raumdeuter:


What makes Madrid job the most coveted in 2010 when Mou joined despite being notorious for hiring and firing and not coveted in 2020 when they are doing the same

Because at the time Barcelona was the best club in the world so their country rivals (RM) presented an option to the man they felt was the other elite coach in the world that could wrestle that title from Barca. Mourinho was promised a stable job. That is why he was not fired after his first season like Pellegrini even though the latter won more games and had more points in his first season compared to Mourinho.

raumdeuter:


He had 2 of Europe top jobs to pick from Bayern and Madrid. One was ready right now and one was "wait till summer". He picked one of the top jobs which shows these clubs despite hiring and firing are still the top destination

A coach has a limited shelf life and he has to get a job quickly and be relevant otherwise he is quickly forgotten

No, your premise and conclusion are at variance. Tuchel had RM, Bayern and Tottenham to select from. In the land of the blind the one-eyed man will be king. He selected from the options he had. This example would have made sense if he turned down the jobs I said are more coveted to take any of the options you listed. He did not.

raumdeuter:


You think a coach will pick Newcastle job over Real Madrid?

Coaches dont care about the volatility, the best coaches still rush to Madrid Bayern PSG Chelsea and those volatile jobs because they get the most exposure

Poch Carlo, Mourinho Pep Naggelsman are the coaches who at their peaks went to these clubs despite their volatility.

Benitez went to Real Madrid from Napoli. So you think any Napoli coach will turn down Madrid. Not every coach can cope with the demand of a top club which is why Klopp stays away just like not all players an cope with it. For every Hazard that failed, there is a Bellingham whose profile is massively catapulted by joining a top club

Madrid job was the one that elevated Zidane, that was actually his only job in management and that makes many people consider him a top coach despite not coaching for over 3yrs, if he did it at a smaller club there will still be people who will doubt if he can translate it into a big club

You are still mixing up RM the club with RM the coaching job. They are not the same. Real Madrid is a bigger club than City but which of them will a top coach want to coach today? That is the discussion. The emphasis is on "today" not in history and the job of coach not the popularity of the club.

At the time that Mou and what not were headed to such jobs they were the most coveted jobs ---> at the time. But the leadership started getting impatient because they knew they had a retinue of top coaches waiting on standby. Is that the case today? Carlo Ancelotti who was to be relieved at the end of the season is still there because?

Of course the RM job elevated Zidane because he won multiple UCL titles whilst there. They begged him to come back but he refused, why so? Why is he waiting for the France job if a more coveted job is asking for him? Maybe he knows that job is not the big deal it used to be before.

raumdeuter:

I asked if all the 100 jobs in Europe were open mention 5 that a top manager will pick above Madrid, you only mentioned City. So to you, Only one job is more desirable.

Actually Madrid was in the run for Tuchel based on reports in March this year which was why Bayern had to move faster

https://www.football-espana.net/2023/03/25/thomas-tuchel-was-making-plans-to-be-real-madrid-head-coach-before-bayern-munich-move
https://onefootball.com/en/news/bayern-munich-set-to-appoint-real-madrid-target-as-new-manager-after-nagelsmann-sacking-37033652
https://thehardtackle.com/news/2023/03/16/real-madrid-considering-thomas-tuchel-swoop/
https://therealchamps.com/2023/03/24/real-madrid-thomas-tuchel-blow/

You are still making the same argument. Tuchel was going to take the job compared to Tottenham- the only other team at the time interested in his services. Your links show he was waiting for the summer. If RM was that coveted job it used to be, he could have waited and ignored Bayern right? He did not. He went with the better of the 2 options.

raumdeuter:


So there are not 5 jobs in Europe that they will be picked over Madrid. So you are saying there is one job out of 100 in Europe that Alonso Xavi and DeZerbi will pick over Madrid and Bayern?

What has changed from 20yrs ago when the likes of Wenger also rejected Madrid for the stability of Arsenal

Many other factors go into selecting a job. I am just ignoring them to limit the scope of the conversation. I could have mentioned Liverpool and even Newcastle as top destinations because the EPL is now more superior to La Liga, Italy, Germany so even if a coach might prefer the Inter Milan job, he will also know that financially and visibility wise, that job may be constraining.

