₦airaland Forum

@ babs787

In all honesty i have not seen any on the posts or topics. It is in here i learnt of the hadyth or whats it called that apart from the Koran there is a book on the lifestyle of mohammed, i have had muslim friends for years and never knew there was a difference with the books, i am not one to go in search of what another calls truth. I have a personal relationship with my God and if another claims he has found salvation, it is my duty to share the gospel and love of Jesus and if he rejects it i move on, i am not the one to convict the hearts of men.

But when his faith has consistently affected others in their secular lives constantly exhibiting babaric practices in a civilised environment that is never condemned or challenged by his brethren, only offering apologies and sympathies for his actions, i will ask questions where do you get such an ideology from and thats what i have asked muslims in here and getting responses like "the handling of Koran is a very delicate issue i don't want to sin"  what rubbish, that suggest to me that the girl in question didnt want to sin and raised the alarm, i ask is that what she was taught?

Based on the silence i then postulated that it is the influences that your type has received that has led to a bit of tolerance in your views can you convincily say that if you didnt have the western influence you will be this way. I dare say if i never had the influence only esposed to christain doctrine i will be more peaceful, tolerant and almost docile because the rudiments teaches a calm and gentle approach to all issues.

mycc:
fuji music originated by muslims and should not come to church, what do u think ?

Can you actually substantiate that claim because i don't know of northern muslims playing fuji and i know a lot of Yoruba christains & muslims alike that cherish the music. You may want to rephrase your statement and provide a bit of justification.

babs787:
@stimulus

Funny how you people preach what you can't defend.

You have been saying that Jesus was killed and crucified and still saying it. The thread 'was jesus crucified' is on and I have not been seeing your input there. I need your input to the questions or better still the issue can be addressed here depending on how you want it.

We will also shed light on the only sign of Jonah as given by Jesus.

Also, we will know if really jesus rose on the third day and fulfilled the prophecy of Jonah.
Take care.

@ babs787 is this supposed to be a joke. At the last count there was a thread on the teacher in Gombe that no muslim has ventured to go near, "people preach what they cant defend" oh referring to yourself , are you , You should be hiding in here, such effrontary , Gosh

drixie:
@buluti, babyosisi, davidylan
since u guys have already made up your minds about islam, i don't think i need to offer answers or explanations as they will still be ridiculed. I actually wanted to pass across what islam truly is to u but it seems like those questions were asked just to get answers u would still pounce on and make mockery of Islam. Also, particularly at babyosisi - i am not a sunni, not a shi'a, not a wahabbi. I am a muslim. I am proud be a muslim and to be called muslim. and i wont hide my face when muslims are called to stand up for no reason whatsoever.

@ drixie you were obviously not confortable answering the question and i made a postulation that until proved otherwise it was clear that the fundamentals of the islamic religion does not suggest peace. You have decided to do that which you knew you were always going to do, keep quiet.

It is of no importance what people say, people would always talk and ridicule, it is up to you to decide to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Koran doesnt encourage the acts so that when people ridicule they would look stupid, the silence of muslims in here towards the desecration question leaves much to be desired and suggest there is something to hide.

So please the piece you wrote is really not convincing.

davidylan:
This is exactly my position, we have had enough of "moderate" muslims merely coming to "condemn" the atrocities of the "extremist minority". It is time for concrete action.

@ davidlyan none of the muslims, even drixie has condemned the act, none of them has said in clear terms that it was wrong or that the students werent acting according to the instructions of the Koran, all they keep doing is sympathising read their statements properly. Let the muslims speak in clear language condemn the act, say it is not what the Koran says they should do, and show from the Koran that it doesnt say kill when the holy book is desecrated until then it is just a PRO charade.

[I just wonder where the known islamic scholars who have been teaching islam such as babs787 and mukina2 are, they should have these answers on their finger tips. 

drixie:
Also, I can't just sit down at my computer and explain things like this. The subject matter of the desecration of the holy quran is a sensitive topic with which i have to converse with people, study the hadith and fatwa. I would be committing sin if make any statements contradicting the hadith.
Also, killings are equally not sanctioned in the Quran and neither should they be done in the name of Allah.

