₦airaland Forum

Hello (@ kobe), i think you might choose to take that up with the originator, but i think the title is not short in any way presenting the report.

I am always  glad to learn more but note that the HDI is a very basic measure. I hope you too would learn "something you did not know before" and appreciate the task we have of building Nigeria to Global recognition.

I don't know what report and what picture you are on about, but the HDI is accurate on the standard of living in Nigeria at that date.

Just out of curiosity in your own opinion what is the true picture of Nigeria?

@ kobe you can commend seun, but i think the question we should be asking is how accurate are these reports?

Agreed the true picture of Nigeria is not what you read on any UN report but what is on ground in Nigeria?

The data used to analyse and present these reports where obtained from Nigeria by the UN, they didnt go to the moon to get the data, maybe some of us should know that these multilateral agencies have more accurate and complete data on Nigeria (that can be used for analysis) than the Nigerian Government.

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/countries/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_NGA.html

Please read the report objectively, it is a compsite measure attempting to concentrate on standard of living across countries.

There was no plan to place Nigeria that low, it was the data analysed that presented the results. Its the same measure that was used for all the countires in the report.

I am beginning to find it hard to define what patrioticism is all about especially from the Nigerian perspective.

donnie:
Thanks for your comments and that of Buluti. Actually, nobody is worshiping anybody here. Please understand that it is almost impossible for one who has no identity but Christ's to mislead anyone. His message is clear. He never seeks to introduce or glorify himself. The man exhudes humility.

He is a blessed man and by him, millions are being blessed around the world. Many are coming to know of their divine herritage and inheritance in Christ.

So just like i do not want to appear to be an advocate for Christ Embassy, but the Word; i will also wish that you be careful not to be seen as one of those who seek the downfall of this great man of God, looking for faults where there really aren't any.

Hardly any preacher in Nigeria will pass the kind of tests he has passed and remain standing.

A testimony to the lifting and sustaining power of God's Word.

@ donnie, its okay we wont see you as an advocate of Christ Embassy, because its not about Christ Embassy its about our walk as christains.

Its not my intention to pick your words because i understand what you are trying to say, but statements like "by him, millions are being blessed" is what am scared about. Yes he is a vessel in the masters hands and doing great works, but it not him "but christ that lives in him".

I look forward to when you guys will speak and there would be less emphasis on him and more on Christ. It is Christ that is at work in him, and nothing is done "BY HIM". Might sound simple but many could be misled with such little mixups. Christ Embassy is what it is today because Gods grace evidenced by God's grace on your pastors life and not because of anyone (him inclusive).

And please leave the level that many are wishing for anyones downfall. Do you know that many ministries and preachers are facing different challenges. Theres nothing too great about what Christ Embassy has or will go through, e.g. KICC was indicted for misuse of funds by the UK authorities, you don't think thats a challenge to that ministry as well. So please free yourself, focus on the issues, "Christ" and him alone.

Many preachers in Nigeria are facing their own test everyday and are still standing.

We pray that as long as they are called by his name, they will will pass through situations standing and coming out better. The same way we all face our issues everyday.

buluti:
I had thought this thread was dead and was quite happy with that.

But as I keep reading some comments in here its really really scary.

When some[b]one[/b] can say i follow Pastor Chris as he follows Christ. How?? Do you still need a mediator. Why not just follow Christ directly as Pastor Chris follows Christ directly.

I keep reading this fallacy on miracles and signs, it is the most worrisome. My question is who says there are no signs where the name of Christ is being preached and who says the Holy spirit doesnt show up in gatherings with the same manifestations?

I really don't know how i would feel if am told where i currently fellowship that the Gospel is "different", its good to be unique, its good to be special as the very hair on our head is numbered, but different i don't know. If ever i want to leave for whatever leason e.g. move to Iraq or something does that imply am missing out on God, that i can't grow and receive from God else where in the same measure if not more. I must either start that same ministry or listen to tapes from that ministry only or approved names from that ministry. Scary

@ donnie thank you for your "brotherly" response. I am unsure of what you meant by rebels in the house of God wishing to raise others like themselves.

Please read my earlier post i was careful to use some[b]one[/b] and some attempting not to make generalizations. You need to try and analyze issues in the proper context and not use stereotypes or mindsets. The teaching i was referring to was quite frequent from members of the subject ministry and that was why i stated it was scary understaning that it might not be all members that share same sentiments.

With the frequency of such comments and there been no rebutal from members such as yourself who might know better to advise them, that "Christ" is the only one we need for our christain walk, its good to admire our Pastors and recognise thier office but when we use them as the standard, it is quite scary.

I would have thought you (donnie) would have advised the fellow but instead you are quick to identify a "rebel".

I also dont know where i stated that Christ Embassy was not built on Gods words, please be careful.

I had thought this thread was dead and was quite happy with that.

But as I keep reading some comments in here its really really scary.

When someone can say i follow Pastor Chris as he follows Christ. How?? Do you still need a mediator. Why not just follow Christ directly as Pastor Chris follows Christ directly.

I keep reading this fallacy on miracles and signs, it is the most worrisome. My question is who says there are no signs where the name of Christ is being preached and who says the Holy spirit doesnt show up in gatherings with the same manifestations?

I really don't know how i would feel if am told where i currently fellowship that the Gospel is "different", its good to be unique, its good to be special as the very hair on our head is numbered, but different i don't know. If ever i want to leave for whatever leason e.g. move to Iraq or something does that imply am missing out on God, that i can't grow and receive from God else where in the same measure if not more. I must either start that same ministry or listen to tapes from that ministry only or approved names from that ministry. Scary

otuwe:
the only thing i have to say is don't call the bible Word of God. bible, scripture and all the likes should be enough to describe it not Word of God. except you're saying the romans are the ones writing God's Word.

in the begining was the Word[/b] (the bible was not in existence then) and the Word was with God(am sure He didnt have the Bible) [b]and the Word was God(am sure it wasnt refering to the bible)

the bible is the bible, it is not the word of God.

Christ is the Word incarnate and since He didnt write the Bible, the Bible is not the word. its only a spiritual Book.

@ otuwe i fail to see how your post relates to Tithe, Not to Tithe, Giving or related issues.

It might suit you to start a thread on the contradictions in the bible, if its a spiritual book or God's word.

