₦airaland Forum

Christanity is not a story to you, you have a personal relationship with God. God has been good to you. Please share it, tell it here from your salvation experience to when you received the Holy spirit, to your everyday experiences. Please tell it all, of how you gist with the Holy Spirit, how he guides you. God blessed you with a job, saved you from an accident, gave you specific directions on things to do. Share it.

Your faith is not based on near death experiences or others experiences. You call Jesus God and that he died for your sins on the third day he rose from the dead and is seated at the right hand of God the father. You believe in your heart and confess with your mouth these things. Please share it, Jesus is not a prophet to you, how do you know? Please share your testimonies here.

For those that want to play and may decide to share all sorts or turn it to an arguement its left to you but the intention of this thread is for christain to share their testimonies. Simple and straightforward.

Nella congratulation on being a prohetess since thats what you do in your local church.

goodguy thanx for your piece which is devoid of insults and sarcasism, its really a good trait and God bless you. I would love to reason with you but a little clarification

goodguy:
Speaking in tongues, to my own understanding, is not some kind of magical recitation or incantation of random syllables, as is clearly visible in the pentecostal churches of today.  They try to make one believe that they speak in "mysteries", using 1 Cor 14:2 as a back up.  But that verse, indeed, has been widely erroneously interpreted, even by the most ardent Bible-thumping folks, claiming to be born again.

Let's reason together here.  What really is the essence of speaking in tongues if the unbeliever will only end up more confused and more unconvinced? 

Anyway, I am not in any position to label anyone a liar if they claim to speak in tongues since they say they are talking out of experience.

My question: Do you believe the gift of speaking in tongues is manifest in todays church, you made a reference to those who claim to be born again, do you claim to be born again yourself because i also noticed you used the word unbeliever.

A little clarification to your post. The fact that some blab random syllables i agree occurs doesnt suggest that some do not actually genuinely receive the gift. Most times its ignorance or lack of understanding that causes same as people don't want to look like devils or be the most unspiritual so they take that route of blabbing, I didnt speak in tongues when i was ministered to the first time, some did others didn't but most importantly i didnt. I didnt for a while after that come to think of it i was always in and out of a fellowship with God. I recall that the first occassion i was in the situation you stated was when i first responded to an alter call i really knew nothing about being a christain (though i was baptized and received holy communion in the catholic church) its not an indictment on the catholic church it was an indictment on me because all i knew was if i wanted to go to church on a sunday i would ensure i go for confession on saturday to ensure i received holy communion, i never read my bible or prayed, i did nothing.

But after that occassion and when i decided to get serious with God (it was a while after the first alter call) i started asking questions some christains gave me reasons others could not, but hey it was my life and i was going to take it serious. I studied looked for tapes lucliky i had a cousin who had some christain material and i started to understand. I really wanted to know all the hullbaloo about this tongue issue, and i prayed earnestly to receive the gift not because of people but because i wanted anytin that would lead me closer to God. I always looked forward to the occassion in church and when it came still i wasnt speakin nothing, but by now i had learnt a bit, knew there was nothing wrong with me, it went on for a while and still nothing no speaking in tongues for me.

After a while i relaxed i just went ahead with my christainity (still a not too serious, up and down), i joined an activity group and nobody pressured me or made me feel less spiritual, this is again a false statement people always say, if you don't speak in tongues doesnt mean you are not born again or the holy spirit isnt in you, who convicted your heart in the first place. Second clarification to you nobody says you don't have the holy spirit or you are not a christain if you don't speak in tongue. I though knew my leader was praying for me.

Time went on and i had to go to school so i left my local church, when in school i joined a fellowship and joined the intercession group (now i was serious with my christanity), i learnt so much about christanity in school boy i could believe God for almost anything, my faith was rising so much, it was during one of our night vigils (you know as students there's so much time on our hands we used to have vigils as we liked) that when we were praying then the leader said if you don't speak in tongues this is an opportunity for you to receive the gift but after all the hussle i had being through i went on praying in my understanding i just couldnt be bothered but then he stated it again that this is an opportunity and started speaking in tongues and other members joined, i continued speaking my English but then something was different there was a leading in me to stop speaking english but what would i speak i asked myself??, i spoke my English on, again it was like i was hearing a voice telling me to stop speaking English but still i refused, then the leader came towards me and told me not to resist i should follow the leading of the holy spirit and speak what comes out, (i wasnt going to be part of the blabbing so i really had to be sure) as if he knew my doubts he told me God was my father and wanted me to have this gift so i should speak and be bold then somehow i believed him faith rose in me and i stopped speaking english, at first nothing,  but by now i knew something was different i opened my mouth and started speaking then immediately i stopped but hey it was too late i couldnt hold it back i had never felt the presence of God but this day i did, some members were screaming others were laughing and so on, wats all this about, then another member raised her voice and then started speaking in tongues she kept quiet and some one else came and interpreted was she said, issues that had being bothering me like i discussed my fears with them before coming, i knew of some messages for others facing situations i.e a friends mum was sick and the sister interpreting who was in final year and didnt know us gave a message on my friends mum and similar thins, instruction on what to do and all,  i can't recollect now it went on for a while we received messages for ourselves, we received for the group, for our fellowship, after the interpretation and all, our meeting continued i was speakin boldly now but  then i realised in my heart issues i needed to pray about for friends that had acadmic issues, some areas of my own studies, family members i would not ordinary remember and i kept praying in tongues and in my understanding it was on and on, i was praying and remembering scriptures as i prayed it was an experience i really can't forget.