In response to your quote above it is not my intention to make you sin, so if its too dificult a subject you can leave it honestly.

But if you ask me this is where the problem lies no matter the sensitivity of a topic in religion people should be free to express themselves, such is the degree of fear in the muslims that no muslim apart from you has attempted to say anything.

Am sure you have read christain debates in here and seen were fellow christains tell others to chill when they bring the "i can't talk" attitude because of judgement and sin, am so shocked that there is no single muslim who can venture out, logically then i really shouldnt be surprised at the behaviours exhibited by the "extremist" i.e. the killings and babaric behaviour , using the muslims in here as a sub sample analysing their behaviour tells me already that it is the level of exposure and perhaps education that has created restrain in them when it comes to core islamic issues, u guys are civilised. mukina2 forexample is an arsenal fan that tells of the influence that has helped shaped her opinions.

Contrast with the semi illiterate and not so enlightened islamic student eg those that have attended ONLY koranic schools with no exposure or external influence they would logically lack the restraint you guys exhibit until it can be shown otherwise i cannot agree with the notion that ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE it just can't be.  And also it is unfair to label the uneducated "extremist" just because they have not had the opportunities you guys have had, they are just following instructions, they don't know better.

My conclusion is based on the fact that if you consider other faiths that the followers lack exposure as well i.e. reverend fathers that from child hood have only been in catholic schools through to the seminary till they get ordained, they don't act VIOLENTLY, i have met hindu monks from India that it was their first time ever outside India and the Hindu temple they were born, educated and lived their lifes in the hindu temple, their simplicity to life, kindness and opinions baffled me that i called myself a born again christain.

davidylan:
@ 4play
Have no fear. Islam is a religion of "peace", it is only the "extremist minority" trying to give it a bad name.

David put more accuratedly it is the "so called "moderate muslims that are in the minority while the extremist are the majority.

In an exam am sure you answer a question with a question? Thats really intelligent.

Its not mandatory to answer my question, you guys are supposed to be teaching and enlightening on Islam, you can ask me another question you hear. The islamic definition of the word "brother" seems to require rocket science.

@ mukina2 and drixie please i need a very clear answer.

According to the Koran what should be done to an infidel that desecrates it? If possible give quotations from the Koran

I have read you guys statements removing the political angle introduced all you guys have presented is sympathy theres been no clear condemation of the acts.

Can a muslim in here please tell me what it is that no infidel can touch "your" Koran. I want to understand.

Will i able able to hear the statement if an infidel touches MY Koran what is the big deal, i will just take it and move on or let me present an extreme case a christain groundnut seller tears one of the pages of my Koran to sell groundunt in the midst of other muslims can i just take my Koran express my displeasure or demand for a new one or something and move on, what will be your response in accordance with the teaching of the Koran.

ireke:
Rev. King was denounced by almost everyone that matters in Christendom (in naija). He has been sentenced to death.
If criminals - christian or muslim fundamentalists - know that the law can bite, they will think twice before they do evil. But unfortunately, the law will never bite until the gluttons that are ruling us leave trivialities alone and devote time to governance.

My point exactly where is the muslim hierarchy, there has been no official statement since the incidence from the Sultan or Adegbite condeming the acts, and it is the same world wide the leadership doesnt condem they give reasons for the acts.

Whilst i agree with you on the issue of governance and the law enforcement being inadequate thats an issue for another thread, we take that as a constant here and are trying to ensure that we can live together religiously in harmony, the law enforcement cant combat crime. Its not acceptable yes but thats an issue for another thread.

kebab:
i just read the editorial in the punch newspapers
and at times like this, i most certainly do not want to be a muslim or be associated with ISLAM.
its really a sad sad story
and it amazes me how some people can take a life that they didnot and can never create.

Its not consoling to know there are still muslims like you. Have you been reading the thread. What is you opinion on the issue, at times like this you don't want to be associated with islam but do you see anything wrong in killing or stoning a christain to death because she touched the Quoran (if she did). Please speak directly and strongly am tired of all this "moderate muslims" who politically oppose violence but don't stand up and be counted.

If i may ask what does the Quoran say abount "an infidel" touching the Quoran. I think the anlaysis of this thread and islam should start form there.