Perhaps you need to know that "every scripture is giving by inspiration, " i wont bother to quote or sight the exact scripture before u accuse me like you have done to pilgrim.1.

But to address your issues everything in the bible is God's word. Lets not play around words, the writers of the bible were presenting Gods thought to us and they did that under the inspiration of the Holy spirit, and we are baptized into that same spirit, so theres no contradiction.

Please note its not a spiritual book, using your words please don't call my fathers word a "spiritual book". To help you on the church issue, the church are a people called out of darkness into light, we are the body of christ. We believe Jesus died for our sins, on the third day he rose from the dead and is seated at the right hand of God. We confess with our mouth and believe in our hearts this truth. Its our hearts desire to do the fathers will and live by the his instructions found in the Bible, and if it will help thats the reason for the thread.

You may wish to study church history if you so choose and see the various stages the bible has gone through, but to state that the Bible is not God's word, i dare say is "heresy".

@ pilgrim.1 & TV01, it would be nice for you guys to bring down the tone of your responses. I believe the intention is to share with & edify each other. I must confess this thread has been a blessing so am pained when i read some unnecessary and derogatory comments from each of you.

Now on the issue of tithing, i recognise TV01 point and recently tilted towards that persuasion. I used to tithe thought i understood why but to me it was like a law i.e. "under the law". Then i started giving (i.e. not observing tithing) and really at this point i gave more than i used to when i "tithed", but i still studied and wanted to understand more. So when i found this thread i come in frequently to read the contributions. TV01 persuasion until recently has been very sound and he showed good understanding of the issues.

However, pilgrim.1 has brought in a totally new perspective to the debate and i had to go study Hebrews 7, after reading her responses. My Life application study bible translates Hebrews 7: 8 "In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die: but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living" and verse 9 "One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham". In my opinion the key to unlocking this debate lies in Hebrew 7:8 and would want responses from the Bible scholars in the house on this verse, from as many translations as possible.

In addition i agree with pilgrim.1 that those who give are blessed above those who don't and more specifically the differentiation between those who give simply as an attitude and those that give as an act of worship in other words sacrificial.

Am not much of a theologian but Hebrews 7:8 could suggest that there is a place of Tithing for a NT believer or the church. I still would want to read more responses on that verse and chapter. I would not subscribe to this "law", "mandatory" or "voluntary" theories. Tithing as showed by Abraham was not "under the law" and a christain today is not "under the law", so a Christain could Tenth (Tithe) but not in response to or under the law.

My question however lies on the applicability to us today. Must i pay my tenth (tithe) on a monthly income, or must it be from increases i.e. bonuses etc. How can i ascertain if Abraham continuously paid this Tenth or if it was a once and for all thing. In addition my Tenth is it from first fruits (i.e yearly) or is it again from my monthly income.

Furthermore, is there a guide on where i should pay my tenth to, can i choose to give my tenth to charities, or those in need amongst us in the body of Christ, or must i pay it to the ministry i belong to and actively support. The easy answer is to pay the Tithe to where i worship and not worry about how it is used, though i believe its used properly, i also know am accountable for the resources God has blessed me with and see a lot of opportunities to bless people that the "Big" ministry cannot see, i should be able to use my resources to bless the brethren and not only give to my ministry.

I really would want responses along this line, am sorry if am deviating or expanding the thread, but to me the question is bigger than just "Tithe or Not to Tithe". The 2 schools have presented good arguments, so to let move on. If we "Tithe" how should it be pratised and if people are to give freely how should it also be pratised, is there a place for sacrificial giving in the proponents of that school. Lets expand this debate a bit.

Just when we thought we had a leader of sober disposition and deep thinking we receive such a list. Why am i not surprised, no matter the good intentions of the president if he has one, there can be no development.

While other nations form their cabinent immediately, knowing even before hand. It has taken my dear country more than a month to come up with nonsense. Apart from Bode Agusto and maybe one or two people what good can come from that list.

What else to expect another 4 years of waste and leadership without vision and direction.

@ I-man,

Again you make unlike comparisons, i compared commesorate periods and utilised them to establish trend, i could as well take any govt in 1956 or 1900 and 20 years later look at the party in power and say this party brought this down form this, analytically thats speculation. Comparing like with like provides empirical proofs.

The postulation that Tony Blair is lucky i.e ruled in an era of global growth is intelluctually unsound, it assumes nothing was done and suggest in the face of wrong policies things will improve,i.e "do nothing and the results will be the same" i will not attempt to influence your view.

The well repeated anthem is becos its the truth, unfortunately the tories dont have such histroy to call, they would shout it if they did, they know their strong point is not the economy and this is the first time have met a Tory inclined person attempt to argue their strength on economic policy so am not surprised when you compare 1979 - 1997 and 1997- 2006. I picked 1990 - 1996 and 1997 - 2003 and observed economic trends not absoulte vales that tell nothing. Secondly becos that provides a phase when the recession ended and the boom started, how it was managed under the two govts.

I guess we can go on for arguement sake, but since theres no new introduction of facts it has clearly become subjective and based on presentations. The underlying FACT remains sustained economic growth (evidenced by low interest rate, low inflation, low unemployment )over 10 years has never been achieved by the Tories and never in 150 years in the british economy. Correlation and causation is different, every one knows correlation and regression show different things, i am not looking at the direction but the magnitude of the changes, i wont be heard saying luck is responsible but can show that policies such as independence of BOE, fiscal discipline has led to control of inflation, interest rate, unemployment and GDP growth.

I would stop on the NHS and EU cos they were add ons and clearly political, my arguement remains sustained economic growth evidenced by low unemployments, low interest rates, low inflation and growth in GDP over 10 years of govt. If you say no aspect of the economy can be ascribed to Tony Blair or Labour policies, perhaps theres a need to re-define economics or political economy. Even Magaret Thatcher acknowledge the economic strenghts of the govt and David cameroun cant go there, he dwells on thins u dwell on NHS, EU and the likes.

I repeat my arguement no government has delivered sustained growth over 10 years like Tony Blairs govt, if u like call it luck then so be it, let the Tories pray for luck when they are in power, but we know its not luck its hard work and an effective monetary policy controlling interest rate & inflation and a pragmatic fiscal policy.

Thanks i rest.

