₦airaland Forum

@pilgrim



Like

I said, I have already dealt with that concern - and you have asked that same question several times, which should convince any casual observer that you simply are NOT interested in engaging reasonably in a discussion at all. If you are actually interested in discussing, surely Babs, there is no way you could have missed where I REMINDED you that I have dealt with that part of your complaints ALREADY!!!

Ok

Here is the link:

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-84252.192.html#msg1627282)

I have been there and check it up for my response to same

And before you come back complaining yet again in pretence of not having seen it, let me REPOST it even HERE again O!

Thanks for re-posting

Your problem has been that just because in some verses you did not find "Holy" preceding "Spirit", you assume therefore that Jesus must have been speaking in reference to a human being ("spirit". Even when others have demonstrated that the descriptions could not be in reference to any prophet, you're systematically twisting and spinning your assumptions just so that you could try to dribble John's Gospel back to the Qur'an to point to Muhammad! You do well.

You are the one twisting assumptions. I asked very straight forward questions:

1. Since you claimed that it referred to Holy spirit, has it not been in existence?

2. Can holy spirit replaces human spirit?

3. What is the position of 'another' in that context?

In John's Gospel as well the other Gospels, the Holy Spirit is spoken of simply as "THE Spirit". In such instances, even when you do not find the prefix "Holy", it nonetheless is clear in those references that the Holy Spirit is meant. A few of those verses:

Thanks but you are shooting yourself in the leg small small

John 1:32
"And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending
from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him."
(cf. Matt. 3:16 - "he saw the Spirit of God descending
like a dove, and lighting upon him"

The above showed that the spirit is already in existence and 'another' used there cant be for holy spirit. If you are saying another holy spirit, please how many will we be having?

John 1:33
"And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water,
the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit
descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which
baptizeth with the Holy Ghost"

Good, you are still buttressing my claim that the verse never meant holy spirit because the above showed that the holy spirit has been in existence even during Jesus' time. So how come another used would be holy spirit when it is already in existence?

Matt. 4:1
"Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be
tempted of the devil."

Same as above, the spirit already in existence cannot be the 'another comforter" being expected.

Luke 4:1 & 14
"And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan,
and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness. . .And Jesus
returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went
out a fame of him through all the region round about."

Same explanation


Jo

hn 3:5 & 34
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. . . For
he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him."

Same as above

John 15:26
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you
from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth
from the Father, he shall testify of ME"

1. Since you claimed that it referred to Holy spirit, has it not been in existence?

2. Can holy spirit replaces human spirit?

3. What is the position of 'another' in that context?


The reason why I gave you a good number of verses to verify for yourself is just to show you that the Holy Spirit is also simply called "the Spirit" - and in all the instances where it is used in reference to Him, no objective reader could ever miss the fact that such verses point to the Holy Spirit.

You really shoot yourself in the leg because the verse supplied made us known that the holy spirit has been in existence and we cannot be expecting another. Can holy spirit replaces human spirit?
Does holy spirit speak or inspire?

Thanks

@pilgrims

Your questions are inconsequential as far as I've addressed every single claim you had posted previously to deflect from your assertive denial.

You havent told me how the verses referred to holy spirit. Has holy spirit not been in creation and please does holy spirit speak or inspire?


Y

ou had claimed that John 14:16 was referring to none other than Muhammad, and I showed you that the same verse in context was referring to the Holy Spirit. I've shown in previous posts that when the Bible speaks of THE SPIRIT, it is none other than the Holy Spirit Himself.

Now let me break it down for you:

1. Can the holy spirit replaces 'another' human comforter?

2. for saying that it refers to holy spirit, please has holy spirit not been in existence.

3. How many holy spirit will we be having since one is in existence and another is coming (according to christians)

4. Does holy spirit speak or inspire

5. The verse said holy spirit will tell you many things, please what things has it been telling you apart from what Jesus did?

After having layed out the foundation for identifying the Holy Spirit as the very same of whom Jesus spoke when He mentioned the Comforter, my simple question has always been:

Then you need to remove the covering from your eyes and go through where I provided answer to your question

#1. WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?

If you can't attend to that basc question, don't litter this thread with your illiterate posts. I've said that until you and olabowale stop this game and address that questuion, you don't interest me in the least with your duplicity.

If you can simply show me where in the Qur'an Allah called Muhammad the same thing as "THE SPIRIT", then we can move on - and then I will come back and answer every single question you have reposted here.

Regards.

You may go to this link to read the response

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-90174.32.html

@pilgrims

The "Injil" and "Torah" that Allah gave have been corrupted and lost! Hmmm. . . it might interest me indeed! So, having corrupted and lost the ones that Allah gave, your Muslim apologists are busy looking for Muhammad in Deuteronomy (part of the TORAH) and in John's Gospel (part of INJIL)!!

Make una continue to show una hideous duplicity. . . you will be helping me stay far from your FRAUD and out forever from Islam! You guys are total strangers to truth when it comes to your shameless duplicity.

Well done!

Sister, to unravel the mystery of lost and corrupted Torah, some questions for you please

1. Was Moses given the the book of Genesis to Malachi??

2. Was Jesus given the bible?

3. Was he given the book of matthew to revelation?

4. Do we have the book of Elias Jesus read in the bible?

5. Are the authors disciples of Jesus?

6. Were they around during Jesus' ministry?

7. Did they witness his alleged 'crucifixion'?

8. Is the bible 100% inspire?


These and many more

@pilgrim


You are here when you couldnt provide evidence that the verses in question are referring to Holy spirit.

@pilgrim

Sorry, Babs - time up! I don't play games with you guys. I ahve entertained both of you patiently; but until you address the two simple questions I left you in the new thread, you don't interest me in the least with your duplicity.

It seems that your shakara don dey reduce since you were offered questions that seemed too much for and you resorted to beating about rthe bush looking for lame excuse.

This is a link to where I provided answers to your questions and I noticed that you have replied and I will be there after this time out but in the mean time, you may religiously answer those questions, I think say dem no dey too hard

If you care to be gentlemen, I'll oblige you answers - I have always done so.

What else do you expect from someone that has nothing to offer

Shallom.

This is the reason why I stated that your attitude simple put you far below my respects. I had offered that you guys come over to the new thread so we don't distract the purpose of this one - but you keep up the same attitude that only confirms how mentally low you could be.

Hey dont bring that one here, you should be asking yourself for the person that has been littering threads with same issue. You can still attend the questions if you are so sure of yourself and that you havent be pretending.

I left you both just two questions - and you have searched in vain for answers and could not be gentlemen enough to admit that you honestly could not find any. Instead you chase your Arabian wind up here to keep up the same no-brainer attitude you've always put up, and then hope to distract me away from the standing issues presented to you! Your journey far - such Islamic games have never worked on me, sorry!

Have you been to the threads you asked those questions? If you havent,. kindly go there and read my response to your questions but at the same do justice to the questions asked you. No maradona game here please



Salam

As Salam Alaekum

From Ryad-us-saliheen (Garden of the Righteous)

On the excellence of fasting in the month of Muharram and Shaban


Ayesha relates 'the holy prophet did not observe the voluntary fast so often in any month as in Shaban for he observed the fast throughout Shaban.