Thus, the conversation should be about the coaching environment. How volatile it is, support from leadership/ownership, patience during the bad times etc. Lopetegui and Benitez will tell you they regretted going to RM.

raumdeuter:


Who are the in demand managers that will turn down Real Madrid at this point? Pep obviously wont coach Madrid because of his Barcelona links, Klopp does not coach in high pressure Environment, he wants underachievng clubs where the expectations are very low so any thing is a big achievement and he would be celebrated

So who are these top coaches who will turn down Madrid? By summer a coach like Alonso will have his pick of clubs who are the 5 clubs he would pick ahead of Madrid in the whole of Europe

Tuchel was one of this in demand managers 12months ago and he picked Bayern. Bayern decision to go early for him was based on rumors that Carlo might be leaving Madrid and Tuchel this in demand manager will be headed there

So I ask again who are the in demand managers that will turn down Bayern or Madrid

It is not about turning down RM. Anyone can accept to be president of Benin Republic if that is the only option. A good comparison will be to ask for those who will be willing to take it over being the president of South Africa for e.g. Not many if any will be the answer. Zidane left the RM job to remain jobless whilst basically waiting for France.

By the way, Tuchel and RM was after he won the UCL with CFC. Following his being fired by CFC, it was Tottenham and Bayern that courted him. He selected the better of the 2 options.

raumdeuter:


Can you list 5 jobs in Europe that Alonso will pick over RM or Bayern if offered to pick anywhere he likes

I did not say there are 5 jobs in Europe Alonso will pick over RM and Bayern. I said if given a chance to select between RM, Bayern and City, Alonso, Xavi, DeZerbi or any other manager that people see as borderline elite will gravitate towards City.

raumdeuter:


What will be the expectations for Man Utd one of the top 3 spenders in the league last season. De Zerbi did not spend as much as Ten Hag he didnt even spend half of ten Hag. Did De Zerbi even have a proper pre season with the Brighton squad?
Man Utd also did not lose key performers like Cucurela, Trossard Bissouma Maupay MacAlister, Sanchez, Caicedo.

So while Man Utd was spending millions and keeping their best players, Brighton was spending significantly less and losing their best players.

If you say 3rd is an overachievement for Man Utd who is the 2nd highest spender last season, what will be their expected finish that will be in line with their expenditure

The expectations for United will be to compete for league titles and possibly win it in a 3-5 year window. Return on investment is always time based. DeZerbi is not required to win anything in the next 7 years which is why he can focus on playing fancy football.

3rd being an overachievement for United is couched by their previous season's performance before ETH. And it was an overachievement because bookies like pundits predicted City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and Newcastle ahead of United at the start of the season. The Newcastle vs United is arguable but it was still outside of top 4 so ETH superseding that should count in his favor.

raumdeuter:


Tuchel though not performing to standard expected of Bayern is still getting his own benefit of doubt, cos he won the league last season regardless of the circumstance, he has won all his CL games and he will get his courtesy 1 yr , even Kovac without the pedigree of Tuchel got over 1yr, to try to steady his ship before the hammer came

Low got that much time because he had a track record of success with Germany. With Low, Germany made semi in 2008, semi in 2010, semi in 2012, World cup winner in 2014, semi in 2016. These success afforded him the benefit of doubt in 2018 and 2020

Alonso will either go to Madrid or Bayern regardless of how they have treated their coaches in the past because he knows those are the pinnacle of football. Or you think he will rather stay in Leverkusen?

Alonso will go there based on avails surely however if he is offered to replace Pep in City or Tuchel in Bayern (Carlo in RM) which job do you think he will jump at?

raumdeuter:


Real Madrid is still one of the most coveted jobs in football, When you succeed at a club of the stature of Madrid you get acclaims like no where else

Conte and Flick where are they now? Klopp is probably scared of going to a club so demanding that you must win every season, you must win in style, you must win by using specific players the management want. Klopp deliberately avoids high pressure environment.
Coaches have turned down Madrid in the past it was rumored that Wenger at his peak also turned them down because of the same Klopp reason, He cannot thrive in a high pressure and regulated environment where you dont get a free hand

Most coaches hired by a top club have shown either success or potential to be successful

Seems you are conflating RMs status as a big club with top managers desiring to go there. RM is still a massive club but being the coach of that team is no longer the top 2 most desirable jobs in soccer like it used to be. Real Madrid, Barcelona and United used to occupy the top 3 jobs. Every manager wanted to do so well that RM, Barca or United would hire them. It is not the case any more.