@ I-Man,

I can see clearly your issue is with taxation. I showed clearly measures of economic success (ie interest rate and unemployment) and what you have added is per capita income growth from (1979 - 1997) nearly two decades of booms and recessions an era of gross fiscal indiscipline. Inaddition i clearly dont see the need of the variable because in real terms GDP growth reflects the per capita income growth i.e. GDP per capita is GDP divided by total population so assuming that population doesnt grow at phenomenal rates the two variables capture the same thing.

In addition a short coming of using GDP growth as a measure of economic success is that it does not provide an avenue to judge the efficacy of Monetary and Fiscal policies. It is not always difficult to make comparison in two eras as long as you are measuring like with like, you can clearly see changes positive and negative. My point doesnt fall short becos i was comparing like with like i didnt just choose an arbitrary starting point of 1979 and compared to say 2002 (absolute values), i compared over a sample period for the two parties to provide an insight and establish a trend.

My main agruement remains that "The British economy has in recent years seen the longest period of sustained economic growth for more than 150 years, and is one of the strongest economies in the world in terms of inflation, interest rates and unemployment, all of which remain relatively low" (its the record the Torys cant deny and celeberated by Labour) and no Tory govt has ever achieved this in histroy. The Torys were in power for almost 2 decades and all that was noticed were always ups and downs, reactions to problems no sustained plan so saying that labour didnt start the economic boom is sour grape.

Again on EU you misquote me, i said members of an alliance not members of the EU, i particulalry chose my words, i was attempting to show the advantages of Unions and Alliances. This debate is belated cos even the Tories agree that being with the EU is beneficial its the extent of association they are against.

Please NHS under the Tories you call improvements, i personally had an aunt in 1990 that was going to be on the waiting list till 1995 to receive surgery, luclkily her husbands firm had medical insurance, she imagines if they didnt what would have happened, today all that is history and you call that throwing money at a problem. Most of those that make such statements have medical insurance and so really dont care of the nitty gritty, they are complaining that the money spent is too much becos of the huge taxes.

Most people i have come across that are conservatively inclined is due to taxation policies and when i engage them in discussions its usually cos they feel they are paying too much tax, they want their tax to be reduced and dont mind the cost to the state, its not shameful that labour didnt reduce tax (Gordon Brown did in the last budget anyway) because they have delivered on the economy, they have provided more jobs more than any govt over a period of time, the funds are being utilised.

Again i summarise that Tony Blair remains one of the most successful Prime Ministers becos he led "The British economy to an era of the longest period of sustained economic growth for more than 150 years, and is one of the strongest economies in the world in terms of inflation, interest rates and unemployment, all of which remain relatively low. The Labour govt identifies with issues that affect the generality of people and not a few.

Having addressed that Tony Blair is legendary in terms of economic prosperity, the question you have raised is that of integrity and loosing sovernity i.e. the EU association.

I mentioned earlier that Norway and Switzerland cannot be compared to the UK but you suspiciously channeled the arguement towards standard of living. Whilst i agree that this countries enjoy better quality of life i really can't correlate that to world politics, does China enjoy this quality of life the answer is NO, but is it more relevant in World politics compared to Norway and Switzerland the answer is Yes. Agreed UK enjoys a permanent seat on the UNSC but hey that doesnt translate into an alliance, it is a recognition of the influence that being a member of the EU ensures.Perhaps national interest was wrong nomenclature, maybe i should state it that being in the EU avails the opportunity of support in terms of crises. If UK were to go to war who are more likelhy to send troops, would China or Iran send troops NO, but members of an alliance are OBLIGATED to support and the larger picture interms of trade, investment flows etc are quite huge.

[quote author=I-man link=topic=62439.msg1247776#msg1247776 date=1183064690]Well,you said Blair promised higher taxes when he made no such promise.Labour,traditionally was known as the party of wealth redistribution.When Blair took over from Neil Kinnock,one of the key planks of Blair's "New Labor" was to eschew all talks of redistribution.In effect,he was elected on the basis that the "tax and spend" traditions of the  Labor party was over.He has betrayed people's trust on that issue.So,far from increased taxes being one of the expectations of a new Labour Govt,tax rates were expected to stay fairly stable.

You effectively blame it on Brown.However,it is one of the drawbacks of his regime that he left fiscal policy solely in the hands of Brown.[/quote]Finally on this taxation issue you misunderstand me and misquote me, i never said Tony Blair promised to increased taxes i said it is an expected Labour Policy, it will be foolhardy to expect a Labout government to pursue tax cutting policy it is not their manifesto. Agreed New Labour under Tony Blair promised to redirect policy on the implementation of the ideology of income redistribution, thats exactly what the govt has done, you might call Tony Blair names but from a realist point he is a politician so is David Cameroun who currently stands for nothing, but saying Tony Blair would intentionally deceived people is inaccurate and far from the truth.

On the issue of council tax its news to me in those constituency you mentioned, thanks for the info (though i would have loved to ascertain the source) and i agree that the rate is higher under a Labour govt but the total picture is what concerns me, and thats what concerns the government,unemployment is falling, interest rate is falling.

The NHS is quite political and debating on it one stands the risk sounding politically incorrect, the fact is that the NHS has improved evidenced by quick access to GP's and shorter waiting list and please note the NHS was and is a labour initiative, it was introduced by a Labour government. So if you say Tony Blair spent 4 times more to achieve that, what did the conservatives achieve during their reign, a dilapitated health sector, education sector in ruins, selective education seperating the "so called" gifted children who more often come from wealthy homes.

I share your frustration on high taxation but a Labour government provides a an opportunity for all as compared to the conservatives which is a government for the few (the elite).

I conclude by restating that Tony Blair was a successful PM and infact one of the greatest Britain has ever had, i could add more you have stated the Norther Ireland settlement, Debt reduction for Africa the list goes on and on.

@ I-man thank you for your response. I would attempt to demonstrate below that the UK economy under the Labour government has been more prosperous concentrating my arguement a bit in these areas being one of my underlying criteria of describing Blair and by extension the labour govt thus far a success. I would later attempt to address "the" EU issue (albeit this is purely political, we would be unable utilise stats). Finally i will provide my thoughts on the taxation issue and the "income redistribution" philosophy you claim was re-introduced.