On the escellence of fasting in the first ten days of Zil-Hajj


Ibn Abbas relates that the Holy Prophet said: 'there are no days during which righteous action is so pleasing to Allah as righteous action in these days . He was asked: messenger of Allah, not even striving in the cause of Alah? He answered,'not even striving in the cause of Allah except in the case of one who goes forth vwith his life and property and does not come back with either.


On the escellence of fasting on the day of Arafat and the 10th day of Muharram.

Abu Qatadah relates 'the holy prophet was asked about observing the fast on the day of Arafat. He said 'it atones for the sins of preceding year and the subsequent year.


On the escellence of fasting in the first six days of Shawal

Abu Ayub relates that the holy prophet said 'He who observe the fast througout Ramadhan and then follows it up with observing the fast on the first 6 days of Shawal is as if he had observed the fast throughout the year.


On desirability of fasting on Monday and Thursday

Abu Qatadah relates that the Holy Prophet was asked about observing the fast on Monday and answered: 'that is the day on which I was born and the day on which I received the call (or the day on which I received revelation)

Abu Hurairah relates that the Holy Prophet said "a man's deeds are reported on Mondays and Thursdays and I prefer that I should be observing the fast when my deeds are reported.


On desirability of fasting in 3 days of every month.

Mu'azah Adawiah relates that cshe asked Ayesha'did the Holy Prophet observe fast on three days during every month? And she said, 'yes. I asked her 'During which part of the month did he fast/ She answered 'he did not mind which part it was.

Abu Dhar relates that the Holy Prophet said; 'if you observe fasdt on 3 days in a month, then make them days of the 13th, 14th and 15th nights of the moon.

Qatadah Ibn Milhan relates 'the Holy Prophet directed us to observe the fast on the 3 white days of every month, meaning the days of 13th, 14th and 15th nights of the moon.

May Allah accept our Ibadah.

Maa Salam

PILGRIM

ANSWER QUESTIONS DONT DIVERT OR USE HID AND SEEK METHOD.

IS THE OLD TESTERMENT STILL VALID

WAS THE BIBLE INSPIRED BY GOD

IF SO, HAS GOD CHANGED SINCE THE TIME OF MOSES OR MAYBE THAT WAS THE FATHER AND NOW IT IS THE SON

Dont mind, she is loosing the battle, she is very confused, pretending as if she didnt see questions

@pilgrim



I can see that you are the one confusing yourself and I will bring out your confusion for you to see.

Don't be such a daft! Do you see where Christians ALLOW Rape?

Are you aware of the verse in the OT where you must forcefully marry a man that rapes you, he must pay your price and you must marry him. I think you do not read posts before replying because if you do, you wouldnt be confusing yourself here. I can give you countless number of rape issues perperated by your pastors, evangelists etc. Some muslims may have done that but can you show me in the quran where it is allowed like the one posted above in the bible?

Quote from: don maselo on Today at 05:26:50 PM
IS THE OLD TESTERMENT STILL VALID

If Muhammad knew that the OT could not help Islam, from where did the Muslims who accompanied him get inspiration to enjoy COITUS INTERRUPTUS?

Sahih Bukhari Book #62, Hadith #136
Narrated Jabir: We used to practice coitus interrupt us while the Quran was being revealed. Jabir added: We used to practice coitus interrupt us during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle while the Quran was being Revealed.

Did you read his question above? He asked you if the OT is still valid and you went other way doing what you are known for. Can you still provide where prophet did same?

If you're seeking a discussion, invite one. If not, keep fooling yourself with excuses of "Islam does not permit RAPE". There are so many things Islam does not "permit" - but Muslims will sex-attack women across the world and still chant: there is no blame!

No comment, we are now seeing the real escapist. Ordinary attend to questions, you no fit do, common answer the question jare and dont divert please.

@pilgrim

Oya questions for you please

@pilgrim

You try avoiding my questions but you have to answer them. I brought them here since you are fond of doing that. So please answer these questions:



1. Can holy spirit be another like Jesus?

2. What is the meaning of 'another' being used there?

3.If you are saying the verse is for holy spirit, please has the holy spirit not been in existence since creation. So how come another holy spirit and how many holy spirits will we be having since one is already in existence?

4. Please what new things has the holy spirit been telling YOU aside Jesus'

5. Does holy spirit speak or inspire and if you are saying it speaks, can you tell me what it has been telling you apart from what Jesus did and provide me verses where it speaks



Bros. Olabowale told you that Jesus never read the bible and you provided verse where he read book of Elias, please:

1. Can you show me in the bible where he read same?

2. Since you claimed that he read book of Elias, is that book the bible you claimed he read?

3. Was he given the bible from matthew to revelation or 'gospel".

4. If indeed he read the book of Elias, it should have been part of the bible and if not, it means the bible is incomplete, please where in the bible do we have the book of Elias.



Let me attend to part of confusion christians are facing

#1. WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?

Allah never referred to Muhammad as spirit but please with regards to the context of the verses, did the verse make any reference to Holy spirit?

I will still explain to you maybe God wil touch your heart, we know that the Holy spirit has been in existence since creation and for you to have said the comforter would be the holy spirit is blasphemy and we would be having more than one holy spirit.

Also, Jesus made a very plain statement that he had to go so that the comforter would come, this shows that the verse can never be holy spirit because even the holy spirit was with him while mentioning that statement.

Jesus also said that the the comforter would be another one.Please can holy spirit be 'another' comforter when Jesus was not same. Jesus here was referrign to Human spirit hence the coming of another comforter and the 'another' would be like him. So in what way would the holy spirit be another comforter.

Jesus even said that he would guide you into all truths and speak. Please do the holy sirit or inspire because there is difference between speaking and inspiring?

#2. Has Muhammad been in existence since the creation of heaven and earth?

You are getting yourself confused. Here you come again, the verse didnt say 'existing since creation' but used that to knock you off that it referred to holy spirit. Since you said that the verse referred to Holy spirit and we learnt that it has been in existence since creation, so another comforter coming after Jesus couldnt have been the holy spirit because it has been and still in existence. The comforter to come would be like Jesus and holy spirit doesnt fit into that.

@Nwando


In addition, I learnt that there is white fasting as well. You may decide to break by 12, 2 or 4 depending on which you are choosing and you may even drink water because it does not spoil one's fast.

@jujukemist


Pilgrim, please on a serious note, do me a favour Ignore babs hence forth. He knows he has lost it.

When your sister couldnt provide evidence where it referred to Holy spirit.



@pilgrim

Please could I also suggest something? Don't try to argue away from the main issue here. The issue is simply this:

Ibn Abbas directly questioned what Muhammad said Allah "revealed" in Qur'an 10 v 94.

That is why I broke it down for mdsocks:

#1. Allah says: "If you're in doubt. . . then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee"

Is that your interpretation of that verse and have you gone through other verses providing the status of Jesus?

#2. Ibn Abbas directly challenged Allah's "revelation" by saying: "WHY do you ask the people of the scripture about anything . .??"

You really understand Ibn Abbas, you are well versed in Islamic education. . Posting lenghty rejoinders yet confusing herself?