Post night vigil doubts came to my heart that it wont continue it was because of the members around me and all sort of lies the devil still didnt give up, but hey when i was in my room and opened my mouth to pray english wasnt doing it, i must discover this my new gift to its fullest and i switched and no struggle i was praying in tongues smoothly when i prayed in english there was a difference now i knew my prayers had changed i knew things to pray about, things i never thot of before i started praying came to my mind inshort things were different now.

Thats my expereince so to me its not a story, it just can't be. HOW. what i do observe from people stories though is that if you pencil in your heart its not for me as in you don't seek to receive the gift, praying studying and expecting you might not receive, i used the word might beocs it doesnt follow all the time. In my walk with God i have come to learn a lot. God is God, he is the almighty.

In addition the fact you have received the gift doesnt mean you wont face challenges again or you are no longer on earth, in fact you might face issues on a different scale, the point is that you are still very HUMAN the difference is that you hear the spirit now, still if you will obey him is your will. This gift is without repenteance as the bible says but i learnt this, i didnt stop speaking in tongues when i did things that were wrong or in a time in my life totally backslided i could still speak in tongues when i prayed but i knew i was far from God. When back to God now i pray in tongues but again the fervency is different i now know that when i speak in tongues out of fellowship and in fellowship with God are two different expereinces.

In my faith i can prove my God, i pray about things and it changes in due season, i can speak to my world around and it changes again in due season, i do not listen to anyones stories yes i get inspired by testimonies but still he is my God, if my pastor wakes up tomorrow and doubts the foundation of my faith he is on his own, Jesus died for me and is alive, the holy spirit is so real and at work in my life even if someone wakes up from the dead and says otherwise he is on his own.

So back to my question @ goodwill if we will reason scriptures together i need to know what you believe in. If its different from the foundations of my faith the discussion is baseless we would not agree.

No one needs to agree with me, if you found salvation in whatever you believe in stick to it and i dare say if you have a personal expereince for yourself not someone elses near death experience or someone elses experience i doubt but then stick to it, the only thing i can do is to invite you to consider the risen christ who died for you and is alive, but thats all i can do its your choice to make.

Nella:
I'm judging u guys that claim 2 speak in toungues 4rom what i have seen of u!! i don't care if u speak in toungues in your closet or in your bathroom or just where ever!! if u guys n your Church claim 2 really speak in toungues, n if u claim that it is realy of God, then y don't u do it according to the principles of d Holy bible?!?!?!?!

well @ Buluti, do u understand now y i consider u guys fake Speaker?!?!?
U guys simply don't do it as d Bible tells you to!! once again: 4 Paul during his time on Earth laid it out plain n clearly to the future people who may recive this gift of Speaking in toungues, telling n teaching em what n what not 2 do if u speak in toungues, if u guys realy speak in toungues then u would follow this teachings, n not go doing things your own way!!

Nella, all well and good just try and read the bible properly and try and compare scripture with scripture. Theres no need to reason scriptures anymore because your mind is fixed on an error on this church order thing.

If its based on being according to the principle of the bible you make accusations then no apologies you are way far from the truth but recall as i said you don't have to agree with me, i know it is scriptural and if you say it is fake be confident that God will judge me and all those that engage in such. Dont worry for us we are well aware of the consequences of spiritual things, no need taking panadol for our headache. Develop your spiritual life and build yourself the best way you can.

However since you seem to know how the bible teaches it please oblige syrup and Mr.pataki and answer the question, how is speaking in tongues manifested in your own local church and do you speak in tongues??

Try and discover things for yourself, desire to know the mind of God for YOU and if indeed you are born again he will definately bring you into all truths.

I have read your response Nella and observed you still havent answered my question how do you know it is fake??

Initially it was based on not interpreting now if i can summarise you accurately its about speaking in tongues being a sign to the unbeliever. have you never seen where the gift of interpretation of tongues manifest? I can see where this is leading and it is not my intention to force you to believe you can maintain your stand if you so choose i just thot since you believe in tongues at least we could reason together.

I would try and address your issues, but you must not agree with me. First who says in the church (services/gatherings) there is no interpretation whereby the church is edified and a sign to unbelievers, i don't mean to sound derogatory but maybe in your church  this doesnt take place or the particular service in the "MAD CHURCH"(as you call us) you might have attended the gift was not manifested but please note this does manifest (Gift of interpretation) and it does manifest frequently particularly in outreach meetings evangelism crusades and also more frequently in smaller church gatherings such as workers meeting, cell meetings and the likes. The one who speaks in tongues interpretes or there is an interpreter from the congregation (another person interpreting the tongues of another), it does happen if you havent seen it before then maybe i should ask syrup question if it is a normal christain activity to speak in tongues in your church.

So based on your post that it is a sign to unbelievers and that paul admonished the christains to pray in 5 words of understanding rather than 1,000 words in tongues to THE CHURCH i don't see how the body of christ has contradicted this.

Brings me to my second point do you think it is when we are in church that we really speak in tongues, at best we get to speak in tongues for 5 minutes, the real speaking in tongues take place in the closet, it is a life style of the believer, the building of the christain is during his prayer time when he is individually with God thats when the christain really prays in tongues, you need to hear when a christain is praying then you would know that in church it is childs play, the tongues spoken in church cannot build a christain it is just a drop of water. Please be aware that the christain speaks more mysteries (miliion tongues) in his closet, the tongues he speaks individually in church (not to the congregation) is either when the holy spirit is leading him in prayer or worship.

