₦airaland Forum

Choir session

The Thanksgiving session

This session was classed into groups of families, who had notified the church of their need for special time, to testify of the things that they claimed skydaddy has done for them.

And when they started doing the story telling of the usual, and in the rare occasion, not so usual events, that are common to everyone, i gradually became bored with the stale and recycled gists.

Having spent close to 3 hours, listening to the same same story, i got up and drove away. The more that i had not taken breakfast at about 11:30am, i had no better excuse, to excuse myself.

The shepherd session

Whatever it was, that the folks responsible for the cleaning up of church were thinking, that made them forget to sparkle the podium. Was spotted by the shepherd when he arrived at the podium. He ordered for towel, with which he started dusting the glass podium. Sensing what was amiss, the folks whose duty it was swamp the podium arena, and took over the cleaning proper.

Shepherd returned few minutes later, asked us to open the story book to Psalms 107 and read out ,while standing, the whole verses (43). It's projected on the screen, so i read from there, since i couldn't locate my bible whereabouts, when I was leaving the house.

He made us read these long verses in three different Bible translations, while standing. I wouldn't no why the standing punishment, to read the same story from three different versions, when the only difference, is the mere changed words that are albeit synonymous.

While reading these verses, it dawn on me again, though in fresh manner how that religious indoctrination (through the continuous reading of Bible stories, and attaching strong sense of literariness to them) is a significant factor, in human mental conditioning, to consciously and unconsciously create and surround their life experiences, with real and imaginary "enemies", this is topic for another day.

The shepherd picked 4 verses out of the 43 verses he made us read, while standing. Then i wondered at time wasting tendencies of church folks. Why waste the time to read 43 verses, when all you need are 4 verses.

The 4 verses bordered on giving thanks to the skydaddy for the things he made possible for the sheepmaniacs. The shepherd would equally want them to give thanks to the skydaddy, for desires that didn't get fulfilled up till now. I wondered the need for the unwarranted and undeserved thanks to the skydaddy. Whatever the meaning of Thanksgiving, if it's not act of showing gratitude, for favour received.

Anyway, religious indoctrination have a way of rationalizing contradictions and absurdities.

I noticed that the shepherd has significantly been won over, by the preachings of material success now. He went on to tell how the church has acquired a piece of land, that shares boundary with the church, and that they have been eyeing for long.

Although they have made deposit, they still have outstanding millions of naira balance payments to make. A commitment to paying this balance was prophetically dumped on the sheepmaniacs. They were encouraged to factor the payment into their 2017 plans. This will compel skydaddy, to cause them to be materially successful (the usual gimmicks of most religious merchants).

He thereafter lead us into a worship song that i used to love then. It's so an emotional song for me then. This song do activate goosebumps experience in me. This song:

You're awesome in this place
Mighty god

You're awesome in this place
Our father

You're worthy of our praise
To you our heart we raise

You're awesome in this place
Mighty god

Did i experience goosebumps this time? Yes i did, i felt it in my right thigh. The shepherd too broke down emotionally, in a weepy voice, he started pronouncing best wishes for the sheepmaniacs in the name of the skydaddy, and they were all thundering amen.

In my rough recollection, today was about the third time i was going to attend church service, in the last three years. This disposition was informed by my initial skeptic, which is now atheistic worldviews towards god idea and all forms of religious rituals.

It's about 10:45 pm yesterday, that Seun, my good friend/brother, put a call to me, and after exchanging the friendly banters, he requested that i attend the church service today (we attended the same church). He informed me that it's gonna be the annual thanksgiving service.

Of course Seun had at different times pleaded with me to attend church, saying that irrespective of my disposition, i should try and attend at least the Sunday church service. My usual excuse had always been hinged on "i will try" or "you know my location is far from church, you know".

He pleaded passionately this time, i became moved by his plea, still wanting to dodge the commitment of attending, i told him that i will attend today's service, on the condition that he comes to pick me at home.

Now, the distance of the church to Seun's house is about 1KM, while the distance of my house to that of Seun is about 12KM. I had thought that this distance clause will discourage him from agreeing to my conditionality, alas, i was wrong. He agreed to come pick me as early as possible.

I didn't really take him to be serious. But to my little surprise, he called me at about 6am today, informing that he's on his way to my house. He came, and since i didn't expect him to be that serious, i wasn't prepared. I had to bath and dress up (man's time of dressing up, is infinitely far from that of ladies) in his presence, all within few minutes, and off we rolled to the church. I left in my car though, since i knew that his quest elasticity wouldn't stretch to bringing me back home, and for the fact that am not gonna be that patient to wait, till the end of the church service.