[quote author=I-man link=topic=62439.msg1247776#msg1247776 date=1183064690]Here is an excerpt from a report on the UK economy between 1996 and 1997-The British economy has started to show some considerable strength at the tail end of 1996 and into 1997 with annualized growth topping 4%.-Here is the source-http://www.g7.utoronto.ca/evaluations/1997denver/compliance/uk/ukmac.htmTo put things in perspective,GDP growth was 2.7% in 2006 and has averaged around that figure since Blair came into power,a figure lower than the growth rate at the inception of the LABOUR Govt.

In addition,average per capita income growth rate between 1986 and 1996 was 2.4%,same as between 1996 and 2003,in other words,no difference.So how Blair "delivered a strong economy" is hard to understand when the eocnomy was booming when he came into power.[/quote]You have provided stats on the GDP growth rate which is a good measure of economic growth stating that the average in the Blair govt was 2.7% as compared to the conservatives 2.4%. Though i do not totally disagree with you figures i attach an excel spreadsheet showing GDP growth rate. Particularly please note 1991 where there was a negative growth of -1.4% and observe the trend and your so called "boom". The arguement is that the Labour government has ensured a continous boom as against a conservative that records erratic figures one year low another year high.

Please note that the measure of economic prosperity is not GDP growth rate ALONE, it must be considered simulataneously with other indicators and following the World bank, IMF and several scholars i would consider it along with interest rate and unemployment rates. Again i have attached two spreadsheets showing this two variables. For the period 1990-1996 interest rate averaged at 8.95% while 1997-2003 it averaged at 5.33% and it has continued to drop, the difference is clear between the two regimes who has a more effective monetary policy. Pertinent to note that interest rate (in other words the cost of credit) is an all important variable as it affects investment, a difference of 3% for a period of 7 years is alone to either make businesses expand or cause them to close. Calculate 3% on a loan of £1 billion over a 7 year period, then you can understand the additional cost.

Now considering unemployment the average for the same period under the two governments conservative 38.6%, Labour 29% (this is long term unemployment) so please imagine more jobs for 10% of the population under the Labour govt.

These policies along with prudent fiscal policies under Tony Blair has ensured these variables are kept in check.

Let me bring it home, what labour has achieved is growth simultaneously with low interest rate and low unemployment more importantly sustained this figures over 10 years this has not been achieved in the last 150 years, and thats the reason Tony Blair is a success story.

I will continue in another thread to make easy reading.

@ I-man,

So i guess we should expect council tax to drop significantly now that the conservatives control more of the councils, i am yet to hear any council that has dropped the council tax. This debate is not on council tax so i wont dwell much, please read the link there are criterias used to determine the council tax and the conservatives are almost as bad as labour on that. You need to read the conservative manifesto they really are not interested in such taxes, it doesnt affect their interest anyway let me move on.

Tony Blair introduced "New labour" in 1997 and saying they didnt campaign on the platform of income re-distribution is like saying theres a difference between six and half a dozen. The polices to expect from a labour govt are clear and increased taxation is one of it just like we expect the conservatives to reduce certain taxes.I introduced income redistribution in the arguement because thats the underligning ideology behind progressive taxation.

Let me mention that i join in the clamour for reduced taxes as the policy has been pursued a bit too much, several Labour back benchers and MP's clamour for that as well, but i guess its Gordon Brown baby so i don't expect that to change, having said that it is not enough to change my ideological stand. And this evil you abscribe to Tony Blair is actually Gordon Browns evil perhaps you were not aware that Tony Blair left 100% of the treasury decisions to him and actually theres a talk of an agreement during the labour leader battle before 1997.

It is ok if you think it is flawed and think it leads to the prevalence of tax evasion, empirically i doubt if that can be proven, but it is a rational expected behaviour that tax evasion would increase. If you know this you think the govt doesnt know, i guess thats why the govt has decided to spend more on govt establishments such as HRMC.

The idea you call flawed has delivered a strong economy and please labour under Tony Blair delivered a strong economy. The idea that the economy was booming is so inaccurate similar to the arguement that Clinton was lucky. Please its no luck nor is it related to the initia state, its the dynamic flows that was pursued, policies such as the independence of the bank of England ensuring monetary policy decisions is devoid of politics. Its not luck or magic it has been consistent hard work on the part of those responsible for montary policy and a corresponding disciplined fiscal policy on the part of the govt.

On the EU again i am amused at your analogy, i wonder where Norway and Switzerland are in the scheme of world politics, the influence they exert and why we are not discussing their PM here. Britain is too involved and centre to take the stand you suggest , it would not be in their interest, even the conservatives know that. Why is America a member of NATO and several other alliances, they can as well decide to be alone.

I wont bother on the NHS because that line is what the opposition is using to deceive the unenlightened ie that of commesorate spending and results, during the conservative governments why didnt they spend at all, now a govt is spending the issue now, the gain is minimal at least we all agree theres a gain. The opposition till date cannot state clearly their plans for the NHS its all PR, the same line of we would listen to those on ground, which is what Brown will do so i wonder what they will say next.

In summary saying Tony Blair acted in conviction in Iraq alone is unfair to the man. The conviction in the guy can be seen in the way he answers questions, in his drive e.g look at the debt reduction drive for HIPC and you say its only the Iraq case he showed conviction, the economy u think it was by mistake or an issue of acting infavour or against character, it was pursuing policies that he was convicted on.

No matter how hard you try you cannot take away the economic success from the Blair government and since u agree infavour of the one issue that paints his government bad then you are actually idolising the guy making him more of a success.

@ I-man,

First lets clarify issues, council tax is not set by the prime minister it is set by individual councils, so please Tony Blair should not be blamed for high council Tax, talk to your councilor.

http://www.voa.gov.uk/TheFacts/council-tax-facts.htm#q2

On the issue of taxation i quite share the frustration, broadly speaking its a Labour policy to attempt to redistribute wealth by taxing high income earners more than low income earners in a bid to generate revenue to provide services that ordinary the low income bracket cannot provide for themselves. The ideology is an egalitarian society, but please note that they (Tony Blair himself) are also taxed at these high rates as well.

So once your income starts growing particularly getting to the 40K a yr bracket you will definately frown. My point is that Tony Blair cannot be blamed it is the policy of his party, its what he promised to do, so if the voters voted Labour perhaps thats the policy the people want.