In addition you claim we are all MAD well you are entitled to your opinion though the scriptures are clear. I am actually happy you do consider us MAD.

In summary please note the actual place the christain manifest the gift of speaking in tongues (maybe with or without interpretaion) i.e. to speak mysteries in tongues to God) is in the closet, the believer can also manifest the gift of interpretation in his closet to himself there is no box to these gifts and its manifestation. However, in the church service the christain can pray in his understanding and pray in tongues, he can sing in his understanding and sing in tongues (which is what then the christain should do 1 corinthians 14:15 states this), also the Gift of interpretation also manifest in church and is a sign to the unbeliever. I advised you to read the whole book of corinthians first and second please do this. The practise you are against is actaully very scriptural, very very.

@ Bobbyaf i would have loved to answer you but we would get into an unnecessary lenghty arguement, we don't believe in the same things so we would see things differently. You must not believe me you know.

Nella do you have to resort to such uncomplimentary remarks thanx for the complement though but am sure i read better than you can imagine.

Please lets put this discussion in proper perspective. Since its convenient to quickly accuse me of inventing my bible my first question to you who does the bible instruct believers to speak to. and what is praying? When i said praying in tongues i meant speaking in tongues to God albeit in the believers own personal capacity not to the whole church. I believe you just wanted to be mischevious you knew exactly what i meant.

Lets go to 1 corinthians 14. since thats where you quoted.

14.1 Pursue love and be eager for the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 14:2 For the one speaking in a tongue does not speak to people but to God, for no one understands; he is speaking mysteries by the Spirit. 1  14:3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, 2  encouragement, and consolation. 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, 3  but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 14:5 I wish you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be strengthened.

The above represents a summary of my previous post, when you pray in tongues (speaking as you would want to call it) you are not speaking to people but to God for no one understands but God. Please note the reason you are speaking in tongues in your own capacity is to build up yourself and not for the edification of the church.

syrup has quoted verse 14 (KJV) where it states my understanding is unfruitful but my spirit prayeth.

14.13 So then, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. 14:14 If 6  I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive. 14:15 What should I do? 7  I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing praises with my spirit, but I will also sing praises with my mind. 14:16 Otherwise, if you are praising God with your spirit, how can someone without the gift 8  say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 14:17 For you are certainly giving thanks well, but the other person is not strengthened. 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you, 14:19 but in the church I want to speak five words with my mind to instruct others, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

The bible in verse 13 recognises that one who speaks in tongues might not interpret and then instructs that one who speaks in tongues should pray that he interprets.

So i don't know where you get this your issue that everyone that speaks in tongues must interpret, its unscriptural and if you really value your christanity you might wish to study the whole book of 1 corinthians and pray to God for understanding that you would not be like the heathen who read the bible and can't see anything because the bible is just a book to be used in arguements and not to know the mind of God. Intent my sister is important, whats your intention of studying the word, 

My advise is based on the fact you believe in speaking in tongues.

Read on in verse 15 the bible goes on to instruct what then should i do, i would pray in the spirit (speak in unknown tongue without interpreting), i will pray in my understanding (whatever language i choose), i will sing in the spirit,

I don't know where you are located i used to have a tape by Rev. K.C. Price on this issue i can't find it but i can order it for you if you are interested, your confusion will be put to rest.

Finally on the issue of church order which is where the critics among christains come in as you have stated why should we shout and all that. My opinion is that you don't have to shout if you want to pray quietly or pray in your mind its your perogative but the bible is not against shouting, the first experience in Acts where the speaking in tongues were manifest we know they spoke out (shouting) as people could hear them.

Lets look at the scripture you quoted on church order speaking one and two.

14.26 What should you do then, brothers and sisters? 11  When you come together, each one has a song, has a lesson, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all these things be done for the strengthening of the church. 14:27 If someone speaks in a tongue, it should be two, or at the most three, one after the other, and someone must interpret. 14:28 But if there is no interpreter, he should be silent in the church. Let him speak to himself and to God. 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak and the others should evaluate what is said. 14:30 And if someone sitting down receives a revelation, the person who is speaking should conclude. 14:31 For you can all prophesy one after another, so all can learn and be encouraged. 14:32 Indeed, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets, 14:33 for God is not characterized by disorder but by peace.

The bible is clear if there be no interpreter he should be silent to the church and let him speak to himself and to God (speaking in tongues) but not to the congregation.

Nella I hope you are clearer a bit but i still go back to my question before you redirected the discussion, how do you know the fakes, you even have the stats. 99.9%, you are so convinced that it is all fake how do you know..

It is definately not based on 1 corinthains 14 because it states clearly not everyone who speaks in tongues interprets but should pray to interpret, so how do you know??

Okay Nella thanx but please note you were not obliged to answer my question, it was based on what you stated i asked the question.

The scriptures you have presented are quite clear i agree interpretation is good and it edifies in the church congregation. But maybe i am lost but the speaking in tongues being referred to here is praying in tongues, the scripture is quite clear on speaking to the whole church in tongues when anyone seeks to speak to the church in tongues there should be an interpreter but when if there is none he should keep quiet.shut up.

This is quite different from when the pastor is praying on the pulpit and decides to pray in tongues and in english and vice versa or when the individuals in a church service are praying and decide to pray in tongues SHOUTING, this has nothing to do with speaking to the whole church, speaking in tongues to the whole church is a different scenerio. If he decides then to prophesy (the interpretation part) with the thus saith the lord thingy and speaks in tongues and he cant interpret nor if there is no interpreter in the service then we have an issue he should shut up as stated by 1 corinthians.

