alone has seen the Father, and He alone is qualified to declare God and make Him known (John 1:18).

The gist of John 3:13 is this: “None of your earthly teachers can really teach you about heaven, because none of them have actually been there. However, I have been there. In fact, it is My home. I have come to you from heaven, and I have brought with Me experiential knowledge of that place. My testimony carries weight; I can tell you the truth about salvation.” The NLT brings out the meaning well: “No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.”

In claiming a heavenly abode, Jesus was claiming deity. Nicodemus himself had already admitted that Jesus was extraordinary when he said, “We know you are a teacher who has come from God” (verse 2).

Jesus was not teaching that no one had ever gone to heaven before. Obviously, the Old Testament saints had gone to heaven (or paradise) when they died (Mark 12:26-27), and Enoch and Elijah had been taken there without dying (Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11). Rather, He was teaching that, of all rabbis, He had the best credentials. Jesus has direct contact with heaven; He is an expert on the subject.

John 3:13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


The crux of this thread is the contradiction that borders on the claim of Jesus, that no man has ascended to heaven bodily.

But if you now choose to do exegesis that wanna parry this to getting messages from heaven, all the priests, prophets and John the baptist, all ascended to heaven to receive messages from Yahweh via dreams, vision and trance.

Therefore, your exegesis is void and not applicable to the ignorance of Jesus.

jonbellion:
okay
When you're dove bloviating the contradiction is still here
Elijah flew to heaven
Jesus said no one has flown to heaven
Besides your holier--than-thou-you're-too-carnal-to-understand-the word of God crap would you like to enlighten me
Ooh wait I forgot
You can't
It's written all over your response

Enoch (pastor Enoch Adeboye is hoping for this experience though) was whisked to heaven too.

Jeromejnr:
The answer to your silly question is very obvious.

But guess what?

I wont even waste my time explaining nothing to you folks because it wont even change anything.

If you havent gotten the foundational knowledge of Christ coming into the world and paying the price for your sins, how will your blind eyes see deeper into the advanced wisdom of God.

Quote me and I wont even bother to answer

cowards are the religitards and the christards.

CriticMaestro:
post ur qurstion very well

was the nazarene not been ignorant or oblivious of the Torah, to have said no one has gone to heaven?

When both Elijah and Enoch have been?

jonbellion:
okay I will
Oya contribute

never expect sensible comment from someone, whose intelligence is on life support.