Whether they receive the Qur'an or not is not the issue here - Ibn Abbas directly challenged what Muhammad called Allah's "revelation" - and if that direct challenge is not something to make you see anything, then also you're opening the doors to invite that every other person can challenge anything Muhammad called "Allah's revelations".

I thought I have answered you there. You are just making baseless argument.

Ibn Abbas did not carefully consider what was said in the same Qur'an (ch. 2:108): "Would ye question your Messenger as Moses was questioned of old?"

Can you please provide the full text of that verse?

But, your argument is seeking to ignore what the Qur'an says, just so that Ibn Abbas becomes a hero in your eyes, abi?

It seems you are getting yourself confused more

A godly person does not stand to controvert what he assumes to be from God. The moment he does that and nobody questions that contradiction of Ibn Abbas, then we see no reason why people will not want to follow Ibn Abbas' example and also question everything Muhammad said came from "Allah". That is the IMPLICATION I asked you to consider - and not the excuses to pretend you no longer understand English.

Do I need to answer you. The accuracy of the Quran is there for you to ponder on. You may also go to search engine to learn about anything of same

If you had any context to share for Ibn Abbas brashness, please do share and stop whinging.

I sensed you are confused more. . I only need to be praying for you

If it is okay for Ibn Abbas to be applauded for questioning Muhammad and controverting what Allah "revealed", and you're dancing away from the real issue to "but he is still a muslim", then we can sit back and celebrate the way people become and remain Muslims by following Ibn Abbas' example and controvert EVERYTHING and ANYTHING Muhammad said he received from Allah!

E dey pain you. Your argument is baseless. Cant you see what you wrote yourself

@pilgrim


.

The simple reason why you're complaining is because you cannot find the verse in the Qur'an nor Hadiths where anyone - including Allah - referred to Muhammad as THE SPIRIT. You have always asserted that the One Jesus spoke about in John's Gospel 14:16-17 was Muhammad; and my simple query was: please show me anywhere anyone has ever referred to Muhammad as the Spirit!!

I have asked you questions and I will ask you again, has the holy spirit not been in existence, how many spirit are having since you claimed that another comforter would be holy spirit?

How does your explanation fits into the word "another comforter" .how does another comforter refers to Holy spirit when Jesus was a human comforter?

Rather than simple seek dialogue and provide the verse where you saw what you did not see, you started quoting the politically correct bloviates of men who did not even interpret anything from either the Bible or the Qur'an to make Muhammad the one spoken in John's Gospel as "THE SPIRIT".

I have provided enopufgh rebuttal and even gave you the meaning of 'inspire' and 'speak' which you denied and you have failed to answer my questions as to the posistion of holy spirit in that verses. Please what new things has it been telling you apart from what Jesus did?

Since you could not endure the full appelation of "THE HOLY SPIRIT", I simply left it as "THE SPIRIT" - and instead of complaining that I was putting words that are not there, you should kindly settle down and save your complaints and whinging - so you can simply show me where ALLAH or anybody ever called Muhammad either of these terms:

See Maradona calling another person same.

 

(a) The Spirit

     OR

  (b) The HOLY Spirit

Have you found that verse yet, Babs?

Instead of clutters and exculpations, I decided to bring the discussion here, thrash out your excuses, and then repeat my question at the end again:

WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?

It doesn't matter whatever excuses you offer - just answer the Question. QED

Please how could holy spirit be another comforter when Jesus, a comforter is a human comforter. Is there any relationship between human spirit and holy spirit? Jesus said another comforter which means that the comforter would be like him, so tell me how does that referred to Holy spirit?

@pilgrim

(c) We have been one just one subject - WHO is referred to as "THE SPIRIT"?!? I haven't seen you admit your fallacy of trying to force-fit Muhammad into that appellation - not from the QUR'AN, not from the HADITH, and definitely not from the BIBLE! In fact, in Sahih Muslim Book 031, Num. 6081, if Muhammad himself could say that Allah referred to the Holy Spirit who has NO MATCH, what item in your 'list of qualities' was enough to "MATCH" the Spirit of God?

I will still help you if you are feigning ignorance. Now questions for you

1. How could another comforter like Jesus be Holy spirit when Jesus was a human comforter.?

2. Since you claimed that the verse referred to Holy spirit, has it not been in existence and why the coming of another Holy spirit, how many spirit are we having.

3. What news things apart what Jesus told you has the spirit been telling you. (Note; the verse said speak, so what new things has it been telling you)

Babs-babs. . . I know: you're that desperate to "prove" that Muhammad was this, that and the other; but you're desperately failing in your efforts. Rather than come back with another colossal failure to argue away from the present concern, please settle down and provide an answer to the same question I've been asking you for days running:

WHERE did ALLAH ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?!?

You are trying to avoid my question, but too bad, could the spirit mentioned in that verse be Holy spirit forgetting the word 'another'. Does the holy spirit speak and what has the sp[irit been declaring to you with regards to Jesus. What new things has it been teling you apart from what Jesus told you before his demise?

@pilgrim

@babs787,


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
6. struggle against oppression: during the period of ignorance, he signed a treaty with a group of people who also suffered oppression in order to defend the oppressed and resist the suffered oppressions in order to defend the oppressed and resist the agression of the oppressors.

As Muslims can claim just about anything under "the period of ignorance", then the point above for me is a mute one.


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
7. behaviour to the family: he was usually affectionate and kind. he never treated his wives disrespectfully even though at that time it was a common practise. He was patient when arguing with his wives.

If 'usually affectionate', maybe. But Muhammad showed no affection for the families of the women he murdered. Such was the case in Khaibar, where Muhammad "vanquished them by force" (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 2, Bk. 14, Num. 68). The husband of Safiya bint Huyai bin Akhtab was killed while she was a bride; and upon hearing of her beauty, Muhammad took her to himself (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 143). As consolation to Safiya in her bereavement, this is how Muhammad showed "affection" -

"The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) passed Hamzah
who was killed and disfigured. He said: If Safiyyah were not
grieved, I would have left him until the birds and beasts of prey
would have eaten him, and he would have been resurrected
from their bellies. . ."
(Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 20, Number 3130)


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
8. worship; he reserved one third, half or even two-thirds of the night worshipping. Although he was busy during the day, still he allocated some time to worship Allah.

How does that make him "surpass" any other prophet?


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
9. leadership Qualities: he possessed qualities of leadership, firmness, bravery, initiative, foresightedness, receptiveness to criticism etc.

The Qur'an describes Abraham as "an exemplary vanguard" (Q. 16:120) which far surpassed Muhammad's leadership qualities.

Second, the Hadiths demonstrate that Muhammad was NOT receptive to criticism, because he had instigated an assassination plot against a Jew, Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf, who mocked him (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369). Where was the "receptiveness to criticism" in such kinds of assassination plots, where Muhammad even encouraged the assassin to LIE in order to carry out his dastardly act?


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
10. method of propagation: he was compromising when necessary, he was never rigid in the propagation of Islam. he mainly stressed hope and good news rather than fear and domination

Muhammad was both rigid in propagating Islam (#1), as well as casting terror and domination in the hearts of people (#2) as below"

#1. Qur'an 3:85
"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam,
it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter
he will be one of the losers."