Please note am just responding based on the scriptures you provided and based on the fact that you believe there is speaking in tongues we are just trying to ascertain which is real and fake.

So can we agree that its not becos everyone is shouting in tongues at the same time that it makes it real or fake as they are just praying in tongues, they are not speaking to the whole church they are talking to their God albeit in tongues.

@ syrup for now pls lets leave the issue of where she worships she believes in speaking in tongues.

Nella:
don't mind them, dey don't know what speaking in tongue is!! dey speak calaber mixed with d whole Nigerian launges n call it speaking in toungues!! i'm not trying 2 say that speaking in toungues dosen't exist, but as 4 this people in diz syte, n also d people i ve seen that claim 2 speak in toungue r all big time LIARS!!

So can you help us explain how to know which is fake and true. In addition how do you know the tongues by people here and people you've seen are all fake as you agree speaking in tongues exist.

James Cameron or whatever he calls himself just wants a block burster. This is all a marketing gimick to provoke controversy so that people would want to watch it.

How foolish can he be, cant he see why "The Passion of Christ" was such a success. Obviously advised by wrong unintelligent people he wants to go the way of the Davinci Code, well video clubs would categorise it in the fiction section instead of religion.

Simple minds, !! .

@ babs787 i have observed that you take it upon yourself to disprove christainity, hitherto i chose not to participate in the religion forum but the level of error and wayward doctrines i have read from you suggest to me that you are seeking the truth but don't know how to go about it. If you want to be honest with yourself, your spirit does not believe in Islam, deny it for all i care.

When it comes to knowledge some of us have it in abundance we read voraciously and have read doctrines after doctrine but in spiritual things "it is the spirit that giveth life", no volume of knowledge you acquire can reveal the deep mysteries of the kingdom to you.

At a point i listened to islam and other versions of christainity and one clear thing they all try to do is to remove the sonship of christ his death and ressurection, which is the reality of the new creation. Its such a clear strategy of the "spirits" behind all this religions to lead people astray(which really is the deveil but i don't want to go into the devil thingy), after this ommission the spirits moves to morality and confuses it with righteousness. I hear statements like i have a good heart, i don't drink, i don't smoke, i don't womanize blah, blah and i ask do you believe that jesus died for you and immediatelty the religious folks want to go into an arguement.

The righteousness we have is by faith and not of works least we should boast, we are born again christains because we believe christ is the son of God (the word made flesh and dwelt amongst men) we believe that he died for our sins and on the third day he rose again from the dead and is seated at the right hand of God the father. In short we know he is alive because he is involved in our everyday lives. We believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths these things, These are the facts of our life in christ please note its not a religion. Also it is not bigotry we are tolerant of other views and lifestyles , you can call it fanatism but hey spiritual things have to do with fanatism, am a fan of christ, so as i am of manchester united.

Have you asked yourself why islamic nations are so vehemetly against their citizens coming across the bible and against the preaching of the gospel, the UK, US and several others forexample are originaly christain states but you don't see them place such restrictions, every religion is welcomed and there is freedom to do and believe whatever you want. I dare the islamic states to do this. I ask the simple question WHY THIS FEAR OF CHRISTAINITY. You want to know the truth its because of the power in the word, the spirit that convicts sinners and reveals the fatherhood of God to man. SUCH IS THE FEAR

In summary i ask you to shun all the pretence and ask the question you really want to ask stop all this dilly dally up and down, which i suspect is why are we so convinced?? don't we think we might be wrong?? then maybe someone would ANSWER YOU,  you make our convictions stronger every day.

nigeria1:
AC or ANPP or PDP or MMMM I do not care, as long as they pay me, if they show muritala or balewa head, I am ok with it. we did Prof Jerry Gana, at least he is in PDP. You can call 1416 835 5790 to book your live call in program

At least we all know your intentions now, so much for all the born again and righteouness talk when you are just a business man looking for cheap publicity for your crapy website. I have no problems with that, i have a problem with you advertising on another person's website.

You have done more harm than good to yourself, i am not going to call no number you have been talking up side down from day one on all threads you have been on.

You cant even solve a simple matrix problem posed to you, your english is a disaster and you expect any sane person to call a number you provide, thats the greatest joke ever, you truly are insulting common sense its not too good you know.

Shocked to see this thread is still on,

ishmael pls dont answer the question, nigeria1 you asked for the challenge you cant change the rules in the middle of the game,

nigeria1 , olodo solve the problem out of shame, by now even if you dont know it you could have taught yourself, that makes you a bigger OLODO, and what was all that about, putting AC campaign pictures, nigeria1 your character is really questionable and suspect oh!!, your motives , i really wonder

A bit of figures to help. Rivers gets an average of N8 billion MONTHLY. Its the likes of Delta and Beyelsa that will get an avg of N5-6 Billion monthly.

See the link below.

http://www.fmf.gov.ng/detail.php?link=faac

@ Afam

Thanks, No problem, ENJOY

Afam:
One more thing, making a mistake is not a crime but running away from it or ignoring it when pointed out goes to show what you hold supreme in your life. I hate liars and people that side step issues when they falter all due to sometimes overbloated ego.