And while I can understand your arguments about Klopp in relation to RM, the reality is, it is not a stable environment and as such, him and Pep (or anyone else you regard as top tier) do not crave that job. They don't even think it will elevate them.

Of course, that does not mean nobody will coach there. Even Yeovil Town FC can hire a manager. The question is if the top managers see it as the upper echelon of football coaching like it used to be. The answer is a resounding no and it is not because they won't pay you a good salary or offer you the trappings of working for a multinational organization. It is because the job/environment is unstable and top managers fear they won't be given enough time to implement their ideas.

raumdeuter:


If they spent BHA type money in the transfer market then they should be content with BHA type results

You cannot spend 10times what Brighton did and be okay with Brightons result

DeZerbi joined Brighton after TenHag

What does salvageable looks like? Winning the CL? Semi finals, Winning the league top 2-3? Top 4 or top 10? when you now compare to other coaches with similar budget. Now think that a coach who has spent 2yrs ends up with these "salvaged result" Is it tenable to the board who have splashed so much on him and will that give confidence to give him another 200-300M for next season

DeZerbi did not finish 3rd with a cup. Nobody expected United to finish that high in the league whether they admit it or not so in a sense ETH overachieved. To me, that should be the reason he should be given more time. That assurance could allow him to be discipline about the style he wants to play. It is clear he is overwhelmed and thus making mistakes. I don't even think his players are downtooling. They too are confused.

Salvageable for United will be making top 4 and going far (SFs in the FA Cup atleast) and probably a QF in the UCL.

raumdeuter:


January 2003 till date(20yrs) Madrid 16coaches Barcelona 13 coaches

How much different are the 2

Pep and Enrique left of their own volition. In both cases, the club wanted to renew because they wanted to appear as stable. Real Madrid hoped to have that with Zidane because they have realized their errors.

I don't think what I am suggesting is so against the grain. Every manager desires such an environment. Bayern are pampering Tuchel because they realize they did not handle other managers well and you guys now have the same reputation. Would you not have fired Joachim Löw? But see how much time Germany gave him. Do you think Xabi Alonso would want to coach Bayern today seeing how your board treated Naggelsman?

raumdeuter:


Madrid main focus has always been on Mbappe and not Haaland.
Edit: Do you know how many coaches were in Madrid between 1997 and 2003 the years you referenced? Capello Juup, Hiddink Toshack Camacho DelBosque. So 6 coaches in those 6years

Is the Real Madrid Job of today the most coveted job in world football? Bear in mind that Conté, Klopp and even Hansi Flick have sneezed at Real Madrid in recent times. Would they have done so in the past?

I am not against bad managers getting fired. I am all for giving managers who have shown some degree of measurable success some leeway when they inevitably experience some bad times.

raumdeuter:


At some point his continued stay becomes untenable
What are the things you've seen as positives that you can hold onto with TenHag currently

With Pep and Kloop fans saw the style of play even when results are lacking
With what you are seeing currently cam you approve a new 300m budget for transfers

Would United fans have taken BHA style football and 7th or 8th place compared to finishing 3rd, a respectable 2nd best in the FA Cup and winning the Carabao cup? I would think this could have earned him 1 bad season.

I also think the season is still salvageable.

Trevor012:

The only thing consistent about man city winning is Pep. If Pep wasn't at city they would have changed like 2 managers over the last 7 years and you won't be talking about stability. When you have one of he greatest coach of all time why won't you be stable with him winning trophies left, right and center just like we did with Ferguson. The usual life span of a coach at any club is 3 years max. Pep has spent more years than he did at Barca and Bayern combined at City.

Pep did not keep the league in awe in his first season. He finished 3rd and trophyless. The almighty almost omniscient Pep achieved that even with investments in some areas - but City stood by him.

Liverpool had an uncannily bad season the previous one. They are not in the UCL due to this, and Klopp looked out of his depth but Liverpool stood by him. Younger mangers with ambition who can take the reins from Pep and Klopp - the Xavi's, Xabi Alonso's - People of that ilk that are showing tactical ingenuity will rather take projects like Liverpool and City than come to United for millions. See what ATM did with Diego Simeone? That is what I am talking about.