#2. Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk. 52, Num. 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been
sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings,
and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts
of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures
of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira
added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people,
are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit
by them).

Babs and Olabowale, if your prophet says that he has been made victorious with TERROR cast into the hearts of people, where do you think the likes of Usama bin Laden derived their model of TERRORISM from? /:


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
11. encouraging education: the prophet encouraged muslims to become educated. he motivated the children of his companions to achieve literacy. he ordered several of his companions to learn the syriac language. He said ' it is obligatory upon all muslims to become educated". he also said " learn sicence everywhere and from everyone even if he is polytheist or hypocrite"

Muhammad was not that condescending to polytheists and hypocrites; so there again is another classic example of doublespeak!


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
12. piety and modesty: it formed his principle.

He was no better than Jonah, Abraham, or John the Babtist.


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
13: decisiveness and resistance

He was no better than Jonah, Abraham, or John the Babtist.


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
14alertness:

He was no better than Jonah, Abraham, or John the Babtist.


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
15; social interaction

He was no better than Jonah, Abraham, or John the Babtist.


Quote from: babs787 on October 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
I would have continue but need your rebuttal to the above and my next post will be on the sayings of muslims, non muslims that made him incomparable

You have said absolutely nothing with regards to defending your assertions that Muhammad was the very One who was referred to as "THE SPIRIT" in the BIBLE!! I've taken care of your convenient cherry-picking qualities that hardly make Muhammad unique; and "the sayings of muslims and non muslims" will not fill the vacuum in the Qur'an or Hadiths for the vacancy of clear verses which were supposed to have referred to Muhammad as "the Spirit". As along as you're caterpaulting away from that core issue, their opinions do not matter to anyone of us here.

I thought you wanted to provide rebuttal based on the position of Jesus to my post particularly on the exemplary character but unfortunately you only provided same with regards to other prophets. We have known christians to always shift post to other issues that are not even necessary. We are here discussing Muhammad and please provide same where we have stories of Jesus as being used for Muhammad just like I provided up. Can I have same referring to Jesus in the bible with regards to exemplary character.

@pilgrim

It would be an understatement to say that I'm not impressed by this weakly borrowed exculpations. One thing I ask is this: Look at that text (Qur'an, سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21, Verse 91) again: it says:

"And (remember) her who guarded her chastity:
We breathed into her of Our spirit, and
We made her and her son a sign for all peoples"

(1) The verse clearly says that both Mary and Jesus are a sign to ALL peoples; and my question is: does it say that Mary is also a sign of the Hour of Judgement? We know that some Muslims can explain things away with a carelessness and rascality that is not rivalled anywhere in the world; but when we examine the scholarship of the Muslim world more closely, we find them saying a totallly different thing from what Babs tried to wave in our face.

(2) The English tranlsation of the Qur'an offered by Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi renders that verse ( سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21 v. 91) as follows:

"And also recall the woman who guarded her chastity.
We breathed into her of Our spirit,
and made her and her son a sign to THE WHOLE WORLD."

Rather than offer you my own understanding of what this means, I'd rather point to the respected sources of interpretations and commentaries (tafsirs) of the Qur'an. Olabowale, how familiar are you with your own Qur'an? Here are a few of such tafsirs on that very verse:

(a) Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
[وَجَعَلْنَـهَا وَابْنَهَآ ءَايَةً لِّلْعَـلَمِينَ]
"(and We made her and her son a sign for the nations.)
means, evidence that Allah is able to do all things and that
He creates whatever He wills; verily, His command, when
He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be'' -- and it is!
This is like the Ayah:
[وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ ءَايَةً لِّلْنَّاسِ]
(And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind) [19:21]

(b) When we turn to the verse cited (19:21), this is what we read:
The angel said: 'Thus shall it be. Your Lord says: “It is easy for me;
and We shall do so in order to make him a sign for mankind and
a mercy from Us. This has been decreed.”
(Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi tr.)

Now, please pay particular attention to the TWO things in that verse: (i) a sign; (ii) a mercy.

What then are these two things pointing to - is it to the HOUR of Judgement as Babs had supposed? Unfortunately, that is not the case from the same sources again:

(a) Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

[وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ ءَايَةً لِّلْنَّاسِ]
"(And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind)
This means a proof and a sign for mankind of the power
of their Maker and Creator, Who diversified them in their
creation. "

[وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا]
(and a mercy from Us,)
This means, "We will make this boy a mercy from Allah
and a Prophet from among the Prophets. He will call to
the worship of Allah and monotheistic belief in Him.
This is as Allah, the Exalted, said in another Ayah,

[إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَـئِكَةُ يمَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالاٌّخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ - وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِى الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَمِنَ الصَّـلِحِينَ ]

((Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam! Verily,
Allah gives you the good news of a Word from Him,
his name will be Al-Masih, `Isa, the son of Maryam,
~~ held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter,
and will be one of those who are near to Allah.
And he will speak to the people, in the cradle and in manhood,
and he will be one of the righteous.) [3:45-46]

I could go on and on to link all the verses that point back to the very verse we have been examining (سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21 v. 91); and it will bring us back to the same inference:

~ that Jesus Christ was said to be a SIGN and a MERCY

~ and He was sent to be a sign to THE WHOLE WORLD

~ He would be held in honour both in this world and in the Hereafter

~ that the verse (سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21 v. 91) was
not to the HOUR of JUDGEMENT only; but also to the PRESENT

~ as such, people were to BELIEVE in HIM - both in the time of:
this world and in the Hereafter.

i will answer your claim below.

You will see that I am not speculating anything of my own; so I would like you to confirm for yourself what the major and respected TAFSIRS interpret that verse to mean! While on that, the question here is this:

Okay.

Did those major Muslim commentators and tafsirs say the same thing that Babs has tried to claim at all? I would just want you to be honest with yourself - that's the only thing that needs confirming, and I'm not interested in any caterwauls, please.

What has Babs been trying to claim?.


I said that I would re-visit your questions and here I go:

that Jesus Christ was said to be a SIGN and a MERCY

The verses say that Jesus was sent as sign for mankind, the verses do not say that Jesus was sent to preach to ALL OF MANKIND. The verse does not say that Jesus was sent as a prophet for ALL OF MANKIND.

Yes, does it say his mission was to preach to the whole world? No, it does not say that, Jesus was sign unto man, not a prophet for all of man. There is a difference in being a sign unto all of men, and being sent for all of mankind to preach to them.

Jesus was a sign for man, not a prophet for all of man. Jesus was sent to preach to a specific people and not to all.

Read below to see whether he was sent to Israel alone or not:

Quran 3v49: and (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel….

Quran 43v59: he (Jesus) was naught but a servant on whom we bestowed favour and we made him an example for the children of Israel.

Quran 3v61: but whoever dispute with you in this matter concerning Jesus after what has come to you of knowledge, then say : come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

Now let us see some verses to know if Muhammad was a mercy to ALL MANKIND OR NOT>

Quran 21v107: and we have not sent you but as a[b] mercy[/b] to the world (all creatures, mankind, jinn, fish, insects, trees, animals etc)

Quran 34v28: and we have not sent you but to men as a bearer of good news and as a saviour, but most men do not now.