Hello,

@ Afam you made an obvious mistake and all i did was to correct you rather than accept it you tow a line that is ridicolous yet i hear you talk of ego. I have asked several people who watched the same video and they interpret it differently stating that the online version captures the coverage properly.

Live coverages are censored no broadcast is allowed without proper editing becos licenses could be revoked easily for such actions. If such had happened it would not go unnoticed, it would have been detected , there are strict regulations in place to ensure such distortions dont occur and it is monitored.

Well its okay lets move on, you reported your own version   but again its a public forum so it had to be corrected. I am not fighting with you incase you dont know i was just taking a laugh at your mistake and you kept getting into it deeper each time i tune you a bit, its all for fun, please dont take it to heart as the lady told you in the other post "take a chill pill" and you disappeared . so please now take a chill pill , make your contribution and enjoy your post , am not fighting , okay, you were beginning to take it way too serious

As a diversion  on your comments on me am flattered that you monitor my post   , i am not boxed into any corner nor have i been corrected, i dont post anymore becos the average IQ level of discussions on this forum is incredibly low, its not intellectually stimulating for me. A reflection of our nation, anything goes as long as you can shout,

Ego, sense, was that supposed to be a joke , oh sorry thats so funny,

Obviously i dont contribute to such threads its so clear that there was a preconceived intent to paint in a negative way the actions of isreal, manipulations.

I make comments based on the statements of the author of the thread and not the individual, your suggestion that i focus on the issues can only be achieved from the first statement which is false how can i focus on wrong facts to base a discussion, even if it is leisure and online, its unkind and wicked to focus on wrong facts how far can we go. We are wasting fun time and all waste is bad.

buluti:
You are attempting to suggest that CNN reporteres would present a report CNN considers offensive to it, then in a bid to cover it, CNN would doctor the online version. I really read a lot on this forum its amazing .

The above quote is in response to your last comment, you know when you think before making responses it helps.

I wont stand for false statements and manipulation of the truth, Still stand on clear wrong statements and since its your personal comments and statements not attributed to any other source, we know better and would treat the info accordindly.

Afam:
"on threads that you wrongly assume contain wrong statements when in the real sense it is you that is finding it difficult to understand.

The author feels justifies to attempt to convince the readers that the facts on this thread was an accurate representation of the events. The explanation that the live broadcast and by extension the reporter stated something else is ridicolous.

You are attempting to suggest that CNN reporteres would present a report CNN considers offensive to it, then in a bid to cover it, CNN would doctor the online version. I really read a lot on this forum its amazing .

This thread is an origin of a false accusation and as such has no locus standi, Isreali forces did nothing like it was stated they did. An attempt to base a debate on such would reflect bullying, bias and religious sentiments as can already be observed.

People are beginning to seek the consent of the author before making statements, how then can such a debate be objective and open to different views.

The thread was wrongly presented and i corrected same. It is clear to even the most unlearned fellow that the facts were wrongly presented.

I was shocked to read "As isreali forces Enter Muslim Holy Site In Jerusalem" knowing there had been assurances that such wont happen i proceeded to find out only to discover that the police was trying to quell a riot, then somebody presents it "As Isreali Forces" how inaccurate or far from the truth can one be.

No presentation of the facts, what led to the presence of the police?? was the construction work taking place inside the mosque?? whats the reason for the excavations?? The site is holy to all no one wants it to be tampered with. You can bring down fire from hell if you want to by ranting, truth be told, in presenting the story the way you did people would be mislead so please correct yourself.

Heres the CNN link, please everyone should read and make up their own minds. At least CNN video should be the same as CNN report.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/09/jerusalem.clashes/index.html

The author can take pride in having monopoly over insults and babaric behaviour, however we know that human psycology has shown such people are usually the most cowards, its all noise no substance. ENJOY PRESENTING WRONG FACTS.

I rest my case.

This is so untrue, please see the link below.

The said site is sacred to Jews and Moslems. It was supposed to be construction work, excavations leading to a new high way and there has been assurances that there would be no structural damage to the area by the isreali authorities. The site is sacred to BOTH PARTIES.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6346093.stm

Hello,, El-Rufai disputes the results.


http://www.vanguardngr.com/articles/2002/cover/february07/7022007/f207022007.html

Once again thank you.

Afam:
Accepting the results as totally correct or totally wrong does not make sense unless for people that think like you which does not come as a surprise though.

In statistics or generally really theres the concept of confidence intervals and confidence limits i.e. a result could lie at the 95% confidence interval meaning it has a possibility of a 5% error margin. It could also lie at 90% and undesirably at the 70% level, implying as the confidence interval falls, the error margins increases then the accuracy of the result reduces. With such high error margins such results amount to a nonsense estimation.

Given the problems expected from the conduct of a census a certain margin of error is expected but when the margin of error gets too high, it implies that the obtained results (census result as presented by NPC) lies far away from the actual results which is undesirable. When things are done properly a sample of those that stated they were not counted should be collected and also estimates of areas that had unrest should have been collected, in addition certain other samples from other estimators (e.g. UN estimates and certain other known world statistical agencies) are also considered then estimates of the actual results are arrived at. The confidence interval and and margin error expected are then stated.

Anyone could conduct a test really as long as it follows statistical principles, the results are always the same such results could be justified in real terms. When 10 independent agencies from Nigeria and outside estimate a population and arrive at the same results using different samples and scenerios, then it is could be concluded that the actual population lies within that results. Its a very complex process anyway its based on such test that some of us rejected the results and not stating that it was not "entirely correct" doctored or meaningful reason to disagree, the results just lie too far away from the actual result so it amounted to a "nonsense estimate".