I did not say to reward all managers and never fire failing managers. But you cannot create a reputation or an impression where your top job is cut-throat and managers will be flung out at the slightest turn of fortune. If ETH completely loses the dressing room, speaks ill of his employers or disrespects the fans or your history, then by all means he should be fired. If not, just rally behind him.

patrickmuf:
If Mourinho was the one that had a fallout with Ronaldo and Sancho, we wouldn't hear the end of it.

Have you heard the end of it concerning Ten Hag?

Trevor012:

Barcelona have changed similar amount of managers over that same 20 seasons as Madrid. Why do Madrid get a reputation for sacking managers but Barca don't.

Barca is suffering from the same reputational damage. They had to go beg Xavi to coach the first team. Xavi was coaching in Saudi Arabia and that is who Barca went to beg.

Notice, I did not say you will not win atimes firing and hiring managers. That will be untrue. I said consistent winners like City have stability and win more. Then I compared Chelsea vs City to buttress my point. Know the difference.

I said that is not the reputation you want to have. The best coaches will want to go to City after Pep because they saw how Pep was treated. Granted, he earned it but that is why I said "best coaches".

patrickmuf:
If we wanted someone that will get us results whilst playing horrible football then we could as well have kept Mourinho.

Mourinho the malignant cancer? Mourinho was one month away from dragging SAF before he was sacked. It seems you have forgotten how shameless he was.

patrickmuf:
The difference is that at United he is given money to spend, a lot of money.

If Brighton gives De Zerbi £400m over 3 windows, they'd demand for more. In our case, we are not really after trophies right now, a top four finish whilst improving the playing personnel and performances on the pitch is all we are after.

He could still get it. No matter how bad your form is, you are only out of the Carabao cup like City and now Arsenal. The league still has over 26 games to go for most clubs. Time still dey.

spillo1:

So that's how those clubs reputation have been ruined?

Who born City to get Haaland over Real Madrid? Have you looked at Chelsea recently? They are celebrating Carabao wins against minnows nowadays because they barely win anywhere else.

Edit: Can Mbappé disrespect the Real Madrid of 1997-2003?

patrickmuf:
We saw what Pep was building, it was recognizable from the very start, the same with Klopp...Can you say the same about ETH? Watch that Ajax team and Man Utd under ETH, do you see any similarities?

Why is it looking impossible for him to implement his ideas here even after supervising 3 transfer windows and spending over £400m?

He is making mistakes. No doubt. But even this current City that won a treble play almost nothing like Pep's Barca of 2008/09. The reason? The players are different.

Eric is overwhelmed because he is caught in-between winning anything anyway or taking his time to build the squad in a more organic way that could win or at least compete for a while. Would you have kept him if United played like BHA but finished at the same spot rather than third? Be honest.

spillo1:

How has sacking underperforming coaches damaged Madrid and Chelsea reputation.

RM have won their league 5 out of the last 20 seasons. City, if I am not mistaken, just overtook Chelsea's achievements of the last 20 years in terms of the total. I know CFC have won the UCL twice vs City's once.

You don't want to have the reputation of a football club that sacks its managers willy nilly. The stats back me in concluding that, a majority of those who are categorized as top performers in their RnRs will testify that, their achievements were corollary to gaining cognate experience on-their-job. That means learning from failure or is it failing forward they call it - will fall under that group - because there will always be downtime. That is how the bell curve goes.

My point is, don't sack Ten Hag during his bad patch. Other good managers will take note to avoid you because they know that a 2016/17 for Pep, 2022/23 for Klopp or his final season with Dortmund and so on can and will happen to any and every manager. It is part of continuous improvement. City gave Pep that chance and see how he is rewarding the club. Word is, he is going to extend his contract to stay beyond 10 years with the club. But I digress.

Suffer with Ten Hag and show him that he earned your trust because of last season. There is a good manager in there. We saw it with Ajax FC and with United just this past season. Otherwise, you will hire another manager of a lower quality unwittingly and repeat the vicious cycle.

TrebleChamp:
I said if he was backed massively to sign his players then by the useless Glazers (like they have backed Ten Hag over two season), United would have added at least 2 more EPL titles to our cabinet. Emphasis on backed to get his own players like they have done for Ten Hag. Yes Mourinho is a very controversial Manager, but he is a borne winner if giving the right tools to work with.

There is nothing about Mourinho of the last 10 years that would convince anyone he would have won the EPL. Nothing.