Arrival at the church

It's a little feeling of long stay away for me, when i entered the church environment and hall. Nothing much has changed. Other than the construction works in and around the church. The folks there had pretty not changed, saw old and new faces.

This church was the last one i had formal membership. I particularly liked the church then because the shepherd, was not a fan of preaching that leaned dominantly on material success and witchcraft hunting. He simply reads the Bible stories and explains them.

I got in when the praise and worship was on. The usual entertainment (songs and dances), of course i participated to the best of my voice and dancing steps. It's the intermittent deafening shout, which i usually don't find interesting, that still mar today's entertainment session of the service.

Sinkills:
God is all-knowing and all-powerful. There is no doubt about that. He is also sovereign - it is what He allows that happens.

The question you failed or refused to ask yourself is this - if god is sovereign (it's what he allows that happen)?

* why did god allow judas to betray Jesus, since such act will offend it?

*why did god allow the situation that warranted betrayal of Jesus?

*why did god allow judas to hang himself, and not do a forceful salvation for him like Paul?

It's obvious that, god idea is the most nonsensical variant of all human ideas.

Sinkills:
Where you quoted in Ephesians 1:11 simply means that God had a fore-knowledge of the fact that those who are saved will be saved at such time and in such circumstance. So He prepares ahead of time before they are saved for what they are going to do for Him and humanity (Jeremiah 1:5).

Since your god knew ahead, those that will accept its nonsense, why didn't it prevent the birth of those that will reject its nonsense?

Because it's a monster, it needs them as roasted barbecue in hell, perhaps.

Sinkills:
Ours is based on perception but God's foreknowledge is accurate. Please let us not use God's sovereignty to explain away human responsibility. They are two sides of the same coin. God allows us to exercise our freedom of choice to obey Him or not and the consequence is ours. May you and I always choose to obey God in Jesus' name, Amen. I hope you understand.

Its sovereignty has effectively been nullified by human free will (personal responsibility).

There's no way to understand nonsense, than to see it as nonsense, and just wonder at folks that romances idiocy.

plaetton:
That thread is not commenting , simply because the issue of burden of has been thoroughly debated in this forum, is very simple to put to rest.

One cannot logically prove a NEGATIVE proposition.

It is the one that makes a positive, affirmative proposition that is saddled with the burden of proof.

Any other argument beyond that is a waste of time.

A look at the puerile back and forth worn out comments, that have attended the nonsensical thread, proved you right.

The filths that populated the thread, are from the five leprous fingers, who are gloating in their delusion.

The OP is particularly ridiculous, in his mischievous revelling in absurdities.

Intelligent and scientific response to the above trash....



Züriach.

I see alot of People here immeadetely jumping to the conclusion that this is evidence for afterlife (as a confirmation bias for their already established belief).

Hell, i also would like to have a "happy afterlife".. Unfortuantely there are several flaws with these statments.

First of all, most described here were not technically "dead". They still use heartbeat as a measurement of being "alive", rather than the brain itself. A "proper" death is when all activity is 100% gone, and your body/brain starts decomposing.

This research is not evidence of so called "afterlife" whatsoever. Since it can all be very easily explained by lower forms of brain activity (even after the hearts stops), which would indeed change our view on how our brain works somewhat...

But its not evidence for "Souls" or ghosts. There is literarily nothing in this research that would even slightly indicate that.

Concluding that this observation is due to a "spiritual afterlife" is not only a VERY drastic, but also completely illogical conclusion that is not rooted in proper evidence.

To you people who were looking for scientific "evidence" for afterlife, i am afraid you say that this is not it.

Below is the type of study, that NL apologists uses as evidence of afterlife. Even a two year old science student wouldn't touch this trash.


There IS life after DEATH: Scientists reveal shock findings from groundbreaking study


LIFE after death has been "confirmed" by scientists who have discovered consciousness continues even once a person has died.

In a large scale study of more than 2,000 people, British boffins confirmed that thoughts DO carry on after the heart stops.

The shock research has also uncovered the most convincing evidence of an out of body experience for a patient declared dead.

It had been believed the brain stopped all activity 30 seconds after the heart had stopped pumping blood around the body, and that with that, awareness ceases too.