@ Afam your quote.
"The statement you highlighted above clearly shows that you no know shame when desperately trying to make a point. Keep fooling yourself while imagining you are on top what you are discussing".

The above comments from you is quite unfortunate if thats the way you feel i have no sympathy. I would not give room to any form of provocation as suggested becos i would not degenerate or codescend to such a level and henceforth i would ignore you in this forum since it is your way of critically looking at issues. I wish you the best.

Being sarcastic and insulting are two different things. I could use generic words such as "some" or quote the person disagreeing with his statement in a simple manner but singling out someone with the word YOU and insulting the person in my opinion is barbaric and has no room in a civil society, i keep my distance from such individuals as their conduct and behaviour cannot be considered to be civil, its such behaviour thats responsible for the continued war and outrage in Africa. With a good command of English an individual could pass messages across in a very subtle but obvious and effective way.

Thank you.

Afam:
My arguement has been based on the fact that people believe they should disregard the census result in favour of comments like "Kano is a desert", "Satellite picture shows this", "everybody knows that the census result was doctored" etc.

Congratulations on accepting a result you call "doctored".

Afam:
I am sure that from the very first post to the last my position on this thread has been steady and consistent. I wish I could say the same thing about you.

So Kano results were doctored, i didnt know that was what you've been trying to tell us all this while in a steady and consistent way.

I am happy you cant say the same for me, i dont want to be associated with such consistent statements.

Thanx.

Mr. Afam,

Please for the avoidance of doubts i dont need you to agree with me on the issue of the census result, i am well learned in the field of demography, migration and populations so i understand in deep terms what i talk about. In your opinion you need credible proof oh sorry "meaningful reason" take your time to look for it,

Again refer to my earlier post if Lagos comes up with a ridiculous figure it wont make it right, the credibility of the process has already been undermined.

Afam:
Thanks for the advice but unlike you I cannot stake even N1 for the census result but I will not disagree with it based on the vague arguements put forward by some people on this forum.
Put differently, while the census results may not be entirely correct, I have not seen any meaningful reason why it should be discarded especially when no altenative is available.

HELLO!!!! , "unlike me i cannot stake N1" am really lost here, am i the one that can stake 1 kobo,

You waste all the time in the world arguing on a position you dont believe in, "what do you mean by entirely correct", based on your previous position i thot people counted and thats the only meaningful reason, the results are sacrosant , abi,

I dont understand this your new position, correct me if am wrong, you believe the result is not "entirely correct" but at the same time need meaningful reason to yourself to acknowledge its wrong,

Geezzz.,,, Its  dishonorable to try and shift your position crafitily this way, i can see through this and know exactly where it is going and i wont be part of such, next it would be i said this but meant this, i didnt say this and so on, I dont think i would take you serious on this forum as you are exhibiting some undesirable qualities.

My advice to you please be principled, if you believe something is wrong stand on it, its a matter of conscience, you dont need a reason to justify a wrong thing, God   so sad

In summary its one of the issues that divide us as a nation, next it would be religion. I wont join in that which divides us as a nation if it has been declared an act in Nigeria, passed into law  (HAS IT REALLY), so be it, Its a democracy i disagree and hold my reservations strongly against the results and if "within the confines of the law" i can make a contribution to change it i would.

I believe in constituted authority and if its been passed into law, then the debate is over, it doesnt mean we cant discuss it BUT WE NEED TO MOVE ON, and discuss what can be put in place for all to agree the next one would be correct, if those that swore to uphold the law to be fair to all, have agreed with it, i leave it to their consciene if they have one, prosterity would judge,

As i said earlier its a matter of conscience, we should stand on principles and ideals, which i clearly see now is in short supply in my country.

Clearly a lot of us dont know what protocol is all about.

Assuming the OBJ factor is a hoax i cant imagine how we would think such an appointment would be made without certain representations and consents.

I guess if you work in a company and you need to be seconded the approval of your MD is not required. What Logic.

Lets not waste time in that which divides us, the result have been presented and approved.

Let our conscience judge us. Its too small an issue to concentrate a debate on, nothing will change, things wont improve for the ordinary Northerner on the streets, i pray it does. If its this results that would bring better conditions to the masees of the north and improve their productivity, then good.

Our conscience remains the judge, we know what is right and wrong. Its time to move on as Nigerians, lets learn to live with our differences.

@ Afam, its time YOU take it easy too, you are becoming obsessed like Nigeria1. The results have been presented and approved abi, all has been said,

Let our conscience be the judge, to each one ,,,our conscience should judge us.

Its an issue of individual principles and ideals.

@ Nigeria1, please do you read at all.

Take this census thingy easy oh. No need calling anyone a bastard.

Cool down,

@ Terracotta thanx for providing info on the new UN VP but as you noted years of international experience. This is the factor it seems you are removing. If you noted he is a seasoned technocrat working in the World Bank since 1978 just as Okojo joined through the Junior professional or something. The president of the World Bank in case you haven't noted is a political office appointed by the US and perhaps maybe a US citizen becos they are the largest donor to the fund.

You noted her nomination as UN VP was based on her success as Finance Minister during the debt work out, but would Adamu Ciroma have achieved the debt work out that she achieved. I argue the presentation of issues matter and she was able to present our issue in the light the Breton Woods institution understand i.e. being a HIPC nation.