On the issue of the EU i can see that you have been listening to the shallow arguement of the opposition. My question to you is should Britain be part of the EU or not? Then if you are in the EU to what extent do you loose your sovereignty and at the same time being part of the block. UK has tried to maintain that balance, whether thanks to Brown or not, it is the same government, at least he listened to Brown, he should be given credit for that. No wonder conservative govts are usually not a success, you isolate yourselves and expect what??

In cutting the size of the military. What has been the strategy? The idea unfortunately American grown is to have a smaller, swifter more equipped and better trained military. So the arguement now is being in so many conflicts at the same time has the home land become more vulnerable, But how vulnerable is the Home Land?? Come to think of it, those clamouring for a large military are the conservatives, defense budget are usually huge, juicy contracts of equipping a LARGE military are awarded, which they will argue should be equipped and trained at the smaller level of the smaill military, can you imagine the cost.

I totally disagree with you on your last statement that Tony Blairs failures are innumerable rather his success are innumerable again it depends on what policies you believe in and what ideology you lean towards. How can you say he has failed when he has delivered the best economy, the NHS you say is in a mess but the tragedy of long waiting lists are over, the health sector recorded the best boom ever, Nurses salaries were increased like no other govt.

The irony is that its the Iraq issue that many have painted him bad that you support.

dayokanu:
The problem with Lagos is basically population. The influx of people to Lagos every hour would not give room for any meaningful development to be felt. Abuja is clean and free of traffic because of the low population most of the ABuja working populace live outside the main city in the nearby towns.
The BRT has been causing a lot of traffic issues presently I hope it comes good else the time and money spent on it would have been wasted.

That much people in a small land mass would be very difficult to manage.
Then you can't compare Lagos of now to Lagos of Jakande population wise.

How can we continue thinking like this?? We recognise that population has its antedant difficulties in that it puts strain on the infrastructural facilitites, but mate, cities grow worlwide, The influx of people into London is also alarming but has that given room to meaningful development, Yes it has. Population is either a strength (asset) or weakness (liability) it depends on how it is handled. Its the fact that our leaders lack the CAPACITY and ABILITY to deal with the problem.

A city being small or big has nothing to do with it, its the vision and ideas (policies) running a city that matters. At the state and local level it is so easy to improve the quality of life but we choose to place the blame on the centre ALONE.

@ JustGood, you are getting things mixed up, i guess the election you are talking about is the recent local elections electing councillors, labour didnt perform well but the results were much better than the polls and predictions. It cannot provide an accurate picture of the political climate because thats local politics, just watch what will happen.

Truth be told Tony Blair is an outstanding individual and is one of the best prime Ministers Britain will ever have. Please take a look at economic stats in the last 10 years, in terms of prosperity and the economy Britain has not had it better since 1945. Do you watch prime Ministers questions at all and hear the stats.?? or the NHS and Iraq issue is confusing you. Even the NHS figures have you seen what has happened to the waiting list.

The opposition along the line of David Cameroun is playing nothing but PR and it is becoming clear,its their own MP that has stated this.  The guy (David) stands for nothing, a case is the Grammar school debate and see the nonsense he is proposing, simple do you support Grammar schools or not and they start blabbing in some constituencies yes, while in others NO, complicated policies.??

And to the contributor that think his support comes from ethnic minorities that so uninformed, the percentage of ethnic minorities in Britain is less than 5%. The policies of the Labour govt has been working and the people see it.

I don't want to go into the issue of Iraq because it is very complicated personally i don't support the war and definately it was most unnecessary, but what did you expect him to do, what are they called "allies" they support each other even in error unfortunately.

As he has stated he might have made a mistake (i think he knows) but he did what he thought right at the time and has stood by his decision, but i wont be among the simple minded that will judge 10 years of being PM on the Iraq issue ALONE. 

It is important to note that the conservatives supported the war, David Cameroun voted to go to war along with several conservative MP's, so please Iraq shouldnt be the issue alone, the opposition would have done the same, but would they have delivered a prosperous economy, i don't think so?? Labour is the party that takes difficult decisions and not play to the gallery. The results are there to show.

Apparently another thread has provided a link giving credence to the story by my friend. I really feel for this families.


http://odili.net/news/source/2007/may/22/501.html

viee:
you are loosing sight of the point here
i personally said that there isnt much to talk about in terms of the positive side
it dosnt also mean that they is nothing at all to talk about in this countries!
while im not expecting to get to BBC or anyother media at that and read how good our government officials are
i expect to read some good stories as well

from a journalist point of view, i know that there is always something good to write about a particular country irrespective of the negative media it has been receiving!

I really am lost as to your statement above sounds contradictory to me. I am loosing sight of the point what point?? That there isnt much to talk about in terms of the positive side, but it doesnt mean that nothing is happening!!!. Theres always something good to write about anything except the personality of the devil that is. The question is whats the overall impact, when the positive side is clearly and obviously overwhelmed by the negatives what should an objective media report. From a journalist point of view as you stated whats the role of the journalist? To report a few positive as seen in Nigeria, say a pipe borne water built with N1 billion when the actual cost is about N20 million (my exaggeration but am sure you get the point). Such cannot be reported by the international media, what will make news is a sustainable project to take water to all rural areas in the country, which should have been in its implementation phase and seen to be working not just paper projects as we see everyday.

In addition saying no good news on Africa is reported is being economical with the truth. Read this article on Namibia that is reported and please say why it shouldnt be reported. Its a clear case of progress and use of initiative.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/6668535.stm

Furthermore you stated that which government doesnt hide info, why am i not surprised at your statement. Whats the role of the media if not to expose such acts. Dont you read everyday on the western media where they are forcing their own govt to declassify memos and the serious attack the govts come under when any info is leaked. Ministers are forced to resign and statements made to defend positions its taken so seriously you just have to commend the system of accountability.

Rather than push for that we say all govt hide things?? We fail to realise that the search light and negative publicity is also applied on their own systems but there are people/government ministers seriously at work to ensure the media don't get so much to report, because they jump at bad news to show the failure of any govt. As simple as economic data is hidden thank God for the last Minister of Finance we now see revenue figures, we never used to have access to that.

I was woken up this morning by a call from a friend i had not heard from in ages perhaps 8 years. After exchanging plesantries and playing catch up he opened up to the real reason for the call as i knew he didnt wake me up early to say "how u dey". A bit of background information. We attended Univeristy together, and i had not heard from him since after service. He told me he got a job in a bank about 5 years ago i was really happy for him as he was one of those guys in school that had finance issues, his Uni experience were not rossy at all several times i squatted him in my uncles BQ on campus, feeding was an issue handouts was a luxury in short am sure you get the story. He told me he had rented a flat for his parents bought them a car and now takes care of his younger brother thankfully their last born. He also lives about 3 streets away from his parents and is quite comfortable.