However, the study from the University of Southampton shows people still experience awareness for up to three minutes after they had been pronounced dead.

A graveyard might not be your final stop
Lead researcher Dr Sam Parnia said: "Contrary to perception, death is not a specific moment but a potentially reversible process that occurs after any severe illness or accident causes the heart, lungs and brain to cease functioning.

"If attempts are made to reverse this process, it is referred to as 'cardiac arrest'; however, if these attempts do not succeed it is called ‘death’."

Of the 2,060 patients from Austria, the US and the UK interviewed for the study who had survived cardiac arrest, almost 40 per cent said that they recall some form of awareness after being pronounced clinically dead.

Dr Parnia continued: "This suggests more people may have mental activity initially but then lose their memories after recovery, either due to the effects of brain injury or sedative drugs on memory recall.”

Many patients reported an outer body experience
Of those who said they had experienced some awareness, just two per cent said their experience was consistent with the feeling of an outer body experience – where one feels completely aware and can hear and see what’s going on around them after death.

Almost half of the respondents said the experience was not of awareness, but rather of fear.

However, the most significant finding of the study is that of a 57-year old man who is perhaps the first confirmed outer body experience in a patient.

The man was able to recall with eerie accuracy what was going on around him after he had ‘died’ temporarily.

Dr Parnia continued: "This is significant, since it has often been assumed that experiences in relation to death are likely hallucinations or illusions occurring either before the heart stops or after the heart has been successfully restarted, but not an experience corresponding with 'real' events when the heart isn't beating.

"In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat.

“This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn't resume again until the heart has been restarted.

“Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events."

Bunch of apologists here, are mischievously ignorant, when it comes to scientific culture and orientation.

They are irredeemably arrogant to accept this fact. That's the reason they continue to spread their pitiable limitations here.

What do one do with folks, that can't derive comprehensive perception of a standard thought pattern.

Below is a copied text of one of NL apologists:


1. Does God exist?


2. If you answer to 1. above is "I don't know"
"Can you a human know whether or not God exist?"
If you answered "No", to 1. or 2. you have a claim that should be proven beyond doubt.


3. If your answer to 1. AND 2. is "I don't know,"
Do you have the basis/grounds to say "This is how to prove the existence of God" since you don't know what this entails?


If you say "Yes" you have a claim that you should prove beyond doubt: how you may not know who or what God is or know whether or not anyone can know him but you know how to detect Him and be convinced "This is God!"


How can this low and perforated thoughts, be worthy of consideration?

Sinkills:
You are wrong on one of your premises: God did not create Judas to fulfil the purpose of betraying Jesus - Judas allowed himself to be used by Satan as a result of greed. Even at that, if Judas had repented, as Peter did, he would have been forgiven.

Do you agree with this.....?


Predestination

Predestination in its broadest conception is the doctrine that because God is all-powerful, all-knowing , and completely sovereign, he "from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass," ( Westminster Confession).


"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

No group of folks are as cognitively dissonanted as Christian group. Highly illusioned in their perception of other human beings.

When i write, i have in mind the folks that my writings, will cast a shocking doubt on their religious idiocy. And so be wakened to reason.

I have folks who are victims of religious beliefs, because of accident of birth and association in mind. Guiding their skepticism to atheism.

Encouraging other atheists, to know that there are many who are of their like minds.

These are what some of these apologists here don't know.

Lennycool:
Normally I'd have a more apt title but I couldn't think of any right now.

Theist especially christians like to point out that they do good for the sake of God, that without believing in God the world would turn to anarchy.
People would go crazy.
Or as euphemistically put by promise10( or was it felixomor? Mehh)
people would go "Raping and killing" (even though there are atheist all over the world that prove that assertion wrong)

Theist often say
"If it wasn't for God I would have __insert unlawful/violent action here__"

So what they basically mean is that without God they would have no reason to be lawful.
But is that really true? Are they lawful because of God or because of the constraints of the law and those which duty it is to protect it.

What would happen if the Nigerian police force and the military went away, what would happen to our very religious nation if the man made constitution was suspended, surely the rules of God would override all and still keep our people lawful?

This is hard to believe especially in a crime filled country like nigeria, but what about societies with a
a long tradition of civility.

It was actually put to the test believe it or not.

In his book The Blank Slate, Stephen Pinker wrote:
As a young teenager … I laughed off my parents’ argument that if the government everlaid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the test at 8am on October 17, 1969, when the Montreal police went on strike."