Quran 46v9: say I (Muhammad (PBUH) am not the first of the apostles and I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain Warner.

Quran 21v1: blessed is he (Allah) who sent down the Quran upon his servant (Muhammad PBUH) that he may be a Warner to the nations.

Quran 3v132: and obey Allah and his apostle, that you may be shown mercy.


From Tafsir ibn kathir:

Allah forbids the People of the Scriptures from going to extremes in religion, which is a common trait of theirs, especially among the Christians. The Christians exaggerated over `Isa until they elevated him above the grade that Allah gave him. They elevated him from the rank of prophethood to being a god, whom they worshipped just as they worshipped Allah. They exaggerated even more in the case of those who they claim were his followers, claiming that they were inspired, thus following every word they uttered whether true or false, be it guidance or misguidance, truth or lies. This is why Allah said,


(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah.)

Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

(Do not unduly praise me like the Christians exaggerated over `Isa, son of Maryam. Verily, I am only a servant, so say, `Allah's servant and His Messenger.') This is the wording of Al-Bukhari. Imam Ahmad recorded that Anas bin Malik said that a man once said, "O Muhammad! You are our master and the son of our master, our most righteous person and the son of our most righteous person, ''

The Messenger of Allah said,

(O people! Say what you have to say, but do not allow Shaytan to trick you. I am Muhammad bin `Abdullah, Allah's servant and Messenger. By Allah! I do not like that you elevate me above the rank that Allah has granted me.)


I wonder why christians ignore verses from the Quran that speaks on issue bothering them even when they are glaring truths.

(Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him `Isa is only one of Allah's servants and one of His creatures. Allah said to him, `Be', and he was, and He sent him as a Messenger. `Isa was a word from Allah that He bestowed on Maryam, meaning He created him with the word `Be' that He sent with Jibril to Maryam. Jibril blew the life of `Isa into Maryam by Allah's leave, and `Isa came to existence as a result.

Also:

(Al-Masih [`Isa], son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam] was a Siddiqah. They both ate food.) And Allah said,


(Verily, the likeness of `Isa before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be! Ü and he was.)

(He [`Isa] was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him.)


From Tafsir Ibn Kathir on this:

and We made him an example for the Children of Israel.) means, `a sign, proof and evidence of Our power to do whatever We will.'

~ and He was sent to be a sign to THE WHOLE WORLD

He was sent as a sign but not SENT TO THE WHOLE WORLD.

You have to look at these please:

mattew 1v21: and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins.

Who are Jesus people? The Jews are the people of Jesus because he was sent to them alone.

John 4v21-22: Jesus said unto her, woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem worship the father, ye worship ye know not what we know. We know we worship, for SALVATION is of the JEWS.

Jesus said that salvation is for the Jews because he came for Jews alone.

Mathew 15v24-26: but he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel……,

Here Jesus said, he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel although there are other countries apart from Israel but was sent only to them.

Mathew 10v5-6: these twelve, Jesus sent them forth and commanded them saying, go not on the way of the gentiles and unto any city of the Samaritans, enter ye not, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Math 19v28: and Jesus said unto them, verily I say unto you, that which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribe of Israel.

Jesus said that he and his disciples will judge the twelve tribes because he was sent only to Israel.

Jesus, when he assigned the work, directed the twelve disciples each to a tribe in Israel and not to go beyond Israel as in Matt 10v5-6 because his assignment is limited, he was sent to only Jews

Also from the Holy Quran

Quran 3v49: and (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel….

Quran 43v59: he (Jesus) was naught but a servant on whom we bestowed favour and we made him an example for the children of Israel.

Quran 3v61: but whoever dispute with you in this matter concerning Jesus after what has come to you of knowledge, then say : come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

~ He would be held in honour both in this world and in the Hereafter

I laugh when christians ignore part of the quran that speaks truth but always quick at taking some verses without reading through the whole verses to grab the meaning.

Muhammed too was honoured in this world and would be done same too in the Hereafter when no OTHER PROPHETS even Jesus will be able to intercede on man's behalf but only him. Now let us see verses where same is used for John the Baptist:


Quran 19 v 12-15: (And it was said unto his son): O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And we gave him wisdom when a childAnd piety (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout, and kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious.

So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!

~ that the verse (سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21 v. 91) was
not to the HOUR of JUDGEMENT only; but also to the PRESENT

Read explanations up to avoid repetition.

~ as such, people were to BELIEVE in HIM - both in the time of:
this world and in the Hereafter

I tire for you, so you dont know that the verse in question is making reference to you christians, oya read:


Quran 4 v 157:
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not


Se u dey see?


v158:
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise

v 159:
YUSUFALI: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them


Did you see that dear?


Oya read again:

quran 4 v 171:
YUSUFALI: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

v 172:
YUSUFALI: Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).

Self explanatory huh.

@pilgrim

Like I said in one of my posts, sending m,any posts at time when one has not not yet been answered will not help you and it shows that you are trying a sort of cover-up. Please give it to me one at a time we iron it out and not posting many posts at a time.

If you are ready for that, I am equally ready.

@pilgrim


@babs787,

Keep confusing yourself with "I am not surprised at your denial. . it won't work with me". Sorry, you're latecomer - the denial of Ibn Abbas has worked with you - DEAL with IT!! See the verse you're noising about in my rejoinder to mdsocks otiose remarks above. Did you guys sit down to think of the huge IMPLICATION of Ibn Abbas' directly questioning the very same thing that Muhammad claimed Allah revealed to him?

Let me ask you a question, please if the Quran was questioned earlier, please havent they accepted the 'divine revelation'

The simple point is this: Ibn Abbas should have shut his trap - rather than QUESTION what Allah spoke to Muhammad.

I think you need to learn and stop picking anything out of contexts because it has not been helping you.

Since you claimed that Ibn Abbas questioned what Allah spoke, please is Ibn Abbas still a muslim and please if he is, why hasnt he left that religion and the message since he questioned the authenticity of same. You can see that you are confused

If it is okay for Ibn Abbas to directly question Muhammad that way, then it is okay for every single verse of the Qur'an to be questioned. If you can't take it, then open your eyes and see the huge IMPLICATIONS of Ibn Abbas' query to Muhammad.

I think that you are still confusing yourself. If Abbas did and your interpretation goes along with his, then why is still with that religion?" Another confusion



Sorry, my detailed rejoinders were to show how you have failed to provide a single verse for the single question I asked. Don't cry over it - wake up and be honest enough to post the verse from the Qur'an to the question: WHERE did Allah ever refer to Muhammad as "THE SPIRIT"?!?


Dear, your explanation on the verse refering to Holy spirit has been refuted. If another spirit is coming while one has been existence, how many spirit are having together and please if you are still confused with regards to that verse, Jesus made a very straight forward statement that 'another comforter', how will holy spirit replace human spirit and still be another comforter when the one (Jesus) being talked about is human spirit and he made us known that another comforter, which means that another like him would come. So how does holy spirit fits into that, Is holy spirit like Jesus, is holy spirit human being. Keep confusing yourself my dear.

As for the denials - keep living in the bloviates of the companions of Muhammad: it's not mine to worry about, it's yours to cry boohoo over.