So why you wake me up early mor mor (morning) my guy what is the problem??

The issue now is that he can't sleep at home again that he now sleeps with a colleague that stays in lekki while his folks sleep in church. Why is that?? Then the story started he said since a week after the elections armed robbery has resurfaced in his neighbourhood (Shogunle). He said armed robbers has made lives unbearable for them, that from 7pm the whole area is disserted, people leave home and go sleep elsewhere returning the next day. He narrated that if the robbers meet you at home and you are unfortunate not to have funds for them, you are told that you are lazy and not hard working that you are the ones causing problem in Nigeria beating the living day light out of the person, they take mobile phones, pots of soup, beer and every thing they can lay their hands on. His place has been raided but fortunately he wasnt at home and had practically moved out all his valuables that the robbers took his alcoholic drinks as he had a mini bar.

His thoery is that just before the elections arms were given to hoodlums by politicians and now after the election some were not returned and is being used for armed robbery, how can you substantiate that, at best thats speculation. He told me thats english am speaking explaining that i know he knows the streets well and thats the word on the streets, and that those carrying out the activities are externals,  Is there no police force actually theres a police station close by when called they tell you they can't come or that you should call a bigger police station with bigger logistics. Hey?? what about OPC, remember they used to be good at security, he stated that for some reason(s) OPC doesnt provide security again stating some political arrangement. Again to me speculation so i wont post his thoery on OPC.

He has decided to start a masters in september and wanted advice on a school and wanted my opinion on several issues which i provided. We spoke for a while and it was nice hearing from him though sad hearing of his current state. My advice on his most current predicament was to move out ASAP that with his income he can afford a place in Lekki or Ajah. He said what of his parents??, that he was really comfortable in the area, a 4 bedroom flat was very much affordable compared to those areas.

After the call i couldnt help but think about my country, if the BBC reported this they would be accused of reporting bad news or exaggerating. But this is the reality on ground in a "low/middle income surburb" in Lagos, Nigeria. . Our leaders definately are not in touch with down tier Nigeria, but just a word of thought for us all.

Are we really making progress when the most basic fundametal rights of the citizens cannot be guaranteed by the state.

If you want to verify the story. The streets that was raided by the thieves is Tiwalade street in Shogunle Lagos, a bus-stop before PWD (where you have the Air Force base Ikeja and before Ladipo bustop on the other side quite close to Oshodi). A young girl of 12 and an old man were killed. Other areas visited by the thieves were Afariogun street (where another man was killed) and several streets in mafoluku, the thieves drive about in 3 busses and 3 Okada (motor cycles) unopposed by no one.

It is not my intention to determine the causes of our problems we all have doctoral degrees in that, but i find it amazing when the western media is blamed for the problems in Africa with the line of exaggerating AFRICAN issues. Whilst i agree there might be a bit of prejudice on their part we always need to ask ourselves whats the truth.

In my opinion this news was not exaggerated , the picture as provided by thisday (attached) clearly reflects the extent of the damage, and the story as reported by thisday is similar to that reported by BBC. Anyway its a known fact that as a people we like and surround ourselves with sycophants and that standing the truth is always a problem.

closetpervert:
who cares what the western world reports about Africa, u expect better? the time wey Nigeria do election, every media wrote about how bad it was, Nigeria sent a satellite into space, no mention was made by the same media only a few wey no get better thing to write about the thing.

Mr. closetpervert, the news of the satelite launch was reported by the western media you hear see the link below. And let me ask you, was the technology indigenous and developed by Nigeria, did we launch the satelite ourselves and you want to be celeberated. Well the link is down here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6653067.stm?ls

I really don't know what you guys are on about. 60% of those that check the BBC from their mobile phones do that from Nigeria. Extremely good news to celeberate indeed but i guess you didnt ask yourself why?? What percentage of the population have internet access at homes? 

Angola's economy is the best growing in Africa. Whats the standard of living let me help you, output per capita in Angola is among the worst in the world, agriculture remains the main source of livelihood to 85% of the population, GNP per Capita in 2005 was just a bit above $1,000.

The point is that using African standards Angola can celeberate but not using global standards, when will we realise that we are in a global world and for recognition you must be at the top internationally. This warp sided thinking pattern is partly responsible for our slow growth and economic decline, mediocrity is celeberated, i just don't understand.

I wont bother on these western media issue again because its clear its sychophants you guys like. You want those that will sing your praise when you are going backwards. Keep looking for them maybe NTA will do that, but don't expect it from the BBC or western media. Perhaps you guys should start by researching the annual budget of the BBC and you will understand why when Nigerian journalist is looking for information on Nigeria they go to the BBC.

Its always a a serious headache writing an essay or doing research on issues affecting African nations because of the problem of data, the governments don't keep detailed records, theres always an attempt to hide something its always so clear. If the west has to carry out its own research on Africa and get the figures that we ourselves don't have on ourselves and we have to use it in analysing ourselves.

@ begum are you genuinely confused or is it based on the "confusion" of babs that you require answers. My question to you is are you a christain , do you believe in the holy spirit and do you study your bible.

You will get your answers if you want to, in my opinion Tayo has provided good insight, but to understand certain things he mentioned you must have been studying your bible.

"Deep calleth unto deep" and in studying you compare scripture with scripture. Just picking verses in isolation wont help you, so if you want to understand start the journey, the answers would come by revelation.

organiser relax theres no need getting worked up in cyberspace you need to calm down. Okay.

I will ignore your comments and attacks and attempt to address the issues. So typical of us Nigerians. Just a quick question. What did you hope to achieve typing all that?? Was only wondering,

Its your idea and that is commendable. You claim the topic has been here for weeks?? i really don't understand you but your first post was on the 22nd of April 2007.

You are the organiser and the judge, you should have stated that from thread one and not attempt to deceive people providing the wrong image. I wouldnt have wasted my time.

Anyway since its your game go ahead and have fun. At least we are all clear that it is you and YOU alone playing a game.

A thought: Cant you see why you didnt get responses (though the period was short).?? Think about it.