@ babs787 who is your brother? can you please define.

@ babs787 I and am sure most christains in here condem in very strong terms the actions of Rev. King, he was not acting on the teachings of christainity and that is the reason why he was reported by his followership. Being civilised law abiding citizens not taking law into their hands he was handed to the appropriate authorities and the law has taking its course he has been sentenced accordingly.

When any christain does anything wrong we are not apologist we condem in strong terms and ensure accountability and adequate punishement is given, please note it was his members that reported him.

You talk of God of the OT, what are you observing today do you see his offspring behave in irresponsible and violent ways, please if you have nothing to say tell us.

I wish i could say the same for your faith?

I am just getting to read the actual account of this story and what NONSENSE. If at the tender age Allah Akhbar means it is time to kill someone when these ones grow older what do we expect.

I think enough of the debates in here from a logial point this story ALONE provides an accurate picture of the islamic religion, i wonder where the notion of Islam is a peaceful religion originated from, its not just logical or possible.

Would apologist call the little girl extremist or the other students in the school, the problem is the teachings (instructions in their faith) they had received, it called for violence and death when an "infidel" touches the Quoran, it really beats my imagination little girls i just wonder what the future holds for these ones, if at that age they can exhibit babaric tendencies.

I am convinced that it is the teachings of Islam that is causing this nonsense, to prove this you wont hear the sultan or any muslim leader condem the act in strong terms (they can't go against their faith), how can we be convinced otherwise?

http://www.christianpersecution.info/news/nigeria-muslims-club-christian-teacher-to-death/

mukina2 can you please read this story and give a statement.

mukina2:
the actions of few must not be taken to judge all .
Muslims are not the only ones doing evil things in the world .

I quite agree with you but not when the action of the few is condoned and not strongly condemed by the "moderate" muslims. Muslims all over the world don't do evill things, what do you call the acts of 9/11, 7/7 and the recent attempts on lives in the UK. I guess those are "Allahs will" and does not count as evil things.

Your view of islam seems to centre around what is obtainable in Saudi Arabia and other islamic countires, bad enough these countires don't allow other forms of religion (intolerance). But the true reflection of Islam should be  in mixed societies, the intolerance and bigotry is extreme.

If truly you are against the violence of the extremist muslim then speak in very clear terms against it and let the imams and the muslim leadership speak in clear terms and not make politically correct statements.

loyika in my opinion "webometrics" does not constitute a good basis for ranking, maybe it is an indicator but not a good one.

You are dragging this issue i dont know any agency that concentrates on rating African Universities. You have stated the problem of data so really its all a matter of perception if you ask me.

My arguement is not that Univeristy of Zimbabwe or south african univeristies are not rated high but its an issue of perception.

Times used to have world rankings and at the last count no african univeristy was in the top 500 i think, if you have the world rankings you would see African Universities on it, these SA univerisities might be rated highly there i dont know but using webometrics would skew the results.

loyika but you can still try ,

Again the ranking used by the British firms would be based on certain criterias which i doubt web content would be part of, if i am to choose a rating to follow since everyone claims their universities are the best i have to choose a rating agency that uses relevant criterias.

My point again University of Zimbabwe might be good in your opinion but the ranking you provided cannot be used to substantiate that opinion.

loyika I quite understand your view, in parts i agree with you and appreciate that you have details of things others might not based on your personal experience and insight. But i maintain that facts remain even in politics but since its human behoaviour capturing these facts accurately tend to be a difficult exercise in contrast is "old women tales" which people make up.

My personal opinion on Mugabe as many African leaders is simple its all about incompetence, they really don't know what to do even if they want to and lest i forget selfishness.

Your arguement on intelligence suggest intelligence is a wrong virtue, what you are looking at is the rightness of the actions of intelligent people, thats has to do with morals and personal ethics not intelligence. My arguement is that intelligence should lead to competence. The list of people you gave are competent even the 419 guy is competent in that he can deceive his prey.

Mugabe is in-competent in that he has failed to deliver a prosperous Zimbabwe through his land reforms programme. Somehow we are saying the same thing i am just choosing a simple analysis.