Cherio.

We hear you, no be today

@pilgrim

@babs787,

I decided to bring the one question of your interpretation of "The Spirit" for Muhammad from John's Gospel chapters 14 through 16. Whatever verses you have tried previously to interprete for your assertion that they could be referring to none other than Muhammad, we'd be neatly and carefully examining your claims here - instead of littering several threads with the same things on the subject for which you have not provided answers.

I think you are the one beating about the bush trying to put holy spirit where it does not belong. Since you refused to accept my explanation base on same, let me open another door for fresh explanation and I hope your eyes will be opened to the truth.

Now please Jesus mentioned another comforter meaning that he was a comforter and saying another comforter implies that the comforter (another) will come after his demise and would be like him. Jesus weas referring to human spirit and not your holy spirit which you have been trying to fit into that verse.

Put in another way, how many spirits does christian have when we know that the spirit has been in exsistence since the creation of heaven and earth, coming to preach another holy spirit is glaring "fallacy'. The verse is not for the holy spirit and I am asking you to provide your prrof it same referred to Holy Spirit and please when you do that, kindly supply what Holy spirit has been telling you aside what Jesus said.

Before I repeat the simple question, I'd like to set Mr olabowale straight on something which touches on Qur'an 21:91; then I'll come back to provide answers to your latest rejoinders on this same issue.

Okay.

@pilgrim

If Muhammad had received a "divine revelation" from Allah to obey an injunction, and then Muhammad's companion questions that very injunction, we can then see the gaps in what Muslims want people to believe is a "revelation" from God.

Can I have the verses where same was questioned. I am not even surprised at your denial and please it wont work with babs, trying to turn a verse/chapter upside wont work, let us sit down to business. Now when Jesus was given the message, did his people believe in Him and did they not doubt his work. Please this issus of Muhammad, didnt his companions accepted his messengershiup and his revelation, be honest to yourself o.

Your opening paragraph already told me where you were heading. Sad as it is, the Qur'an should then be jettisoned if Muslims feel that the best way to evaluate the word of God is to abandon what He has revealed on the excuses that the Qur'an is "newer" and the "latest". It would simply mean that after more than 15 centuries, the Qur'an has lost its vitality.

It hasnt and will never do that. I have responded above, and if you are still worried about the companions, hope you still remember that these companions came with the idea of bringing the Quran together when they were losing the memorizers to wars. If they never believed and doubted it, common, they wouldnt have done such a thing.

Babs, you don't use such fallacies to from men who lack integrity to argue a positive point. If that is what appeals to you, nothing really has changed in the inconsistencies Muslims so love to parade.

We have really seen who has been parading. Making denials with lenthy spurious posts yet couldnt defend what you have been claiming.

Regards.

Takia

@davidylan

lol all these "giving of revelation" is a muslim ruse. Jesus Christ said . . . He came to FULFILL the existing law NOT to bring a new law or abolish the old law. You hypocrites should carry your "revelation given to Jesus" nonsense to your quran study sessions.

Where is Pilgrim abi na cgift to bail you out? Are you saying that he was not given the "gospel"?

The book of Mathew was written by Mathew, Luke by Dr. Luke e.t.c. Jesus did not come with any books. Even if He did where are they? Did allah claim to have sent them down and confirmed them? Such crooks.

Please if he was noit given any book, how come the gospel? When you supply the answers, we will go to view the authenticity of those authors and compare with original manuscript

Read please on the mischief of your people with regards to the revelation given to same:

NQuraN 5 V 13 : "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."

Also

Quran 5 v 41: "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."





@cgift

They are poles apart just like the East is far from the West.

You meant christians?

@davidylan

lol all these "giving of revelation" is a muslim ruse. Jesus Christ said . . . He came to FULFILL the existing law NOT to bring a new law or abolish the old law. You hypocrites should carry your "revelation given to Jesus" nonsense to your quran study sessions.

Where is Pilgrim abi na cgift to bail you out? Are you saying that he was not given the "gospel"?

The book of Mathew was written by Mathew, Luke by Dr. Luke e.t.c. Jesus did not come with any books. Even if He did where are they? Did allah claim to have sent them down and confirmed them? Such crooks.

Please if he was noit given any book, how come the gospel? When you supply the answers, we will go to view the authenticity of those authors and compare with original manuscript

Read please on the mischief of your people with regards to the revelation given to same:

NQuraN 5 V 13 : "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."

Also

Quran 5 v 41: "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."





@cgift

They are poles apart just like the East is far from the West.

You meant christians?

@cgift

Oh! So your prophet did not know "the bible was going to be corrupted in the future" and still referred you to it. He was sure too blind and could not see beyond his nose. Else he would have told you not to bother. Your duplicity will only portray you as being unintelligent mind you.

Now I think you need to buckle up with regards to religious knowledge. I was once a christian like so, please do calm down and open your eyes to see the truth.

Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!'

Quran 7v 157 states: "Those who follow the Messenger [Muhammad], the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good and prohibits them from what is bad; He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honor him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him- it is they who will prosper."

We Muslims believe that Allah Almighty did send the Torah to the Jews, but they then corrupted this Holy Message; "We (Allah) certainly gave the Book To Moses, but differences arose therein: had it not been That a Word had gone forth Before from thy Lord, the matter Would have been decided Between them: but they Are in suspicious doubt Concerning it. (Quran, 11 v 110)"

The original Message of the Torah was still around during Muhammad's time. But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message. Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems. They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe. That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them. A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out. That is why "differences arose therein, " Allah Almighty promised hell to those Jews who caused the corruption of the Original Torah; "Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews] conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know not the Book but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran 2 v 77-79)"

Some Christians believe that the Bible was documented 150 years after Jesus. Others believe it took 300 years. In either case, the gap is too big and no Christian can guarantee accuracy. That is why you read in their current books and Gospels things such as "And Jesus said to Matthew, " instead of "And Jesus said to me [Matthew], " and so on. Cases similar to this example literally exist in most of the New Testament of today, where they prove that the New Testament was not even written by its original authors. It was written by third party people, and their words are considered today the Word of GOD, which is wrong and sinful. The Christian sects also believe in different number of Gospels when you compare them to each others. The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc

You are gasping for breathe ehn? Jesus himself talked about the need to pay tithes in th New Testament. Dont be ridiculous bro. You are known for denials, I know you are no longer at ease with your blood thirsty prophet. But that is what he was, history cannot b re-written.

With regards to the issue of being blood thirty, please do we say Moses and Old Testament God are also terrorist? Please can I have the tithe as said by Jesus in the NT?

Base thinking. You can't understand. Islam is canst because it draws inspiration from OT. You will never understand th mysteries of the killings in the OT even if I take time to explain them to you. So revel in your sword-suasion of your white skinned, red-haired prophet.

Why not explain if you are so sure of yourself. Read my question with regards to the killings perpetrated by Moses and OT God. I am still asking you, was Jesus given the revelation from matthew to revelation?

Of what usefulness is that ugly question? Are you seeking for legitimacy of the foul nature the 'prophethood (indeed)' of Mohammad or the moon-god, chief god allah of the arabians you worship?