NB: You adviced i spell check but you failed to show the error, not like i can't make any but of what relevance is it,  Intellecyt, oh sorry intellect, it shows you know.

Ordinary i couldnt be bothered about who wins or doesn't win but when the process is clearly against equity and fairness then it is pertinent to make certain observations.

Organiser please do you realise this is a public forum and the members do not constitute only Nigerians, what impression do you want them to form about us based on this "shabby" (s)election you are organising. I have read your comments so far and they tell a lot of your intellect. You claim that the list what reduced from 10 to 5 and in the wisdom of the "judge" he decided that there should be a vote. My advice is that the judge should have selected the winner since to you he is unbiased and possess the required knowledge base and experience to do so.

Clearly the judge is biased and you are carrying out a shabby job. The thread was opened on April 22 and almost immediately the list was cut from 10 to 5, in your opinion dont you think you should still be receiving entries and not asking people to vote.

In short theres no need for me to say any thing further can this be moved to the Jokes section please, becos clearly it is one.

jeshua:
you said we can't even organize an election? Is that the problem or we don't even have a democracy yet? just think about it Mr. Whiteman advocate, i know people like you very well, you cry and make noise about things you will never sacrifice to change. Where were you when people died trying to flush out babangida's regime, where were you? I guess wearing boxers on top jeans?
Go check the American history and you will see they were in our situation before and they did what we are doing now. It is not a sin to be who we are now as long as we are still moving on. tell you clients to stop messing around with Africans, we will get ther not in accordance with their pattern.
QED

Please refer to the bold part of your statement above and state where you were and what your contribution was?

Enough said i see where this is leading from the tone of your reply and i decide not to be a part of it. You have clearly left issues, if this is your pattern of getting there all well and good.

I wish you the best.

jeshua:
I WISH OKOTIE WILL JUST READ YOUR MESSAGE AND COME TO REALIZE THAT WELL MEANING NIGERIANS LOVE HIM BUT WANTS HIM TO STOP TAKING NIGERIA AND .

I wish you would seek to understand societies properly and not attempt to give reason to failure.

jeshua:
I JUST WISH THE LIKES OF PAT UTOMI WILL COME TO UNDERSTAND THAT AFRICA'S WAY OF LIFESTYLE IS NOT DEMOCRACY BUT DICTATORSHIP. IN THE TIME PAST, WE HAD KINGS WHO RULED OVER US WITH AUTHORITY AND EVEN EGYPT WAS RULED BY PHARAOHS, THAT IS WHAT WE ARE NOT WHAT THE WEST GAVE US.

Perhaps you might wish to know that England was ruled by Kings in time past so was France, Spain and several other democratic countries. So the fact that Democracy in Africa is not working has nothing to do with historical precedence but of a weak followership that does not demand accountability but chooses to be easily manipulated also by an unsincere and bad leadership.

jeshua:
I AM NOT SAYING THE MILITARY DICTATORSHIP BUT MAYBE DEMOCRACY MAY NOT BE OUR STYLE. WHERE IN AFRICA DO YOU SEE DEMOCRACY WORKING?

Please what are you proposing if not a military dictatorship and not a democracy what do you suggest for Africa maybe a monarchy?? Can you please be clear. You stated earlier that dictatorship is not traditionally African, so what form of Dictatorship??

jeshua:
WHERE IN AFRICA DO YOU SEE DEMOCRACY WORKING? IF YOU FIND ONE, YOU WILL SEE THE INFLUENCE OF THE WEST OR POSSIBLY DEMOCRACY GUIDED BY THE RULES OF DICTATORSHIP. GADDAFI IS A GOOD EXAMPLE. GHANA IS CONTROLLED BY THE WEST AND THEIR ECONOMY IS SAID TO BE GOOD WITH THE CURRENCY DEVALUED TO NOTHING. THAT IS DEMOCRACY. THE EAST OF AFRICA MAY BE ABLE TO BOAST OF DEMOCRACY WITH A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL RULING UNTIL HE GETS TIRED.

Again you are showing you lack understaing of issues and societies. Democracy can work in Africa but for it to work the electorate needs to be educated and enlightened on their rights and responsibilities. Democracy depends on followership to be successful, you must invest in people. It has nothing to do with the West but with purposeful and sincere leadership. We need to stop blaming the west for our problems, its irresponsible and "mental laziness" suggesting we lact the intellectual ability to rule ourselves.

jeshua:
THESE DOESNT HAPPEN IN THE WEST, IT IS THEIR LIFESTYLE. WHEN ARE WE GOING TO REALIZE WE NEED TO CREATE OUR OWN STYLE OF GOVERNMENT.
I WILL ALWAYS SUBSCRIBE TO A TRUE NATIONAL CONFERENCE, IT IS TIME WE SIT AND PLAN OUT WHAT WE WANT NEXT. IF WE DONT DO IT, AFRICA REMAINS BOND TO WHAT WILL KEEP HIM ENSLAVED TO THE WEST FOREVER. A NATIONAL CONFERENCE WHERE A TEA CUP IS STILL THE PRICE OF TEA CUP SOLD ON THE STREETS,NOT A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE WILL BE PAID TO COME AND SLEEP-MY COUNRTY PEOPLE-MAY GOD HELP US. UNTIL THEN CAN WE ALL LAUGH

It has not always been their lifestyle, they learnt it and were sincere. They have so much encrypted democracy into their societies that you can't imagine an age that was not democratic. Why have a National conference when you feel Democracy is not African? Such a contradiction? Ok lets for arguement sake agree that Democracy is not for us, we need to design our own form of governance what manner should it be, decided by the people, by a few or inherited. Unfortunately the options in governance are little, its either a democracy or autocracy maybe monarchy (also autocracy). They might take different forms but the fundamentals remain the same. In my opinion the leader can either be chosen by the people, by a few or inherited.

Africa has choosen to be bonded by its leadership due to selfish interest and it is now endermic in the society. Leadership is not about service for us but about an opportunity to get wealthy using state resources and living lavishly, this habits has been profiting the west doesnt mean they forced you to do it. WAKE UP.

Finally people are beginning to see reason, that this pictures and reports are actually the truth. Texx thanks if it will take your epistle to remove the scale please preach it more, and more.

@ pain i appreciate your patriotism and Nationalism and others but we need to face facts, it doesnt make you less patriotic in my opinion the patriotic charater is one that can stand and speak the truth objectively irrespective of your own individual pecularity.