@ Razor pls tell them,

But you know that politics is plenty talk, issues cant be brief like romance, thats also complicated but can be summarised in few words. Am not implyin anythin before you let out the venon.

loyika your arguement on Zimbabwe can be compared to Donzmans arguement, its all about personal perception and not facts. You even go as far as talking of Mandela/wife/Mugabe, Tony Blair, homosexuality bla bla and all. Whilst i agree that we should look at issues in its totality, you are bringing in "old women tales" into this arguement we cannot ascertain the veracity of those claims so please lets try and stick to facts.

You state that Mugabe is very intelligent more like crafty you mean compareable to our won IBB. An intelligent man is guided by his intelligence which Mugabe is currently not guided by. The issues are clear you are bringing too many angles to it, Land reforms and the antedant impact on the Zimbabwe economy.

The originator of the thread was off the opinion that Mugabe was celebrating when there was no reason to, the issue is that he should be ashamed, then Donzman is of the opinion that he should celebrate as he is taking difficult decisions the west are opposed to so its the west fault (see how your arguements are similar), blaming other people for the problem to Donzman its the west, to you its the war veterans in Zimbabwe, when would we as Africans learn.

I summarise by saying that Mugabe engaged on a reform (incompetency) he didnt understand for selfish reason (irrespective of Mbeki, Mandela etc), the result of such a reform has been catastrophic, it was not based on the interest of the country and as such the results would not be in the interest of the country. It has nothing to do with Pan-Africanism it was an insult to economics and all the principles. It was "fundamentally irresponsiple to engage on it the way he did.

@ loyika please i want to believe you are educated, you provide a ranking based on "web content" is this a joke, i took the quote below from their website and put the appropriate link by it.

"The ranking started in 2004 and is based on a combined indicator that takes into account both the volume of the Web contents and the visibility and impact of this web publications according to the number of external inlinks (sitations) they received" http://www.webometrics.info/index.html

IN my opinion this rankings do not give a true representation of the current situations in the universities, the criteria we should be looking at include funding of research, student/lecturer ratio, infrastructure-learning tools, library conditions (accessibility to current journals), quality of teaching staff, entry requirements, employability of graduates and so on the list is endless it depends on the rating agency and not based on some "web content", pls try and get the Times Higeher Education Supplement or any other such ratings then we can talk.

My position which you chose to ignore is what is their position in the world, we are celebrating mediocrity, theres no african univesity in the worlds top 100 so please lets keep mute.

Since you are Nigerian you should understand the Nigerian pecularity of many Universities chunning out millions of graduates each year that the economy cannot absorb. As i stated earlier its all about inconpetent leadership that cannot design policies that guarantee growth. You might choose to exalt a nation that has one University producing 2,000 graduates to a nation that has 100 universities but truth be told its the inconpetency of the leadership that cannot harness the strenths in any environment to provide meaningful development.

I agree with you on the unemployment but please you are quoting one extreme you havent spoken of the other well organised tests and their results. People get good jobs everyday in Nigeria, however while we look at it in percentage terms we realise the economy is not growing at the pace it should. So please drop that arguement its for another thread.

loyika:
1. Granted that the head of Industries and major owners of farms were white, this didn't stop Blacks employment rising. Unlike what pertains in Nigeria, the Average black Zimbabwean had a good education (University of Zimbabwe was in the top 5 African University rankings) and was guaranteed a good job. Now Donzman, most of the guys are in Europe and SA washing plates and doing menial jobs. Is that Progress!?

loyika how do you know what obtains in Nigeria? And what proof can you show that University of Zimbabwe was rated 5th in Africa, please what is it rated in the World ratings. A one eyed man can only boast to the blind, lets not be mediocres our Universities are far from what they should be.

I hope you didnt expect to get away with that on a forum with Nigerians,

Donzman your reasoning patter is why Africa is where it is today you totally misunderstand the issues at hand. The bigger picture is a just and prosperous society now and in the future for Zimbabwens.

Lets understand ourselves no one is saying land reforms are wrong, i agree the lands should be taken from the whites but HOW?. Has this reform led to better income distribution, please don't be deceived this structure would lead that nation to greater problems in future. Its similar to the Nigerian case in the 70's and 80's when all the reforms was designed to enrich a few, the distribution of income is so skewed how easy today has it been to wrestle power from the hands of those that control wealth.