I am just asking and waiting for your response and without muich a-do, you would have known that the updated one that came last would be the correct one because it talks on the previous one (bible)

@ifyalways

Insert Quote
babs 787 please do open another thread for your arguments please.its really called for now.this forum is meant for CHILDREN OF GOD to discuss and edify themselves and not for some arguments please.i beg you with Gods name .

Sorry sister. I never meant to post anything here but responded when I read Davidylan and some apologist's mischief. Please carry on with your discussion.

SHALOM

SALAM

@cgift

Judaism existed in the Old Testament based grossly on the LAW and anchored by the prophets
Christainity is of the New Testament basd primariliy on GRACE and anchored by the Son of God himself.

I tire for you apologist o. Is it not in your bible where Jesus said that he didnt come to annul that law but to fulfil it. I wonder why christian shift from OT when issues are mentioned therein but quick at citing that of tithe from the same OT. Na wa for una oooo

If Islam refers to the Old Testament to justify its muderious and barbaric actions, it shows that Islam is an archaic religion because the owners of the book has since left that platform to a more glorious one in the New Testament.

Are you referring to Moses and other prophets that fought in wars? Mind you, Moses was given the Injil and Torah for Jesus and not your OT and NT which you couldnt defend its authenticity. Was Jesus given the book of matthew to revelation?

I tire for people like don o. The Quran lends credence to the Bible shikena! It said that if you have doubts about mO's sayings, you should cmfirm from the christains. So, be true t yourself for just once: if there is a discrepancy between the two, which should give way? Answer the kweshun.

Answer the question yourself, is it the bible that was compiled before the Quran or Quran that came after it?

@david


Islam is the Noah's ark of today, embark on it and be saved.

@pilgrim

@Olabowale,

So, just what exactly is your nightmare about quoting from any part of the Bible when your own brethren were busy claiming that the Injil (Gospel) is lost - and yet they have been sweating hard to find Muhammad in the Gospel of John?


You are still confused abi. Dont worry, the truth has been very glaring but its only God that directs.

Please was Jesus given the gospel or Nt

Is the book of matthew to revelation part of the revelation given to Jesus?

@pilgrims

Although the Trinity is a difficult concept for Muslims to grasp, does it help you to be derisive and sarcastic at Christians just because you don't understand anything in the Biblical faiths?

Really, common you couldnt provide answers to trinity when asked and if you are claiming that you have done so, are you prepared for same on trinity?

Muhammad said this and that and the other. . . Can't you guys throw this childish talk away and grab your own Qur'an to read?!? So, Muhammad said so and so and so and so, dah-da-dah-da! And on top of that, Muhammad said Jesus was not a universal prophet, but only to the children of Israel alone, bah?

Na the same Muhammad talk this in the Qur'an, سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21, Verse 91:

"And (remember) her who guarded her chastity:

We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her

and her son a sign for all peoples

That is in your Qur'an!! Please let all this false claims stop.

I have now seen that you have no knowledge of the Quran. Jesus will be the sign of the last hour and when you see him, know that the hour has come. Read the below verse for understanding.


Quran 43 v 61: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgement): Therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: This is a Straight Way"

You haven't been able to demonstrate sanely any of the following with regards to John 14 and 16 --

(a) that the verses that speak of the Spirit was not in reference to the Holy Spirit

I have provided detailed explanation but its you that has not been able to defend what you are claiming.

(b) that they could have been referring to Muhammad in any way.

I gave you instances where they referred to Muhammed and not HOLY SPIRIT as christians have been thinking. The holy spirit has been in existence before Jesus and for him to have said another comforter, the comforter would surely be like him and not spirit as you are thinking. I still need you explanation om why the verse is referrign to Holy spirit.

(c) that you had a clear understanding of WHO the Holy Spirit is

I do but its you that is confusing yourself with that world. Christian world call spirits, evil, demon, etc but Islam has different words for spirit depending on the kind of spirit in question. Now for understanding, we have Jinn, angels, spirits. So it depends on the one you are referring to.

Maybe you should tell me all you know about spirit and I will give you Islamic view on same and types that we have.



(d) the fact that NO Muslim scholar ever refers to Muhammad as "the Spirit"


Funny how how you try to twist verse to fit your own ideas without proper analyses of same. I am still telling you that the verses made no reference to holy spirit. Another comforter cannot be holy spirit and I showed you a verse where spirit was used for human being.

When you have had a huge silence in the face of facts presented to you, you would only wish to claim that pilgrim.1 has been "cornered". My question is: BY WHO - you?!? Please don't make me laugh!

Now I will still present it to you in case you deliberately ignored it. Bros Adebowale told you that Jesus never read the bible and you provided a verse where he read the BOOK OF ELIAS, I asked you if

a. the bible is the same as the book of Elias

b. If he was given the bible or Gospel?

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:02:19 PM
You havent done that. You may assist your brother in answering my questions: was He "crucified' In JERUSALEM or outside and please what was his age when he was "crucified"?

If you want answers, I'll give them to you - I have always done that. But if you would keep playing this games of NEVER providing answers to the questions that are presented to you, then it's high time you woke up from your rude gimmicks.

Please provide your answers

Babs787, I asked you a series of questions on the thread dealing with your presuppositions of Muhammad in John 14 & 16. Go over to that thread and deal with those questions; then I will oblige you answers to the queries on the Crucifixion.

I thought you have been reading posts but funny how you claimed tgat you have provided explanation when your supposed explanation have been refuted, your claim has no basis

Meanwhile, you could start here with the same question on the subject:

In the Qur'an we read the following in Sura 4 v. 157:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary,
the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,
but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein
are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture
to follow, for of a surety they killed him not"

Okay

Two questions:

(1) could you explain what is meant by the highlighted parts of that Sura?

You didnt highlight anything

(2) WHO was put on that Cross as a substitute that Muslims have claimed?

My question go again, if they crucified someone and the person didnt die on the cross, will you still call that "crucifixion"?

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:02:19 PM
Now let me ask you same question I asked your brother, if they "crucified" someone and he didnt die on the cross, do you still call that "crucifixion"?

Ba

bs, WHO was put on that Cross?

You havent answered my question baby pilgrim.

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:02:19 PM
Provide answers and others will follow
This is the same LAZY scholarship of donces like Zakir who never answer questions and then duck them with 'provide answers and others will follow'. When have you ever answered a simple question, Babs?

I have known you to always ignore the issue and picking at what is immaterial. If you have any issue with Zakir, you may consult him wherever he is but lets face nairaland and attend to the issue at hand. Please provide answers to the issue of Jesus reading the bible and not book of Elias, also provide answer to the question on crucifixion.

When you settle down to reason, we can progress anything you think you might have to present. Otherwise, you may as well play this game and confirm that Muslims simply have nothing worth calling intelligence.

I am aware of your childlish approach to issue when cornered and it wont work with me, please was Jesus given the bible and did he read same or book of Elias?

@pilgrims

Although the Trinity is a difficult concept for Muslims to grasp, does it help you to be derisive and sarcastic at Christians just because you don't understand anything in the Biblical faiths?

Really, common you couldnt provide answers to trinity when asked and if you are claiming that you have done so, are you prepared for same on trinity?