Pinker goes on to tell the story. By 11.20am the first bank was robbed. By midday most stores had closed because of looting. Airport taxi drivers burned down a rival garage. A rooftop sniper shot and killed a provincial policeman. Rioters broke into hotels. A doctor killed a burglar he caught in his home. In that one day in Montreal, six banks were robbed, a hundred shops were looted, twelve fires were ignited and three million dollars worth of property damage was done. The city authorities had to call in the army to restore order.

Pinker commented, "This decisive empirical test left my politics in tatters (and offered a foretaste of life as a scientist). The generalization that anarchy in the sense of a lack of government leads to anarchy in the sense of violent chaos may seem banal, but itis often over-looked in today's still romantic climate."

If this could happen in highly religious (as of the 1960's), civilized Canada. Then hardly any country would be exempted.

Therefore God doesn't make us moral or lawful. Manmade laws and their Agencies do.
Without laws even with the belief of God, all states will fall into anarchy.

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Jcross KingEbukasBlog Decide

The collective moral rating of any society, is a function of the justice system of the society.

The religious folks are dupes, who hide under religious laws or ethics, to evade justice. They resigned to "let god judge", when it's known that god judge nothing.

The cowards are restricted by justice system, and not their dubious god restrains. The religious folks, especially the Christians are capable of worst atrocious acts than isis, if not because of the justice system of the society.

The case of these NL apologists is pathetic in a unique dimension. What possible value can one place or derive from bunch who are being influenced, in hypnotic and moronic pattern, by these following species:

* a man who claims that all the sheepmaniacs in his herd, must undergo deliverance, because they are Africans (their ancestors were pagans).

So daft is this fellow, that it didn't occur to him that Abrahamic god was a deity in haran (the native land of Abraham).

* a man who turned his sheepmaniacs to reflective jacket wearing mascots, who walk aimlessly around market places and disturbing the quietude of the neighborhood.

These sheepmaniacs are under a special illusion, that they are chosen for for something extraordinary by the Jewish deity.

* a man who claimed his scarecrow has ultimate power. Yet when a little girl told the deluded terrorist, that she's a "witch for Jesus", this liar couldn't exorcise anything from the innocent girl. Rather he battered the little girl, and victimized her.

* a man who says blood transfusion should be rejected, even when death is the only option left.

* a man who print his picture on bottle water, handkerchief, armband, olive oil and claimed these fetish materials cures diseases and protect against accidents.

According to Decide,


The mental slant of these folks can be summarised this way:

C: Atheist provide prove God doesn't Exist


A: I Never made the claim God doesn't exist So why should i prove it?


C: Because Atheism means "There is No God"


A: No Atheism doesn't Mean that


C: But Atheism means there is no God


A: I Just Explained to You just now


C: Atheism means there is no God!

Their unfounded claims includes:

*the Abrahamic god exists as a "personal god".

* it created everything

* it's the supreme being

*it intervenes in human affairs etc



Then you ask these folks,


*how did you know all these?

*How can you establish all these?

*by what means shall you prove these?

The only thing they come up with is the bible (circularity).

Their difficulties ranges from:

* ignorance of what atheism is.

* ignorance of the concepts of atheism.

* ignorance of the implicative meaning of "lack of believe in god"

* gross ignorance of the emergence and evolutionary history of the Abrahamic god idea.

*ignorance of scientific reasoning and standard.

*allergy to dispassionate debate.

* limited vocabulary

To....

* propensities for lies, distortion and outright misinformation.

I have since established my propositions on the most visible NL Christian apologists.

They fall into one of these classes:

1. those who knew god idea and religious beliefs, can't be debated sincerely on the premise of reasons. These ones just read threads without commenting.

2. those who knew no 1, but are too emotive to ignore the demystification of their Idol. They leave meaningless outburst and never read the thread again.

3. Those who are ignorant of no 1, and are infected with extreme ignorance of their religion and basic intelligence, required to put up meaningful arguments, in defense of their claims that are largely based on assumptions.

4. Those who see themselves as defender of god, but are too arrogant to accept the fact that, human beings hold the right, to reject any form of beliefs anytime they so which.

5. Those who have been chronically conditioned in their minds, to the point that hyper-inhibitory and antagonistic impulse, to intelligent thinking, is activated, immediately they read or perceive any contending views on their god idea

My assessment of most Christian apologists that i have engaged here directly and indirectly, presents a pitiable score, on the the scale of basic intelligent thinking, when it comes to the subject matter of Abrahamic god idea.