I want my takes on the hot side please.

andrewbaba44:


gundo have been out most creative midfielder this season egbon ,he isn’t being isolated ,xavi and pep different

My point is just that these guys aren’t gundogan level ,it doesn’t make them bad players egbon

And doku have been balling and will only keeps getting better

You're misunderstanding me. I am saying the way Gundogan played under Pep is not the way Kovacic is being asked to play. Same way the way he is playing under Xavi is not the way Kovacic is being played now under Pep. So you have no basis of comparison. You don't have enough data to say 1's level is higher than the others except you are bringing what they have won and in Gundo's case he won most of what he won under Pep.

The conclusion: Give him time.

andrewbaba44:


My point remains Nunez and kovacic aren’t on gundogan levels ,it doesn’t make them bad players though

I can give nunes time but not kovacic ,man can’t be clutch like gundogan till he retires

You are isolating Gundogan that played for City but judging Kovacic of Chelsea. You have to watch him under Pep to come to that conclusion. Kovacic has played for Inter Milan, Real Madrid and City. That is as good a resumé as Gundogan can present. Sure, Gundo has won more but most of his wins were under Pep.

Give Kovacic time. He started well but derailed after his short injury. Players need time to reset. Pep specifically wanted more dribblers this season. He has even said it in his interviews. He is cooking something.

They mocked him for sacking Joe Hart and doubling down on telling Stones to keep playing out the back even though he had made a mistake and conceded a goal against Everton in 2016. Now every coach wants a ball-playing keeper and they all want to pass out the back.

I don't think Pep expects Kova and Nunes to be scorers. Paqueta is not a scorer too. He is getting dribblers with close control to play in the midfield. I think he wants to create distortions that are capable of carving out gaps against low blocks rather than using pacey wingers. Doku was passing the ball back to the midfield when he was on the right today like Walker. That seems to me that Pep is the one asking for it. It seems crazy but isn't he crazily good?

oliverano:




He forgot Pep Lmao !!!

It is what they always do.

andrewbaba44:


City do loose games with kdb ,but we can see that city are missing him and gundogan

Wetin consign gundogan and scoring goals to determine his performance? You know better than this my G,you know I will always support city ,but why not accept the truth ?

Tell me Matheus nunes and kovacic are half the player gundogan was

Gundogan have been so good for Barca despite playing without FDJ and pedri

And mind you gundogan have assists more than all your midfielders,just pointing this out even though it’s not necessary

I quoted you because you are buying the hype and subscribing to hot takes from people who don't know that it is possible to be patient before jumping to a conclusion. One must not have an opinion if they don't make one for a living - especially when they will end up walking it back.

That said, KDB, Gundogan and Mahrez where in City when City were bottom half of the table after 6 games in 2020/21. They were there last season when Arsenal led by 8 points. It seems people forget that City traditionally start slowly and ramp up at the turn of the new year. To zero it down to the absence of 1 or 2 individuals is uncooked and simplistic.

If you want to decide what Nunes and Kova can do, you must give them the same time City gave Gundo so you can understand what is expected of them before you come to that finding. You don't have enough sample points to come to that. For e.g Kova and Nunes have not been asked to play the role Gundo was playing. Same way Gundo is not playing the same role he played for City in Barca.

Give. Players. Time.

andrewbaba44:


You are right

They really miss kdb and Gundogan replacement no be am

Doku isn’t bad but he isn’t on mahrez level

So when KDB played City did not lose or draw any games or what? How many goals does Gundo have for Barca this season?

Ballzproblemm:
man City decline ain't talked enough,I'm sorry this team ain't winning shit for some time.

downgrade everywhere letting go of:

mahrez

gundogan



replacing them with:


kovacic


doku.


no answer to kdb heir.

LOL

zeusis:

Guardiola likes technical security and control and grealish gives him all that. Doku at best should be a second half sub when city finds it difficult to break down low block teams.

If I had my way I'll do that. Or better yet freaking play Grealish in his rightful position which is in midfield. He has better retention than Alvarez, wins more fouls than Foden and has more gravity than anyone not named KdB or Haaland.

That was what made him special at Villa. Jack needs runners ahead of him but Pep is playing him on the wings like he is Iniesta - which he is not. Imagine playing Zidane as a winger (Jack is not on Zidane's level).