If you noticed I am not in argument about OBJ's performance though in my opinion the govt has left much to be desired, I agree that the economic reform should be ascribed to OBJ becos he allowed it, but that's not enof to give him a pass mark.

I disagree with your summary that simplifies all issues into being Nigerian becos it was the international media that started the speculation in the first place. The discussion is about the possibility of OBJ affecting the chances of OKonjo and in arriving at that we have tried to consider her fame with or without the Finance office and the possibility of the personality of OBJ affecting the outcome, its a debate.

@ Afam

Well clearly you make a lot of mistakes.     its a good virtue to acknowledge mistakes.

Clearly your question to the World Bank might have been a political question becos issues especially pertaining to these bilateral institutions and their activities centre around the same principles. However  its in those 1 million answers to questions that you broden you horizon on subjects, not just looking at things from one point of view.

On Okonjo: Am not argueing that being Finance Minister helped her profile, i agree, but my point is that it was her performance as Finance Minister. She already commanded good respect  in international finance circles and this contributed to her success particulalry in the debt work out and thats what adconline was stating.

I agree being Finance Minister was relevant to her fame at home and abroad, however more importantly to the international world was her fame as UN VP, not her fame as Finance Minister. Taking on a political office which she performed in helped and made her more visibly at home and abroad but not in the face of those that take decisions, cos they already knew her.

Same on Dick , Visibility to who to the world or to those in diplomatic circles.

I just quoted you on the power supply, i have no issues with what you use to make it up or how you source it, i said it was commendable and perhaps if you can help with the technical knowledge it might help others here, especially if it might not require huge capital to install, But i noted that having 80% supply from NEPA (or any other source) definately affects your views on the current govt's policy,  so you see no logic in disagreeing with a performing govt and why people are complaining.

The link you provided is just a confirmation of the structures i stated earlier, so i dont see the relevance. It would be nice for you to read through.

For clarification and avoidance of doubt my aim is no way to co-erce you into my views but to provide sunstantial theoretical principles for you to see things from a larger perspective and to understand rational behaviour, particularly becos i notice you waive a lot of things as sentiments and irrationality a lot. I seek for you to understand sentiments how it is arrived at and how it can be corrected.

I do respect your views and the views of others in here, i believe strongly in diversity and the strenght thereoff. I believe these difference could make us stronger and wealther as a people and as a Nation if we can harness it. I believe it would be bettter if we all seek to understand ourselves and explain our views clearly.

I believe in moving my position in the face of superior arguements based on theoretical and sound principles but not when issues are simplified in a manner that shows clearly limited understanding.

@ Afam

As a diversion I would want to address certain erroneous statements you made in your earlier post that I chose to ignore. You said the IMF wanted to do business with Nigeria and that you were involved in a life debate where they couldn’t answer your questions.

ASK ME NOW I WILL ANSWER IT FOR YOU IF YOU CAN REMEMBER.

Let me stay with the IMF since it seems you want to talk about IMF. The IMF is an international organization that consists of countries it started small with about 40 members and has grown to over 100 countries. Basically as the name applies it is a fund, Member countries contribute to the pool, so based on the volume of contribution you are allocated executive and voting powers. The functions of the IMF has been quite clear and hasn’t change, it lends to nations that have negative balance of payments, provides technical assistance while striving to monitor the loans providing certain guidelines which has come to be known as the "IMF conditionality". I think there are about 14 conditionalities. It is these conditionalities that many frown at as it is a set of rules that countries must follow if they want to access the funds.

The debate is that the rules are too tight for the developing world as it commands them to open their markets removing barriers to trade and certain other macro economic policies. It is actually the Globalization debate, critics state that these policies might do more harm than good on the developing nations though they recognise it might put restriction on govt and frivolous spending. It’s an academic debate and I won’t bore you.


The point is that countries are not forced to access the funds if you join or access the funds then obey the conditionalities. So please the statement that they wanted to do business with Nigeria is erroneous they do business with all member nations.

You stated you were involved in a debate on why the IMF has had little impact on the developing world and concluded as if they had something to hide, yes the conditionalities particularly the removal of tariffs and other trade barriers might work against the developing world, it is not an evil in its totality. It’s the developing countries govts that are using the funds for white elephant projects.

Please I wait for the questions you posed to the IMF, with my little knowledge I will try to provide an answer.

Another diversion on Dick Cheney i was again correcting a misrepresentation which you still stand on. This guy has been in involved in world politics serving as deputy in the office of the president he is involved in diplomatic maneuverings round the world. The facts that the press does not celebrate those behind the scene and as such people that follow issues on the surface might not know them doesn’t mean they’ve not been around. So I am not seeing the world in the eyes of the US, I am correcting the false statement that Dick Cheney was not well known in international circle.

@ Afam,

You still are making very wrong and misleading comments.

Again i correct your false statement she was not VP IMF she was VP World Bank Group, whether the president is away or not she is in charge of the day to day activities of the secretariat, please i hope u get this. She takes decisions whether he is around or not and if he has to be absent maybe on vacation, there is a proper delegation in place. The responsibilities can be delegated to her, the office of the VP World Bank Group is not a charade or ceremonious position as you may want to think. Its not her job schedule am bring in am correcting wrong statements.

When you say countries that had business with the World Bank Group it shows how little you might understand the subject, please note not the IMF, it seems you really dont understand the functions of billateral institutions e.g. IBRD was in charge of building post war Europe and now its mission is much wider not only in Europe but to fund developmental projects round the world, hence the name WORLD BANK GROUP.