It's no surprise anyway. The educational level of most of them is obviously lacking in introspective, deductive, comprehensive, creative, inquisitive and curiosity capabilities.

This is primarily not their fault. The educational system in Nigeria makes no such capabilities a possibility. But it's an untenable reason, for anyone to continue in such deficiencies.

Engaging these folks hardly present lines of arguments, that useful knowledge can be gotten from. So emotive are these folks, that their reasoning faculty is immediately hyper inhibited when confronted with contrary opinions about god idea.

You start out on a sincere desire to engage intelligently, before you know it, they descend into rathole and based rebuttal.

You choose to do a thorough dress down on them, Pronto they report breaking of rules. Some moderators sympathetic to their being petulant, presses a ban button.

damogul:
The rebuttal the OP seeks is Proof from you. Do you have any?

You will do well to stop quoting me. It's no use to the least sensible being, to engage you.

damogul:
You do not believe God exists. Show us your empirical data backing this up if you have one. Or show us something irrefutable especially since science is still unable to disprove God. Show us how you arrived at your own conclusion and stop asking others questions when the OP is about proof.

Sorry, the rebuttal is meant for the OP.

PDBonline:
Can you also show how you scientifically came to know how God MUST look like and MUST behave in all circumstances, so much so that you are convinced that if God exist, certain things should not happen or should happen.

I will be very glad to see an atheist come up with the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE for his/her stand that there is no God, NOT against other people's believes.
This is very fair since that's what you say you believe in and I have seen a lot of atheists say, "Logic!" here on Nairaland while making fallacious claims. Let's put your "No God or gods" claim to LOGICAL TEST too and let's see the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE as explained above,like you demand from others.

PLEASE NO ONE SHOULD RESORT TO INSULTING ANYONE OR REPLYING AN INSULT. LET'S FOCUS ON THE ISSUE.

Expectant.

Thanks.

Let me assume that you are sincere here.

Let's look dispassionately now at issue of god idea, and specifically its existence.

The human existential and essential experience, thrives on belief system - the mental process that helps humans to know and establish what they think is true. Be it tangible or in tangible.

The god idea (theism) happened to be one of the beliefs that humans developed at the earliest time of human development, in an attempt to resolve their perplexity, about some phenomenon they couldn't provide rational and empirical evidence for. This was due to ignorance and knowledge level.

At the exact time that this god idea/theory emerged, the belief that also rejected this belief emerged as well (atheism).

The beliefs (atheistic) that were put forward, to replace the rejected beliefs (theistic), subscribes to reason and objective explanations, as against the theistic views that were completely founded on assumptions and subliminal.

Can you respond to this pls.....

Sinkills:
Can you see what happens when we misrepresent God? Haters of God take advantage of that to blaspheme. (Romans 2:24).

What's the meaning of blasphemy?

Sinkills:
I can see that you are an atteist. I don't know the god you ate referring to, maybe you are talking about the god of these proponents of predestination. Well, if you want to know. Pharaoh and Judas had made up their minds which God knew. Concerning Esau and Jacob, God had known their future before they were born just as He knows yours and mine. Thank you.

Let's look at this subject of predestination and God dispassionately now.

Using judas as a case study:

*god knew and participated in all the events that involved judas's role (remember that god planned Jesus coming and all that will happen to Jesus).

*god knew that someone will be born, named judas's and will betray Jesus. Even before judas was born.

*and god planned that Jesus be betrayed

*god created judas to fulfill that plan

*god condemned judas for fulfilling his plans. When judas couldn't have done the contrary.

According to the claims of you folks, god has power to make and unmake an event happen.

How do you explain all these?

damogul:
You do realize how silly you sound. You asked for a miraculous event so you can scientifically disprove it and it has been offered you next you start asking irrelevant questions while ignoring the first answer you requested for. If you have nothing better to do then please go and give and do some shopping for your wife assuming you have one.

If am correct, did you claim to be some kind of pastor or you're a pastor?

I have since established my propositions on the most visible theists on NL.

They fall into one of these classes:

1. those who knew god idea and religious beliefs, can't be debated sincerely on the premise of reasons. These ones just read threads without commenting.

2. those who knew no 1, but are too emotive to ignore the demystification of their Idol. They leave meaningless outburst and never read the thread again.