It would help you to look at western behaviour as a constant (selfish and interest protection) and concentrate on the other variables how they can be manipulated to bring desired results. So in context you have a constant variable working against your prosperity and independence then you manipulate the others to greater income disparity, macro ecomonic disaster and a draconian society where there is no opposition what you have is Zimbabwe.

You seem to forget that the west didnt encourage China, yes the scenerios where different but those leaders manipulated the variable they could control to their advantage.

Now faced with a different scenerios African leaders cannot deliever truth be told African leaders are lazy intellectually and incompetent. You talk of Agriculture as if it is rocket science, what skills need to be acquired the country can't even produce enough to feed itself and you dare accuse the West is it the West stopping the crops from growing in Zimbabwe, Mugabe has ensured the competent enterpreneurs who may share opposite views are outside the picture. You really don't get this

You remind me of young naive political sciene students back in school, that don't understand issues in details.

I still don't get you?? are you saying ??

Backslider:
@TV01

There is a reason for ordinance and law. There is a reason for penalty also. All seek Justice.

Because we are saved by Grace we can not kill anyone however where I quoted tallies with where Brother Paul Lead by the holy Ghost says that we should mark them who cause division amongst us.

I can Quote a lot of Verses that support this

Jeremiah 14:14
Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Lamentations 2:14
Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment.

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

@ Backslider and your point is ??,

@ Donzman and other supporters of nationalism  there should be a mid-line between nationalism and economic prosperity. Whats the use of nationalism when it leads to poverty, starvation, lack and suffering.

The world is a global village and its unwise for any leader to decide to shut himself completely out, am not saying eat hook line and sinker western policies but that design policies that would work in your own peculiar situation which is the Chinese and asian experience.

No matter how you look at it Mugabe is wrong and has completely ruined his nation, whats the use of giving a car to someone that can't drive and the person is trekking while "an enemy" that can drive is right there. Why not tell the enemy how and where to drive to and even when to start the car and also to teach you and yours how to drive, policies are designed to achieve control.

The real issue is that Mugabe (as a lot of African leaders) is incompetent and selfish he lacks innovations and ideas and decided to play politics with the land issue enriching himself and his chronies, its all about insecurity in Africa, their thinking pattern is that tomorrow will be worse so let me steal as much as i can today for myself and generation yet unborn, clearly no will or plans to improve things, just noise.

Ideas rule the world even in politics, there are politicians in the western nations with the antedant selfish tendencies but they think of the greater good for country, emphasis on thinking.

@ Big B1, i really find it hard to rationalise your point, the statement as posted leaves much to be desired, for the state department to consider Chief Kalu a good leader then they should keep their opinions any one should be able to read within the lines.

America the epitome of democracy have had their times and definately George Bush has no moral grounds of talking of a free and fair election considering how he got into the white house in the first place.

Keeping to topic whilst i appreciate the concerns of the US ie the effect of a troubled Nigeria to the region and world it is not in America's place to tell us what to do, we are a sovereign nation capable of taking decisions for ourselves.

You seem to have a case so why not petition the EFCC and publish the petition on the dailies (Thisday, Guardian), put it in the public domain.

Just a website wont achieve nada, if the facts can be verified then forward a petition, even if nothing is done maybe becos of loyalty to Aso rock, a petition in public domain achieves a lot, but again you need to consider the technicalities am sure you can get a solicitor for free.

@ Seun please do you pay tax on your income?

At last peace on this thread,

babyosisi, bless you for playing the role of peacemaker,

goodguy:
Let's leave 'me' out of this for now. My reference to unbelievers there is solely based on the Scriptures - 1 Cor 14:22.

Now, my own question: You claim to speak in tongues. What I will like to know is this: Can/Do you interprete whatever you speak in tongues? If you can't/don't, have you ever prayed for the gift of Interpretation, as Paul admonished?

Based on your questions i would have to take your position, Lets leave "me" out of this for now, you have asked good questions though.

How i received the Holy spirit evidenced by the gift of speaking in tongues. My Experience.