Please note i am in no way advocating for things to be done wrongly, i only provided an explanation of human behaviour staing that Nigerians are actually acting logical in the manner they act. The conspiracy theories are enhanced and encouraged in the environment and as such people make conclusions on their own. Statement like we act illigical, irrational and "cult of personality" are false and wrong statements.

Its good you have 80% supply of electricity and have a system in place that guarantees uninterupted power supply really thats good and commendable, but that might suggest why you are really not in touch with the policies of the govt.

On the average majority of Nigeria cannot boast of 40% constant electricity and you have 100% so definately you would agree with the statements and statistics of the govt and see no logic in people complaining. Its logical behaviour you are exhibiting.

@ Afam

I thank you for your response but a lot of your statements in my opinion are based on wrong facts and are so incorrect and false.

Afam:
1. Iweala was brought to limelight by virtue of her position as the finance minister in Nigeria not based on the VP of a part of IMF. She did not have enough authority to take decisions concerning the IMF assmuning the IMF President was away. Such positions are strategically given to people who can influence certain decisions mainly based on country of origin.

That is so untrue as it has been rightly pointed by Mckren why is Adamu Ciroma and other previous Finance mininster not in Global limelight. She previously had Global respect in the international finance community, what you should say is that her performance as Finance Minister and Head of Economic Team in Nigeria improved that image she previously had. It was her performance, and previous work experience and not being Finance Minister.

Afam:
1. Iweala was brought to limelight by virtue of her position as the finance minister in Nigeria not based on the VP of a part of IMF. She did not have enough authority to take decisions concerning the IMF assmuning the IMF President was away. Such positions are strategically given to people who can influence certain decisions mainly based on country of origin.

2. IMF in itself is a failed institution with so many failed policies in many countries. There are countries that have even decided not to honour any debt payments because the IMF grant loans and insist on implementing the projects in such a way that the projects will never recoup the money spent.

The two statements you made above are so far from the truth, you need to understand how these bilateral organisations operate.

Okojo Iweala was not VP of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) as you wrongly stated. She was VP and corporate secretary of the World Bank Group, which consist of 5 institutions, the IBRD, IFC, ICSID, MIGA and the IDA. In her position as VP she ran the adminstrative functions of the world bank group co-ordianting the activities of these five institutions while being the secretary to the board. Its similar to the role of the VP of the UN, the responsibilities involve running the administrative day to day functions and activities thereby not bugging down the Sec. Gen and in the World Bank the president unnecessarily, this was what made her attractive for the position of UN VP and not being Finance Minister, she had relevant previous work experience.

Please the statements you made are really misleading

Your summary that she did not have authority and that it was based on country of origin is about the most incorrect statment i have read about these institutions. Please note her country of origin had nothing to do with her been VP of the World Bank Group it was based purely on merit.

Another False statement is on Dick Cheney. Please note Dick Cheney has been in American politics since 1974 and in no way did VP of the US bring him to limelight read about him in the link below. He has served under at least 4 US presidents.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/vicepresident/

Finally on your conclusion on why Okonjo Iweala was dropped as head of Economic team and resigned i wont be quick to comment,  but why was it few months later OBJ realised there would be authority issues with the Foreign affairs minister leading the economic team. Read about Okonlo-Iweala in the link below. Though its wikipedia it would provide some information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngozi_Okonjo-Iweala

I have been reading your statements and that of Terracota keenly to really ascertain the level of knowledge you use in making conclusions. Its clear you are not in the social sciences and i quite appreciate that, but still education has imbibed knowledge and understanding in us all.

On the average Nigerians are rational people, you need to understand human behaviour and the socio-political environment of Nigeria to understand why people jump into conclusions. As a nation there is a history of mistrust and irresponsibility on the part of the political class. Little events and opportunities that could have built credibility on the system have always been thrown away e.g. till date has anyone been convicted of the killings of  Dele-Giwa, Kudirat Abiola, Bola Ige and other political killings. When you dont convict and put to rest such things, what the govt has achieved is fuelling this conspiracy theories passing it on to generations yet unborn. Is there a story on who killed murutala no we know its Dimkha and that story has been put to rest forever.

The human mind recollects and acts in the sub-conscious thereby developing a personality. Your personality is a function of a lot of things and there are few theories (Sigmund Freud is a good read on this)  "Psychoanalysts along with humanists, believe that the complex inner world of the individual must be taken into account when observing their behaviors" quote from Freud. The behaviour of Nigerians are no differenct form others in the world, its a function of our environment, culture, childhood, perceptions etc, a lot of factors are at work.

Whilst am in no way supporting irrational and quick conclusions, i do understand where the Nigerian people are coming from, its actually "logical behaviour". It is desirable to trust the govt and not run into conclusions but when the very establishments are run in secrecy and dishonesty the result you get is people always making quick conclusions and conspiracy theories.

You guys hold on to facts from the govt it is good and your personality type might be desirable in our environment but it is in no way better than the other personality types.

I really wont stand and watch the Nigerian people criticised unnecessarily becos we are not patient to understand behavioural traits and try to understand why Nigerians act the way they do, please lets stop insulting ourselves in this forum and else where making statements that we are irrational, illogical etc.

All over the world the behavioural traits are similar, people respond to their envirnments in different way. In a society run properly and to the best of their abilitieis, people understand the shortcomings and wait for outcomes of inquiry and the court process before jumping to conclusions, but when the court process never end and the people perceive the societies are not run to the best of the human resources abilities available, we get what we currently have.