3. Those who are ignorant of no 1, and are infected with extreme ignorance of their religion and basic intelligence, required to put up meaningful arguments, in defense of their claims that are largely based on assumptions.

4. Those who see themselves as defender of god, but are too arrogant to accept the fact that, human beings hold the right, to reject any form of beliefs anytime they so which.

5. Those who have been chronically conditioned in their minds, to the point that hyper-inhibitory and antagonistic impulse, to intelligent thinking, is activated, immediately they read or perceive any contending views on their god idea.

Your sheepmaniacs deserves my sympathy and empathy.

An2elect2:
[i] God is angry with the wicked Thats why we have something as the wrath of God

God not only hates sin He hates the sinners too.

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36

Scriptures are clear. God hates sin but He cannot punish sin. It is the doer of evil that must face the wrath of God for God is holy and just. When we sin we sin against Him.

Anger can be a good thing. It can give you a way to express negative feelings, for example, or motivate you to find solutions to problems.

But excessive anger can cause problems. Increased blood pressure and other physical changes associated with anger make it difficult to think straight and harm your physical and mental health.

Jewish doG has been held bound by anger for about 6000 years now. That's a sufficient time for anger to have damaged its system completely.

Its blood pressure burst and it developed stroke. Got its leg and hand withered. The reason it couldn't hold the roof of the collapsed church, like the Spiderman it claimed it is.

Richirich713:
There are lots of scholars who disagree with that, we'll basically all scholars agree he existed.

Historically, it's said Jesus christ existed. No argument about that.

A Socrates once existed, history said so.

It's the literal claims of his virgin birth, resurrection and ascension, that introduced absurdities and corruption to the history of Jesus, the nazarene.

PDBonline:
Just take a short time to study the link below then come back to examine your statements. We will understand ourselves better.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

LiberaDeus has done justice to your link.

I will appreciate if you could engage me, based on your understanding of god idea and religious beliefs.

You can pick any topic from the issues i raised in my last response to you.

I guess we can have a meaningful discussion from there.

damogul:
How would her telling you a personal experience make any meaning to you since its not your experience? Do you think she cannot think for herself to know when something isnt coincidental or when it defies explanation? Like when someone has been jobless for over a year and within a week of prayer to God under guidance he receives 4million naira and then 2 million naira a week later and is now a ceo of his own business? Or when someone would come to God and be shown a dream where he is being led out of the bush by someone while picking and eating ripe palm fruits.

This someone whom he had not met but could describe and the person in detail and i had the same dream the same night where i was leading a group of men out of a bush and we were picking up ripe palm fruits. This was during a prayer guidance and the next morning i shared it with him over the phone and he was shocked and told me he had the same dream and described the person who was leading them out and it was me and even the cloth he said the person wore was in my wardrobe as one of my clothes. And that same week till date his business began to boom x 3 times. A business that was stagnant and he said he would often go home empty and on an empty stomach









Rehab centers cost money and take time. Gods deliverance is free and instantaneous AND PERMANENT! Rehabs offer no guarantees of permanence.







You are the one coflicted in such an ignorant manner since you assume everything must be scientific when science itself is still researching and still confused about a lot of things.








She is not guilty of anything. All atheists do exactly what she said.



Mental laziness is when you limit your scope of vision and brain use to only the natural while thinking that is all there is. A Christian believes the natural but also stretches their mind to think that there is more out there than the natural. Who between such people seems limited? A strictly natural thinker or a natural and spiritual thinker?






God has existed before your atheistic worldview was invented by man. The onus is on you who alleged that He does not exist to offer us proof to that effect. However the Pillar whom you lean o to assert that has itself not made such a statement...Has Science been able to disprove God? They are either still researching or in a worse confusion than when they first began. If your much loved science has been unable to achieve this then where are you getting your conclusions from? Is that not myopia? Is that not a lazy mind governed by Hasty Generalization as has been already pointed out?







Again you the disclaimer are the one to show your proof of No God. You say atheists have proof that there is no God. Show it!

Mr damogul,

May i assume this time, that you're interested in looking, albeit intelligently into the issue of god idea and religious beliefs.

With all sense of modesty, any attempt at rathole or personal attacks from your end, shall end my engagement with you. You equally have such rights, if you so choose to activate it.

To have a meaningful discussion, let's start this way:

*do you believe a "personal god" exist?

*if yes, how shall you describe a personal god?