We should actually be grateful to the BBC and the western media for taking out time to show this ills and not taking the sycophant stand. The reports from the elections have been so disgusting that i was close to tears watching CNN and BBC, knowing that this is what the world is watching, it was a big disgrace so much more because i knew it was true generally and not a few odd cases.

The question of degredation in values especially among the youths gives me so much concern, this "yahoo boys" syndrome that has captured our society, people accept it and they are actually becoming role models. All this can be penciled down to the stagnant economy and extremely low standard of living of the masses, in a bid to break out of the poverty bracket the youths are turning to crime.

We need purposeful leadership more than ever before, our economy must grow and at a much higher growth rate than we are expereiencing. These things are not rocket science but requires first a willing and purposeful leadership, then a followership that demands accountability and are objective in their assertions, not taking the lazy way out of issues.

jeshua:
I DONT ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN BY STEP UP, DEVELOP YOURSELF,, DRESS DECENTLY AND THE REST OF THE NONSENSE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT (I DONT MEAN TO BE RUDE). BUT HAVE YOU WATCHED THE MOVIE: "HOTEL RWANDA" BECAUSE IF YOU HAVENT, JUST GO GET IT AND WATCH. DO YOU THINK THAT THE OYINBOS-WHITES CARE ABOUT US? FO YOU THINK THEY MEAN WELL- YOU BETTER PRAY YOU DONT FALL INTO THEIR HAND AND GET TO SEE THAT EVEN WITH YOUR SUITS AND NICE FACE YOU ARE STILL A BLACK MAN, AND A PROBABLE FORMER SLAVE.
WHAT THEY POST ON THEIR bbc AND cnn AND EVEN THEIR uno MEETINGS IS NOT MEANT TO MAKE AFRICA BETTER BUT TO KEEP US DOWN. FORGET ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO TO GAIN RESPECT AND EVEN THAT STATEMENT MEANS YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO BE SOMETHING-WHY DO YOU HAVE TO Step up your game, develop yourself, respect yourself, dress decently and people would respect you. As noblezone said lets "disappoint the bad news hunters". BEFORE YOU CAN BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

If you dont understand what i meant by "step up your game" its alright, leave your game where it is and keep getting the treatment you are receiving.

I have watched Hotel Rwanda and i dont see the significance here. Yes there is a bias against Africa and blacks but does that mean you should live in shadows. I strongly believe just like Nigeria, Africans deserve what they are getting, for heavens sake we cant organise an election, we are a laughing stock of the world and you want people to respect you. Please note i dont need anyones sympathy becos am black i face discrimination everyday doesnt mean i will dwell on the discrimination. I faced tribalism in Nigeria so whats the difference.

Sorry i wont forget what i can do to gain respect, i would work on it, i would work on myself and project a positive image, not becos am black but becos i believe respect is earned. No where in the world does respect drop from the sky it has to be earned. If your arguement was that the odds are against the black man or that its difficult being a black man desiring to rise to the top of his career in the west i could concurr a bit but not this mental laziness arguement of yours.

My advise to you is remain the way you are, wear the boxers over your jeans and expect to be treated with respect why wonder when you are treated as a teenager. Why must you do anything, please do nothing. Who told you even the whites dont face challenges of a sort, the challenge i face might be different but everyone faces challenges. Even the whites project a positive image, they develop themselves, then you say why should you do anything?? Do nothing. Remain there.

@ Bankole1, to the average nigerian being blind counts as patrioticsm we cant even objectively look at issues, a lot of us cant get it that the pictures being projected give a true representation of the average everyday life of Nigerians and Africa not the minority in the few cities, we are getting upset for nothing.

Where are the pictures you want to post, am still waiting as i said pls get a picture of where people are queing up for water and post it. In addition post the houses of the average citizens in these countries, not junkies please.

We should keep living in denial, when all the observers have stated their opinions.

No the BBC should have stated the election was free and fair, there was no intimidation and everyone was allowed to vote freely. Even at the face of concrete evidence viz texx & Tayo's mum experiences some are still blaming the BBC.

We just want to be told lies, thats why we deserve what we are getting, why complain of NTA, they are broadcasting what you want to hear.

These same western media are stunch critics of their own systems ensuring that they have accountability but no "some" prefer to be told lies. You are entitled to your opinions though but lets know the world is outside Nigeria and the source of the news they "trust" is these news you are calling lies which has evidence i.e. videos and interviews.

Do you think if there was violence or intimidation during the french election, the BBC or CNN wont report it, they are not reporting it becos it didnt happen.

I agree we definately got and still get what we deserve.

Observing the disgrace of the elections. Who should be held responsible for this?? Was it a script just waiting to be played by the PDP or was it a failure from INEC. Come to think of it the opposition thought INEC was ready to hold elections. So what happened?

Should we hold OBJ responsible or Maurice Iwu? Who does INEC report to. Maurice Iwu should resign but alas not in Nigeria he would be promoted.

Food for though to us all who should be held responsible for this madness?

Links for your personal consumption below. Like it or not this is what the world is reading and forming there impression on. Why complain when you are seen as "someone coming from hell" quote from a Nairaland user.

Are such statements like the west is "biased" or are reporting the "bad parts" or "they don't like Nigeria" not unintelligent or plain stupid. Is it not just a sign of not wanting to face our responsibilities as a nation blaming someone else? Is it the BBC or CNN that said we should not organise elections properly.

Feel free to contribute the intent of the thread is wide so you shouldnt be accused of not keeping to topic.

Flawed elections.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/04/22/nigeria.elections.reut/index.html

Reports from observers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6582979.stm

People happy to vote, though disinterested and have to raise up their hands, they are still happy to vote.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6579513.stm

It is quite obvious the PDP is not power hungry, they ensured there were no materials round the country (oh sorry it was INEC as they dont report to anybody), they ensured people would be unable to vote (no again its INEC or the people themselves), they ensured that thugs were everywhere thumb printing PDP (thugs just love the PDP and hate others), no they are not power hungry (they love democracy).

The case stated in this thread is so irrelevant and does not suggest in any form whatsover the sincerity of the PDP rather it has to do with personal vindictiveness, unforgiveness and ego of the leadership of PDP.

I just wonder what they will do if they were power hungry.