Muhammad said this and that and the other. . . Can't you guys throw this childish talk away and grab your own Qur'an to read?!? So, Muhammad said so and so and so and so, dah-da-dah-da! And on top of that, Muhammad said Jesus was not a universal prophet, but only to the children of Israel alone, bah?

Na the same Muhammad talk this in the Qur'an, سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21, Verse 91:

"And (remember) her who guarded her chastity:

We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her

and her son a sign for all peoples

That is in your Qur'an!! Please let all this false claims stop.

I have now seen that you have no knowledge of the Quran. Jesus will be the sign of the last hour and when you see him, know that the hour has come. Read the below verse for understanding.


Quran 43 v 61: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgement): Therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: This is a Straight Way"

You haven't been able to demonstrate sanely any of the following with regards to John 14 and 16 --

(a) that the verses that speak of the Spirit was not in reference to the Holy Spirit

I have provided detailed explanation but its you that has not been able to defend what you are claiming.

(b) that they could have been referring to Muhammad in any way.

I gave you instances where they referred to Muhammed and not HOLY SPIRIT as christians have been thinking. The holy spirit has been in existence before Jesus and for him to have said another comforter, the comforter would surely be like him and not spirit as you are thinking. I still need you explanation om why the verse is referrign to Holy spirit.

(c) that you had a clear understanding of WHO the Holy Spirit is

I do but its you that is confusing yourself with that world. Christian world call spirits, evil, demon, etc but Islam has different words for spirit depending on the kind of spirit in question. Now for understanding, we have Jinn, angels, spirits. So it depends on the one you are referring to.

Maybe you should tell me all you know about spirit and I will give you Islamic view on same and types that we have.



(d) the fact that NO Muslim scholar ever refers to Muhammad as "the Spirit"


Funny how how you try to twist verse to fit your own ideas without proper analyses of same. I am still telling you that the verses made no reference to holy spirit. Another comforter cannot be holy spirit and I showed you a verse where spirit was used for human being.

When you have had a huge silence in the face of facts presented to you, you would only wish to claim that pilgrim.1 has been "cornered". My question is: BY WHO - you?!? Please don't make me laugh!

Now I will still present it to you in case you deliberately ignored it. Bros Adebowale told you that Jesus never read the bible and you provided a verse where he read the BOOK OF ELIAS, I asked you if

a. the bible is the same as the book of Elias

b. If he was given the bible or Gospel?

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:02:19 PM
You havent done that. You may assist your brother in answering my questions: was He "crucified' In JERUSALEM or outside and please what was his age when he was "crucified"?

If you want answers, I'll give them to you - I have always done that. But if you would keep playing this games of NEVER providing answers to the questions that are presented to you, then it's high time you woke up from your rude gimmicks.

Please provide your answers

Babs787, I asked you a series of questions on the thread dealing with your presuppositions of Muhammad in John 14 & 16. Go over to that thread and deal with those questions; then I will oblige you answers to the queries on the Crucifixion.

I thought you have been reading posts but funny how you claimed tgat you have provided explanation when your supposed explanation have been refuted, your claim has no basis

Meanwhile, you could start here with the same question on the subject:

In the Qur'an we read the following in Sura 4 v. 157:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary,
the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,
but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein
are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture
to follow, for of a surety they killed him not"

Okay

Two questions:

(1) could you explain what is meant by the highlighted parts of that Sura?

You didnt highlight anything

(2) WHO was put on that Cross as a substitute that Muslims have claimed?

My question go again, if they crucified someone and the person didnt die on the cross, will you still call that "crucifixion"?

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:02:19 PM
Now let me ask you same question I asked your brother, if they "crucified" someone and he didnt die on the cross, do you still call that "crucifixion"?

Ba

bs, WHO was put on that Cross?

You havent answered my question baby pilgrim.

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:02:19 PM
Provide answers and others will follow
This is the same LAZY scholarship of donces like Zakir who never answer questions and then duck them with 'provide answers and others will follow'. When have you ever answered a simple question, Babs?

I have known you to always ignore the issue and picking at what is immaterial. If you have any issue with Zakir, you may consult him wherever he is but lets face nairaland and attend to the issue at hand. Please provide answers to the issue of Jesus reading the bible and not book of Elias, also provide answer to the question on crucifixion.

When you settle down to reason, we can progress anything you think you might have to present. Otherwise, you may as well play this game and confirm that Muslims simply have nothing worth calling intelligence.

I am aware of your childlish approach to issue when cornered and it wont work with me, please was Jesus given the bible and did he read same or book of Elias?

@pilgrim


@babs787,

Was that meant to be a joke to hide behind another excuse?

Now brother Olabowale told you that Jesus never read the bible and you supplied a verse where he read the book of Elias, please is book Elias the bible? Did Jesus read the bible and please was He given same?

Babs, you no dey shame? Are you not old enough to keep playing this game of "oya answer me" when indeed you always scoot off a question and would never seek to address any issue until you 'tiff' material to plagiarize and call it YOUR OWN?

Read the question up please

On what exactly?

I no fit laugh o. Read my first response to your post up. You claimed that Jesus read the bible but the verse you supplied has book of Elias, now is book of Elias same as bible?

Well, it's unfortunate that I'll be off for a while. But I'll pop in after my exams and see the rough play you've been up to in my absence.

You will have to ignore your exams so that you will have enough time to respond to my posts .

@pilgrim

Where is babs787? Perhaps he might help you with his usual twister to interpret the title "Messiah" as applicable to "ALL PROPHETS". I dey wait!!

I am not surprised at your response whenever you are cornered. I only added that as part of my explanation to John 14 v16 in which you claimed referred to Holy Spirit.





Please, mr babs787. . . HOW MANY times do you have to go over this same issue that has been thrashed and done with?


You havent done that. You may assist your brother in answering my questions: was He "crucified' In JERUSALEM or outside and please what was his age when he was "crucified"?

I'm still waiting for your answer to the simple question that was offered you in one of the threads in that regards:

WHO was put as a substitute on the Cross instead of Jesus - as Muslims claim?

Now let me ask you same question I asked your brother, if they "crucified" someone and he didnt die on the cross, do you still call that "crucifixion"?

Just ponder on that carefully - if you're here scooting off from thread to thread on the same issue.

Provide answers and others will follow

Cheers.

U too.

@davidylan


I never meant to come to christian thread but decided to when I saw big brother's Id. Let me quickly address your confusion.

Quote from: olabowale on October 25, 2007, 09:42 PM
Did any of the preachers this past week, tell you why the son of Abraham was willing to lay his life on the line for his father to slaughter him? While the christian lord and savior and son of god was not, willingly without the dragging of his feet? We all know that he was dragged to his death, according to the Bible.

You mohammedans are a bunch of roundabout charlatans. First you say that Jesus Christ was not crucified next you are here pretending to be confused over His being "dragged" to his death.

Now please davidylan, what do you understand by "crucifixion". To a layman, crucifixion is when they nailed/tied someone to a cross/stake and the person died on same. If they decide to kill a person by crucifying him and the person did not die on the cross, will you still say that "he was crucified" based on the meaning of that word? Ponder on that please. Also was he "crucified" in Jerusalem and kindly provide the age he was "crucified"


Thanks