*by what means can you prove to me, the existence of a personal god.

Predestination

Predestination in its broadest conception is the doctrine that because God is all-powerful, all-knowing , and completely sovereign, he "from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass," ( Westminster Confession).

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

Sinkills:
The answer to your question is that predestination is not scriptural. The texts you quoted do not imply predestination. They are just proofs that God is all-knowing including knowing the end from the beginning. Predestination suggests that God is partial, deliberately shuts the door of salvation to those He 'hates', yet judges and punishes them for what they do not have control over. This is simply BLASPHEMY! As for John 10:28,29, it is true that nobody can pluck the redeemed out God's Hands but God Himself can "cast them forth as a branch so that they wither and are gathered to be burnt in the fire" if they do not continue abiding in the Vine. (John 15:5,6). So both predestination and unconditional eternal security are twisted and false doctrines that damn the soul. May God give you understanding so that you don't base your faith on sinking sand I J N, Amen.

Judas was predestined by your god.

Pharaoh was predestined by your god.

Jacob and esau were predestined by your god

It's a pity that you speak of a god idea, you certainly don't understand.

PDBonline:
I didn't see how you came to the conclusion that I don't believe in Noah's Ark is unscientific.
By the way, I have never intended to prove to you that because anything not "scientific" is not possible. I and many others have had supernatural experiences that current knowledge in science cannot explain or reproduce. That's logical for someone who knows he/ she is dealing with God.

Can you please provide one "supernatural" experience of yours, that defied scientific explanations? . Pls make it short.

PDBonline:
I also need to mention that I AND MANY OTHERS who have been freed from different addictions supernaturally DIDN'T NEED A REHAB CENTRE. You will talk about empirical evidence, but you will discard people's personal experiences as not true without any scientific basis. Yet you will be calling for scientific evidence. I studied a little science and I have not seen individual cases discarded when gathering data. Rather, it is several individual cases that are used to produce data.
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If rehab centers can achieve what you claimed a god did, don't you think that it wasn't God in the first place?
Or ascribing such transformation to god is fraudulent?

PDBonline:
You can deny your experience with God and call it "PURELY PSYCHOLOGICAL". Mine is a combination of spiritual, psychological and physical because God created the principles and laws that work in all these areas. Science only discovers them and I don't see how lack of discovery, better still, lack of capacity to discover or accept spiritual claims equals falsehood of such claims. [/colour]
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You're conflicting your points of arguments.
If you came forth to claim that you know the reason or cause of certain events, and you provided premises on which you based your claims.

On scientific investigation of these claims, based on your premises of proposition and other scientific principles, your claims were found to be untrue and inexistent.

How do you relate with that?

PDBonline:
If you know anything about fallacies, you should know that many of your conclusions and that of other atheists are assertions with faulty foundations:

- hasty generalizations (e.g "you Christians are lazy"

- appeal to ignorance: assuming your claim is correct because you've not been or cannot be proven wrong

- appeal to silence: making conclusions that God, the resurrection of Christ etc are not true because YOU have not seen evidence

- argumentum ad hominem: claiming a position is incorrect because of something about the person, rather than because of something about the position itself (e.g. Dr. Gary being a Christian apologist, therefore the result of his research is invalid) and so on..

You're guilty of what you're alleging here.

Using a microscopic number of atheists style of arguments or their basic understanding of atheism, to conclude on the comprehensive propositions of atheism, is nothing but cheer mental laziness.

PDBonline:
I have noticed how common this is in atheists' arguments and, in fact, your continuous assertion that there is no God is fallacy judging by the standard you like to subject religious believes to and the game of atheists is to shift the burden of proof as if they also don't have a position they are maintaining.
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You folks claimed god exist. And base on the premises of your proposition, it's been found to be inexistent.

The burden of disproving the prove, of your falsehoods is squarely on you folk.

PDBonline:
THAT YOU HAVE PROOFS-- EVEN WHEN THEY ARE AUTHENTIC PROOFS- AGAINST SOME OTHER PEOPLE'S POSITIONS DOESN'T MAKE YOUR OWN POSITION VALID. SO YOU SHOULD DO BETTER JOB IN PROVIDING YOUR OWN EVIDENCE THAT, OF TRUTH, THERE IS NO GODAfter that you have all ground to condemn people who believe in God.

Until you're able to disprove, the prove of your falsehoods, the proves of atheists remain valid.