I recall that the first occasion I was prayed with to receive the Holy Spirit was when I first responded to an alter call I really knew nothing about being a Christian. I didn’t speak in tongues on that occasion (first time), some did others didn't but most importantly I didn’t. I didn’t for a while after that, come to think of it I was always in and out of fellowship with God.

A while later after the first alter call I started asking questions, why haven’t I received the Holy Spirit? Am I not born again? Some Christians gave me reasons others could not, but hey it was my life and I was going to take it serious. I studied, looked for tapes, I really wanted to know the entire hullabaloo about this tongue issue, and I prayed earnestly to receive the gift not because of people but because I wanted anytin that would lead me closer to God. I always looked forward to the occasion in church and several times when it came I still wasn’t speakin nothing, but at least I was growing I knew there was nothing wrong with me, it went on for a while and still nothing no speaking in tongues for me.

After a while I relaxed I just went ahead with my christainity (still not serious, up and down), I joined an activity group and nobody pressured me or made me feel less spiritual rather I was encourages and I knew my leader was praying for me.

Time went on and I had to go to school so I left my local church, when in school I joined a fellowship and joined the intercession group (now I was getting serious with my christanity), I learnt so much about christanity in school boy I could believe God for almost anything, my faith was rising so much, it was during one of our night vigils (you know as students there's so much time on our hands we used to have vigils as we liked) that I came into the knowing and experiencing of this gift and many more.

During the prayers the leader just randomly said if you don't speak in tongues this is an opportunity for you to receive the gift but after all the hassle I had being through I went on praying in my understanding I just couldn’t be bothered but he stated it again that this is an opportunity and started speaking in tongues himself other members joined, I continued speaking my English but then something was different there was a leading in me to stop speaking english but what would I speak I asked myself??.

I spoke my English on, again it was like I was hearing a voice telling me to stop speaking English but still I refused. Then my leader came towards me and told me not to resist I should follow the leading of the holy spirit and speak what comes out, (I wasn’t going to be part of the blabbing so I really had to be sure) as if he knew my doubts he told me God was my father and wanted me to have this gift so I should speak and be bold then somehow I believed him faith rose in me and I stopped speaking english, at first nothing happened, but now I knew something was different I opened my mouth and started speaking I immediately stopped, !! wats happening here , !!but hey it was too late I couldn’t hold it back I had never felt the presence of God but this day I did, some members were screaming others were laughing and so on, wats all this about!!!, then manifestations a member raised her voice and then started speaking in tongues after a while she went quiet and some one else came and interpreted was she said. The second miracle to me (the first was i was already speaking in tongues), issues that had being disturbing me like I discussed my fears with them before coming, other messages for others I had a friend whose mum was sick and the sister interpreting who was in final year and didn’t know us gave a message on my friends mum and similar thins, instruction on what to do plenty things sha, I can't recollect now but it went on for a while. As we received messages for ourselves, we also received for the group, for our fellowship, i was actually in intercessions definately.

After the manifestation of the gift of speaking and interpretation of tongues , our meeting continued I was speakin boldly now but then I realised something in my heart I knew what to pray about, issues I needed to pray about for friends that had academic issues, some areas of my own studies, family members I would not ordinary remember and I was praying in tongues and in my understanding it was on and on, I was praying and remembering scriptures as I prayed it was an experience I really can't forget.

Post night vigil doubts came to my heart that it wont continue it was because of the members around me and all sort of lies the devil still didn’t give up, but hey when I was in my room and opened my mouth to pray english wasn’t doing it for me anymore, I must discover this my new gift to its fullest and I switched and no struggle I was praying in tongues smoothly when I prayed in english there was a difference now I knew my prayers had changed I knew things to pray about, things I never thot of before I started praying came to my mind in short things were different now.

That’s my experience so to me Christianity is not a story, it just can't be. HOW??. Jesus is alive, what I do observe from people stories on the issue of speaking in tongues is that if you pencil in your heart its not for me as in you don't seek to receive the gift, praying studying and expecting you might not receive, I used the word might beocs it doesn’t always work this way. In my walk with God I have come to learn a lot. God is God, he is the almighty.